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THE
Parliamentary Regifter ;
HISTORY
OF THE
PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES
OF THE
HOUSE OF LORDS
DURING THE FIRST SESSION }
AND OF THE
HOUSE OF COMMONS
DURING THE SECOND SESSION
OP THE
Fourteenth Parliament of Great Britain.
CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF
The most mterefting Speeches, Motions, Bills, Protes«|
Evidence, &c. with such PETmoNs to the King, as
xelate to the Proceedings of the House ; and a
List of the Acts passed in this Session.
IN SEVENTEEN VOLUMES.
LONDON:
Reprinted for John StocjcdaXtE, Piccadilly ^
J,, Walmr ; R. Lea, & J. Nunn.
1802.
9r 'T. OiUtt, ^iXVSte^ttt ^<^t^.
i - •
.iP
: "' 7. T T II E -
H I S T O R Y
OF THl
DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS
O F T H E
HOUSE OF L 0,R D S,
During the FIRST SESSION of the
Fourteenth Parliament of Creat-Britaln*
THIS session was opened by the King, wjth a speech from
the throne. The speech being already printed in the
debates of the House of Commons pf this session, it is un-
necessary to repeat it.
iViw^wAer 30, 1774,
The Earl of HiUshorough moved. That an humble address
be prcsehted to his Majesty, to return his Majesty the thanks
of this House for his most gracious sj^eech from the throne.
To declare our abhorrence and detestation of the daring spi»
rit of resistance and disobedience to the laws, which so strotig*
ly prevails in the province of Massachuset's Bay, and of the
unwarrantable attiempts in that and other provinces of
America, to obstruct, by unlawful combinations, the trade of
this kingdom.
To return his Majesty our humble thanks for having been
pleased to communicate to us, that he has taken such mea^
sures, and given such orders as his Majesty hath judged most
proper and effectual for the protection and security of the
commerce of his. Majesty's subjects, and for carrying into exe-
cution the laws, which were passed in the last session of the
hte parliament, relative to the province of the Massachuset's
Bay.
To express our entire satisfa^on in his Majesty's firm and'
steadfast resolution to continue to support the supreme au-
thority of the legislature over all the dominions of his crown,
and to give his Majesty the strongest assurances that we will
Vol. II. B OasJ^lx^n
2 PARLIAMENTARY A.1774-
chearfuUy co-operate in all such measures, as shall be neces-
sary to maiiitain the dx^ty, safety, and wdfare of the British
empire.
That as this nation cannot be unconcerned in the common
interest of Europe, we have the greatest satisfaction in being
acquainted with the conclusion of the peace between Russia
tmd the Porter that we confide in his Majesty's endeavours
to prevent, as far 2^ possible, the breaking out of fresh distur-
bances; and from the assurances given to his Majesty by
other powers, we have the pleasing expectation that nothing
is likely to intervene that may interrupt the present happy
' trinquillity in Europe.
Th^t it is no less our duty than our inclination to proceed
with temper and unanimity in our ddiberations and resolu-
tions, and to inculcate, by our example, a due reverence fojr
the laws, and a just sense of the excellency of our constitu*
tion; and impressed with the deepest gratitude for the many
blessings we have enjoyed during the course of his Majesty's
reign, to testify with unaffected zeal at this conjuncture our
inviolable fidelity to his Majesty, and our serious attention
to the public welfare.
This motion was seconded by the JEarl of Buckinghamshire.
The Duke of Richmo7id moved, ** That an amendment be
made to the said motion, by inserting after the word throne^
strtlie end of the first paragraph, these words:
To desire his Majesty would be graciously pleased to give
direction for an early communication of the accounts which
have been received concerning the state of the colonies, that
we may not proceed to the consideration of this most critical
and im^rtant matter, but upon the fullest information; and
when we are thus informed, we shall, without delay, apply
ourselves with the most earnest and serious zeal, to such mea-
sures as shall tend to secure the honour of his Majesty's crown,
the true dignity of the mother country, and the harmony and
happiness of all his Majesty's dominions.
Which being objected to, after 'some debate, the question
was put. Whether these words shall be inserted in the said
motion? It was resolved in the negative. Contents 13
Non-Contents 63.
Dissentient^
Because we cannot agree to commit ourselves with the care-
less facility of a common address of eomj^iment, in eypreg-
sions, which may lead to measures in the event fatal to the
lives, properties, and liberties of a very great part of our fel-
low subjects.
A.I77A- ? P ^ St Vt T :E; S.^ * 3
' -W^-CiMacelvevthat an address upon suck objc^sas are. be*
/oire Ai% and at aadi a time a& this^ must necessarily have a
confiderable influence upon our future proceedings; and must
impress the public. wStk an idea of tl^ general spirit of the
measures-.itriiichwe mean to support,
Whate«r me^hocLi.we shall think it adviseable to pursue,
either in support of the mere authority of parliament, which
tcextks to be the sole consideration with, some, or for reconciling
that authority with the peace and satisfaction of the whole
'empire^ whithlias ever, been -our constat and invariabiie ob-
ject, it will certjiinly add to the weight and efficacy of crar
proceedings, if they appear the result of. jfiill information,
'imature" deliberation, and temperate enquiry.
. No materials. for such an enquiry have been laid before
, us; nor have any such been so much as promised m the speech
from the throne^ or even in any verbal assurance from minis-
ters.
In this situation we are called upon to mak£ an address, ar»
bitrarily imiposing qualities and descriptions upon acts done
in the colonies, of the true nature and just extent of which
we are as yet in a great measure unapprized ; a procedure
-which i^pe)«urs to us by no means consonant to that purity
whicl^ We ought ever to preserve in our judicial, and to that
caution which ought to guide us in cur. deliberative capacity.
2. Because this address dbes, in eflect, imply an appi^ba-
tion of the system adopted with regard to the colonies in the
last parliament. This unfortunate system, conceived vnth so
little prudence, and pursued with so little teinpcr, consistency,
or foresight, we were in hopes, would be at length abandoned,
from an experience of the mischiefs which it has produced, in
proportion to the time in which it was continued^ and the
diligence with which it has been pursued; a system which has
created the utmost confuiion in the colonies, withoiit any
rational hope of advantage to the revenue, and witli
certain detriment to the commerce of the mother country*
And it affords us a melancholy prospect of the disposition of
Lords in the pi'es^nt parliament, when we sec the lioiise, un.^
der the pressure of so severe and uniform an experience, again
• ready, without any enquiry, to countenance, if not to adopt,
the spirit of the former fatal proceedings.'
But whatever nwy be the mischievous defigns, or the in#
considerate temerityj which leads others to this desperate
course, we wish to be known as persons who have ever dis-
approved of measures so pernicious in their past effects, and
their future tendency, and who are not in haste^ wvtl\ou.t
li 7. ^x^^xr^
4 PARLIAMENTARY- A.1774^
enquiry or information, to commit ourselves in d^hrations
which may precipitate our couhti^ into all the calamities of a
xivil war*
. Richmond^ Torringtonj
Portland) Ponsonby,
Rockinghan^, Wycombe,
Stamford, pamden.
Stanhope,
December I.
" The Lords waited upon the Kin^ with their address, to
which his Majesty gaye the following answer :
My Lords,
I thank you for your affectionate assurances of duty and
loyalty. The zeal you express for the support of the supreme
authority of the legislature, which 1 3hall constantly maintain|
is very agreeable to me; and your resolution to proceed with
temper and unanimity in your deliberations, gives me the
greatest satisfaction, as it corresponds with the hearty concern
I shall ever have for the true interests pf ail my people,
Adjourned to December 6.
December 6.
The Peers having thought proper to clear theii? House on
the loth of December 1770, [See the Commons Debates of
that year, page 79 to 84, 87, and 93 to 96] and not to admit
cv«i members of the House of Commons since that time,
except tp deliver bills, and upon those occasions ordered them
to withdraw immediately* The Commons in return [See the
Commons D^ates above referred to] excluded the Peers from
their House; and several inconveniences having happened
from thi^ har& treatment.
Lord Lyttleton moved to Rescind the order excluding the
members of the House of Commons, with a view to restore
a friendly communication between the two Houses. There
. was some debate; the House divided, for the motion 28,
against it 36.
December 15.
Lord Lytileton moved, that the order excluding members of
the House of Commons might be dispensed with.
The Duke of Manchester seconded tl^e ^lotipn. His Grace
said, he particularly pressed it at thjs time, as a point to be
. desired even by ministers, that the public might be informed of
the grounds on whicl^ they proceed in regard to the measures to
Be pursued respecting America, whose interests are so in-
terwoven with those of "Great-Britain, that the attention of
the people of this country cannot be too much awakened "at
a: 177). D E B A T E ' S. ' /j
this truly important crisis. His Grace added, that he wished
not only to admit the members of the House of Commons^
but the Scotch and Irish Peers^ and stkch other persons as
shall be introduced by a Peer^ eacl\ Peer to bring in one per-*
son.
The Lord CbaHcelbr acqu^ted the Lordsy that he always
looked upon himself as a servant of the House, whose duty it
was to see their <Mrders enforced; but that as it seemed to be
thf desire of many to relax their standing, order in this pointy
hit thot^ht the civility due from one Lord to another ^ould
induce die House to come into the proposal) which was ac*
cordingly agreed to without further debate.
December i6.
Nothing material. Adjourned to December 19. No do-
bates.
December ^2.
Adjourned to January 20, 1775.
January 2o^lJJS.
This day the Earl of Dartmouth presented to the House co«
pies of a great number of letters and papers from his Majes«
ty's governors in America. [Copies of^the same letters and
papers were presented to the House of Commons, and the
reader will find them in page 3 1, &c. of the Proceedings and
Debates of that House ; with all the subsequent letters aj^d
papers, as they were presented from time to time, during the
session.]
The Earl of Chatham. His Lordship began with censur-
ing an eight weeks delay of communicating these papers,
[alluding that the papers might have been laid before the
House at the be^innm^ of the session] and the continuance of
ministers ddudmg this country^ with misrepresentations of
the colonies. He shewed, that the sudden dissolution of par*
liamcnt was upon that principle, of deceiving the peopfeof
England; every borough m the kingdom laboukring under the
old delusion.
There were, he said, two things which ministry laboured to
deceive thepeople in, and had persuaded them to ; first, that
it was an affiur of Boston only, and that the very appearance of
one single regiment there would quiet eviery thing.
He had foretold the falsehood of both; he was conversant
with that country more, more years than perhaps any man; he
knew the cause of Boston would be made the cause of Ame-
rica; he knew the mode of the milicary would not be eflSw*
tuaL
6 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
The manntt* of j^oceeding against Bostoni 'was i prpsarip^* .
tion.of a people, unheard J — unheard in any; coikt^ either in
the coxnmon courts of justice, or the higher, of paffliainecit, in
both of which^ evidence of facts are stated' in proof of cri-
minality; but the Americans were denied to be heard:, tha
people of Americff condemned, andnpt heard^' haVe a rij^ tQ
resist.
. By fwhosc advice vindi<itiTe councils were* -pursued;; by
whose advice false repi'^sentatiofis were tnadse^ by whosb |d^
vice malice and iM-will were maf^pi'inciple^ oP^pternifig a
free peoplci-i-^all these are questions that will -be' asked ;'h4
means no persona}: chafge on any maifi farther than his mis-
doings call fon
. Thetc- QHght tft. fee. sOfhe instant prodfeediftg- towards '* settle-
ment before the meeting of the delegates ; his object was td
put his foot on the threslitWof peaCfe, to shew an intention of
reconciling; he will, unless- he is. fixod to a^sick^)c<i| he trill
attend this business throughout^ till he sees America obtain
what hie thinks satisfaction for her injurleb; still atteiitive that
it shaH own the supremacy of this" dountj^y. .
It would be his advice to his Majesty cb tstid this quarrel^
the soonest possible ; his repose was their duty ^ who by mis-
advice had f^nted' the thorn in his side^ by a contest with a
people determined oA their purpose. . j
Wishes^to ofibr Wmself, meari as he is^but he has a plaa^^
ti plan of a settlement ;. solid, honourable, and lasting.
Ameri(!a' means only to have safety in'pi^perty; and per-
sonal liberty* Those, and those only were her object; inde-
pendency was falsely charged on her^ 1
He disclaims all metaphysical distinctions.
The declaratory act leaves you a rtghi to take their money
when you -pkase.
He means to meddle with n& man's opinion^; and leaving all
men to> follow th? piaori^of their own opinionlf; of former pro-
fessions, his plan is to establish for the American an' uirtqui-i
Tocalj express fight of riot having his property, laken from him
but by hiB own assembly. ■ ■' :i
'- Eight weeks delay admits no. further hesitation, no not of
a moment-, the thing may be oVcr; a dn)p of blood raiders it
immedkabile vi/Inm.
' Whether it cai^ ever now be a true reconciliation, must be
Qwing to the full compensation that America shaU receive.
Repeal the mutual UUwill that subsists, for it is not the repeal,
of a little act of parliament that will work peace.^ Will the.
JiepeaJofa bit of parclmiCiU avail? Will, -think you, three
A. 1775. DEBATES. 7
milliQns. of people in arms \ie satisfied by such a repeal Mt
must be » repeal on a principle of justice. There must be no
procrastinatipn; you are to a moment — ^now — instantancopsly:
— ^Every hour, that a beginning is not made towards soften*
mgf towards healing! the very news of which might ^ork
wonders— -endangers the fixed liberty of America, a^d the ho*
nour of the mother country.
Thesuccess and permanent efifect of the best measures may
arise firom mutual good-wilL :.,-..
His motion is part of a plan; and he begins with a .proof of '
good-will. — ^His motion is *^ to address ihe King to remci^e
** the fcnxes from the town of Boston."
His lordship was lavish in his praise of the coE^ressi'fis
more wise and more prudent thm the meeting ofanci<¥|it
Greece. He mentioned ThucydideSf 'With ** your lordships'
*^ have read Thucydides;" he meationsnpthing of apcient
story more honourable^ more respectable^ than. tlM^. despised
meeting.
The congress is treated harshly. He wishes we^ would imi-
tateHheir temper; — firm indeed, if you please— <4>ut that c;on-
gresswasconducted with temper and moderation. I wish -our
House of Commons as freely and imcomiptly chosen.
The (proceedings from; hence arose from ignorance of the
circumstances of that country. The idoa of coercion by
troops, where they were not the natural resource, was wanton
and idle.
Anger was your motive in all you did — *^ What ! shall
" America presume to be free ? — don't hear them, chastise
" them." This was your language, castigat auditqu^ — the
severest judge, though he chastises, also hears the party* j
All the mischief has arisen from your anger; from yow not
adapting your means to your ends; troops and violence .Wei^
ill means to answer the ends of peace. > /
I understand government is not altogether satisified with
the commander of your troops; he has not been quick enough
to shed blood; his moderation is ricUciiled; but^ I know
that gentleman, an officer of long service, has acted pru-
dently ; it was vrant of wisdom to plaqe an army ther^-^I
have heard of armies of observation, but this is an army ^f
irritation.
In the civil war of Paris, where those great men, the Prince
of Conde and Marshal Turenne, commanded the t^o par-
ties — Marshal Turenne was said often to have been near the
Prince; — ^The Queen was angry; she did not see why, when
he was so near^ke Prince, he sKouid lyo^ tak& ):i¥isk\ ^nr^
3J ^ ^^^ew^^s
8 PARLIAMENTARY A; 1775.
ofibndedy and with some anger asked ? ^ ^uand votts itiez si
^[ pris, ponrqu^ n^avez-'vous pas pris U Prince?** That great
officer who knew his bilsiness, answered'', coolly, ** yawds
** peur, Madamfi qtiil ne tn^eut prit**
* The ministry tell you, that the Americans will not abide by
• the congress; they are tired of the association; — true, many of
the merchants may be; — but it does not now depend on the
.merchants; nor do the accounts come even from the principal
, merchants^ but from the runners for minbtry. But were the
dissati^fiittion among the merchants ever so large, the account
U nowiy eonformable to the nature of America.
. The nation of America, who have the virtues of the people
: they Kpmag (tottif will not be slaves. Their language is, If
trade -and slavery arc companions, we quit the track; let trade
and dafvdty go where they will, they arc not for us.
Your Mger represents them as refractory and ungrateful,
in not submitting to the parent they sprung from ; but they
are in truth grown an accession of strength to this country;
they kn^w uicir importance; they wish .to continue their
utility to you; but though they may be sick .of the associa-
tion, those sons of the eaxth will never be dissuaded frx>m their
association* ^
After the repeal of the stamp act^ two years after, I was in
the country an hundred miles oflT; a gentleman who knew the
country, told me, that if regiments had landed at that time,
and ships had been sent to destroy the towns, they had come
to a resolution to retire back into the countryi.— It is a fact— -
a noble Lord smiles ; if I were to mention the gentleman's
name, it would not increase his smile.
I wish the young gentlemen of our time wotdd imitate those
Americans that are misrepresented to them; I wish they would
> imitate their frugality; I wish they would imitate that liberty
which the Americans love better than life ; imitate that cou-
rage which a love of liberty produces. -
One word more. I will send my plan, if the state of a mi-
serable constitution stretches me on a sick4)ed. It is to put
an end^ to the quarrel. " What before you know whether
*• they will come to terms?" Yes, let my expectations be what
they will, I should recall the troops; it partakes of a nullity to
accept submission under the itiflucnce of arms.
' I foretel, " these bills must be repealed;" — I submit to be
called an idcot if they are not; — ^three miiiioiis of men ready
to arm, and talk of forcing them!
There may be dangerous men and dangcroiis councils, who
KTOuId Instil hstd doctrines; advise the enstavin^. of America;
- — ' - \\ve^
A. 1775. DEBATES.' 9
they might not endanger the crown perhaps, but they woukl
render it not worth the wearing.
The cause of America is alliod to every true Whig, They
will not bear the enslaving America. Some Whigs may lore
their fortmies better than their principles ; but the bodyo^
Whigs will join; they will -not enslave America^ The
whole Irish nation^ all the true English Whigs^ the whole
nation of America, these combined make many milltotu of
Whigs, averse to the system. France has her fiill attention
upon you ', war is at your door ; carryiog a questioil heah^
mil not save your country in such tetremities.
This being the state of things, my advice is, to proceed to
lailay heats; I. would at the mstant begin, and do somtldmig
towards allaying and softening resentment.-
My motion^ you see, respects the army, and their dangerons
situation* Not to undervalue general Gage, who has served
with crcdit,-«*«he acts upon his instxitctions ; if he has^ not
been aiiot enough to shol blood ) '
Non dinacare quam fHncere maluitj
And he jucked welL The Americstns too have acted with a
-prudence and moderation, that Ind been worthy of our imi-
tation, were we wise ;*-to their moderation it is owing, that
our troops have so long remained in safety.
Mal«administration has prun its line*-it has not a move left
— it is a checb-mate.
. Forty thousand men are not adequsvte to the idea of sub-
duing them to your taxation. Taxation exists only in repre-
sentation ; take them to your heart, who knows what their
generosity may effect ?
I am not to be understood as meaning a naked, uncondi-
tioned repeal ; no, I would maintain the superiority of this
country at all events.
But your are anxious who. shall disarm first. That great
poet, and perhaps a wiser and greater politician than, ever he
was a poet, has given you wisest council, follow it,
Tuque prior, tu parce ; gfnus qui ducts Olympo*
Projice tela manu* '----•--.
Who is the man who will own this system of force a^
practicable ?
He then justly censured the folly of pursuing a system diat
was owned to be impracticable.
. His Lordship's motion was, ^' That an humble address be
presented to his Majesty, most humbly to advise and beseech
his Majesty,, that, in order to open the ways towards an Happy
jBettlemmt of .the dangerous, troubles ui ^xMpc\c^'->C|!4 W-
to PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
giiming to allay ferments and soften animosities there ; and,.
above all> for preventing in the mean time, any sudden and
fatal catastrophe at Boston, now sufiFering onder the daily
irrita,tion of an army before their eyfs» jposted in their toTtm,-
it may; graciously please his Majesty, tbzt immediate orders
may be dispatched to general Giage for removing his Majesty^s
forces from the towil of Boston^ as soon as the rigour of the
season, apd other circumstances indbpensable to the safety
:ipd aficpmiaodation of the said tronps may render the same
praqtipible*"
The Earl o£ Suffolk. His Lordship condemned the con-'
4uct of.tJbe Americans in the most determined and unreserved
ternut He. complimented the noble Earl, who opened the
debate, on his great abilities, - but begged leave to pronounce
him mistaken, in,. almost eivery position belaid idown; and
thought it extremely .improper, considering the present
alarming stat^ of. America, to caisse divisions, and, by so
dioing, to weaken the force of the parent state. He observed^
that the noble Earl had animadverted severely on those who
jhadt or were supposed to advise the mieasore of dissolving
the parliament \ and had. likewise thrown out some insinu9*
tions^ directed against the suppc^ed authors of the present
intentions of administration. As to the first he avowed him-
self to be one of the principal advisers, as he looked upon,
it, nay foresaw from the beginning, that all the steps taken
by the Americaias, in congress and elsewhere^ would be
to influence the general election, by creating jealousies,
fears, and prejudices among the mercantile and trading
part of the nation ; that happily the ideas he espoused had
prevailed, by which means those sinister designs were pre-
vented from taking effect ; that he was happy to find his con-^
jectures right, and to perceive that those designs were de-
feated ; and that an improper influence, originating whence
it might, or in whatever manner, made very little diflerence.
As to the point of sldvice, in relation to coercive measiures,
he very frankly declared himself to be equally strenuous \ for
all conciliating means having proved ineflectual, he thought
it high time .for the mother country to exert her authority,
or for ever relinquish it. If the task be difficult now, wh^
must it be in a few years time ? Parliament must be obeyed,
or it must not \ if It be obeyed, then who shall resist ita
determix^tions ? If it be not, then we may as well at once
.give up : ey^yclaim of authority over . America. I diould
fc0ni to be prestxtt in this House, and sit still without freely
ftftchrmg aiy. sentiments; L dumld «cotii.iDQ coioasoout tsut.
9^
A- I77J. D. E B; A: T E S- * ii
. o£"hiLs Majesty's mimst^rBi. 994^ ftqt advise coerceive nieasures*
when I was so firmly aqdiully convinced of their necessity |
and I take apartiifUbr pi^de, in avowing those sentiments}
and' mean steadily to abide by them at all events. His Lordi>
shipthoi' proceeded ,to comment on the proceedings of the
cotigreaSi in relation to. their disapprobatkn of certain acts
of .pariiaspent» partkuiadiy the. four or five last adverted to at
that meeting. He defei^iedthem aiU suid contended, that
the.Bo0tQn port bdl* jf :^obstinacy o£ the Bostonians had
not prevented it^ would haye «xeeutod itself* aa a.aaiisfiK>
tion.fot the Jcnnm{gfm^%daoi&.tQi the; East India Company^
vrould luvae at once put the port- of Boston on its fbnnes
footing, . and have of* course made an ^)emtig br. a compteat.
reconcUiattcm. -Herinsisted strongly that the mother coiuitry
shxHjld neverrrehcr tSl Amerka ccmfessed.her supremacy ; aiul
that as:, soon, as America had dutifully compliedj she would
meet with evecy indulgence consistent with the real interest o^,
both countries ( but that any concession on our parts, till the
right on' which att our pretensioiis were founded, was allowed|
would. be to the last degree- impolitic# pusillaninx>ns, and
absurd. . He-supposed, he said, ti^t the noble Earl would be
aione in his opinion, that tlas: country had . :not the right to
tax America* : The right implied, acoording to him, the ne-
cessity of the exercise, of it. He thought it a duty incum*
bent on administration to pursue their object of subduing the
refractory rebellion Americans ; and avowed the ministerial
resolution of enforcing obedience by arms.
The Lord Wycfmbe^ (Earl of Shelbume). Hiis Lordship
began with renouncing all personal engagements whate\er %
and solemnly declared, that lie adopted the noble Earl's senti-
ments, (the Earl, of Chatham) solely on account of their
wisdom, justice^ and propriety. He said, the specious lan^
gnage oi the supremacy of the British legislature, the inte*
rests of Great-Britain,' of her authority over the £oloniesi
&c. was artfuUy held out to delude and deceive, both parlia-
ment and people: it was intended to operate on every degrdf
of men: lite vcry.coblcr is, he says, swelled up with hts
own importanoe, :as being a. party in a contest with those oxk
the other side, who. are as. artfully represented to be ready to
throw oflF all obedience j who: are described to be traitors,- *
vagabonds, and rebels, guilty of the most flagrant basesiesid
and ingratitude. ]}ut sure, says his lordship, there is no^--
a Aobie lord wi^in these walls, there is not a man witlioatg ^
who does not instatitly perceive the notorious fallacy of suidhc -
a misrepresentation. No man oan be oi ^ Vc^ to koL^s "^^^^sdi^
tt PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^
a majofity of both Houses, however constituted, are the nz*
tion ; that tfvat majority is led and directed by an adxniiii-
ttration consisting of four or five Mrsons ; and those* again,
by one man. Let us, therefore, hear no more of the peo-
ple, the parliament, or Great Britain j bixt consider the issue
as simply depending between the parties thus described, be*
tween adtninistration on one side, and all America on the
other. He then proceeded to animadvert with great ability
on the several acts of the last sesnon respecting America ;
and' contended' without reserve, that the Boston port bill
d^d' not-^bcecute itself, nor was ever meant so to do; for
supposing^ the ihmmagemera to be repaired, and the injury
Sustained hy the East-India Company comjpensated, what did
^e act 5ay? Why, that when his Majesty should think
that the Bostonians had returned to their obedience, and
peace and good government {iiUy established, his Majesty
might open the port on such conditions as he thought proper 1
and appoint such places for the landing and shipping of
goods within the said port and harbour as he pleased. Here
he highly arraigned the unconstitutional policy w^iich diAated
that part of the act, and wantonly lodged a power in the
King and council, which parliament, if it regarded its own
honour, should have never parted with. He condemned
in genoral, the madness, injustice, and infatuation of coer-^-
cing the Americans into a blind and servile submission *, and
repeated, what had been received in the most ludicrous man-4
ner, on a formei: occasion, that a tipstaff would execute the
acts better than a military force consisting of a hundred
thousand men.
The Lord Lytte/ton set out with complimenting the noble
Earl) who first spoke in the debate, on his great political
wisdom, his extensive talents, and the fruits of both, the
glorious successes of the late war, which must deservedly
crown him with immortal laurels. He grounded jus argu-^
ments chiefly on the legislative supremacy of the British par-
liament. He ridiculed the absurd idea of an inactive right,
when there was the most apparent and urgent necessity for
exercising it. It would be a madness in the extreme, npt
direAly to assert, dr for ever relinquish it. He could not, he
said, at ail agree with the noUe Earl in his encomiums on
the continental congress $ for so far from applauding their
wisdom, &c. he contended, that the whole of their delibera-
tions and proceedings breathed the spirit of unconstitutional
independency anci open rebellion. His lordship pointed to
the p^tkul2r. ianguage of some of their tesolutiot^ \ and
A, 1775. DEBATES.. )rj
endeavoured to prove, that if Great; Britain should give, wiay
on the present occasion, from mistaken motives of present
advantages in trade, commerce, &c. such a concession would
inevitably defeat its own object; for it was plain, that the na*
yigation act, and all other regulatory acts, which formed the
great basis on which those advantages rested, and the true in-
terests of both countries depended, would fall a victim to the
interested and ambitious views of America. Now, there-
fore, was the time to assert the authority of Great Britain,
for if we did not, he had not a single doubt on his own
mind, but every concession on our side would produce a
new demand on theirs-, and in the end, bring about that
state of traitorous independency, at which it was too plain
they were now aiming. He lamented the disgraceful mise-
rable state of the troops under General Gage, daily crumb-
ling awav with sickness and desertion, destitute of covering
and sustenance, and, what was much worse, their spirits
broken and themselves disheartened with the insolent taunts
and rjepeated provocations of a rebellious surroimding rabble.
He reflected severely on the conduct of those, that put him
and kept him in so disgraceful a situation. He said, he
should be glad to knpw by what secret power or over-ruling
influence the wishes of parliament liad been defeated. ' On
the other hand, if it was from that gentleman's own sugges-
tions he acted, he freely declared, that however prevalent it
might be, from every side of the House, to bestow encomiums
on him, he must continue to think his conduct extremely re-
prehensible, and deserving of censure. His Lordship dis-
claimed all personal connection With administration. He said
he supported them, because he imagined and believed them
to be right.
The Lord Camden, His Lordship said he woujd not enter
into the large field of discussion, or collateral reasoning, aj>- ,
plicable to the abstruse and metaphysical, distinctions neces*
sarjr to the investigation of the omnipotence of parliament;
but this he would venture to assert, that the natural right of
mankind, and the immutable laws of justice, were clearly in
favour of the Americans. He observed that great stress had
been laid on the legislative supremacy of Great Britain; and,
as far as the doctrine was directed to its proper objects, it
was a just one; but it was no less true in fact, that conso-
nant to all the reasonings of all the speculative writers on go-
vernment, that no man, either agreeable to the true princi-
ples of natural or civil liberty, could be divested of any part
of liis property without his own consent. He pledged • him-
14 PARLIAMENTARY ., *
t€\{y at a proper time, to prove that the law of - England 4i4
not give the rights claimed by parliament, to tax America*
That.no book or record expressed such right j that he- could
not tell where to look for it; that he consulted law and his-
tory, and his search was equally fruitless in both. In wha^
Icing'sreien, he asked, could it be found? Was it in the old
times, before our colonies existed ; or when? He said that in
the time of Charles the First, when that great constitutional
lawyer, Mr. Selden, was pressed to declare on what legal
^grounds resistance was justifiable, he replied it was by th«
custom of England, and that was part of the law of the land.
'And concluded by ref^ring to the works of Judge Black-
stone, where avoiding to state the rule, when resistance i^
justifiable,' he lays down the Revolution as the only precedent)
but adds, though the various circumstances and incidents^
which may justify resistance, cannot be exactly defined, it is
plain, the people at large, who possess the original rights ne-
cessary to their own happiness and preservation, have the
same right to recall it, whenever the power and authority,
thus delegated by them, has been abused, and manifestly eoK
ployed to their own ruin and destruction.
The Earl of Chatham^ in reply, observed, that if the noble
Lord near the table (Lord Lyttelton) who suggested, that the
views of America were ultimately pointed to the defeating the
act of navigation, and the other regulatory actS) so wisely
framed and calculated for that reciprocity of interests, so es-
sentially necessary to the grandeur and prosperity of the
whole empire, was right, there was no person present, how^
ever zealous, would be readier than himself, to resist and
crush any attempt of that nature in the first instance; but to
come at any certain knowledge of their real sentiments; it
would be proper first to do them justice ; to treat them like
subjects, before they were condemned as aliens, or traitors.
He said, he entirely acquiesced in the sentiments of his noble
friend (Lord Camden); that the present was not a subject
proper for nice, metaphysical discussion; that property wa«
a simple subject, distinct and unconnected with the variously
complex ideas in which other questions relative to policy
were inevitably involved; that he still remained^ and ever
fhoiild continue of opinion, that the right which God, and
nature, and the constitution, had given ^ British subject to
his property, was invariably inalienable, without his own
coil sent ; and that no power under Heaven could touch it
without that consent, either implietl, or expressly and directly
/ivLui* He treated the idea of taxation, being included in
A. 177S- ^ E B A T E S. tj
legidatioDf in |he roost li^dioroos terms. He contended, |}iat
they were two (q>erations in our constitution totally distinct .
zbA foreign to. each others that the latter plainly originated
from the power vested in th^ legislative great council, to con-
tr6ul, direct^ and watch over the interests of the whole so^
dety, oy way of regulation and coerci(ui, for tie common b^
iiefiti while the former was inseparably connected with pro-
perty, and must for ever suit itself to the true nature and dis-
position of property in gei^eraL
Lord Viscount Towmhind desired several, acts of his present
Majesty might be read. ' He endeavoured to prove that some
of them were nearly connected with the act of navigation
passed in t}ie reign of Charles the Second. The resolutions
of the American congress condemning those acts, shews, he
$»dj that the views of America are not confined to the redress
of grievances, real or imaginary, but are immediately directed
to the total overthrow of that great Palladium of the British
<omnierce, the act of navigation. The question, he said, -
was not now barely a question of revenue j but whether that
great commercial system, on which the strength and prospe*
rity of Great Britain, and the mutual interests of both coun-
•tries, vitally depended, should be destroyed, in ordqr to gra^
tify the foolishly ambitious temper of a turbulent ungrateful
people. He contended strongly, if concessions of that nature
were to be made, restrictions taken off, and trade allowed to
flow, in wliat was called its natural channels, Ireland, who
helped to man our fleets and armies ^ who had contributed so
. generously and freely to the common support \ who had sa
chearfuUy assisted in alleviating Our burthens; was much bet-
. ter entitled to it than America.
. The Earl of Rochfird was for firm and decisive measure!^
To retreat, he insisted, was to be vanquished: and condemned
tliose who were for conceding at this critical juncture. The
. unity of the British empire should, in his opinion, supersede-
every inferior consideration^ because on that its prosperity,
stability and external grandeur immediately depended. He
disclaimed, in the name of the King's ministers, all imputa-
tions and insinuations thrown out by a noble Lord. . He said,
he believed the General was as little censurable as they were,,
and that it was next to impossible to decide on that gentle-
njan's conduct at^ so great a distance, and- without knowiqg
the motives that led to it.
Earl Gcwer. He was well informed, thnt the language
now held by tlie Americans, was the language of the rabble
and a few factious leader?; that the delegates at the con-
ig P A R L I A ME NTT A R T A, 1775^
gtessy were far from expressing the true sense of the respect-*
aWc part of their constituents; that in many places they were
chosen by a kind of force, in which the people of consequence
were sCfraid, unprotected as they were, to interpose ; and
where it was otherwise, they were borne down by faction in
some instances, and perverted by the most false misrepresen-
tations in others; that taking it in either light, the measured
proper to be pursued by Great Britain were plain, and did
not admit of the least controversy; for either, says his Lord-
ship, they are disposed as I have now represented, or they are
not : if they are, they deserve our utmost protection; if they
tre not, we should exert and strain every nerve to make them
submit. I have all along been of that opinion. I now avow
It ; and be the event what it may, I never mean to shrink or
evade the consequences of an advice which I am proud to
pwn.
The Marquis of Rockingham observed, that as ministry had
avowed an intention of sending out more troops to Boston^
and as that was a measure totally repugnant to his plan of re-
conciliation, he was. glad of an opportunity of resisting that
mischievous and dangerous design of governing the colonies
by force. He said that the troops which had so idly been
sent thither, were by their instructions left in so di^aceful a
state, that he wished them recalled with the most possible dis-
patch; and consequently he must be averse to the designs ad-
ministration entertained, of fiirther exposing our troops to
shame and disgrace; and of course he joined the motion for
the recall of the troops. He expressed pretty strongly his ad-
herence to his old opinion of the propriety of the declaratory
act, which he seemed to consider as necessary to the dominion
of this country, and no way hurtful to the freedom of Ame-
rica; but he reserved himself to a more proper season for de-'
bating that principle, only insisting that the congress had ex-
pressed no dissatisfaction with the declaratory act ; and he
thought it needless to give them more than they desired.
The Duke of Richmond supported Lord Chatham's motion
with firmness, and answered his adversaries with accuracy and
precision* He contrasted very happily the stubbornness of mi-
nistry in refusing to have the least feeling for the miseries and
complaints of British subjects, while they were all awake and-
full of attention to the most arrogant expectations of fo-
reign powers; and then mentioned the fact stated by Count
de Guincs in his Memorial, that the English ministiy, in
the question of the Falkland Islands, had agreed to disarm
■ ' 7 TVvR.
A. 1775- DEBATES. 17
TEe Earl of Rochford declared^ that upon his honour and
conscience^ he believed Count de Guines innocent of the in-
famou9 charge laid against him ; that as to disarming firsts the
Count was mistaken ; for that long before he [Lord Roch-
ford] had made the proposal of disarming, he had received a
letter from Lord Harcourt, mforming him, that the Frendi
had began to disarm \ that the proposal he made about dis-
arming, was to do it reciprocally, at a given time ; that the
object of the armament being at an end, form \ra8 not neces-
sary as to the period of disarming, and more especially, as
from all his advices from the King's -ministers abnoad, both
the French and Spaniards had first began to disarm.
Lord Viscount Weymouth^ opposed the motion ; was for
sending troops to America : but held himself disengaged from
co-operating with administration, till he was fully acquainted
with the whole train of measures they proposed to adopt, di-
gested into one perfect system ; adding, that in his present
state of mind, and want of proper knowledge, he did not
know if he should even be for augmenting the present military
force under General Gage.
This de;bate lasted till eight o'clock, when the House di-
vided ; 18 contents, and 68 non-contents.
The minority were.
Dukes
of Cumberland
Earls
Stanhope
Richmond
Spencer
Portland
Chatham
Manchester
Bishop of Exeter
Marquis c^ Rockingham
Lords
Camden
Earls
Thanet
Wycombe
Abingdon
Ponsonby
FitzwilUam
Sondes
Tankerville
• -
Gro8venor<
Feii^ary i.
The Earl of Chath'am. His Lordship began with remind-
ing the House, that the last day he had the honour of im-
parting his sentiments to them^ he had informed them, that
with their indulgence he would submit certain propositions
to thdr consideration, as a basiis for averting the dangers
which now threatened the British empire ; and that in per-
formance of his promise, he had sketched the outlines of a bill,
which he hoped would meet with the approbation of every side
of the House. He |HX)ceeded to stkte the urgent necessity of
such a pha, as, p^haps, a period of a few houH mi^ for
Vox. n. c ^«
i8 PARLIAMENTARY A. i^js-
ever defeat the possibility of any such conciliatory interven-
tion. He represented Great Britain and America as drawn
up in martial array, waiting for the signal to engage in a con-
test, in which it was little matter for whom victory declared,
as ruin and destruction must be the inevitable consequence to
both parties. He wished, he said, fr>om a principle of duty
and affection, to act the part of a mediator. He said, how-
ever, that no regard for popularity, no predilectron for his
country, not the high esteem he entertained for America on
one hand, nor the unalterable steady regard he entertainec}.
for the dignity of Great Britain on the other, should at all
influence his conduct 5 for though he loved the Americans, as
men prizing and setting the just value on that inestimable
Messing Liberty 5 yet if he could once bring himself to be per-
ssaded, that they entertained the most distant intentions of
throwing off the legislative supremacy and great constitutional
superintending power and ccMitroul of the British kgisbture,
he should be the very person hhnself, who would be the first
and most zealous mover for securing and enforcing that power
by every possible exertion this country was capable of making.
He recurred to his former arguments, on the great constitu-
tional question of taxation and representation ; insisted they '
were inseparable, and planted so deeply- in the vital principles
of the constitution, as never to be torn up, without destroying
and pulling asunder every band of legal government and good .
- faith, which formed the cement that united its several consti-
tuent parts together. He entreated the assistance of the House
to digest the crude materials which he presumed to now lay
before it, and bring it and reduce it to that form, which was
suited to the dignity and the importance of the sal>jeet, and
to the great ends to which it was ultimately directed. Hq;
called on them to exercise their candour on the present oc-
casion, snd deprecated the effects of party or prejudice, of
factious spleen, or a blind predilection. He avov/ed himself
to be actuated by no narrow principle, or personal consi-
deration-whatever ; for though the present bill might be
.looked upon as a bill of concession, it was impossible but ta
confess at the same time, that it was a bill of assertion.
The foUowmg ij> an authentic copy of the proposed biilv
** A provisional act for settling the troubles in America^
and for asserting the supreme legislative authority and super-
intending power of Great Britain over the colonies.
" Whereas, by an Adt 6 Geo. III. it is declared^ that
Farlimnent has full power- and authority to make laws and
A. 177 J. DEBATES. 19
st^utes tobind^the people of the colonies, in all cases what-
soever. And whereas reiterated complaints and most dan-
gerous disorders have grown, touching the right of taxation
claimed and exercised over America j to the disturbance of
peace and good order there, and to the actual interruption of
the due intercourse from Great Britain and Ireland to the co-
lonies ; deeply affecting the navigation, trade, and manufafhires
of this kingdom, and of Ireland, and announcing farther, an
interruption of all exports from the said colonies to Great Bri-
tain, Ireland, and the British islands in America. Now, for the
prevention of these ruinous mischief, and in order to an equi-
table, honorable and lasting settlement of claims not sufficiently
ascertained and circumscribed, may it please your most excel-
lent Majesty, that it may be declared, and be it declared, by
the King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and
consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Commons in
this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the
same, that the colonies of America have been, are, and of right
ought to be, dependent upon the imperial crown of Great Bri-
tain, and subordinate unto the British Parliament; and that the
King's most excellent Majesty^ by and with the advice and con-
sent of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Commons in Par-
liament assembled, had, hath, and of right ought to have, full
power and authority to make laws and statutes of sufficient
force and validity to bind the people of the British colonies
in America, in all- matters touching the general weal of the
whole dominion of the imperial crown of Great Britain, and
beyond the competency of the local representative of a distinct
colony 5 and most especially an indubitable and indispensible
right to make and ordain laws for regulating navigation and
•trade throughout the complicated system of British com-
merce ; the deep policy of such prudent acts upholding the
guardian navy of the whole British empire : and that all sub-
jects in the colonies are bound in duty and allegiance duly to
recognize and obey (and th6y are hereby required so to do)
the supreme legislative authority and superintending power of
the Parliament of Great Britain, as aforesaid. And whereas,
in a petition from America to hi? Majesty, it has been repre-
sented, that the keeping a standing army within any of the
colonies, in time of peace, without consent of the respective
provincial assembly there, is against law: be it declared by the
King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and
consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Commons in
this present Parliament assembled, that the declaration of right,
at the ever glorious Revolution, namely, " th^ the raising
C 2 ^' -mSl
20 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775,
<^ and keeping a standing army within the kingdom^ in time
** of peace> unless it be by consent of Parliament^ is against
•' law," haying reference only to the consent of the Parlia-
ment of (ireat Britain, the . legal, constitutional, and hi-
therto unquestioned prerogative of the crown, to send any
part of such army, so lawfiilly kept, to any of the British do*
fninions and possessions, whether in America or elsewhere,
as his Majesty, in the due care of his subjects, may judge
necessary for the security and protection of the same, can-
not be rendered dependent upon the consent of a pi'o-
vincial assemUy in the colonies, without a most dangerous^
innovation and derogation from the dignity of the imperial
trown of Great Britain. Nevertheless, in order to quiet and
dispel groundless jealousies and fears, be it hereby declared,
that no military force, however raised and kept according to
law, can ever be lawfully employed to violate and destroy the
just rights of the people.
" Moreover, in order to remove for ever, all causes of
pernicious discords, and' in due contemplation of the vast
increase of possessions and population in the colonies ^. and
having at heart to render the condition of so great a body of
industrious subjects there, more and more happy, by the sa-
credness of property, and of personal liberty 5 and of more
extensive and lasting utility to the parent-kingdom, by in-
dissoluble ties of mutual affection, confidence, trade, and reci-
procal- benefits} be it declared and enacted by the King's
most excellent Majesty, by and with tlie advice and consent
of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Commons m this pre-
sent Parliament assembled 5 and it is hereby declared and
enacted, by the authority of the same, that no tallage, tax,
or other charge for his Majesty's reyt^ue, shaH be command-
ed or levied from British freemen in America, without com-
mon consent, by act of provincial assembly tlierc, duly con-
vened for that purpose. And it is hereby fiirtlier declared
and enacted,' by the King's most excellent Majesty, by and
with the advice and consent of the Lords spiritual and
temporal, and Commons in this present Parliament as-
seUGtbled, and by the authority of the same, that it shall and
may be lawful for delegates from the respective provinces,
lately assembled at Philadelphia, to itkcct in general congress
at the said Philadelphia, on the ninth day of May next en-
suing, in order then and there to take into consideration
the making due recognition of the supreme legislative au-
thority and superintending power of Parliament over the c6-
/on/es, as a/presaid. Aiid moreover, may it please your
A. 1775. DEBATES* 21
most excellent Majesty, that the said delegates to be in con-
gress assembled in manner aforesaid, may be required^ and
the same are hereby required, by. the King's Majesty sitting
in his Parliament, to tJikc into consideration, (over said above
the usual charge for support of civil government in the re«.
fipective colonies) the making a free grant to the King, hit
heirs and successors, of a certain perpetual revenue, subject
to the disposition of the British Parliament, to be by them
appropriated, as they in their wisdom shall judge fit, to the
alleviation of the national debt : no doubt being had, but
the just, free aid will be in such honourable proportion, as
may seem fneet and becoming from great and flourishing to^
lonies towards a parent-country, labouring under the hea-
viest burthens, (which in no inconsiderable part) have bcea
willingly taken upon ourselves and posterity, for the defence
extension, and prosperity of the colonies.
** And to this great end, be it farther hereby declared and
enacted, that the general congress (to meet at Philadelphia as
aforesaid) shall be and is hereby authorised and impowered,
(the delegates composing the same being first sufficiently forw
nished with powers from their respective provinces for this
purpose) to adjust and fix the repartitions and quotas of the
several charges to be borne by each. province respectively, to^
wards the general contributory supply ; and thi$ in sufch fair
and. equitable measure as may best suit the abilities and
due convenience of all^ Provided always, that the powers
for fixing the said quotas, hereby given to the delegates
from the old provinces composing the congress, shall not ex-
tend to the new provinces of East and West Florida, Georgia,
Nova Scotia, St. John's and Canada ; the circumstances and
abilities of the said provinces being reserved for the wis-
dorif of Parliament in their due time. And in order to af^
ford necessary time for mature deliberation in America, be
it hereby declared, that the provisions for ascertaining and
fixipg t£e exercise of the right of taxation in the colonies, as
agreed and expressed by this present aft, shall not be in
force, or have any operation, until the delegates to be in
congress assembled, sufficiently authorised and empowered by
their respective provinces to this end, shall, as an indispen-
sible condition, have duly recognized the supreme legisla^
tive authority and superintending power of the Parliament of
Great Britain over the colonies, as aforesaid* Always un-
derstood, that a free grant of an aid as herc-before required
and expected from the colonies, is not to be considered ^& -».
condition of redress, but 2^ a just tcsUmoTq oS. \3!w£\\ -^^^
ti^nk 4nd whereas divers acts ofP;tfY\^racxv!L\:aNt.\s^^xv\s^^
C ^ "^^^
22 PARLIAMENTART A. 1775.
■bly represented in a petition to his Majesty from America,
to have been found grievous, in whole or in part, to the sub-
jects of the colonies, be it hereby declared, by the King's
' most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent
of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Commons in this
present Parliament assembled* and by the authority of the
same, that the powers of admiralty and vice-admiralty
courts in America, shall be restrained within their ancient
limits, and the trial by jury, in all civil cases, where the
same may have been abolished, restored ; and that no subject
in America shall, in cajpital cases, be liable to be indicted and
tried for the same, in any place out of the province where*
in such offence shall be alledged to have been committed }
nor be deprived of a trial of his peers of the vicinage : nor
shall it be lawful to send persons indicted for murder, in any
province of America, to another colony, or to Great Bri*
tain, for trial. And it is hereby declared and enacted, by the
authority aforesaid, that all and every the same acts, or so
much thereof as are represented to have been found grievous,
-namely, the several acts of the 4 Geo. III. ch. 15, and ch.
34; 5 Geo. III. ch. 25; 6 Geo. III. ch. 525 7 Geo. III.
ch. 41, and ch. 46; 8 Geo. III. ch. 22 5 12 Geo. III. ch.
24 ; with the three acts, for stopping the port and blocking
up the harbour of Boston, for altering the charter and govern-
ment of Massachusetts Bay, and that entitled, *^ An aft for
** the better administration of justice, &c." Also, tht act
for regulating the government of Quebec, and the act, passed
in the same session, relating to the quarters of soldiers, shall
be, and are hereby suspended, and not to have effect or exe-
cution, from the date of this act. And be it moreover here^
by declared and enacted, by the authority aforesaid, that all
and every the before-recited acts, or, the parts thereof com-
plained of, shall be, and arc, in virtue of this present act,
finally repealed and annulled, from the day that the due re^
cognition of the supreme legislative authority and superin-»
tending power of Parliament over the colonies shall have
been made on the part of the said colonies.
^* And for the better securing diie and impartial admini-^
stration of justice in the colonies, be it declared and enacted,
by the King's most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice
and consent of the Lords spiritual and temporal, and Com-s-
mons in this present Parliament assembled, that his Majesty's
judges in courts of law in the colonies in America, to be ap-
po/nted with salaries by the crown, shall hold their ofBces and
salaries as bis Majesty's judges in £ng\a.ii4> quam diu se ben^
^eisevint^
A. 1775- D E B A T E-S. 23
gesserint. And it is hereby farther declared, by the authority
aforesaid, that the colonies in America are justly entitled to
the privileges, franchises and immimities granted by the se-
veral charters or constitutions, and that the said cliarters or
constitutions ought not to be invaded or resumed, unless for
HMsuser, or some legal ground of forfeiture. So shall true
reconcilement 'avert impending calamities, and this most so-
lemn national accord between Great-Britain and her colonies,
5ttod an everlasting monument of clemency and magnanimity
in the benignant Father of his People; of wisdom and mode-
ration in this great nation, famed for humanity as for valour;
ind of fidelity and gratefiil affection from brave and loyal
colonies to their parent-kingdom, which will ever protea and
cherish them."
The Earl tJf Dartmouth ohservedy that the bill took in such
^ variety of matter, it was inipossible for him to pronounce
any certain opinion concerning its propriety; and as the
nobld Earl who presented it did not seem willing to press the
House to any immediate decision, but appeared rather de-
sirous that it should be maturely and fully considered, he sup-
posed it would be quite agreeable to him, that the bill should
lie on the table till the papers referred by his Majesty were
first taken into consideration; if so, he had no objection to
the bill, being received on those terms.
The Earl of Sandivich rose, and instantly changed this ap-
pearance of concession on the part of administration: he insist-
ed that to concede was at once to give up the point; that he
was well assured America had already formed the most traitor-
' ous and hostile intentions ; that the last dispatches brought
over an account, that they had already attacked and taken
one of the King's forts, and had seized the King's stores and
ammunition to employ them against him, which if any thing
could be deemed rebellion, it was plain this was. He highly
condemned the mode of bringing this bill forward, and every
circumstance attending it; and observed, with ho small degree
of warmth, that it was no less unparliamentary then unpre-
cedented. He said it was impossible, on so short a notice, to
determine on a matter of such sihgular importance, so exten-p.
sive in its objects, and so novel in its introduction. As to
the stale pretension of preserving our commercial interests,
that device could iiy(pose on none but those who were wil-
fully blind, and who were resolved to contradict the plainest
evidence of facts, and shut their eyes against reason and com-
mon sense; for it was clear the Americans were not disputing
about words, but realities, it was to free tivcroseVie^ fe^s^^^
C 4 \e^\X\OcV3W5»
24 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
restrictiens laid on their conimerce, that was the principal mo- ^
live for their present obedience ^ it was not the tea they realtf
objected, for if they could procure it from any other plac#
but Britain, they^would be well pleased, of which he had the
most undeniable proof in his pocket, in authentic letters in-
formjnc him, that there were ships now lading at Amsterdam,
Port L Orient, and Havre de Grace, with various sorts of
East-India and European commodities, intended for certain
partsofthecontinentof North America. HisLordshiptherefcMI
moved, That the bill shofild be rejected in the first instance.
. The Lord Lyttleton set out with the highest encomiums on
the great abilities and high political knowledge of the noble
Earl who framed the'bill. He said his Imowledge was as cx^
tensive as his intentions were good and great; that in the
most trying situations, when the nation was reduced nearly
to desperation and despair, he stood fortli alone, on the great
dangerous ocean of politics, and rescued the nation from the
impending ruin which was suspended over its head. For
ihese reasons, as well as the particular merit of the proposition,
now made, he thought both the mover and the matter de-
served a more favoiu-able reception. He said, though he could
not probably agree with the noble Earl in many of his ideas,
particularly relative to the repeal of the Quebec bill, which
was included in those mentioned in the petition of rights to
the King, he must still continue to think it was es^remcly
improper at once to reject and put a negative on a proposi-
tion) which carried on the face of it a plan of reconciliation ;
and made an opening for changing negociation for the sword.
He avowed his former sentiments respecting the supremacy of
the British Parliament \ but would gladly enjoy all the sub-
stantial fruits of that supremacy, in the way of obedience
and submission, in preference to wresting them ''by. force and
violence. His Lordship then procee?ded to animadvert. on the
conduct of administration, on their manifest misconduct re-
specting the insufficiency of the force sent to Boston-, but
was called to order by the Earl of Sandwich ^ who was also
called to order by the Duke of Richmond. His Grace
insisted, Jbord Lyttleton ought not to have been interrupted.
Lord L)rttleton concluded with a simile drawn from the Ro-
man history, where a General in the time qf Augustus be-
ing sent with a force again^ the Germans, not adequate to
the service, the General with all his army were unhappily
cut off. When Augustus heard of it, his observation was,
that such a force should have been sent a^ would have ensured
success^ ^
A.177S- DEBATES- 25
The Lord Wycombe^ (Earl of Shelbume) discljumed the
kast kiyowledge of the contents of the bill till it was
read by the clerk. He was extremely animated^ and
painted, in the strongest colours, the probable consequences
of pushing matters to extremities. A ruined commerce,
starving manufacturers, encreased taxes, heavy poor-rates,
rents fallen, an exhausted exchequer, and a diminished re-
venue, were some of the first effects he predicted, that would
inevitably follow f?om adopting the measures of admini-
stration. His Lordship proceeded to take notice of ano-
ther matter which had been hitherto overlooked, but which
deserved the most serious consideration. It was well known,
he said, the vast supplies of bread com brought into this
kingdom from America, would now of course be stoppe4;
and that again would add to all our other acounulated mis-
fortunes, riots and tumults of the most alarming and dan*
gerous nature. People must eat, and it would be impossible
to reconcile them to measures which would at once cut them
off from. procuring the necessaries of life, unless at a most ex-
orbitant and advanced price, and the means of purchasing
them ahnost at any price. He ventured, he said, to speak
with the more confidence of what might be justly drfeaded on
jthis occasion, because, when only one part of the case exist-
ed, a scarcity of grain in the year 1 766, when he had the
honour of acting as one of his Majesty's secretaries of state,
he well remembered the dreadful alarms that were spread on
account of the risings and tumultuous meetings in almost
every part of the kingdom. One day an express arrived
from Norwich, another from the inland counties, to which
troops were sent to quell the rioters ; the next day, one from
Southampton and the western counties, aild a fourth fitim
Chester and the North. I would have these things materially
considered and weighed, says his Lordship. All the troops
now in Great-Britain and Ireland would scarcely ^suffice to
put the proposed measures in execution. Think then in time;
Ireland naked and defenceless, England in an uproar from
one end to the other for want of bread, and destitute of
employment. Besides all this, is there, then, a noble Lord
in administration who will rise and tell me, that he serioufly
thinks, the powers of Europe, particularly those whose cona^
mercisd interests and naval power claih with ours, will sit to*
tally unconcerned, and slip so favourable an opportunity of
humbling that power, andnurting those interests^ I cannot
believe there is. Perhaps administration trusts to the assur-
ances of their inveterate enemies atiA fai&e favov^s ^i ^^sssrij
do^ ^ thzt I will add is, that 1 finccrd^ ^xt^ ^3^^^^^*
^\tf:
z6 PARLIAMENTARY A- 1775.
The Duke of Grafton complained severely of the very
unparliamentary manner the noble Earl had hurried the biU
into the House: he said, he had the honour of sitting there
' longer than the noble Earl, and within his knowledge or re-
rollection he could safely affirm, he never remembered ano-
ther instance of the kind. For his part, he was astonished
how any matter so important in its nature, so extensive in its
ton sequences, and directed to such a variety of objects, each
of them worthy of a separate consideration, could be thus
hrought forward together, and in such a manner. In his
opinion the matter should have been laid before the House,
in separate proportions, each of which should be singly dis-
<rus6ed, as leading to one great comprehensive system. His own
opinion respecting the general question, was, he said, per*-
haps different from that entertained by either party. When
the day arrived, and that it came before the House regularly,
and in a proper inode, he should declare it freely and openly
without reserve or predileftion for the sentiments of any set
of men; but wheji he considered the manner of introducing
it, and the immense mass of matter it contained, however
highly he might estimate the talents of the noble framer, or
great a personal regard he mi^ht entertain for him, he must
agree with the noble Earl who moved the amendment, and
consequently be for rejecting the bill in the first instance.
- Earl Chivcr rose in a great heat, and condemned the bill
m the warmest terms. He contended, that it fell in with the
ideas of America in almost every particular, and held out
no one security; that although we should be base and das-
tardly enough to betray the rights of the Parliament of Great-
firitain, that America would agree to such parts of it as the
noble I^ord seemed to point out as matters of submission or
concession; but above all, it not only sanctifies the traitor-
ous proceeding of the congress already held, but further le-
galizes it, by ordaining that another shall be held on the pth
of May next. He then endeavoured to prove that suspending
the acts mentioned in the bill, would be to every substantial pur-
pose an actual repeal. He defended those acts one after another;
and insisted, that the act of navigation would be of no avail,
would be no more than a dead letter, if the laws for establish-^
ing the admiralty courts were repealed; for to talk of laws
for restricting and regulating their conunerce without the
means for enforcing and executing them, was a mere mock-
ery of reason and common sense. He next launched into
grent encomiums on the Quebec bill; .spoke much of its le-
i^^tj} moderatioTiy justice and policy, s?i\d, \l vf?cs ^ xtiS-^-svrc^t
A. 1775. DEBATES. 27
no less founded in wisdom and justice, than its apparent po-
licy, considering the rebellious' temper of the colonies. w«s
properly directed. He repeated what he had advanced on a
former occasion, that those of the best characters and greatest
property throughout the colonies, were well inclined to obe-
dient and submission to the mother country, that all they
wanted to manifest their zeal and attachment was to be pro-
tected; that were it otherwise, Gre^t Britain was called upon
by every tie of interest, every mqtive of dignity, and every
principle of good government, to assert its legislative supre-
macy entire and undiminished. He avowed his advising'
every measure hitherto taken against them, said he did not
mean to screen himself from any consequence whatever, but
vras prepared for the worst, and ready to face the block in such
a cause. He obscr^^ed that the noble Earl who framed the bill,
seemed to entertain the highest opinion of the prowess of the
Americans, and to lament greatly the cruelty and injustice of
sending a military force against them; yet he remembered the
thne the noble Earl entertained very diflerent sentiments on an
occasion of infinitely less provocation, when he advised their
ports to be filled with ships of war, and their towns with sol-
diers; adding, that an Ensign, with a few regiments, would
reduce them to instant obedience.
Here he was interrupted by the Earl of Ckathaf?jy -who called
on him to name the time and place. Earl Gower was pro-
ceeding, but was again called on to specify the time and place ;
on which he said, it was in a debate in the other House. The
Earl of Chatham condemned such a procedure in very severe
terms, said it was not decent or parliamentary to mention
words spoken out of the House; or if it were, to advert to
some particular expressions, which could not be understood
without referring them to the other parts of the speech; and
in fact, that the noble Earl was mistaken, for no such ex-
•pressions had ever fallen from him, as he knew too well, by
his acquaintance with the force employed during tlie late war
in America, which was not less than 40,000 men, that an
Ensign with a few regiments, could not reduce British Ame-
rica, when the part possessed by France of that continent,
which was not a third of the former, employed so great a
force for full five years, Under the command of one of the
ablest Generals in Europe; (Sir JefFery Amherst.)
This altercation being finished. Earl Goiuery declared in the
most unreserved terms, for reducing the Americans to sub-
mission, gave his hearty ^nauTencc to the Earl of Saud-
wkh's amendxx^nu
i8 PARLIAMENTARY A- 1775.
^Thc Lord Camden argued the matter generally, and chal*
iQpged administration to a full discussion of* every separate
proposition. He could answer for himself, he dared say he
could answer for every noble Lord on the same side, that they
never meant to consider so as to decide on the subject matter
in this stage of tlie business. It was not he was certain ever
intended. I am not, says his Lordship, by any means pre-
pared to speak fuUy to any one material part of it ; but it, as
is always usual on such occasions, they are detennined tocon-
s^der it and to enter into a candid examination, I here pledge
myself to prove every leading proposition on which the bill
rests, particularly the main one, which in a great measure in-
cludes all the rest, the rescinding the declaratory law assert-
^g, that the British Parliament can bind thcv colonies in all
cases whatsoever. On that ground I am ready to meet my
antagonists 5 and if that argument falls, they must, it is evi-
dent, give way. I will maintain the negative on the great
principles of the law and .the constitution, and prove, that in
- no one stage of the constitution, were taxiation and represen-
tation ever separated; and that even in case of the county
Palatines, the very arguments deduced from the exercise of
taxing them before they were represented, will incontrover-
tibly demonstrate, that legislation and taxation are neither co-
extensive nor coequal.
The Earl o( Chatham replied to the several objections which
fell from the members of administration : he descanted with
trcjual humour and severity upon' the very extraordinary logic
employed by the noble Duke, his quondam colleague in office,
and very humble servant. The noble Duke, says his Lord-
sliip, is extremely angry with me, that I did not previously
consult him on the bringing in the present bill : I would ask
the noble Duke, does he consuh me ? or do I desire to be
previbui^fy told of any motions or measures he thinks fit to
propose to this House? His Grace seems to be much of-
fended at the manner this bill has been hurried. I am cer-
tain he could not be serious, if he gave himself a minute to
consider how the case really stands. Here w^ are told that
America is in a state of actual rebellion, and we are now got
to the 1st of February, and no one step is taken to crush this
supposed rebellion : yet, such being the case, I am charged
with hurrying matters; but whether my conduct may be
more justly charged with hurrying this business into, or his
Grace with hurrying it out of the House, I believe requires
no great depth of penetration to discover. As to the other
general objections, I presume it will be TecoUected^ that, the
7^st d^ty I *suhmktcd the proposkion about \vvv\v^wm^x^^^
A. 1775. D E 'B A T E S. 29
troopSi I then gave notice that I would pres^it, in a fewdays^
a plan of general reconciliation. — ^Eleven days have since
elapsed, and nothing has been offered by the King's servants
Under such circumstances of emergency on one side, when
perhaps a sinj^le day may determine the &te of this great em-
pire, and such a shameful negligence, v total inattention, and
want of ability on the other, what was to be done? No
other akemative, in my opinion, remained, but either to
abandon the interests of my country, and relinquish my duty»
or to propose some plan, when ministry, by their inaction
and sHence, owned themselves incapable of proposing any»
But even now let than speak out, and tell me, that they have
a plan to lay before us, and I will give them an example o£
candour they are by no means deserving of, by instantly
withdrawing the present bill. The indecent attempt to stifle
this measure in embryo inay promise consequences the very
reverse of what I am certain will be the case. The friends
of the present amendment may flatter themselves, that the
contents of the bill will sink into silence, and be forgotten^
but I believe they will find the contrary. This bill, though
rejected here, will make its way to the public, to the nation^
to the remotest wilds of America i it will, in such a coiu^e,
undergo a deal of cool observation and investigation; and
whatever its merits or demerits may be, it will rise or fall
by them alone 5 it will, I trust, remain a monument of my
poor endeavours to serve my country; and, however faulty
or defective, will at least manifest how zealous I have been
to avert those impending storms which seem ready to burst on
it, and for ever overwhelm it in ruin. Yet, when I consider
the whole case as it lies before me, I am not much astonished;
I am not surprised, that men who hate liberty should detest
those that prize it; or that those who want virtue themselves,
should endeavour to prosecute those who possess it. Were I
disposed to pursue this theme to the extent tjiat truth would
fully bear me out in, I could demonstrate, tliat tlie whole
of your political conduct has been one continued series of
weakness, temerity, despotism, ignorance, * futility, negli-
gence, blundering, and the most notorious servility, incapa-
city, and corruption. On reconsideration, I must allow you
one merit, a strict attention to your own interests : in that
view, you appear sound statesmen, and able politicians. You
well . know, if the present measure should prevail, that you
must instantly relinquish your places. I <loi|bt iiivch, whe-
ther you will be able to keep them on any terms : but sure
I- am, that such is vour well-known characters and abilities,
any plan of reconciliation, however moder^e, wiaei and fea-
30 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^^.
sible, must fail in your hands. Such then being your preca-
rious siKiations, who can wonder that you should put a nega-
tive on any measure which must annihilate your power, de-
prive you of your emoluments, and at once reduce you to
that state of insignificance, for which God and nature de-
signed you?
' The Earl Gower answered, with strong marks of resent-
ment. He said, let the bill make its way where it might,
he was ready to abide the consequence ; that he did
not doubt but sufficient industry would be exerted to cir-
culate its contents; and that however Jealous some persons
might be to inflame the people both here and in America, it
should have not the least effect on his conduct. He was de-
termined to adhere to the true interests of his country and
the dignity of parliament; and to stand with them to the Is^,
or perish in the ruins ; nor should the terrors of the block
itself oblige him to change his purpose. As to the general
charges thrown out against administration by the noble Earl,
it was time enough to answer them, when he pointed them
in such a manner as to call for defence or explanation; that
till then they were unworthy of reply, as the persons includ-
ed in such a censure only shared the fate of all other admi-
nistrations he ever remembered, since his first knowledge of
public business, his Lordship having uniformly condemned
them, though he afterwards thought proper to act with their
authors; and if the noble Earl's age did not stand in the way>
he had no doubt but that, on the present occasion, his Lord-
ship would give one more proof of his change of sentiment,
by warmly espousing the very measures he now so loudly con-
demned.
The Earl of Hillsborough was severe on the noble framer of
the bilK He spoke fully on legislation, as involving in it
every possible power and exercise of civil government. He
contended, that his Lordship's computation of the numbers
in America, who were ready to dispute the supremacy of par- '
liament, was extremdy^^ erroneous; that if that country con-
tained three millions of people, he would be bold to' say,
from his own certain knowledge of their temper and disposi-
tion, that one-third at least were willing to submit to the
Parliament of Great Britain; that out of the remainder^ the
women, children, and old men, could not be deemed fit to
bear arms; so that the noble Earl's facts were no less erro-
neous than his arguments, when he said, that three millions
of men, with arms in their hands, would never consent to be
taxed by the Jeyislature of this country. He next eridea-
rourcd to correct a mistake of the same uo\i\daiV^>uVitx^ k^
A. 1775. \ DEBATES- 3*
asserted, that French America took 40,000 men to reduce it j
being satisfied, he said, that at no one time was there above
1 2,000 regvdar troops employed on that service. He next de-
fended the declaratory law, but insisted, that it conferred no-
new right, for if it had never been passed, the legislative su-
premacy of Parliament would have remained the same. And
concluded with holding out the favourable disposition of ad-
. ministration towards the colonies, when they manifested a
suitable temper on their part, which could never be till they
submitted to the great constitutional claims of the British le-
gislature.
The Duke of Richmond took a comprehensive view of the
question at large. He examined the bills mentioned in the
claim of rights, one by one, and shewed with great ability
the foundations on which they rested. He dwelt particularly
on the acts for establishing courts of admiralty, and for alter-
ing the charter of the Massachusetts Bay. He said, the for-
mer erected a jurisdiction, the judges of which were inte-
rested in the decision; and the latter, under the colour of con-
stituting juries on the plan of thc&e in England, lodged the
power of selecting persons fit to serve, in an officer called a
Sheriff, it is true, but an officer, at the same time, as little
known in oi;r constitution, as any Turkish or Russian ma-
gistrate. An English sheriff, being irremovable by any
power under Heaven, but for malversation in his office, while
a sheriff in the province of Massachusetts Bay is to be removable
by his Majesty, his governor, or deputy-governor : by which
means, the executive power has virtually the appointing of
juries, and consequently the lives, fortimes, and personal li-
berty of the subjects of that province totally at their disposal
and mercy; a state of sulyugation, he hoped, no Englislmaan
would ever be so mean, slavish, or servile to submit to. He
then insisted that the administration had uniformly, for a
number of ^ years barck, endeavoured to deceive tl^e colonies;
that they fiad so repeatedly violated their most solemn pro-
mises, that all confidence was at an end: that out of num-^
berless instances he should only select one, y^hich was tl-e
letter written by the very noble Earl himself, (Earl of Hills-
borough) accompanying the revenue act, wherein he pledged
himself, by the most solemn assurances, that they were mere
matter of form, and were meant to be immediately repealed,
being intended as a nominal assertion of the declaratory law
passed in 1 766. [Here his Grace was called to order by the
Earl of Hillsborough, who insisted, that the promise con-
tained in the letter v.-iis not broke. }iis Grace contended
31, PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775,
it was, and said he would appeal to the letter' itself, which he
desired might be read. It was not however read.] His Grace
jwoceedcd to recount the particulars relative to that transac-.
tion, how the duties on paper, painters colours, and glas»
were repealed, in a pretended performance of that promise,
while that on tea, the cause of sdl the present confusions, Was
continued. He then turned to the avowed firmness of a noble
Earl, high in office, (Earl Gower) who seemed so willing to
court danger, to face the block, and fall with the ruins of the
constitution, or triumph in its constitutional maintenance.
He comforted the noble Earl with the strongest assurances of
iiis .being in no danger; for it was easily avoided, by onlyat a
convenient time altering his opinion ; to prove which, he
would take the liberty of adverting to a particular fact, which
came within his bwn knowledge. And then he jocularly ob-
served, that however small the minority may appear on the
present question, he had seen as small hourly increase till it
became the majority; and then told the following anecdote^
which happened when Iiord Bute was at the head of the trea-
sury, to prove it : "I rqaember, says his Grace, at that pe-
riod, a bill was brought mto this House to prevent the mem-
bers from being screened from their debts; — I heartily ac-
ceded to this bill upon principle, and had the honour of bdng
Joined by the noble Lord then at the head of the treasury. On
the division the noes as usual went below the bar; when, mis-
sing their leader, they turned short, and were much sur-
prised to see him on the other side." The late Charles
Townshend remarked upon this circumstance, that he would
hold two to one, in less than a year those very members who
divided against him, would creep under the table to join him.
Had he been taken up he would have won his wager. He next
reminded the noble Earl (Earl Gower) of a -circumstance of
his docility, which came more directly home to him, as being
personally concerned. It was in the year 1 766, before Christ-
mas, when a noble friend of his (the late Duke of Bedford)
made a motion for taking into consideration the state of the
nation. He doubted not but the noble Earl was to the full as
ready to face the Uock then as now, in support of what he
deemed his duty; but what was the consequence? The noble
Earl, the author of the present bill, having in the interim
met him at Bath, and having had some conversation with
him, the Parliament was adjourned to the day after the state
of the nation was to be taken into consideration; all en-
quiry was 9t an end, and the ruition left to shift for it-
self.
A. 1775- D E B A T IS. '33
The Duke of Manchester lamented^ in a very seasible man*
iier» the present situation of affairs, the dangerous conse*
quences of a civil war, which he feared would terminate aa
■the social war among the Romans did, in the inevitable de*
stniction of the whole empire. He was moderate, pathetic^
and drew the attention of every side of the House. He did
not pretend to determine on the contents of the present biU^
nor adopt it throughout ^ all he wished was, that one sober
view should be taken of the great question, before perhaps we
blindly rushed into a scene of confusion and civil strife, the
event of which it was impossible to foresee.
The Earl Temple said, mat he had never given, in public or
private, a decided opinion, whether it was wise or not to pass
the stamp act; but that he was abundantly convinced that all
the evils and distractions now complained of, were derived
from the &tal repeal of it. That tne bills of last year were
tqforc exceptionable as to the mode than as to the matter. He
said nothing with regard to the contents of 'the bill which had
been read, and finished with expressing his disapprobation of
rejecting in so harsh and unprecedented a manner, a bill de-
signed for the most ^utary purposes, and presented to -their
Lordshqps, by a hand so truly respectable as that of his noble
fi*iend and relation. This reason alone deciding upon his
vote.
This debate lasted till almost ten o'clock, when the ques*
tion being put, there appeared for the Earl of Sandwich's
amendment. Contents 61, Non-contents "32; so the bill was
rejected, and not suffered to lay upon the tablie.
The minority were,
£)ukes of Cumberland Earb of Temple
Richmond Radnor
Devonshire Spencer
il^ortland Chatham
Manchacter Lords Abergavenny
Northumberiand. Ferrers
Marquis of Rockingham Craven .
£arls4{ -Stamford Romney
Abingdon I^ug
Scarborough Fortescue
Chohnoadeley Ponsonby
Sts^ord Lyttelton
; T«|JberviUc Wycombe
> . ' fltan^opc Sondes
^ £i^^]^]Mm Milton
\ Fitzwiliiam Camden.
Vol. IL D ^eVrw^
34 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
February 7. '
Lord George G^ermaine, accompanied 1>7 about twenty
membefs of the House of Commons^ delivered a message at
the bar of the Lords, desiring a conference with their Lord-
ships in the Painted Chamber. His Lordship then withclrbr
ior a few minutes, and being called in again, was informed
tktt their Lordships would immediately atteild. The Lord
Keeper next proceeded to call on such Lords as were willing
to meet the Commons, in order to manage the said conference
in behalf of the Lords, when the following, among several
bthersj attended accordingly : Lords Gower, Sandwich^
Dartmouth, Denbigh, Plymouth, Cathcart and Townshend;
the Duke of Grafton, and t£e Bishops of London and Pe-
terborough. In a few minutes their Lordships returned, and
the Lorcf President [Earl Gower] reported, that the mana«
gers for the Lords had met the managers for the Commons at
a conference, which on the part of the Commons was ma^
jiaged by Lord North, who acquainted the managers for the
liOrds, that they had taken into consideration the state of his
Majest/s colonies, in North America, and had agreed upon
an address to be presented to his Majesty, to which they de-
sired the concurrence of this Hpuse. Then his Lordship
read the address delivered at the conference. — And the same
being again read by the Clerk,
[The address, and the debates upon it, in the House of Com-
mons, may be seen in the first volume, page 136 to 174]
The Earl of Dartmouth and the Marquis of Rockingham
both rising to speak, a debate arose who should i|peak fim.
In this confosion the Lord Keeper [Lord Apsley) put the
Question, " Is it your Lordships pleasure that the Earl of
)artmouth be now heard?" This called up the Diidceof
Richmond, who contended, that it was a most slavish position
to say, that any Lord in that House should have a preference
' b^ore another; and that the preference should be determined
by the House. Lord Mansfield replied, that he had always
imderstood it was in the option of the Chairman, in either
House (the Speaker in the other, and the Lord Keeper ia
this) to so far decide, as at least to put the question on wfaiclt-
of the two persons he pleased. To prove this, his Lordship
cited an instance in a committee of the House of Commons
on the Spanish convention' in 1739, when two members ris*
Vig at the same instant, to make motions of a direct contrary
(tadency, Mr. Winnington, the chairman, pointed to one
of them in preference to the other, which gave birth to Ac
irirt/ observation of Mr. Fulteney, afterwards Eaxi (^ Badi»
in
A. 1775- DEBATES. 3^
in the course of the debate, " That the Chairman had made
the deadest point he ever saw in his life." Lord Camden
urged the necessity and justice of their previously accepting
the petition of the merchants, which he understood the noble
Marquis had to present, and hearing the merchants allega*
tions: he told the House, they not only sat there in their re-
' presentative, but in their judicial capacity, and were there-
fore bound by all the ties of official duty, to get every light
and information upon the stibject before them; otherwise^
their coming to a determination could not be acting in the
: spirit of the constitution. He pressed them but for a day,
which would not create any delay, and in that time he had
no doubt their Lordships would receive that solid information
founded on the truest proofs, commercial experience; which
would, perhaps, influence their Lordships to think difierently
, from what they then did. Earl Gower insisted that such a
mode of proceeding was totally unusual and unparliamentary;
that very early in life, much about the period the noUe and
learned Lord [Lord Mansfield] alluded to, he remembered a
circumstance which came directly in point; it was on an in-
tended motion of the late Lord Halifax's, when the Lord
Keeper decided against him, that another noble Lord should
be first heard. [In all this hurry and confusion, the true
point on which the preference contended for rested, seemed
to be entirely mistaken, till the Earl of Denbigh observed,
that the preference was with the noble Earl, out of the re-
spect due to the other branch of the legislature.] The ques-
tion was at length put, and the motion was carried without
a division.
The Eat»l of Dartmouth accordingly rose, and after putting
in his chiiti to be heard to the question at large, moved, that
the blank in the address presented by the Commons at the
conference/ and -now communicated by the Lord President,
should be filled up with the words " Lords Spiritual and Tem-
poralx and" '
The Marquis of Rockingham acquainted the House, that
the'toatter which he rose to was to present petitions, one
• from the^ merchants of London concerned in the commerce
to North America, and the other fi-om the West-India mer-
chants and planters; that he imagined their contents were
of the highest importance, wer^ immediately relative to the
• business under con^deration, and were well worthy of arrest-
ing any determination of this House, for at least one day,
\ benn^ certain, that within that short period, information of
. Infiznte tonscqiience would be laid before their Lordehips, per-
4^' .Da \i3?j^
36 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
haps sufficient to alter, or at leasit soften the rigour of the
measures they were now madly, hastily, and blindly proceed-
ing to adopt. His Lordship then desired the petitions might
' be read, "which being complied with, he observed, as a ques-
• tion was now before the House, that must be first disposed
tf'j ted as con^quently the subject matter of petitions CovHd
-'itcit regutely come under the cognizance of die House; and
that he stiH ^oped the House would be willing to hear die
'^Moncrs, as men sutfering xmder die heaviest misforttiftcs,
iidne of ^tch -could be attributed to their own miscor(du(ft»
lie would be tinder the necessity, as the only means left, of
irhivifig die. jrevious' question, which would open a door "for
'^■fcihg fefto consideration a general state of the petitioners
'^fcvances. Tht previous question was accordingly put, and '
'Sis LbrdsMp proceeded. He observed, that until the previous
•<^totioh was 'first disposed of, he could ncJt regularly enter
Sito a discussion of the address; but ht would, nevertheless. In
this stage of *the businfess^ assure the Hbusfe, that^ere was
t3fhe pax^graplh in it, which he totally disclaimfed, and deslired
to be tfrtderst'ood, neither to have act or part in, that W^,
*>iWi^e bbtli Houses Wtt-fe to k^sure his Majesty, they wotild,
iti 'suripbit of ike measures therein recommended, hazard
NSfeir wcs and fortunes >; for he noW openly declsCred, he
Wftuld nfeithdr risque nor hazard life or fortune in such a
xiiisc. He said the noble mover adverted to something ■Whidi
"Ife -did riot perfectly undei-stand, about tuianiihity. If ^ery
than who opposed this address, were presumed to be actuatdl
l)y*rr$e iiotlons of -popularity or fectioiis motives, he 'believed
four-fifths of the nation would fall under that predicamcrit;
Imt this he could an^er for hintself, a\ all evients, that he
'»i6iria ^6t trfead in the steps of his noble, but ill-fatfed an-
tifetbr, jTjbrd Strafford] who first dourted popular fevOtft-,
Slid thien dfesdted the cause he had embarked in; for'as he
had set 6ut by supporting the cause of the people againtt the .
tyranny and arbitrary measures of ministers, so he Should
■iitcver, for^ny temptation whatsoever, desert or betray them,
bttt Woufii persevere to the very last, in endeavouring to '6b-
tain for 'them a full reparation tor all the injuries thfeyhaci sus-
tained, y
The Earl Pcfnfret contended, that the sea "i^s otlr jfllopdr
demerit; was against a land war, and strenuously utrgeB.
die hecissity of sending a naval force sufficieiitto block C^
their harbours, and by that means to cut off their ccwtunuto-
Ndation with ^11 other powers, and put a'total Stop'to dicbr
A. .1775- DEBATES, 37
TliMB Earl of Denbigh united ki &is opiuioQ oq gonoral prinr
ciplcs, but insisted that a milit^xy force would be jpecessary for
the protection of his JJ^j^ty's loyal subjects, who would b^
otherwise exposed to t]^e f\iry ^d violence of tl^ijeir merciless
persecutors.
Earl G<ywer adhered closely to the ixmne^iate question ber
fore dbto House, the propriety of entering intp. an inunediat^
examioyation 9f the matter contained in ^h^ ^titions intended
to be, presented by ^e noble Marquis. He s^idj the petitioners
were persons who deserved every mark of attention and rcr
spect vhich the House coujd pay them, c^jrisistently vith the
interests of the empire at large i and althoi^h ^eir grievances
were imaginary, their compuints were ^vertheless deserving
of indulgence. He trusted, however, when they maturely
considered that the s^eps now taken were to prevent the return
of such evils ifi futiyre, they would ch^rfully acquiesce in
the wisdom of psMrliament in the presq^t instance, and he
gratefully thankftd hereafter; for if th^ supremacy of the fer
gislature was once given up, their trade, commerce, and
every possible advantage accruing from either, would soon bp
Annihilated. He ther^<jre hopea, that the merchants would^
on the present occasion, submit to a tempo^^^ inconvenir
ence, n^y a short-lived distress, to insure the most permanent
and important benefits-, and manifest that decree of n:fagnap
nimity which a sense of their own interests, loui;xded in subr
mission and acquiescence to the wisdom of Parliament, must^
upon mature consideration an^ past experience, most certainly
suggest.
Lord Mansfield said, it was impossible to con^ne the atten?
jtion of the House merely to the matter of the previous ques-
tion. He perfectly coincided in sentiment with the nqb}?
Earl, who asserted, that we were reduced to the alternative of
adopting coercive measures, or of for ever relinquishing ouf
claim of sovereignty or dominion over the colonics; for con-
sider the question in ever so many lights, says his I^dship^
every middle way, every attempt to unite the opposite claims
of the contending parties, ends, and is ultimately founded i|i
one resolution or the other. His X^prdship observe^, that one
of the most able American writers, .aner the fullest and
clearest investigation of the 'Subject, at last confesses, that np
medium can possibly be devised, which will exclude the inr
evitable consequence of either system absolutely prevailing^
iipr that take it up on which ground you woi^d, the suprer
m^cy of the Britisn legislature must be compleat, entire, and
iincondkion^) oj on the.qther l3tinA%, t!|pk^ \;^T2i^ x&sd&V ^^
38 P A R L I AMEN T A R Y A,' 1775^/
free and independent. His Lordship next proceeded w exf ;
amine very minutely the several acts of parliament complained '
of in the congress which assembled at Philadelphta, and en-;
dealvoured to prove, that every one of them, more or less,
con£rmed the principles he had laid down, and the conclu-
sions he had drawn from them; and directly struck at the le-? ■
gislative superintending power, which it was contended ttey:
were willing to submit to, not barely to the subject of tax'af-
tion. He more particularly adverted to the acts for the
establishing the admiralty courts in that country; for regiir
lating the rates of postage of letters; for ordering persons
in any part of the dominions of the crown to be tried in any]
English county, for being charged with setting his Majesty's .
dock-yards on fire; for the quartering of soldiers, and one
or two more of the same nature; any one of which, if re-
pealed, would be a^total renunciation of the sovereignty;
even, if the other proposition were true, that we had no right
to tax them. But that claim of non-taxation, it was,, he
said, that introduced all the rest; if the doctrine was a just
one in any instance, it must of inevitable consequence ex-:
tend to all the rest; for it was to the last degree monstrous
and absurd to allow they had a right distinct from the Bri-
tish legislature in aiiy one particular, and not in all : if they
had such a right, the defence of it would Justify resistance;
and to contend that subjects had a right of resisting the go-
vernment, was a doctrine he should be glad to hear maintain-
ed, on any principle of civil government, reason, expe^
rience, or common sense. This led his Lordship to the sub-
ject of the petitions ; but he contended, that they did not
at all come in the way of the present motion. He did not .
doubt but the petitioners were aggrieved; he did not doubt
but they laboured under great and singular distresses; he
did not doubt but every degree of men, the landed gentle-
man-, the merchant, the manufacturer, the mechanic, would
all heavily feel, in their several situations, the threatened
calamities. Nay, he went further, he did not promise cerf
tain success from the present measure. The army might
proceed to hostilities, they might be defeated, the Ameri-
cans might prevail, we might be for ever stripped of the so-
vereignty of that country; but what of tliatr the events of
war were uncertain,: the question was, allowing all the in-
conveniencies as set forth in the petitions to be precisely just,
and taking into foil contemplation every possible contingency
that human foresight and prudence co\]id suggest, whether
nre should reJinqiiish our rigbts, 'Oi xc&oW^ -^ ^^m\s xaxit-
A* J 775* DEBATES,^ 39
solutdv persist in their assertion? His. Lordship again return*
ed to his former argument, of the acts they had protested
against^ and •observed^ that though he was not present wheb-
a nobk Lord on a former occasion [Lord Chatham] had in*
sisted, that in return for their temporary suspension and con-^
9tant repeal, he would insist on the most unequivocal declara-
tion on the part of Ameria^ of the supreme legislative* con-
troling power of the Britidi legislature, in every other case
whatever, but that of taxation only, he could not help re-
markingj that they avoided every declaration equivocal or
unequivocal; for all they promised in return, was to consent to
die act of navigation, while they were boldly contending for
the repeal of every one act almost which was to give that
great constitutional law the least force or effect, lie next
proceeded to prove, by a variety of argimients, that the co-
lonies were in actual rebellion; insisted on the right of the
mother country over the colonies; doubted of the expediency
of taxing now, on account of the repeal of the stamp actv
but' said it was utterly impossible to say a pliable on the
matter of expediency, till the right was first as fully ?8^
serted on one side, as acknowledged on the otbdr. He loudly
condemned die bad policy of laying the taxes on in 17675
and laid all our present trouUes aild political confusions at
that door. He said it wa§ the most absurd measure that could
possibly be imagined, for all the purpose it answered was, at
once* to throw the colonies into a ferment and ill-humour»-
and to hurt the coipmerce of Britain, byfurnishihg die Am&i
ricans with a temptation to smuggle; that is, loading our
own manufactures with duties, and permitting other powers
to supply the American markets with the same commodities,'
without paying any.
Lord Camden took up the last noble Lord on his asser-
tion, that the colonies were in rebellion. If rebellion an4
treason meant the same thing, he would be bold to say tfa^
colonies were not in rebellion. He said he knew no spe*
cies of treason, but those described by the statute of the 251*
of Edward the Third, which were, levying war within the
realm, or compassing or imagining the death of the King*
He owned that there were mfimy precedents in the books of
constructive treason, where certain acts of an atrocious na-
ture were adjudged and referred to one or other* of those |
but he contended that no one act hitherto committed in
America canie within any of those precedents. He said^
constructive treason was a dang^ous things the rule should
, D 4 "^
40 PARJ.IAMEHTARY A* it7fi
be certais md definite; for were it otherwise, no lam «9iM
tell where it would epd, as the lives md. propertief of tl)#
subject would be then at the mercy of the judgei tbt
culprit would then suffer at the will of the judgej nol \^,
the spirit or the letter of the law. He iasisti^, he h^ m
Cat and good a judge as ever 'sat in Westminster JfajH^
rd^Hale, to support him in this <miuont who, after U19W
ing down the taw o^ Edward the Third,. and the eiqiQSH
tions of it in the several decisions of his predecessors, assertsg
ia the most absolute and unreserved terms, that nothii^
fhould^ be deemed treason, by any parity of reasoning ot
aimilanty of circumstances, unless it came expressly within
iJie statute or the intcrjpretation of it, as laid down in tb«
several decisicms which had been given since the passing of
the law. He added, on this head, that the wisdoflEi of ibm
framers of it, had provided for any mischief that might ariset
by directing the judges to apply to Pvliamoiit for their ad*
vice, should spy new case arise which did not coiae withiit
the word^ or obvious meaning of the statute. He ne^ ^ re*
plied to the noble ^nd kamed Lord, as bdng seemi^^Ijp
involved in the fcnsure passed on the administration which
consented ta lay the dutic0A one of which (that on tea) was
BOW the origmal cause of i;he unhappy disputes s^bsisdpm
b^ween Great^ritain and the colonies^ He utterly dis«
claimed having t^e least hand in that measure; said he wae
liot consulted in the framii^ the law which laid on fhost
duties, and that he was at the time closely and laboriously
employed in discharging the weii^ty functions of his offiee%
,He next entered into a very fiiU and detailed view of iMk
the previous and detailed question;, he said he was astonvdied
to hear a noble Lord, in the course bf the debate^ advise
the very extraordinary measure of Uoclnng up the Ame-
rican parts» and thereby preventkig them from all ce«W
merce vdutever. He ob^ervcij^ th^t sending an army thi^p
ther in a hostile manner, was insanity the £rst; but weE!#
the present proposed measures adopte4> it would indeed bo
insanity the second. It wc^ld be no less than a political ^fik
dt se; and wpiikl be hke a man, who^ to be revenged of «
person that lie si^ipeied had inJ9iy«4 him, should sheath %
poQiard in hi? ipwn bosomf P^ dEMpafierce, says his Lord-*
ship, is af fmce the source of our wealth and pur power 1
it both gives us sea^nen to man our fleet?, and money tq
pay them-, .without commerce this island, when compare4
miih maokj cgmtsm fo the €Ofltuaeal> is bit a small insig^
id&cant
A.ITJ5* ^ *^ B A T E S. 41
i)i£qaxit spoti it is firo^i our comiherce alone tfaat we are
intitled to that coxitsequence wc bear in the great ppUtical.
scsde. When compre^ with several cf the great powers of
EuropeA Englanclj) m tjhe worcU gf Shakespeare, being no
more than a bird'a ^est floating on a pool. What, diens
WPiild be thje consequence of adqmng so wild and danger
rous- an expedient ? We should neither have ships to de«
fex^A us, seamen to man them^ nor n^oney to pay thenv, and
we mv$t oi course fall a prey to the &st in^aikr; for both
the nteans of defence^ and the sources which were wont to
support it, -would be at once cnt'off. He said, every engine
had been set to work, and art assayed, to prejudice the
l^ded interest, and distinguish it on the present occasion
from. the commercial, as if the latter could sustain any in-
jury that the other must not equally fed. What roee the
value of the lands but commerce? What supported com»
mprce again but the lands P — ^their interests being as insepa^r
i^^hle as the benefits they derived from each other were mu-
tual and reciprocal. He concluded generally on the high
$Qunding» unintelligible phrases of legislative supremacy dxkd
parliamentary omnipotence; but> for his part, they conveyed
to his mind precisely such an idea, and gave equal satisfaction^,
as the answer given by the ime gentleman in the play, who^
being charged with baseness by his friend, who told him ho
had eat his meat, drank his wine, and lain with his wi£e^
mado no other reply, at the end of every sentence, but^ ** Sir»
I wear a sword."
The Duke of Grafton fosc with great warmth, and after
observing (hat his ideas on this important subject did not C9*
incide mdx whaf. had. been urged from any^ide of the houjief
and that be meant to reserve his opinion till the great ques-
tio% with all its; several relations and c^dlateral circumstances^
came to be taken into consideration md finally decided on^
animadverted with no small degree of acrimony and resent«»
fnent on the conduct of the two learned and noble Lords
who preceded, him. Of the htter [Lord Camden]^ he in**
{listed it was mean, and mi)ch beneath the dignity of one who
^acted in the exalted statioa he did, at the time the dutidi
^w mentioned were unposed, to cokne at . this time to screen
himsdf from the disagreeable coi^sequences that measure pror
duced, and shift the blame cff his owja shoulders to lay it on
those of others, whom he was perfectly convinced, and fully
eonscipus, had no more particular hand in it than his Lord<«
llhip» ')^j^jMasur^aa(fi»l|iftGnic%wa$cwsc^
42 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
m ibt 'cabinet. The noble Lord acquiesced in it, he sat in
that chair, (pointii^g to the Lord Keeper's)* while it was pass-
ing through this House in its several stages. The learned
L^d was the very person who signified the royal approbation
of this law in his official capacity, under the seal of his office;
;md shall he now come to tell this house, and the public, that
it passed without his approbation or participation r He then
observed, that matters which had passed in that House were
frequently misrepresented without doors j but he was glad of
an opportunity of testifying to the public that it was no mea-
sure c^ his, perhaps it was contrary to his judgment; but he
reserved his sentiments on that subject to a future occasion ^
as what he meant now was, that let the measure be good or
bad, all hi wished was, that every cabinet minister, who acted
and deliberated in- that capacity, at the time of passing that
hw, should equally share the censure, if it was a bad one, or
be entitled to an equal claim of merit, if it were a g6od one.
In reply to the other noble and learned Lord, he said, he to-
tally differed from him, as to the commercial eflFect of that law;
for if the law itself was wise, and the principle it originated
from expedient and equitable, the regulftion was certainly no
less so; for there was no other possible mode of enforcing the
declaratory law, internal taxation being totally abandoned by
the repeal of tlie stamp-act, but by laying on post-duties. And
he knew of none, against which the noble Lord's objections
would not lie as fcwribly as those proposed to be levied by
the act under consideration. He lamented the misfortune that
the administration he was connected with, was the only
one who wanted the assistance of the noble and learned Lord.'
He was certain that some of the preceding ^administrsttions
had profited of his great abilities; and though he was de-
prived^ of the support which might be derived from such
sage counsels, he was happy that the nation experienced the
good effects, in the aid he had given to some of the admini-
strations which preceded the one in which he was concerned/
and perhaps, nay probably, the one that succeeded it.
Lord Mansfield feeling this as a direct attack, implying an
interference in the public councils, endeavoured to excul*
pate himself from the charge. He said, he had been a cabi-*
net minister part of the late reign, and the whole of the pre-
sent; that there was a nominal and an efficient cabinet;
that for several years he acted as a member of the latter, and
consequently deliberated with the King's minister; that
however, a short, time previous to^thc admmistration in which
A. 1^75- DEBATES- 43
the noble Marquis presided at the head of the treasury,* and
soine considerable time before the noble Duke succeeded him
§n that department, he had prayed his Majesty to excuse him ;
and froni that day to the present he had declined to act as an
efficient cabinet minister. He said, he had lived with every
administration on equal good terms;, and never refused his.
advice when applied to ;. that particularly the noble Marquij
miist recollect ms giving him every assistance his poor abili-
lities iiirerc capable of affording; nor was it his fault that
noble Duke did not experience the same ; for had he been ap-
plied to, he would have chearfully rendered him every assist-
ance in his power. That he had not changed his opinion
pii the present subject, he appealed to every side of the House;
for when the repeal of the stamp-act was brought into it,
though he wished to give the measures of government every
support, consistent with his judgment and his public duty, yet
forseeing the consequences exactly in the same light they have
fince turned out, he voted against it ; but assured the House,
that he took no other private or ostenfiblc part whatever in
that business; andso careful and studious was he to avoid the
least appearance of any thing of that kind, that he even re-
turned a proxy that was sent to him againt the repeal, sooner
than seem to take any public part against the King's servants.
His Lordship likewise apologized to the noble Duke, and as-
sured him^ that he.had not the most distant intention of pass-
ing any censure on any measure pursued in the administra-
tion in which he acted; so far firom it, that he highly ap-
proved of putting the declaratory law into execution ; all he
at most insinuated was, that the present minister's plan was
much better calculated for giving it effect; as it at once
destroyed the temptation to smuggle, by reducing the duty
from one shilling to three pence ; for who would risque his
whole property against such a trifling duty? orhow^^asit
possible that the smuggler could come to market upon equal
terms, under all the circumstances attending that trade, with
the fair importer.
The Lord Wycombe^ (Earl of Shelburne) after taking a ge-
neral view of both the previous and main question, respecting
the propriety of hearing the petitioners, ahd the madness of
a civil war, upon every ground of justice, prudence, and sound
policy, in a very able and comprehensive manner, said h,e hoped
the day of enquiry and public retribution would come, when the
author of the present dangerous measures would be discovered,
and of that despotic system which hfs governed our councils for
44 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
some years past) clearly developed. Candour obUged him to
testify to the conduct and sentiment of the noble JDukCf that
he was averse to the measure i and the day it was brought ii^
as part of a money bill from the other Hoyse, never rqiQ to
suj^rt it, as the strongest mark of his disapprobation* Hi^
was certain the noble and learned Lord equallv disapproved
of it ; and) for his own part, who had then tne honour of
occupying a very high post in administration^ his sentiments
were too well kiown to call for explanation^ Jie §aid fur-
ther, that his situation gave him an opportunity of knowing
the sentiments of a very high Personage j and he could affirm*
from his own knowledge, that they were extremely favour-
able towards America. It was therefore a matter well worth
knowii^, and extremely deserving of enquiry, how this im- •
expected change iwas effected, and by what over-rulin?, fetal
influence this great empire was brought to the eve of- being
plunged into all the miseries and horrors of civil war*
The Lord Lyttelton rose next, and contended for the ^ni-
ipersality and imity of the British empire over all its territories
and dependencies, wherever its domination extended. He
was severe on the noMe and learned Lord [Camde^i] who
^ke so frdly on the dangerous consequences of constructive
treason. He asserted those little evasions and distinctions
were the effects of professional subtlety and low cunnin|r •
that it was absurd to the last degree to enter into such flimsy
observations on this or that particular phrase QT word, and
thence draw deductions e<]jually puerile and inconclusive^
that the colonies were not m rebellion. For his part^ he
should not s^bide by such fer-fetched interpretationSjj he would
be guided by common sense, and only consult the papers on
the table, to prove beyond question, that America was vfi re-
beilion. What ! .will any noble Lord in this Housb rise, and
tell ijje seriously, that a country is not in rebellion when it
openly disclaims all obedience to the laws, all dependence oe
the legislature ! when they offer to appropriate the public
monies to the very means of resistance f when they prevent '
the courts of justice from assembling, and the counseUors ap-
pointed by the Crown from acting ! Will any noble Lcur^ji
pretend to say, tharany or all of those ^e not memifest acts cJF
rebellion ? or that it is not treason in every obvious, substanr ,
tia), and l^al meaning of the word, to attack one of the King's
fortresses, make his troops render it up, and seize and cdnyert
the King's stores to the direct puiposes of openly resisting hi9
l^al authority by force of ^rms ? Are thes^ acts 6f the most
fl^pwt
A. 1775. DEBATES. 45
^iagrallt rebellion and treason ? or are they, according to the
itigenions doctrine and legal language of the noble and. learned
Lord, btily to be construed mere misdemeanor or ifelony?
His Lordship text entered into a very spirited defence of his
noble and learned friend, who spoke on the same side, and
dealt his blows very liberally on all those who had attacked
him. . He bestowed the highest encomiums on his talents,
integrity, and political cdnduct ; and charged his accusers
with being weak and evil counsellors, no less in their general
sentipients than in their personal attacks. He recurred to
his former arguments, and contended without reserve for the
legislative supremacy of Parliament over every part of the
British dominions in Atnerica, the East and West Indies, in
An-ica, in Asia, in every part and quarter of the globe, naj
over Ireland itseff, if it should become necessary 5 die right of
taxation and legislation being ihdivisible and unconditional*
over every t)lace to which our sovereignty extended.
The Duke of Richmond condemned, in the most pointed
and direct terms, what his Grace called the inflammatory
and^ in-grounded representations of the leafned and nolde
Lord. He said it was very unbecoming the gravity and dig-
nity of his situation, and of the several high relations he stood
in to the state, to endeavour to inflame and mislead at so
alarming a crisis. He observed that the noble Lord had la-
boured all in his power to prove the colonies in rebellion^
but for tis part, he did not perceive that he used one solid
arguinent iti proof df this cruel assertion : ^n assertion, iir
every view of it, big with ihe most horrible and direful conse*
quences ^ an assertion which, as soon as sanctified by a vote
bf both Houses, authorised every species of rapine, plunder,
massacre, and persecution whatever. His Grace then turned
*to the consideration of constructive treason; and observedt
that the noble and learned Lord and his friends ought to be
the last to approve of lax and indefinite interpretatioils .of trea-
sons, as it might, on some future day, open a door for obtain--^
ing of substantial aiid eflfectual justice on those who, through
the whole course of their lives, had been as sedulous to evade
the law, as thoy were industrious to l^reak it. He entered
folly hito the propriety of postponing the^ontents of the ad-
dr^ ; and at least listening to hear what the petitioners had
'to oStt. It Would be decent to pay some degree of attention
*fo 'to respectable and useful a body as the merchants; and
though iflo petition had bisen preserite'd, it would be manifestjf
indecent) and totally derogating from the dignity of that
46 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
House, to blindly and implicitly adopt the present measure^
without examination, deliberation, or enquiry. This night's
debate*, he confessed, brought back strongly to his mind what
had often been the subject with hinx of great astonishment and
serious consideration. The measure which had been ori^-
nally the cause of our present dangerous situation, was now
openly disavowed by three cabinet ministers, then occupying
the first departments of the state. They had, each of diem,
he remarked, solemnly declared it was no measure of theirs,
■ jointly or separately ; one of them [Lord Shelburne] has . as-
sured us, from his own knowledge, that it did not seem to be
agreeable to the sentiments of a Great Personage. Whence
then, says his Grace, are we to suppose it originated ? I will
. not say that the noble and learned Lord knows 5 but this I wiH
venture to remind his Lordship of, that when I came to o£Bce
I saw several foreign dispatches, on the margin of which
were written observations in that noble Lord's hand writing.
,1 need not tell his Lordship, but I shall take the liberty to
inform the House, that the correspondence with our foreign
ministers, at a. convenient time, is sent round in little' blue
boxes to the efficient cabinet ministers; and that each of
them give their opinions on them in writing. These are the
opinions and the observations I now allude to. His Grace
besides, in the course of his speech, condemned very severely
the acts respecting America, passed during the last session, par-
ticularly to that which gave a new power to the sheriffs, un-
known to the constitution; that of creating what lie called
pocket juries \ and the other, which, if possible, is of a much
more dangerous tendency, preventing ?11 meetings, under the
' penalties of high treason 5 for if it be treason to resist an act
of the British parliament in the manner now contended for,
it must of jconsequence be treason to assist at the assemblies,
' which the bill for altering the charter positively prohibits.
The Lord Mansfield rose in great warmth: he said he
could hardly bring himself to believe the several insinuations
thrown out on the other side of the House could be dk'ected
at him ; yet, on the other hand, if they meant ainv thing, lie
knew not otherwise how to interpret them. Ir they were
intended to be imputed to him as a crime, they missed their
aim, for in his opmion they had perhaps undesignedly Hone
him the greatest honour. "What do their Lordships insinuate,
that I have been the author of the present measures, and it is
I that direct them? I should be proud to own them if it were,
because I think them wise, politic, and equitable ; but surely
' 8 thejr
A.177S- -DEBATES. 47
they will pamut me to repeat again, that I have been a no-
tnmal cabinet minista- part of the last reign, and the whole
of the present i that I was an efficient cabinet minister during
part of both periods ; but that since the time before alluded
to in this debate, I have had no concern or participation what-
ever in his Majesty's councils.* Threats ar^ thrown out, and
^Enquiries predicted : t heartily wish they may be speedy ; I
am prepared for them, and put their intended authors to the
m'^st utter defiance. It has been urged against me as a crime
to-day, that I have courted popularity. I never did court it,
but I have always studied to deserve it. Popularity will al-
ways fly the pursuers ; she must follow. I do not mean to
say that I despise it ; on the contrary, I sincerely wish for it,
if not purchased at too dear a price, at the expence of my
conscience and my duty. If a faithful-discharge of one, ^d
execution of thc^ other, be the means of procuring it, I hope
I shall always be a wairm candidate for popular fame. I have
hitherto, to the best of my abilities, acted on that plan, and t
hope I shall persevere to the end. I have seen much of courts,
parliaments, and cabinets, and have been a frequent witness
to the means used to acquire popularity, and the base and
mean purposes to which that popularity has been afterwards
employed. I have been in cabinets where the great struggle
has not been to advance the public interests j not by coali-
tion and mutual assistance to strengthen the hands of govern-
ment ; but by cabals, jealousy, and mutual distrust, to thwart
each others designs, and to circumvent each other, in xjrder
to obtain power and pre-eminence. I have been no less care-
ful to observe the effects of popularity, where it has been
courted and gained for particular purposes ; but where every
engagement was abandoned which led- to its attainment,
when the keeping of them becanje no longer necessarv to the
views of self-interest and ambition. I am threatened ! I dare
the authors of those threats to put any one of them in exe-
cution. I am ready to meet their charges, and am pre-
{iared for. the event, dther to cover my adversaries with shanie
and disgrace, or in the fall, risque the remnant of a life near-
ly drawing to an end, and consequently not worth being very
sdicitous about.
The Lord Lyttelton rose a second time, to defend his noble
and learned friend ; and the JDuke of Richmond in parti-
cular, and one or two other Lords on the same side, having
dwelt much on the probable consequence our present civil
dissension might have on the conduct of France and Spain, his'
Lordship
48 PARLIAMENTARY A. 17^5:.
Lordship pressed the King's servants to declare what stqpt
they had taken to bring these courts to an explanation on
this subject.
Thie Earl of Rochford replied, that be believed the notSd
Lord had spoken by inspiration. He declared he had no sort
of conversation with him relative to the subject, whatever ap«»
pearance it might have of being concierted between them ;
but he thought it extremely fortunate, that the question far*
nished him with an opportunity of acquainting the Hous^
that he had received a letter that very day from the Bang's
minister at Paris, giving him the most full and unreserrol
assurances that the French court would prohibit all commerce '
with the British colonies \ and that should any of the sul]^ect8,
of the crown of Fiance, after such declaration on theirpartj
presume to carry on any trade with America, his most Chris-'
tian Majesty meant to be understood, that they were to be
deemed out of his protection 1 and that the British court
were at liberty to seize the vessels and confiscate their caries.
His Lordship said, that it might possibly be objected to thisde- '
claration, that we ought not to depend on French £uth % and
that probably those assurances were given only with a view of
lulling us into a fatal security \ but he said h^t had every -
reason to believe France sincere, as well by the pacific coun-
sels which at present prevailed in that couhti^r, as from the
permanent policy of both France and Spain, who were de^
termined, on their own account, against countenaticin?/
abetting, or bringing into precedent, a^y measure whioi
might operate as an encouragement to the >colonies in the
New World, to render themselves independent of the pre*
sent state. His Lordship* then referred to a wort lately piib-,
lished in France, wherein it is expressly asserted* thit it*
would be bad policy in the extreme, for France to inter-."
fere in the present disputes between Great Britain and her
colonies. "^
The Lord Jfycomie, [Earl of Shdburne] returned to hw
general charges of a fatal and over-ruling influence. He
observed, it was very extraordinary that the bills passed last
sessions of Parliament, respecting America, were disowned hf
the law officers of the crown ; and who, in the name of Gea/
could have framed them, says his Lordship ?— "We ' cannot,
cannot suppose it was the minister who firamed them. "We
are almost certain that none of the members of administration
drew them up. We know they were fiibricated by some
pencm conversant in the law. It is impossible we can hesi-' *
tatc
A,i77S- ?* ^ ^ ^ '^ E;S. ■: ' 4]^
^e a minute, therefore, to pronounce tliem to Wthie wcxrC
of some hand who is JVifwiUing to own them. T6e loir
officers of the crown, have .disavowed them. Who theii
Seamed . them ? jThe puUk naturally look at a' law lord;
notoriou^iy high in favour . in the cabinet, with whose
^ejoitiments and doctriaes thej perfectly agree. ; Is not diis,
iny Lords, enough to raise suspicions in the most unsuspect**
izig mindi that the King is betrayed, the nation undone, and
the mmistry rendered mere cyphers, to give a sanction to
Si^atem xx- measures) which,: .sooner or later, must be the
rain, of this country, or at least of its constitutional libeiv
dear The. noble and learned Lord has confessed, that though
for .some years Jxt has ceased to act in the character of an
efficient, cabinet, nxinist^r, there was a time when 'it wa^
Otherwjbe ; there was a tiipe when he united in his character
two things in the English constitution the most repugnant
in thejr nature, that of an. acting cabinet minister and a
locd chief jystice of i^ngland. For my part, I always ima*
giii^, a^xording to -Ijie .true principles of this constitution^
that It was the grea^,. pervading principle and excellence
or.it, to }fjoep the ju^ial and executive powers as separate
and distinct as possible, so as to prevent a man from advising
in one capacity what he was to execute in another. I hope
the time will come wha> those matters will undergo a full
and fynp<rt^a1 discussion, without a personal allusion to any
man, when we shsdl be able to point out, with certainty, the
real author of the jxresent measures ; and be at the same time
in£brmed, where the judges in Westminster-hall have kept
widkiQ their own province, and where they have invaded tf e
constitution, by substituting their own prejudiced and partial
minions for the law of the land* In particular, I sincerely*
wish, that means may be devised for leaving the members
of the cabinet, at the time the duties imposed on America
were laid, at liberty to declare freely what they know of that
matter^ so that the real authors may be discovered, and the
feamers of this pernicious fatal measure held forth to public
detestation. The noble and learned Lord has disclaimed
Ip^viag any direct concern in the present business, and endea-*
VOyrs to strengthen his bare assertion, by shewing what little
9r no. temptation he could have to interfere. But the noble
ItfOrd knows, qvery noble Lord in this House knows, a
court has xxiany allurements, besides even place or emolu-*
men)^ Hjs Lcxrdship denies any obligations or personal fa^
vovff vjbatever* I am ready to give his Lordship full .credit
fiir this : declaration ) but he^ill permit me at the same time.
to nbser^ that smiks may <U> a great dea\^ xksx \£ Vc'V^s&j^
50 . . PAKLlAMElJt ART A. 1775:.,
nothing' to $sk for himself^ he has had friends, relations, and
-Scpeni^ts amply provided for : I will not say beyond their
desert^, h\ft this I inay say, much beyond their most sanguine,
expectations. ,: Independent hotv«ver of these considera-
tions, I thiuk . the pride of directing the councils of a great
nation, to certain favourite purposes, and according to certain
preconceived principles; may possibly effect great things, and
tempt to great hiizards, considering the frame and temper- of
some i^ieti's csiinda; . /'.
.• Lord; Afow^W -now rose, ia great passion. He said, he -
thought it had been the leading chai^actcristic of that^asseinJ
My, when contrasted, with the' othef* House, who too often
(tescended to altercations and personal reflections, to always,
conduct themselves like gendemen ; but he was sorry to see
that rule departed from this evening for the first timeV^ He
. charged the last noble Lord with uttering the most cross
ialshoods. He totally denied that he had any hand in mxti-r
ing all the bills of the last session ; and was certain, that
the law officers of the crown never asserted that they had no
kand in them ; but whether they had or had xlot, was of. no
consec^ence to him, for he was clear^.the charge, when
applied to him, was as unjust as it was maliciously and ' in-
decently urged.
Tlie Lord Wycombe [Earl of Shelbume] returned the charge
of falshood to Lord Mansfield in direct terms, he appealed
to the House, whether the words he had used, w^re not,
*• that if among the bills of the last session, there were
some disavowed by the law ofHcers of the crown, it was lia-
tural for the public to look at the law Lord, notoriously high
m favour in the cabinet, to whose sentiments the principles
of those bills appeared fo be particularly adapted, and with
whose doctrines they entirely agreed j" which he called upon
his Lordship to ct>ntradict, if he
The Duke of Rtchtrntid animadverted, in very severe
terms, on an expression which fell in the heat of debate fronr
a noble Lord [Lord Lyttekon]* He said no man could nhr
pute littleness, lowness, or cunning, to any member of that
assembly (alluding to what his Lordship had pointed at Lord
Camden) for delivering his sentiments freely, unless he drew
the picture from something he felt within himself, as, by iV
liberally chai-ging others with low and sinister designs, the
charge could only be properly applied to the person from
whom it originated. His Grace entered into a full considara-
tion of the l^ue purport of what bad fallen from a noble Lor<f
la. office [Lord Roclif0rd] relative to the present language
aad disposition of the French astlX. Ifc «id, iSaa ^asswiVKiei
tiovr. quoted; xtritR so mu<^\iffidal paridr, afid io's&sdhibfjf
btougat UAder cpnslderaticaa, wifliout' s^^ rf
w&e Hfat, t<? bij relfed ori : tKaf thcjr Tfei^.rtrt % !>c cntfrcly
r^ied' on, t^ie noble Lord partly cOTifdkcifVr nwSfi&^^'that'
^ wtre prepared f6r the wojyi i . He slrtuld W/^crabrjf
glad to khow what those preparations consisted-* Jrf ; ^^^^ptra>*
JwSriiotf the; bore to the strength of those^ iiW&6 -^r S^^jccm*
t^ nifght possibly become? oirf adversaries ; tmitiaBoTt* affj Iftf
should be obliged to riie nijhlc Ldi*d, who prided; St' the h^
of' the naval dq&tment, [ip Uj before the Hotls^an anthe**'
tic^ precise state of what'ouf naval force consisted in$.be^
cause he had observed, that on a former im]^ftaiK^t»6c^on)(^
tv^ received the most fiiU and solexxin'assufances, thkt (nj^
navy was on a very respectable footing at the time cif ihcf'dnK
- pute at^out Falkland's island.; yet it was alterwards diioorf^
vered, that we had nbt a single ^ip of Var £t to proceed ta
seiaf. His' Crace then' proceeded to discuss the question at
Wee, reiatiye to our present ujAappy disputes with' Ainericas
arid by the ^eral important l^hts he Jet in: on, the' subject,-
and the variety of. Intqre^titig'&ct^ he adverted to and eluci-
dated, he shewed himself to be very folly and thprouehly in-
foriried of the conduct of th6 contending parties j of me piroi
vocations given on one side, and. the effiicts they produced on
the other; arid, above all, the t<Jtalign,oraricc of adminiftrati<m,
reldtive tothe temper' and* disposition of the colonies.- ; •' .'
The Earl of Sandwid to jzinswer his Grace, appldgize*
fofVisine at that late houf. oiP thij nigKt. he saidj hehid'
employed himself in taking fttotfes' 'the' whole .'evening 5 and:
int^cted, before he went awaV;' to have* cased iimietfof the'
burthen (an expression of Lord ShdBurnc's)5^'biil"as<fce inat*
ter had been already ^o folly discussed, -Ke shbuld not at; so
unseasonable an hour tresjpa§?;:on their ZJordshi^K' paftioiee^
but solely confine hi? reply jji-'tKcinforniation'desiJ^ by tiie
notte Duke, reiatiye to the de^jirtment'^oveip^wtlch hjs^^iHft^'
the hortour to preside. He*" saicf/'whcn he cairi^ to tlic *t'
minlty board, the' navy was in 'the most ruinbus coA'dftioA t^
so. rfluchi that within ' the laist' four years there w^e ii^ les<
thitfl' forty' line-of-battle shijis and 'even iflilfttllfr
confee ofntHe lastyear'; that thef'e.^fas not ^-mohfkxn'ktSkt'
of aiiy tSjd'-ift tht 'prds, 'and vti soiri*, he belkrved,^ ft<*i iti$
vwh ;rSi?d th'Sr'hc did not Iniputt'' the' least Winie to'the
^cat flTid gallant officer* th*e first rft the 'world iff his ptpf«^
sion (Sijr- E^crard Hawke) whbmhe.liadsucce^deja; -cM.iriteP
had retired piirdy .on accbafii, of 'Ms age/'afid ifitoiitte^'
His Lordship ntxt coDtr?^st«3f^e4ffcseht ^(tat^ "M/ ^"^iiK?^-'
Hr Slid, wt hg^'mw nearlf «Sbrs6drc dfi^ tf >Sit>te*i-«Mfc-
jt PARLIAMRJWTART A. 177;.
several npm Iniilding m ihciKiw'^ and maxbints* jwrdu
#itka frpjportkmable .mm^ber cdT inferior rates, all dthor
s^quti clewi ^iipsy/ or vessels newly buik $ that wc had three
JAM3 sca«>nc(j (ifiber in the yardai that all that were not en
actual service, for turned in guardships, were in dock« wfacRt
tJiey could not ifmx with any injury ; that th^ goardahipa
^W^Svrv^iy were uselesss^ in cases of emeigency» not ijp-
xM $t ^ idio ararnor hsmjng rigging, or more dian a thiind
^tbeir ^apxiiplonent of noeny were now ready for amy aer^
icic^ at a £nr days notice^ which he instanced in the year
1773^ ^ }br sapie time we meant to send'a fleet to the Medt*!
teiTa|iean^arhen,ten men of war of the line actually sailed fron^
$]jrfiimt^ within three days after they received their ofders.
Ck Xicpft .i^ormed the House, that there were twenty guank
lifijlfifU^fc of which of the line of battle were on the Americaa
^^tionj-^tj^t wejiad squadrons besides in the East and Wdit-
ludies^- th4 Leeward I^ai^, and Mediterrenean^ tluit alter
sui^i^ntly. providing for those respective services* the naval
force for home protectioh Would consist of seventeen men of
war cf the jfine, besides fiigisites, 7,200 teamen, and 800 ma-
rines ( ^fai^ after the peace of Aix la Chapdk in 17489
om* whole, naval ese^bUshment did not exceed that now re-i
^tcvedfor the d^annd alofue, 8000 seamen> including, ma-,
xiiaes^ being only voted ; and that he would pledge iiimself
to answer all the demands, and co-operate with the inten-
^bns ^ adnninij^ration, w^h only, an augmentation of aqco
mirn. lip fM^i^ fmther on- die same head, that w^ had at
fleet supcriopto^ any t!ut. the uxxnbined force of Fr^ce s|nd.
Sp^ ?cxn4d £t out; that our ships .were all dean^ v^ett
Iirpvidedi riggvrdf and «eady ib. proceed to sea on a fesr-
4ays notice } and that -we had a supply of seasoned tim-t.
ber'Jn oiu^.^l^ai^ equal • ,ta thre^ years consuxnption^.
Tl^t this w^si^a force &lly sufficient to defend us againat any
sfidde^'attacl^/of the combmed fleets of France andSpain^^
thPPgh: hf WAS ^yfeJi ,assqred they had no such intention ^ hut
if ^iqr ha4> we iff^cra prq>ared for. them ; and that. )ie woidd.
i|ow pj^dg^^imself to the House and^thepuWicy jthat witiai^
^ avpnentation of 20Qp ss^unen more, he would msfptf
g^»f|^?Skp^t wjyt^ such a naval force as wcHiid at once protect
i;siit )^)m^ and be su^iqent to enforce its measurei.req>ectiDg
^^s^ctAez* He begged, however, that the House would Aot.
il0(}^rpla|id that he arrogated any peculiar merit . t(k l^imsrif
]!i^^ tp tbe present sjbate of the; navy, compare^* to wh;iit
it was f^Bii]^ was trailed to the bead of t^ fot^
vcrf^Hm^-t^ it'iell. to his share. He ii4 xxptjr^p^fQapiM
HA ^S^4^h ^ was to LordHotUH igp^S^^Sf»M.i^
A. I77f. ' D E*' B 'A T ' E '=8; - ^j
meaHy of w. amply pityv fa iing^for k intkeHoiise; and t6 -his
Lordihipy thcreforCf almost the sole merit irfts4ue# tbaC Mljf
navy wasnowpat onsaretpectabls^aiboting. . '^'O.'
...The Duke of i{fri6m0m/ controverted MVeral'Oftte
laid. down by the noble Early both respecting the di^^rifi^ .
•f the Frendh and Spaniards, azid the fottc luiSidem'to^rd*
aiat them^ should they make any atten^pt dik^i«ie> kifi^dM^
erpsrc an occasion for aruptuKf by their conAiaaitlieAdM^'
rican seas. He again commented very ^y> ob the aniMl'
giiren by the Frendi ministers What does this-^mswcr jitw
port, sift his Grace^ supposing it to be litersdlyifiept M ihlsfa'
part? That if you detect any <^ tibeir &ips trsKling'ii^ck €Ma0
American subjects, we shall be at liberty t& sdee tb«tty-atlftf
confiscate their cargoes. Does the noble Earl pretemtto i^
tttpret this cxphnation generally;^ so as t». authorisse Mf
taking then- vessels at sea? If he does not, what can soehii
vague delodinj^' promise avail t If he does, than I \HU ventiire
to assure Ms Lordship^ thaf he is miserably deceived; and that
the first attempt to prevent French or Spanish ships from lia^
vigatingthe American seas, for pfetences will never be want*^
ing on such occasions, will furnish them with an opportunity^,
of asserting their maritime freedom, of making reprisals, aUd
of justifying their conduct to the other great states of Europe^
who are known to be long jealous of wkit they are pleased to^ .
call our despotic claim to.the sovereignty of the Oce^^ The
noble Earl gives us a melancholy account of the deplorabk,
ruinous state of our navy at the time he came to preside over
our naval concerns. He says our ships were rotten', and Oiar
guardshtps useless. I would be glad to know from his Lord-
Skip, what have been the means eiliployed to woi'k this mittt-
culoiis change. He speaks of ^ many shipsof the fine pro^
ceeding to sea in threip days^ and o( Captain Barrington'#
great merit in that business. No Lord in this house has %
higher opinion of that gentlCTran's merit, as an officerj tbaii
I Sive. I remember welt^ the tiine the roy^ ntfMal review wa<
sit Bonsbionth, that able officer had his ship icWie l^Mirs reddy
to proceed to sea, before the division under the toftimsayi of
afiOble Lotd in this House [Lord Edgcumbc], The noble
Earl Awtk' greatly on tiie manner our guardships ^tc mann^
afid pfbivided; yet I wdl recollect, that in the royal presence
when we tjiay presume every nefve would have been strained.
Act ¥lyibouth. cUvision took above three hours m Weighing.
The apology then made -was, that the ships, had not more tfaaA
kaif thdn^omplementof :men; and I eanaflStiR^tifift CafftaiA
BnpHiigt<m'« ship was the only one which seemed to ^x^ni^x
the W9i(W^pectdtio228 of the spectator*
E3 T:^^
54 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775:
Ti^toixlxi Sandivich replied hiimorotuiy/. in the woids.of
ike old balladi imritten>i as'he.»ad» in the timeof Hcdtj IV.
[Chevy Chase] V I triodt "ice hirye mtny as good as heJ* He
9i$isted>'^th6ut.aQy dilparagexnsnt tathe honourable captain,
there were several. as able officers in the navy is he; that wiiid'
apd'tide, and a variety of circuxAstahces attendant on them^
wepe aot'tiOvbe'COiiunaQded* He assured the noblie Duke, let
thfi'i^oBStqueiiGi^ be what they might) they would not wait fop
t^Fr^ch ships beine in port, or even in with the land; but
would seize them without ceremony in the first instance) 'an4
trust to the event, be it what it might ; administvationbeing dof?
lermined to abide, if neibessary, to enforce the true terms o^
idM; e^p^mation, ia* the sense CHoly it was desired and given.
A^ to the jothfr part, .relative tQ the state of the navy,- and his
i^easons for pronopncing wi^h so much confidence. concemixu^
il, he toldlius X^pble Duke, that the case was now entirely dit^
lorent from whas (t was in tha year 1770; for that towards
thiP ,cQnclusio]!i. of the late . war, when the public, exigencies
c?illed for a powerful fleet, they, were obliged to make use of
green timber, of any kind of timber, in the construction of
out ships of wor^ that those ships r<>tted at the end of five or
3ix years; whereas those built lately would stand thirty, as
(hsy were built -of reasoned timber, - of which we had a large
three years 9tock» and that besides we made use of another
precaution, which was still seasoning the timber while the
$hip wa9 building, by giving orders that no man of war should
be hastily built, or launched in less than three years after she
was put upon th^ stocky.
Bi^op of Peitrhrough. Throughout the whole of this
day's debate, and indeed on every question relative to Ame-
rica, it has: been to me of very serious concern, to see so
much of your. Lordships time taken up in mutual charges and
irecriminationSf . .It is but too evident, that a complicated va-
|iety of very untoward circumstances have combined to bring
preat Britain and her colonies into 90 great difficulty and em-ii
barrasqient, th^t to eauricate ib&fi requires all your Lordships
temper, asVdl as wisdom.
Vet while we have heard, on the one hand, lords, enu^
pent for theif abilitie3 and experience, assert, that the con*
dtitution is violated^ and the saqred rights of o^r fellow-sub-
jects enproaehed upon by principles .of arbitrary power, till
resistance it$elf is thought justifiable; we are assured^ on the
pther^ hv aiuthority no le^ respectable, that opulence an4
feipurity )uve b^Qt a desire pf ipdspq;idenice in 9i|r colonies!
A. 1775: B IE 'ft A TE S. ^
that a spirit of discontent anddisafftction'is gone finth^ ^hicfa'
has been unhappily increased by the arts, and encoungemetit
of some men here at home, under the influence of like pa^';
sionsy till Americans become impatient of "air legal' restraint,'
and determined to break through every tie which has ltithem>
connected her with the mother country^ " - T '.
' I rise; not to trouble your Lordships -as an advocate fcffiS-i
ther .extreme of opinion, but profess that, above- all things', "t:
wish' for reconciliation upoti the very easiest terms that, con-
sistently with the jiist authority and pre-eminence of this
country, can be admitted as a ground of rc-uhion. Yet sen-'
aibie as lam that it is my duty, nor is it less my inclination,
to promote peace, yet cannot I, for fear that our commercial
concerns should suffer a temporary interruption, wish to see
the honour- and lasting prosperity of this country sacrifited to
its temporary interests. For, waving all discussion of thlf
'great constitutional question, whether or not the legislative
supremacy implies or not the right and power of taxation,'
there is to my understanding a very evident distinction be--
tween an internal general tax, and a port duty, upon any ar-
ticle of trade, which the subject is ?.t liberty to purchate or.
not, as he thinks proper.
I am aware, that the advocates for the total indiependeneb
of America have endeavoured to prove, that a duty so raised
is illegal and op^pressive as any other tax whatever; but to.
have made it so, Parliament must have done by the tea in '
America, what is done in France by the salt, have obligied
every family to have bought, not as much as they were 'wil-
ling, but as much os it was thought they were able to con-
s^me.
That there is a power in this country to regulate the trade"*
throughout all the ports of the whole British empire, is what,
I believe, hardly one of your Lordships will contest.
.; It would be of use, therefore, in shortening this debate, to
recollect, that it was for the tumultuous resistance to this ac-
knowledged right of the legislature, that' the port of Boston
was shut up.
'. I am free to own, that there may be an oppressive exer-»
CISC of even an acknowledged righ^ ; but it will be a dilli-
cult matter to bring the duty upon tea under that descrip-
tion. The noble lord [Lord C-^ — n] before me acknow-
ledges, that he made no objection to it at the time it was
laid, dioi^h he was then in the highest department of the
law, with so much credit to himself and satisfaction to the
publics Jie. will. allow> therefore, that there was tio •a.YScax- '
E 4 •KElK.^v^
^ PARIiIAMvENTARY A. 1775^
.s^iifseof il^egilky. in its origin^ i& was aho. moderate in its cs*
^rcisei,.UjiSected iiota oecessary* of rli&»*and left, the Ame*'
ncad consumer of a. foreign luxury in a muck better sitnattcm
tlbtfl V(y- subject in' 6iteat: Britain But admitting that tibe
l^pleiof Bo^tO]C^ either from their.own notions of thematK'
tOT) or from prejudices instilled into themi thought: the cfasNy'
cyontea an oppresaijoa,. it surely was incumbent i» them to
i|a;?6 prescntea a memorial or petition to Parliament} not tw
have invaded private property with . vioknoei nor to ihive
ibraUied the sovereign legislature of Great Bsitain. with^iuKi*
linice and ccmtemptf
^Rqyaratiou/Qught long ago to. Jiave been made ferthtw
dfi^ces^ and it is in ordo* to obtain it that I understand ud^
xjMnistra^on think themselves undera necessity of adoptiii^
coerd?^ measures^ as the only means, to bring about ahutii^
linioiiK
As sblevned lord» £Lord O-Htr-^]. in the course of diia
debate> has taken occasion to censure the two acts which
passed ift the 1^ ae^sion^afrer the Boston port hill> I will bog
your lordships, indnlg^cice while I say a few words to each m
them* 'Furst:» as to the bill ior the impartial administraden of
justice ill fi^u^acluiset's Bay: was I to take my idea of this
t^ friQm. what has faUen from the learned lord, << that faj
cpapling it with tbfi statue of Henry the Eighth, it gave m
full fomff: to bring thecAmericans over here to buteher tbeo^
ip t£e SJnjg's Bench/' I should conclude that it was a bill isw
ppwerklg administration to tear any obnoxious person from haa
tiNife and £unily,; and carry him to a foreign judicature to as^-
^wer for crimen said /to be committed in his own countiyi
. vijipreast in truth, it is a bill of mercy, as well as of justice*^
»vihg security to persons acting under legal powers, that
uysijf shall not» in the discharge of their duty, be subject to
the^ resentment of a factious and deluded populace, who nd«
ther a<^knowledge the laws, nor the authority of the magistrate;
besicles, the bUl is temporary, and respects only the. present
tu^pijtuous state of the province* : . . - .v:
As to the othier bill* for altering the charter of Massachusct*ar
Bay, which the same les^'ned lord represents as an ^orhjitant
abuse of parliamentary power, I will.oidy say, that an aher»-*
tion^ full as material,, in that very charter, was made by
King.WiUiam immediately after the Revolution. Shall it then '
be said, in this House, that it is an abuse of power for the
present King, sitting in his Farluiment, to do an act similar-
to what King William, that great restorer of British free^
dom, didj>;r m tidvic^.^i^.cwwLooIy^l. tlw^g^ comm^.
A. 177/* D SB. AX :H 8^ T ff
tilirtti cofttpdsedof -men tlitt tared liberty » m^ ^id i»i
atanlfid as mach in the prewrvatiab of kj as any sec ofpRriocr
before or since. i -
' As to the papers upoiiToar lordsh^ taUe, itapfearsfroot
Aem to be the general opinicfn of aU tbote who, ^ekher hom
thdbr office, or their sittiattoay at« cl^>abto<lfjtdgii^
be the probable effect of it, that a awady persave w rnce to sap^
port the ri^its of the l^islaturewiU,: kr the mdi btiag^am
Aiitericaens to a just sense of thiiir4iR7 and'tfaeir kMrcat. -
It will then be time for tendernsis and ibrgivoms. '^Mbf
I not add, it will then be time for iad[^nM.«nna^pdpif«
iar prgndiccs, and that idea they are so fond of, the ligfae tf
taxing themselves. :-,.::
&at was Great Britain taoidy to submitni Ae iad^iMii •
^hot have beoi put upon her, ber condeacettiiitowtwkl ddhtff
its very purpose, and be treated as a meanneM attHJftlfiadlly,:
Itinight, indeed, procure peace; but it tiMuldi)dmlydMw^
a(ig ashe^ over the embers, that vrtfM still be bumii^ ttadtK^
fioith; or, like the act of an unskOful surgeon, who heab ^
^ound outwardly, while it is still left fcsfermg witibiti.
IshaU, therefore, give my vote fof this add2«li| notll^J
cause I love coercive measures, though, to a ceirtain dcgrtiev
fkey may become necessary. I approve of- it rathftr,' betoustf
k ^kes the middle way so much recommended by the'aObte
and learned lord; for the steadiness is the me»is, yet retoii*
eSiation is avowedly the end proposed. Reconciliatioff itf
#hat I shall never lose sight of; and I atn pefsUaded thatS?
could your lordships be induced to join unanimously in tfaft'
address, it would speedily bring about what all your lof^dshiptf
•are desirous of, the peace, harmoAy, and lasting prosperity cif
die British emfMre. >
The Duke of Richmond observed, that lit thought it >irai^
^SKtremely imjnroper for the Right Reverend Bench to taker
aAy part on the present occasion, or to be at aU accessary tOr
Ae shedding of the blood of their fellow-creatures and ^oww
subjects. It would be much fitter, if they interfered at aK,'
to act as mediators, than as persecutors; more consistent wi^
the principles they professed to teach; but much more paiv
tieukrly suited to the sacred functions they were called to dia^i^
diarge« He said, that by the specimen now given, he should
not be surprized to see the lawn sleeves upon those benches
Gained with the blood of their innocent and oppressed coun«
ttymte On the other side the Atlantic.
Hhe Duke of Manebester animadvdrted with great energy
Oniilfiwtyiaiium iitt* iaftpf994«M antadt nMc b^ a
|ft P A:r4; I A MJE NT: A iC.Y A- 177 J-
jafAMfhord'tvrlY in dte ddntc HLdrd Iiyttditon}.-on all thofee
whaiiappcned to. differ with; him.- He .said it was a pretty
method of convincing an adversary, to tell him that his oppo-
s'ttcdtito me^sdi'cs was founded; iix the worst motives } and ^^t
tUwrho ehtcrtaimsdiContrary sentiments, to bis own were weak
^Qd wicked counseUorJik ,Such language had been always dis-
coufttenanccdy and he hoped womd always meet widi the
Itrengest marks of discouragement and disapprobation in that
House» as it woukl otherwise banish all sober deliberation and
fires discusaton from within those walls; and introduce in their
stead* thetmost improper persoiialities and disgraceful alterca-'
tions.'::
. The Lord Lyttelton endeavoured to exculpate himself from
theL'chatgds of the twO-noble Dukes. He saidj any thing se-
vere he might have dropped respecting a noble and learned
liotid on the other side, wa^ only upon certain suppositions*
He had not> however, changed his opinion relative to the true
interpretJition of treason, nor could he bring himself to sulv
scribe to his Lordship's definition of it; as the more he
thought on the subject, or heard it argued, the fuller he was
satisned that America was in rebellion. He said, he had a
very high authority to support him (Lord chief justice Foster)
and a real friend to liberty, who enumerates several species of
treason, besides those expressly defined by the statute of the
25th of Edward IIL and lays it down as law, though a con-
sultation to levy war, in which the person of the King is not
aneant to be injured, may appear not to be treason within the
statute of Edward III. yet, that an overt act of one species of
treason may be good evidence to prove an intention to commit
the other.
The Lord Jllamficld assured the House, that he had not
given the least intimation to the noble Lord of what he now
urged ^ but that it was nevertheless the general doctrine lai4
down by those who had written on the subject. He w^ pcr^
sonally. acquainted with the great law authority now quoted^-
who a>?surcd hifn, tje was present in court at the trial of the
olFenders in Qjjeen Ann's time, who pulled down the meeting-
houses, and that Holt, chief justice, and the pest of the court
agreed, that evidcjice of an overt act of one. species of trea«-
!ion.was sufficient proof of an overt act of anotfier spe^ries of
ti^ason. .
. The Ix>rd Camden still retained his former sentiments ; he
entered into a warm eulogium on t;he learned judge allude4.
to: insisted the doctrine now imputed to him was not his;
cffcred tq^ mept the nqj^ie^^^ i^asPOdUfcciri j^^jfee othqr.jActe,
QU
qa tkat grou4d^*and' Fecn^Jccdy that t&e intended bbje^xjf
t|ie.439guage held this day, was to brxng the uiihappy AmBii>
24cpns<o England to be tried> under the act cf Henry YUl.
^d have them butchered in the icing's Bench.^ — Early in the
4eb&te9 Lord Mansfield having said^ that the ministers of the
<^hurchof England were persecuted, by the fimaticks of Bea-
ton) and other parts of New England,- Lord Camden. repr&-
heoided him very severely, for using such inflammatory iiai»-
gojgc. . -
'■ The Earl of Dartmouth closed the debate: he said, that
he approved of the measure j that AmeHca would betendeiiy
and gently treate^i if they -would return to their obedience;
that he was directed by his own judgment, not by Lord
Mansfield's, and that he believed Lord Mansfield was totaUj
unconnected wijth the picesent administration.
The above debate lasted till forty minutes past t)nc o'clock
ia,$he morniQgi when the previous question was put^ Whe-
ther the^iain question shall be now put? >
.' Sr?:}'^-^- NotCcntents,=9.
It was resolved in the Afiirmative. ^
*^ Dissenttenti i
. 1st, The previous question was moved, not to prevett
the prpceedings in the address, communicated at the confe-
rence with the Commons, but in order to present the peti*
tions of the North American merchants and' of the West In*
4it merchants and planters, which petitions the House mi^bt
reject, if frivolous, or postpone if not urgent, as it might
seem fit to their wisdom; but to hurry on the business to
H^hich these petitions so materially and directly related, the
Qlpress prayer of which was, that they might be heard before
** any Resolution may be taken by this right honourable
House respecting America,"' to refuse so much as to suffer
them to be presented, is a proceeding of the most unwar-
rantable na^re, and 4irectly subversive of the most sacred
fights of the subject. It is the morp particularly exception-
able, as a Lord in his place;^ at the express desire of the
West India 9ierchants, informed the House, that if neces-
sitated so to do, they were ready, without counsel or farther
preparation, instantly to offer evidence to prove, that several
islands of the West Indies could not be able to subsist after
the operation of the proposed address in America. Justice
ip regard to individiuts, policy with regard to the. pubfic»
and decorum with regard to ourselves, required that we should'
admit this petition %o be pre^fmte^* . ^y* refoiiDg tt> justice
fe: PARLIAMENTARY ^YfrS^'
*^ adiy. Because the papers laid upon our UbUlby^miiibftArs^'
sB^ so manifestly defective, and so avowedW turtsiOed, that
we can derive from them nothhig like informatten 6f the
true state of the object on which we are gcfing to act, or^
the consequences of the resohuions whidi we 2ha7< talbe* -
Wft ought (as we conceive) With gladness, to havt acceplM''
that innnmation from the merchants, trhkh if it hadtitit*
been voluntarily ofieredi it was our duty to seSek: TheiW-
is no information concerning the state of our colonies (taMff
in any point of view) which the merchants are not finSs^re
oofenpetent to mre, than governors or oflScers, who oftAi
know &t less ot the temper and dispositicm, or may be mote
dispiosed to misrepresent it than the merchants. Of t&it
w iuve a fiill and melsoicholy experience in Che. mistdeen
ideas on which the fatal acts of the last Parliament were
fwrmcd.
. 3diy, . Because we are of opinion, That in the entering
into a war, in which mischief and inconvenience are gMit'
and certain (but the utmost extent of which it is impossible
to foresee) true policy requires that those who are most likely
to be immediately affected, should be thoroughly satisfied
of the deliberation widi which it was undertaken: And we
apprehend that the planters, merchants, and manufacturorsi
vnll not bear their losses and burthens, brought on them by
the proposed civil war, the better, for our refusing so much at
to hear them, previous to our engaging in that wa^ \ nor will
dur precipitation in resolving, add much to the sticcesa in
executing plan any that may be pursued.
We protest therefore, against the refusal to suffer aiuch pe-
titions to be presented, and we thus clear outvdvei to dttf
country, of the disgrace and michief which must attend thfC
unconstituticmal, indecent^ and improvident proceeding.
Ridunond^ Portland,
Ponsonby, Camden,
Archer, Fitzwilliam,
Rxx:kingham, Scarborough^
Wycombe, Abergavenny,
Effingham, . Abingdon,
Torrington, Craven,
Staiihope, ' Courtenay,
. ' Cholmondele^, Tankerville.
.Thdn the main question was put, Whether to agree wit&
tfae:Con&xit)ns ito the said addrte, by inserting thewordr
4 JjO0d$'Spiricual and temporal, and-^''
' iPHMMMkivvft te^ aSMfltiyc. -^ ' ' "-■
4.*77f. P H BAT E B. - ^«;
.C9jt)tant$» 87. . • "r /T*
.No9<onte»t8> 27. j ;• «
: Jiissentientf . . .,
ifty Beqoise the violent matter of this dangerous ^dclresiy
vas highlf aggravated by the violent manner in which, it vas
precipitately hurried through the House. Lords werenoi
sjlow^d the interposition of a moment's time lor deliberttioi^t
l^efore they irere driven headlong into a declaration a£ civl
urar. A conference was held with the QMnmons, ?n ^ddbe^^
of this importance presented, all extraneous information^ adi*
though wcrtAi positivehr refused; all. pedtions arbitnr^j
rejecteds and the whole ot this most awful business^ rtceividQ
ddiated, a^d concluded in a single day.
. ad}y, because no legal groumls were hid in argument cr
in hct, to shew, that a rebellion, properly so c^ed, did:
c!xist in Massachusetts Bay,, wl^en the papers of the lateafr
date,^ and from. ,wh^ce sJone w^ derive our inforo^io^
werev wijitten. .The overt acts tp M^hich the species, of ^e;^
son a^in^ed in the afldress ought to be applied. Were apt
established, nor any ofienders marked out : hut a gcacnd'
mass.of the a4;t of turbulence, said to be done at vamiti
time and places, and of various natiures, were all thnovm
together to make out one general constructive treason:. aeir
tb^r was ' there any sort of proof of the continuance of any
tjK^awful forf:e> from whence we could infer diat a rebeilioa-
does npw exist. .And we. are the more cautious of .pronou»-
Cfng -^ny part of his Majesty's domimons, to be in actual re-»
bdHon, because the cases of constructive treason under, that
branch of .?5t|^ of ^ward the Third, which describes the
criipe of rf|l)eiUo^, have been already so £ir extended by th^
judges, and ^ -distinctions thereupon so nice and subtle^
that no px^ud^t man ought to declare any single person ia
that situationj^^ without the clearest evidence of uncontro^
vertible overt ac^ to warrant such a declaration. Much
I^ ought so high an authority as both Houses of Parlia-
ment, to denoiwce so .severe a judgment against a consider-*
able part of his Majesty's subjects, by which his farces may
think themselves justified in commencing a w{^,. without any
i)irther order or commission.
3dly, Because we think that several acts of ihe last Par-
liament, and several late proceedings of administration, with
regard to th^ c;oloniei^ are real grievances, and just, causes
co^coznplaintj and we cannot, in honour or in consdeocet^
<ipnsent \o ^n address which commiends the temper by whidk
prpc^ed^Qgs so very intemperate have been carried ^fiKl
6i P A R L I A RF E N T A t'Y A. 1^75^
nor can we persuade ourselves to authorfee violent courses
against persons in the colonies, who have resfeted authority,
vathout at the same time redressing the griCv^iices vrhich
liave given but too much provocation for their behaviour.
' 4thly, Because we think the loose and general assurances
given by the address^ of future redress of grievances^ in case
5F submission, is far- from satisfactory, or* at all likely to pro-
^cc their end ; whilst the acts complained of, continue un-
repealed, or unameridfed ; and their authors remain in autfao-'
rity hercj because these* advisers of all the measures which
IW«^ brought .on the calamities of this empire, will not bci
trusted while ■ they defend, as just, necessary, and cvciqr
zndulgeilt;, all the. acts complained of as grievances, by the
Americans; and must therefore, on their own principles,.
be botmd' in future, to govern the colonies "in the manner
which has already produced such fatal effects: arid we fear'
that the refusal of this House, so much as to receive prevtous
to determination (which is the most 'offensive mode of re-
jection) petitions firom the unoffending natives of Great
Britain and the West India Islands, affords us but a very
discouraging ppbspect of our obtaining hereafter any petitions
at all, from tliose whom we have declared actors in rebellion,^
or abettors of that crime.
Lastly, Because the means of enforcing the autihority oF
the British legislature, is confined to persons of whose capa**
city, for that purpose, from abundant experience^ we hav^
reason to d6ubt ; and who having hitherto used no effectual '
means of conciliating or of reducing those who oppose that
authority: This appears in the constant failure ot all their
j^ojects, the insufficiency of all their information, and the; *
diidappointment of all the hopes, which they have for several
years held out to the public. Parliament has never refused'
any of their proposals, and yet our affairs' have proceeded'
daily from bad to worse, until we have been brought, step by{
step, to that state of confusion, and even civil violence, whicb^
was the natural result of tiiese desperate measures. ■ • -^
•We therefore protest against an address amounting to a;'
declaration of war, which is founded on no proper parlia-'
mentarv information 5 which was introduced by refusing to* .
suffer the presentation of petitions against it, (although it be.
the undoubted right of the subject to present the same);
which followed the rejection of every mode of conciliation (^
which holds out no substantial oflcr of redress of grievances-j'
and which promises support to those ministers who have in- -
Bamcd • AmericZi and grossly piuconduaed the afiairs dT!
Oreat JBrkaiiu
D E B A
'^..^.'- R}cKmond^
'"'" CraVeh,
•'"'/;- . Arehef,
•'*'- ' Abei^gavehny,
Ro'cldnghaio,
";'"'. * Wycdihbej
' . ■ ' Courtehay,
; /■. ■ Tofrihgton,
■ List o? the 'tflihority,
question.
pukes of Qimberland
Richmond
Devonshire
Portland
Manchester
Marquis of Rockingham
Earls of.
who
T E S. ' '"'
Ch<^ondeley^
Abingdon^
Portland^
Gaiinden, -
Effingham, -^
Stsoihope, ~ :
Scjarborough, •• -
FitzWilliamy
Tankcrvillc. '
divided upon the
prsti&Gs
Earls of
Viscounts
Lords
•Stamford
Straflord ' '^
TankerviUcv
Courtenky
Torrington
Abergavenny
Archer
Beaulieu/
Camden
Craven
Fortescue '
oondes
Exeter
Abingdon
Bcsborough
Cholmondeley
.Coventry
Effingh^
Fitzwilliam
Scarborough
Shclbume • Bishop of
Spencer
•. March 6.
■ This day was heard a remarkable tythe cause.
The case shortly was this : Twg issues had. been trieil at
- tii^ assizes of Lincoln, tx^' enquire what were the modes for
collecting tythes in the parish of Rysom, and whether the
lands in question, of which tythe was demanded were extras
parochial, or within the parish. The jury found for Mr^
Chaplin, the proprietor of the ted. Judge Blackstone at-
t^ded, and as the. judge who tried the cause, reported the
evidence. His opinion vras, that the verdict was against evi-
dence* The clergyman, Mr. Bree^ applied to thetrburt of
Exchequer, and oDtained two orders for new trials, which
1Mb*. Chaplin now complained of; aind against these orders
ajibealed to the House of Lords.
It appeared by the judge's report, and the arguments of
cbimsel, that the appellant, Chaplin, was owner and occupier
of . all the lands in the parish of Rysom in the county of
Lincoln, to the amount of two thousand acres, for w4uch he
jiaid no tydie whatever, but a sum of money of 1 5L los* i^d.
6j^ PAJlMAMpN*TAl^.y A^mi^
by vnj of compopitionc tlMj» being consid^raUtjr-uii^ tbered.
value, the respondeo^ Bi»e, rector of tbe paiTtbf ezhibiteA
his bill in the court of I^c^quer, Hilary term, 17691 png^*
ing that the appeUiam qu^t be deemed to account whh MK^.
according to the real aQ4 Adl vslvte of the.hmdi.
The appellant adwiiyted. generally the all^g^tioDS coo-
tained in the reqx>a4au'< bill ; but insisted that p^ «f the
lands called Granger de Lynge, mentioned, in the pleadii^^
were not within the parish of Rysom, being cxtrahparbchial|.
9a4 that an ancient composition real^ uitiarjifff %o tikcjK^igpri£
Queen Elizabeth, had been made between the patiron jwM^
parson of the parish, &r the yearly sum of <cL io8i[ ii<l» W
lien and fvU satisfaction of all tythes, and other ecclesia&cal .
dues. The said cause being heard before the barons of the •
Excheqjier, puro issues were directed to be tried, the first at
the next Liacphi assizes, to enquire whether the lands of
Grange dc Lynge were in the parish of Rysom^ tbp scc^Ulf^ •
whethisr there li^d been any composition real between .the p>v
tron and parson, previous to the reign of Queen Elisabeth*
On the 25th an4 26th of March, i774i hptK ^iMtters came
to be detenmoed before Mr. Justice Biackstoneand two spe-
cial juries^ at lancoln, when verdicts in both issues were
found for the appellant, that Grange de Lynge was eUni-p»-
rochial; and that there had been an ancient CQin|position roJt
paid in lieu and fuU satisfaction of tythes and^clessasticai
dues.
Th^ respondent, looking upon himself to be aggrieved by
both verdicts, and conceiving that the learned judge who
tried the cause, (by his direction of the jury) was ',of -a^*
nion, that the appellant had £iiled in proving the affinnativc^
or either of the propositions on which he rested his c;ause« ,a|p^
pU^fer a new trial at the coux^^of lo^chequer, who, afiqr'
hearing counsel several days, thought fit to order a new trji^
cm both issues, against which the appellant, Chaplin^ 9^.
pea)ed< , . _ -
As soon 9s the counsel had finished the r^ply, the Loti^
Chancellor observed, that the whole of the frst question/
rofjed solely on the construction of the ten^, in wluchtJI^-
mult of :the 30th of Henry the Eighth to Charles Brandon^-
puke of Suffolk, of the lands in question, was conceiy^d^
-r-His Lordship- recited the grant, and observed, that in ^*
first clause the words werb, that he mnted the lands. ojlF^
Grange de Lynge, in the county of Lincoln^ and attthf!
huoicb ia the lordsihip -and parish of Rysom* to the siv|d,
■ . Chiles; .
A. 1775. DEBATES. Sj
Ckarkiy &c. which) whatever construction might he put
c^ itp stroQgiy' inclined him to believe, that Grange de
Lmgi? was, in the comity^ and lM>t in the parish of Rysonu
l!b^4»ther part of the said grant, which the learned judges
he s^id, seemed to lay gi^test stress on in his report, ws^
wh£ar6 the grant mentioned sdl grangers in said parish, and
no oth^ grange appearing to liewithm the parish, it was ex<b
trc^d^y Wa;tural and prol^ble, that it could be only Grange
de-Xynge which wa& meant to be therein described; but
ha?e again he begged leav^ to differ : for, coupled almost
wkh thosG words, Grange de Lynge was described to be in the
coittity of Lincoln, and not in the parish of Ryson ; conse**
quentfy, he was clearly of opinion, that Grange de Lynge
was an extras-parochial place, and that the decree of the court
of' Exchequer, ordering a new trial on that issue, ought to be
reversed. As to the composition real, no evidence having
been brought to prove that it was of more ancient date thaa
the year 1707 ; and di^n^rent sums, at several times, being
paidr one time 4I. another lol. and lastly 151. which if an
ancient compositi<Hi within the statute, should have been
equal and uniform, he was of opinion, that another trial
ought to be had, and that of course the second order ought
to be affirmed. His k>rdship then rettu-ned to the woolsack^
;uid put die qujsstion on the reversal of the first order, which
was agreed to; and having put the question of affirmance
on the order of a new trial on the second issue, several Lords
were rising, '
The Lord Le De^petuer was, however, permitted to speak.
He said, the present order, if affirmed, might be a precedent
big with the most fatal consequences to the landed interest
in general ; 'wA that, should such a claim prevail in the pre^
sent instance, it might at once render one half of the landed
property in the kingdom insecure and precarious. Here,
says his Lordship, from the year 1601, for the space of 174
years, a composition has been paid in lieu of tythes ; and
now a man, in a* distant county, who cannot perform any
dut|^, because he cannot be at the same time in two |^aces,
in Essex and. in Lincoln, comes* to demand tythes in a place
where there is no congrdgation, where there is not a church,
nor has been in the memory of man, an^ where, besides^
the firw priestly fiinctions performed are paid for to a neigh'
bousing clergyman. But however unreasonable and incqtiifc
tablesuch a claim may be, there is still something infinitely
worse, when we come to examine some of the circumstanc<{s
^ttteadinff this case- This gentleman's father purchased tlus
VoL.IL F c^\a5w'^
fS P A31 fi I .fC M;^ NTT 3^ mr a. l77^
fisute-^ fl^t^iyear :i 7^ i-, under -the idea of its being mdy wi>
cumbered with a payment of 15!. per ammm;.and;atr tii6
end ofhaU'a century, a claim is made which will considfi^
xably lessen its ^value ; and what still causes additional aggra-
lotion is, that the present appellant and his father have ex-»
pended above 8000I. in improving the estate ; so that a man
^lay sink his whole fortune in improvement^ and be pen^
mitted to do so, and by this doctrine it may go on fSrom fit**
ther to son successively for a century and a half; and wiien
the wild or waste is brought into a state of cultivation, then
some latent, dormant claim is set up, whereby the person -or
family may be at once stripped of the fruits of their propertyj^
labour, and industry. His Lordship, therefore, said, :tllat
if a motion had not been already made by the noblb and
learned Lord on the woolsack, he should move for reversing
both orders, but at all events he should give the latter part
of it his hearty negative.
The Earl of Denbigh said, that the principles di the Rcvfif*
lution were strongly in favour of juries^ and that he shookl
iaever sit silent in that House, and hear it as a doctrine.iiot
to be departed from^ that the judges were to determine when
juries did, or did not, perform their duty; that however
high a respect he might entertain for the learned judge who
tried the cause, or deference he might be willing to pay to
fais opinion on matters of mere law, he should never c6unte#
nance any thing which might seem to have the most -distant
appearance of granting new trials on slight occasionsj txr giv*
ing the judges an indiscriminate power and controul over
jijuies. He said no man respected the church more than he
did^. oi; wished more sincerely for the preservation of her just
rights and privileges ; but he believed, if such vexatious
claims, as the present were set up and pursued, the hadoii
at large .WiHild find itself under a necessity of procuring, a
nullum tempus law, to secure their property against theen-t
croachments of the church, as it had been on a recent ooi
Casion against Uiose of the crown.
The Archbishop of Canterbury said, he by no meam
agreed' with what. fell firom the noble Earl ; and as for the
jtoble Lprd who spoke bdbre him, he .presumed to say, hd
was mistfib^ \ for the composition which he said took place
mi6oi, .^^ of nolonger standing than 1707; and to go
no- further into the argqment^ the difference bctwecn:i»tK
Compositions was ihe hiUest proof of the non-ezistence of
either as. an antient composition ; because, if it could be so
coiistruedy the. composition at both, periods must have been
the
A^ivi^ ^ ^ * A T E «. «f
the same; irhereas the former was loL and the ktfe^ rjfL
tlie strangest proof in the world with him> that they were
made according to the real value at the respective periods.
- The Lord Z^ Despmcer answered, that it mattered very lit-
tle what was the composition at one time, compared with
what it was at another; but it was perfectly plain to
him, that a prescription or usage of 60 years, from 1 704
or 1 707, to 1767, satisfied his conscience (all the other cir-
cumstances of a bona fide purchase, and money expended in
improvement considered, with the total non-performance of
doty, and abstinence of all the functions on which the re-
spondent could only equitably claim the tythes or ecclesiasti-
cal dues) that the present composition was a good one, and
thould on every principle and policy be sustained by their
Lordships.
.;'.irfae Archbishop of Canterbury replied, that the question
in his opinion was simply, whether the act of the 13th of
Queen Elizabeth, since which no composition could have tar
htOL i^ace, should determine their Lordships. He therefore
MUedopon some noble- Lord, learned in the law, to rise and
&cct the judgment of the House, in a matter which seemed
at present to be controverted. '
.^ Lord MamfieUj after assuring the House that he did not
meaii to give a vote, as he had not attended the two first days»
aakU he was astonished to hear such doctrines laid down, as
fenoHB ^consciences being satisfied in direct contradictibn'to
an cxpresa statute. He insisted, that any determination form-
od on such doctrine would be monstrous, would be iniqui-
tous. . I do not pretend to say, continued his Lordship^
whether the composition contended for is not more ancie^^.t
dian..the reign of Queen Elizabeth-, but will any Lord in
ifaia House, at this time of day, rise and tell me, that a com^
position of 60 or 174 years, or even an hour later than the
^ossmg of the statute of the I3[th of Queen Elizabeth, will
Iq^alhr. or equitably defeat the intentions of that statute ?
No, 1 hope I shall never hear so wild, so dangerous a do&*
trine seriously maintained. What, my Lords, would be the
eonsecpience of. such a procedure? Why, that we sitting
here in our judicial capacity, should, by one fingle determi-
nation, abrogate all the laws of the land; for if we can
do it in- one mstance, cannot we clearly do it in every other?
There is an ek jpress statute passed in the i3th year of the
reiga of Qncen Elizabeth, which positively nullifies and ren-
ders ineffectual every agreement whatever made by an in-
duabent^ which may injure, nay bind> his successor; and
f 2 %S!^
a PARLIAMENTARY A. l77^
^tre we to alter the laws of the land^ because fromr some
particular instances we are induced to think and feel our cKm*
scienpes satisfied? No^ if it be an hardship which may^s*
tend in a variety of insttoces so as to become a real griev-
ance, let tl^ legislature remedy it, let a bill be brought ih
to prevent the mischief; but let us not, under the zpfcsa^
ance o£ equity and justice, by a vote or determination o{
^s House, overthrow all law and justice, and by averting
one evil, introduce ten thousand others of infinitely greater
magnitude. ■'■•■.
Lord Gafnden closed the debate. He informed the Hotttl^
that as he did not attend till the second day, he should give no
vote on the occasion; he should never be the first thai
would introduce so fatal a precedent, should it ever comem
be adopted, as giving a vote without personally attem&lg.
from the beginoipg to the end. His Lordship compHmbiGea
Lord Mansfield highly on the part he had taken, as the^ great
patron of the common law. He expatiated largely on the
sentiments thrown out by the noUe and learned Lord : after
which he confined himself chiefly to two points : the -first
tx> prove that there was no composition: for that the sum
paia was always fairly equivalent to the value of the ^d^
even to the very last composition, in the reign of Queen
Ann, wh^n the lands in question were rated at 104I. per
;amum, and the composition was 15I. ; the second, to shen^
tbsLt, whenever a nullum tempus bill should pass, vespectiog the
possessions of the clergy, £rom that instant there would be a.
foundation laid for stripping the church of her inheritance^ aft
thiols might be easily managed, between the patron and !»•.
cumbent,. so as that in two ordinary successions, tibe patrons^
ia whose gifts the livings are, might settle matters with those-
• who might be glad to accept them on any terms ; that cosn-
positions might be set up within a period cnf sixty years, st)&
dent to strip the church of more than one half, or two think
of the real value of the livings she now possessed.
The question being put on the Lord Chancellor's modaoo^.
it passed in the affirmative, without one dissenting voice.
[There were seldom less than sixty Lords present, durix^-
the whole time of hearing this cause, and sixteen oc eig^tcesiL
bishops.]
Mtireb 15.
Second reading of the New England restrnning bSL TUk
bill was brought up &om the Commons, on the ^tfa, voAim^
mediately read the first time> when therewas.no debate*
The:
A.i77S» DXBATE«. 6^
Tbe.MarquU of Rockingham presented Uie following pe-
tition 9gainst the bill.
To ^ie Migit Honourable tie Lords Spirkuttl and Temporal in
Parliament assembled^
The Petition of the Merchants, Traders, and others of the
City of London, interested in the American commerce,
Humbly sheweth.
That your petitioners are deeply concerned to find that
there is now depending before this right honourable House,
. a bill to restrain the trade and commerce of the province of
Massachusetts Bay, and New Hampshire, and colonies of Con-
i^ecticut and Rhode Island, and Providence Plantation in
North America, to Great Britain, Ireland, and the British
Islands in the West Indies ; and to prohibit such provinces
and colonies from carrying on any fishery on the banks of
Newfoundland, or other places therein to be mentioned, under
certain restrictions, and for a time to be limited.
Your petitioners beg leave to r^esent, that the said bill,
should it pass into a law, will in its operation deprive thou*
sands of his Majesty's loyal subjects of their actual subsist-
ence, and reduce them to extreme distress, even that of fa-
mine, the said provinces not generally raising com sufficient
for their own support; and by this bill they will be prevented
£rom receiving any supplies from their sister colonies, and
precluded from their natural resource — ^the sea.
Your petitioners have reason to believe, that the very great
niunbers of men, bred and employed in the fisheries, who in
hardiness and intrepidity are not exceeded by any in this ex-
tensive empire, will be impelled, by the pressing calls of hun-
ger and want, and a just feeling for their violated rights, to
such a conduct as may be productive of devastation and blood*
shed, which may endanger the peace and welfare of, his Ma**
jesty's American domimonsj or be induced to emj^oy themi?
selves in fishing for the Frenchi and thereby give our rivals
the n^eans of supplying the markets in Europe, which will
render it difficult for us ever to regain that valuable branch of
conmierce.
Your petitioners beg leave further to represent, that there
is now due tcota the said provinces and colonies to the city
of London only, one million sterling and upwards ; that their
remittances are almost entirely made by means of the fisheries,
and consequently the ruin brought on those colonies will
decply.injure the commercial interest of G^-eat Britain, ;ind
ultimate fall on the landed property of diese kiTV^dcflcoa.
That among the other grievances o£ vAik\x otx l€i^sy« ^^^c^-
-7b P A II LI A M » Nf A R t A- rmv
jec^ h, ''America so gentraUy comply, is thdr beii^ depxii^fsd!
of trial by jury in particular cases, and the cxtcnfxcrti^ of^ttJi*
jilrisdictfon cf the Admiralty courts ; which gticWthdcs yonr
petitioners, with inudi concern, find arc not only ciijftnttttJdy.
Dut extended by the present bill J and thcr think it thitSrcftiWt
to represent it as their firm opiniwi to this right hbribferiBK
House, that the disquietudes which universally prevail' ir^yi'tf
minds of their fellow subjects in America wiU be indtA^
and confirmed by this bill, which is unjust, as thcytpricCTWlJ
because it involves the punishment of diose wto are alHd^t^
to be innocent with Aose who are supposed to •Bc-'jgiffltjpi
and that these disquietudes will never be removed, untesfs \^
nient measures are pursued, and their grievances redress&l;^^^
Your petitioners therefore most humbly pray, that "ffifc
said bill may not pass into a law. . " " ! J^"
The house after some debate agreed to read the bfll/^d
then to call witnesses. '•" *^'
Mr. Seti Jenkins y master of a trading vessel, was the firift
witness called. He said that the inhabitants of the island' of
Nantucket consist of about six or seven thousand souls, xnc^ttl^
Quakers; that their whole employment was in fishing on die
banks of Newfoundland, and m the whale fishery 5 that thcjr
getierally fitted out 3 a sail of ships annually, navigated by
2400 seamen j the average produce of the cargoes at market
w^ about 90,ood* that the vessels were mostly built in
America, which found the timber, the masts, and the iroii,
an the other materials being the produce of Great Britain,
besides the fishing tackling, nets, &c. that they had their pro-
visons fironi the continent, which being cut off by the praent
Un* thej must perish with famine, from two causes equally
in V t^bK^j being deprived at the same time of the means of
jNircbasing or procuring provisions, had they the liberty to to
do, 09 or the liberty, bad they the means of paying for
ihem % that the New-EngWd provinces produced a su^iat
Snantity of provisions for their own-- consumption, except in
lie article of bread com } thatthejhad wheat fiour and tn-i
dian com firom the more southern provinces of New Yqrlct
Pennsylvania, &c. that if they should be cut off from idiose
supplies, the certain ieffects or such, a prohibition innst W %
lami» ci that tliey are in no habit of . activating their btid^
so as to raise com sufficient for some years for their sup^torl^
nor. v-ith thrir greatest efforts of ihdtisti7, could they be aibte
to rai<;e a substitute, such as pkitatoes/ &c. in the place ofcohit
suifi'-wt to prevent a famine } and, that he was well boH-
vinccd, that no tCDcptaiian wodid iodiKe them to settle m
Nova
Ng^ Scotia, /srjE^cmtH^ iiie/ belike. it^obea mi?;
poson .exsmuncxL . He -saidji' that He'wient to' America m^^iie^
^sa]:.i7iS49.witIi aii intention ofac^pringevery- possible &<|^*
fiaTnation relative tolthe state of theltrade and coxhmerce o£.
tiiat eountiy, .and after t&e most . laboiribus researches' andf
carj^aLmvestieationsi Ims found it to be of the utmost conse*^.
qnebceV and &Slj on the increase ; t^t an^ong the first m^
portanthranches of their commerce, he discovered the fisher^
to.be one, continually employing 6000 sicamaii and 150 .sail
oIF vessds, besides, the numbers emfdoyed. to carry the cod|
whale fins, blubbar, oil, &c. to the several European, mar-,
kets. He then entered into a long detail, ^enumerating^ the
several articles just mentioned, the places whn-e they .were dis^*
po^ of, and the various great and important benefits deriVcMi
to Xki mother country, miere the whole at last centered! "He
s|;ated that the amount of the fishery, . or the net pi^eeds at
the. West Indian, . Portuguese, Italian, and Spanish, marketjs,
^i^^ about 290,000!. per annum, on an average \ and^ bo«i
^eved it to he considerably increased .sixice he made hig.cqiafti^
potation. He further informed the Hbiue, that the. amoiilit
9F the exports to America at th^t period was about a,7gg,pcM3)L
per .annum ; and that he believed it was since veiy'coxisufit^
p^b^: increased. He observed, that the general.en^es;^ at j^
custom^hoeuse are usually very erroneous s ami . I^eiqig a&tod
how .he could pretend to speak with siich a«;cviracy;(ipp^it^
sul^ect, he answered,. that at the time ojf fife jnsp^ of.w?
$taaip-act, the committee of merchants .agr<eed.tp pntaii^wiir
;^Sj^''at' papers into a box, ^ting th/e amouAt.qf their resppf^
Uvp^ exports; and that ubpn exammatipn, thp^erpaf^r^ ,n)i>
x^^ed the round sum ot ..2,(}iq,qoo1. He y^a^ t^^pes^
ia^eclare, if all the supposed; Wfbnip^ lufii, spifye;^on^
jq^edlcesr dreaded firom the bQl >night not be e^f^i^ /^v^ent^
j^lthe people oh wwh |hisbiU was intended t^ ^ijCe
i9l3^ ifhe had |n|a*^y to. spe^k Ki9'^ntiir^eqb,,li^.\^.r^^
*ta reply. Being 4^;siredt6 proceed, he said in ^e^jp^t^^w^wi?'^
jS^fere.the Housi^ the yefy revisrse wa^,ki^o\ifn tQjbc.tiie uasq 5
Jot her? lire '7000 pwops, dooi^^. to 'StjUfve . fo^ vr^t of pf;©-
'>;isr6ns, or .^e vp^J^ of paying foi;. them if (hey 4^d the^,
'iP^Qut wX inmu^ fault or a<;t pf di^bedienee whatsoever. ;
:.^^f^r4», s^ys.he, , I think fhat fhpse< people at least cannot,
l^y.any'aqt .of;thi^^ewi]i|..p t^,ru^l and destruction
;^ir]tii(J^ jQioyr 'thre^ t^in» as they, ai^ ready to submit to
7t PARLIAMENTARY A.t77^
Moan* Lister zodJDmMSy two merchants a£ Poole to Hwm^
IbuiuUandy were next severally examined. Their evid^iio^
meat to prore, that there are, upon aa average, Aasxt
$6^00 tons of shipping- employed in that fishery, bewles sfaad*
}Bp$% that out of that numbo-, Poole and Dartznouth mppif
about two-thirds, and that they are managed in the p ar u p a r-
tion of loo men to a vessel of 200 tons, or one man.tq
two ton ; that those crews consist geno^y of l2 lUa
seamen, and 88 passengers; that to every four seamen Attf
are obliged to carry out a green man, that is, to makse
a man unused to the sea learn to work the shipj row, -&&
that the whole number employed is about 20,000 persons, and
the net produce of cargoes at market about 500,0001. that if
a total prohibition took place, so as intirely and perpetualif
to exclude the New-£nglanders, Great Britain would a^
most this year, and ever after, be enaUed entirely to supply
the European markets ; that this would be much more adU
vantageous to the mother-country, as it would occasion an
increase of seamen, fit to man our fleets on any emer^noy^
which could not be the case in either event, were the New
England fishery continued ; for, in the first place, the pro^
£ts never centered here, nor did their fishery scarcely TSatd
a nngle seaman in time of war, as they were exempted by act
of Parliament from the press. They added besides, that
France could never come in competition with us, as they had
neither the means of curing the fish when catched, nor -the
mode of fitting it for the foreign markets ; that the spedcii
of fish now sold in Spain was mostly .cured by die Amen-
cans, but that the British fishery could soon supply that
maricet; and that on the whole, France hardly caught Ssh
enough to answer their own consumption. For the reason
before assigned, they said France never would be aMe to ea&-
tend their fishery, namely, the want of room to cure and
dry th^'r fish.
A 'mi .1 Sbuldiam was next examined. He confirmed the
testimo:iy of the last two witnesses in many particulars. He
said, the numbfrrs were about twenty thousand employed ; and
that for the 8:rverai reasons enumerated by the two preceding
witiesses, it would be better, for every reason of policy and
cwnmerce, to cncrease our trader and strengthen oiu- turvy^
to reserve that branch of it oiiirely to the inhabitants rf
Great Britain and Irehnd.
He was followed in the same sentiments by Sir Hu^ 'RtU
fiier, at that time comptroller of the navy, who thought the
N^£i]£|laad poDpk did ttas firWak ^itorym ^Mtdodisr
A. 1775- U E B A T E Sr 7j
hut in many respects, v that tbtj debaudied our. seamen,, car-
rtedon an iUidt trade with the French at St^.Pierreand Mb
tpjoAdiy and smuggled French CDnunodities purchased at
those places into the American conttneiit; tiul: thejrsup*
fUed the French an return inith the necessaries of subtistence^
whhottt i^ich supply, he doubted whether the Frenck
would ever have bem aUe to carry on their £shcriea to aisf
extent;' that they suf^lied the French also with the impk^
mcDts of fishing, axid all the difierent mean& of carrying it
Oft; and that he believed, had it not been for this ilUdt
correspondence, and the various means it furnished, whick
he endeavoured all in his power to prevent, the French must
have been obliged to abandon all thoughts of establishing
any fishery or settlement on Newfoundland. He stated the
numbers emfdoyed in 1768, the last year of his being on
that station, to be 5000 seamen, 6000' passengers, 1 0^000
ittsidents on the ishmd, and 2000 green men, or land-men,
instructed in the art of navigation. The gross number agreed
pretty nearly with the Pook merchants account, but it was
evident it made no more than two<<hirds of the number^
stated by those gentlemen, if the green men were included in
tbe passengers. Those naval ofiScers likewise asserted, that
they coold not get any seamen out of the New-England
vessels \ and if they could, they would not chuse it, as they
were not fit for their purpose; and that on the other hancC
the British seamen employed in the fishery were the very
best, those employed in the coal trade only excepted.
' Aciyoumed to next day.
March 16.
The Earl, of Dartmcutb moved to commit the bill.
The Marquis of RocUngbam opposed the motion. His
Lordship asserted that the bill was oppress! re and tyrannical
throughout ; that the principle which pervaded it, and the
means of putting it into execution, had one merit, that of con-
sistency ; and that from the same motive, he should heartily
diKsent to every syllable of its contents. He said, he meant
not to trouble their Lordslups in any futnre stage of the bill, or
perhaps at all on the same street, during the continuance of
.the fessioQ, for which reason he wished and hoped for their
iiMhilgeace on the present bccasion. He desired to repeat^
that die present bill, and every other framed on the same
principle, and directed to the same object, to be attailied.
ea&ly by the most flagrant acts of cruelty and oppression, must
jforevarcontanue to meet with his. strongest disapprobation.
J^fixr^eaMOHtt^ of 'tbp )»iU« ^irhicli ik
7t PARLIAMENTARY A.tr75.
.ItosTf. Listir zadJOmMf, two maxhants a£ Poole to Hwm^
fisuxuUaady were next severally examined* Thar cwwdpaa^
meat to prore, that there are, upon aa average, UMmt
j6»ooo tons of shipping employed in that fishery, boodes sind*
]flf»l that out of that number, Poole and Dartmouth Bupfif
about two-thirds, and that they are managed in the p r u p o r-
tion of loo men to a vessel of 200 tons, or one man.to
two ton; that those crews consist geno^y of 1.2 -iHa
seamen, and 88 passengers^ that to every four seamen iSbtf
are oWged to carry out a green man, that is, to makse
a man unused to the sea learn to work the ship^ row^ -&&
that the whole number employed is about 20,000 persons, *and
the net produce of cargoes at market about 50o,oooL that if
a total prohibition took place, so as intirely and perpetually
to exclude the New-£nglanders, Great Britain would a^
most this year, and ever after, be enabled entirely to supply
the European markets ; that this would be much more adU
vantageous to the mother-country, as it would occasion an
increase of seamen, fit to man our fleets on any emei^eniry^
which could not be the case in either event, were the Nsw
England fishery continued ; for, in the first place, the -pro^
fits never centered here, nor did their fishery scarcely afibrd
a single seaman in time of war, as they were exempted by act
of Parliament from the press. They added b^dcs, ibeitt
France could never come in competition with us, as they had
neither the means of curing the fish when catched, nor {he
mode of fitting it for the foreign markets ; that the specieii
of fish now sold in Spam was mostly .cured by the Ameri-
cans, but that the British fishery could soon supply that
market; and that on the whole, France hardly caught Ssh
enough to answer their own consumption. For the reason
before assigned, they said France never would be aMe to ea&*
tend their fishery, namely, the want of room to cure and
dry th'^'r fish.
A 'mi l Sbuk&amwtinext examined. He confirmed tiMt
testimony of the last two witnesses in many particulars: He
said, the numbers were about twenty thousand employed ; luid
that for the several reasons enumerated by the two preceding
witnesses, it would be better, for every reason of poUcy and
commerce, to encrease our trader and strengthen our^tiarvy^
to reserve that branch of it entirely to the inhabitancs of
Great Britain and Irehnd.
..He was followed in the same senthnents by Sir Hu^ RtU
Hter^ at that time comptroller of thfcnavy, who thought the
iVbr J%iiiid pcopk dUl ths ficil^ ^leat-dttAtf'
- \iaaxt
Aitr75i ^ E B A T E S. 75*
cif'inipnral ' dated sbme day in December^ in which hit omits
to i^ the leatst notice of the assocbtion and deckratibn
citbred into -by the army under his -command early in the
pxtc^th^ November* It was impossible^ he said^ that Ids
L^fddrip conld be ignorant of so important a fact, which
happened on the spot ; but were that even so, a paper which
he: held in his hand, made it clear, that his Lordship could
be at least no" stringer to its being published at Williams-
biirgh' in Virginia, nie seat of his government, two days
preceding the date of his dispatch, rerhaps it might have'
been a spurious account, and as such his Lordship could'
not have taken notice of it ; but if that were the case, he
should be obliged to some noble Lord in administration t^
rise aiid tell him so, otherwise he must continue to think that*
the pfocecdin^ of the noble Governor was not to be ac^
cbmtedlbr, consistent with his duty, or at least with the
duty of those, who, having better information, thought proper
tb hold it back. The noble Marquis concluded his speedl'
wftb" a general disapprobation of dl the measures pursued
T&uS^t to America since the repeal of the stamp->^t$
nd predicted that an useful and constitutional agreement in
setxbments, and a cordial reciprocity of interests, .would ne^
ver take place between them and the mother country, till the
!^e|Urinctples wer e once more recurred to, and similar mea*
sures adopted.
■ The Earl of CarRsle was surprised that the noble Mar-
cjtns could possibly conceive the bill was either intended, or
could be supposed to operate in the manner he affected to
think it would ; no such thing being meant, no such thing
CQidd take place. The present was not a question about
taxation; it was not involved in difficulty, but simply,
whether we were justified in employing the most lenient
riiethods of bringing America back to obedience and a proper
sense of her duty. The bill was not formed on the narrow
views of loading her with taxes, or for the sake of a paltry
revenue. He believed the ministry had no design of forcing
her into any such concession ; if they had, he was certain
iffat neither he, nor many of the other Lords who intended
tirvote for the measure, had any such desire.
The Duke of Manchester condemned the bill, as involving
h) its consequences the guiltjr imd innocent in the same pu-
nilhinent. It was a new kind of logic to him to hear it
contended, that the bill was not oppressive, cruel, or unjust,
hi' respect of the inhabitants of Nantuckei\ VKJC»a!5e.>\«.
i^eir cMdnct what it may, tlacy vcre «os^ v^^ ^^>^a^
^6 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
Whether diey are obedient or disobedient, their fate:is rto
he the same ; -and what, saya his Grace> is their mode of rer
lief ? Why, after peace and obedience, which by the byef as
far as rebtes to them, has never been viobted or departed
from, shall be restored for one month, and that die same shall
be certified by the costom4iouse officers, then the peuxis
and penalties inflicted by this bill are to cease. Now, when
it is considered what a kind of people the majority at least of
those oustom-house officers are *, when we serioiisly reflect
on their narrow minds, and the niean passions they are gene-
rally actuated by, we may readily conclude what d^ree of
favour, indulgence, or justice, the inhabitants of Nantuc-
icet are to receive at the hands of such men; men who, in their
several stati(His, besides, are to share among them the penalties
and forfeitures to be recovered under this act. It is said»
that there are live stock oaa the island ; and it is contended^
that New-England has a plentiful supply of provisions withio
itself; because, during the late war, large si:q>plie8 were
procured from thence for the use of the army and navj;
By this latter mode of reasoning, we might as well suppose^
that because large quantities of tobacco are annually exported
from the city of Glasgow, we should therefore conclude^ that
it grows in the neighbourhood of that town ; and, by the
former, that because there w&re provisions sufficient in New**
England, the people of Nantucket, deprived of .the only
fair means of procuring it at market, might obtain it by ra-
pine and injustice. His Grace proceeded to examine the msK
nifest tyranny and oppression of the bill in other respects, par-
ticularly as it would a^ct the property of our merch^its^
who could not be supposed to have had any hand in the outr
rages which gave birth to it, or to that general spirit of Resist-
ance and disobedience it was intended to subdue. He protested,
sincerely, he came with no prejudices or party views what«»
ever into the House ; that he had laboriously endeavoured to
forget every connection, to banish every distinction, to for-,
get all that had hitherto passed, and contemplate the bill oa*
kedly as it came before him ; nevertheless, upon the fullest"
investigation^ and nK)st impartial consideration, in his opinion,,
it carried in the very face of it every appearance of a most
tyrannic, oppressive, and persecuting spirit, fr<Hn which, con«
sequences of great and alanning danger were to be feared ; £0^
concluded he, the military force sent to reduce those ixijurei
people may be employed at home in .the destruction ci our
own liberties ; and by the general complexion of men aqd
jaeasiuvsg^od the professed means employed to give th| latter
A. T775- DEBATES.- 77
existence and success, there are, i fear, some . persons of
wnght and influence who would dbearfiilly adopt and asai^
duously labour to put such a design in executi<HU
The Earl of DaMgh rose, to correct a mistake whkh the
Bobie Duke £ell into, relative to the inhalntants of Nantucket*
by informing him, that the htll was not correctly printed firom
the copy J for that in the ingrossed bill every thing which ha4
the least ai^)earance of severity was provided against. As to
the certificate required from the custom-house ojQicers, he said,
that proceeded from a misapprehension of the noble Duke,
for the appdication was to be made to the Governor of the
Massachusetts Bay,, not to the custom-house officers. His
Lordshijp then disclaimed the imputation thrown out by the
noble Duke on administration,, so far as it might be supposed
to affect himself, and was certain^ he said, that he might aB»>
swer with justice, that no one member of it ever harboured
SDch a thought.
The Duke of MimchesUr answered, that the clause respect*
kig Nantucket, however construed, could extend no further
tlum to the whale-fishery; for it still left all, but those em*
jdojfcd in that fishery, to starve without employment or breads
He still maintained what he asserted, respecting the mode of
application to the customrhouse ofikers, so far as it related to
the ocdonies cf Connecticut and Rhode Island, and Provi^
4ence Phntadon* His Grace idhen read the clause out of the
UB^ ^ If it shall he proved to the said, governor and comman»
dcr in chief,, and council of Massachusetts Bay, by the testir
mony of the ofiicers of his Majesty's customs," &c. The
noble Duke then exculpated his Lordship from the most dis-
tant su^pirioB that he would concur in any design to enslave
Ins CDimtry, were he first minister.
The Ear^ of Denbigh thanked his Grace for the good opi-
nion-he entertained of himv but if his insinuations were dir
r eeled at a noUe Lord who presided at the head of the finan-
ceB».he h^ged leave to assure him he was mistaken, for he had
known that noble Lord [Lord North] from his early youth %
they Iiad been bred up together; he was perfectly acquaint-
ed wdth his dii^osition and sentiments;, aiul by a knowledge
tfaucfbtmded and acquired, he: could venture to affirm, with
die frilled confidence, that there was not a noble Lord in that
Hon^ however zealous, vronld be further from entering intoji
oc coKlperatxng in, any design for orvcrtuming the liberties ef
\mi. GDUBtry, than he wouU.;. He therefore wished that tbfi.
wddeDoke would explain himself^ for however flattering or
pteas i ng .hiK.Qgicc?s sem i ro c nts might be respecting. himxUt
78 PARLIAMENTARSr A??77^
ittook off entirely from the pleasure it wcmld othetwiaeitfaiiM^
wbiiff k was founded in an insinuation- agaiiwt anbtbeil^ mi
given at his expence. : : : :fr-.r/r)-)>
■\ The -Duke of MnrwheTter rose again, and suisuKd his l«otd-
ship> that he had nointention of directly aUudiHg to: thenobte
Lordi who had, unintentionally in him, been the..su6jeGt^
conversation. . ....,;.: -^rt-j
. The Lwd Viscount Dudley observed, that the whoI^:stat&.
of the evidence given the preceding day. at their LordsHijnF;
bar^had a direct contrary effect upon him from that poroposdK
by those who combated the bill; lor he thought when the mK
terests of this country, the manning of our. navy» the incrcaas-
c^ our seamen, and the employment of our own people, caihe^
in competition with the pretended hardships and severities? 0f
the Ull, he not only thought that it should receive the appro*;
bati(m of the house on the ground it was taken up <mi \mk.
that.it ought to be made perpetual, in order to secured l(vcr
to this country so valuable and important a branch o£ conob*;
,mcrGC. The colonies were at present spared, by the lenitjr
and mildness of administration, who might carry fire andk
sword throughout the whole continent of America^ He saidi
he totally differed from the noble Marquis, as to the conchli*
sions he drew from the comparative state of the evideince of
Mr. Watson, and its siq>posed agreement with, that now oir
their Lordships* table, relative to the exports to America is»
1^64, as he thought them both equally erroneous. The¥^«
ness said, that the entries at the custom-house are generalljr
more by one-third than the goods really shipped; and that hd.
and the rest of his brethren put into a box unsigned papery,
containing an account of what each of them exported. Will
any fioble Lord in this House affirm that there could be an
accuracy in such a mode, whereby every man was at liberty to
set down any quantity he thought proper, without a poenbd*;
lity of detection ? If such be the information this House is to^
be guided by, I am certain that no reliance ought to be hadl
on it; and that it proves only one thing, that both accomts/
ought equally to be rejected. He said, two of the noUe Lcrds
who spoke on the other side, seemed much to lament^ andftdb
greatly for the distresses of the Americans; but said not ;A->
syllable of the present miseries of our own manufactorera tti*
home, who were daily dismissed for want of employmeati and)
whose sufferings would, he feared, if not prevented by tKfar
bill, or some other of the same nature, become intolecafaick:
For his part, he lived in the neighboiurhood . of one^cibtfasi
gtrcBtest xnamiiacturing towns in t£; kingdom^ fflkmingltfuiijj
-.and
A;r77^ ">t) E B A T E' ». ^p
and'there the staWcf trade, and the want of work was iswcfai
that shiduld it continue much longer, the most dreadful con^
sequences were justly to be dreaded.
Lord Camditt^ I have so often troubled your Lordships on
the subject of America, that on every new occasion of speak-
ing to it, I rise with great unwillingness and reluctance to
encroach on your Lordships* attention; and indeed, I feel
myself not a little wearied with the fruitless efforts I have
umformly made since this business has been in agitation.
My opinion, on the rights of England, and the rights of
America is well known. I first formed it on the clearest con-
Tfction, and it continues the same to this day. This opinion
F have npifbrmly maintained ^ but the great and certain ma-
jorities in both Houses of Parliament, and the great nmn-
bcrSj for I admit there are such, perhaps the majority with-
out doors, difiering from those opinions, and overbearing
with a high and powerful hand our feeble efforts, have almost .
w^saried me into despair of obtaining any thing in this ques-
tion, or oft this subject, by argument or debate: and I would
dot^now giyeyour Lordships this trouble, but from a consi-
deration of the duty in which I stand, as a member of this
Houses to = interpose my endeavours towards the vindication
of justice,- and the service of my country. For this purpose,
and in tMs debate, it will not be necessary to go into the se-
veral clafls6s of the bill with a minute exactness. It will be
sufficient for yont* Lordships to consider the general nature
a|id;x^aracter of the biU, to advert to its operation and ten-
dbbcyy atid-to estimate its fitness and its wisdom by the qua-
lities that ^hall be dii^covered in its nature and character, and
bjr.'ffie consequetices that are to result from it.
. vTlfis bill, my Lords, is held out to us in various lights, and
nndtir various characters. It is sometimes described to us as a bill
of thtde and cotnmef cial regulation, to regulate and restrain
North American commerce, and in so doing to strengthen and
encrease the commercial interest of this country. At other
tilfltts we are told it is a bill of political operation; that it is
to encreas^r our maritime power by augmenting the British
fisbery at Newfoundland; and it is most industriously incul-
catedby official [Ld. Sandwich] authority, that the fishery of
Great Britain and Ireland there, is the great, and perhaps the
ctedy source of our marine. We are told by some, that thisis a
faQsof firmness and of vigour, to fill up the measure of justice,
?aid''t<r inflict condign punishment on the obstinate and rebelli-
ous cdHnists; but other of your Lordships informs m,^h2Xki
it j;4>iUi of mercy and clemency, kind and iadulginit -l^tVa^
Americans^ calcuJated to soothe their minOis, ?nvd xo Iv^oxxt
8o PARLIAMENTARY A. i^xf .
and assist their interest. But my Lordsj the true chara(ctgr q£
the bill is violent and hostile. My Lords, it is a bill aT-nvas^
it draws the sword, and in its necessary consequences pluoget
the empire into civSl and unnatural war. This, my Lprds^ is
the true description of the bill; and the various contradictoiy
opinions on it, which I have already stated, will be found by
your Lordships, — -. when you consider this subject
with due attei^tion, not only contradicted by themselves, but
by the truth and reason of things. The evidence yesterday
produced at your bar, was anxiously examined^ to prove tks
beneficial effects of the bill to this country, boith In tte
commercial and political character; but when your Lordshin
recollect the persons who appeared at your bar, to decadf
points of such importance and such magnitude, jou will
reject with due contempt their petty and interested tcst>*
mony. A Mr. Lyster, of Poole, and a Captain Davis, wpn^
to instruct your Lordships in the political system of Gscat
Britain and America. Mr. Lyster, of Poole, was to ocm-
vince your Lordships, that the profits of the commerce, of
America did not enrich this county; and Mr. Lyster^- of
Poole, and his brother-politician, were to satisfy the ]effab^
ture of this country, that the utter destruction of American
trade would strengthen the navy, and. invigorate the marinq
of England! and from their redoubtable testimony we were
to believe, that the fishery at present carried on by Nar«
England, might be supplied and continued by a suffiofiot
number of men and ships from Great Britain and Irelaofir
that foreign markets should still be amplj furnished; an^
thatiive or six hundred thousand pqimds, the value of .tjbe
North American fishery, should be continued, if not.ea<-
creaseid, to this country^ by our own efibrts, indcpcndpatiy
of them! Why, my Lords, or how? Because Mr. Lyster, of
Poole, and his friend. Captain Davis, were to gain two. or
three hundred pounds a vear by the operation of this iaSL
Your Lordships see the frivolous and contemptible natnie of
such evidence. The .narrow and interested minds of su^h
men are totally unfit for such mighty discussions. Hieur
little distorted scale of understanding cannot comprize,, nos
comprehend the policy of nations; but a noble Lord, ati£c
head of a naval department, warmly support3 this bill, bi>
cause, in his opinion also, it is to derive prodigious advauw
tages to Our navy. I do not wonder at the noble Lorcfs qpw
bracing every idea which seems to have that tendency; bufc 1
cannot agree that these advantages to our navy, so contend^
;md hoped for, even if they were ^^roved^ are to be decisive
A^'^tjTs. 'DEBATES. ^ St
iSffguntwitt tb your Lordships to commit this bill. Though
oiif niyy ircfe to receive the addition of five hundred sea-
ibttii or five thousand, I cannot think wth the noble Lord,
that Mre are therefore merely to give effect to a measure,
which involves the fetal ruinous consequences that I shall
have the honour of submitting to your Lordships. But,
inj Lords, it is much relied on, that our general trade
will not su-Sfer, nor diminish, by the particular restiictions
imposed on our American fishery by this bill. My lords,
AJs is a question of the most doubtful and dangerous
nature, and requires the most circumspect attention from
your Lordships. The benefits of trade we know are infinite,
and the .danger of tampering with it is in proportion.
When we consider its circuity, the various lines it forms,
an4 the many channels ' through which its several streams
flow |o. a commbn center, we shall find it is cacy to disturb,
but niosf difiicult to restore, the complicated arrangement.
,Thc sources are so subtile, and the ccmpiication so, intri-
cate, that these golden streams^ if once disturbed, may be
irrecovefably lost, and may imperceptibly glide into chan-
neb the most hostile and pernicious. But, it has been
observed "* arid argued, that in this great question, trade is
a secondary consideration 5 th?.t it is subordiriate to tlic
great discussions of polity involved in. this argument. We
sire then to understand that this is the state of the question;
that to maintain a legislative power over America, is the pri-
mary, the sole, and the necessary object ^ for the attainment
of ivhich, and for the reduction of the colonies to an unli-
mited obedience^ all considerations of the benefits of trade,
be they what they may, and of the minous mischiefe of
its loss, be they however certain and fatal, are to be sus-r
pended ; that we are to contend through every hazard, and
in neglect of every other, for thl^ grand object, the establish-
ment of supreme dominion, Folantas pro imperio* I wish,
my Lords, to bring the argunjent to its true grounds ; to
place the question cm its proper basis ; and then to submit to
your Lordships whether^ on the real state of it, your wisdom
and equity will, for stich an object and in exclusion of all
other, entail on your country such calamities . as I mamtsiin
must result from. the biH, the calamities of civil war. Be-
fore wise and good men draw the sword, they consider whe-
ther the war in which they ztt going to engage be just,
practicable, and necessary. Unless the war, which this
measipre must produce, be found to have these qualities, it
cannot be imagined that your Lord^ps will give your sanc-
VoL. IL G tiatL
82 PARLIARfENTARY ^1775-
tion to it. The consideration of the justice o£ the measure.
contended for, will bring your Lordships to the originml
cause of contention. Taxation, As to the right of taxing
America, my ideas on that subject must ever continue^ the
same ; though I am not now to give them to your Lord-
ships. I am tongue-tied on that question. It is now en-
acted kw, and is not at present, nor on this occasion, to be
brought into debate. JI3ut the exercise of that right, we
may alv/ays fiilJy examine into. Now, my Lords, I xntist
humbly submit to your Lordships, that we have attempted
the exercise of this right of taxation, as some of your Lord-
ships r»re plear.cd to c'/.ll it, most unwarrantably, and pur-
sued it Tnofit unv.MS',4/, ?^s the events have proved. An East-
fndia-si^.ip, fr;e.igbted with tra^ goes to Boston. A mob, and
a very inconj;idrr?.ble mob, destroy it. No requisition is made
for satisfactiojij which v/oiild have been given : no step is-
taken towards accommodation^ which would have been ef-
fected *, )io cnqiiiry is iiistituteid into the transaction; but
yoii }n'ocecd, without hearing the parties, without distinguish*
ing the innocent from the guilty, or examining whether any
were guilty jt all, you proceed to block up the harbour,
dtstroy their trade, and reduce the whole country to the deep-
est distrc'sr;. And for v^hat, my Lord ? For a transaction
v/hieh every American disclaimed, and ncne have attempted"
to justify. Pursuing the same spirit, you arbitrarily intro-
duce a tclal chnngc into their constitution. You violate
their cliarter-rights of chusing their own council, their
own assembly, and their magistrates ', and invest the governor
with these privilcgt^s. You rivet the dependence of their
judges, by making them removeable at pleasure. You pack
their juries, by a bene placito sheriff. And thus, my Lords,
are anniiiilatcd all the securities of their freedom and happi-
ness. In criminal matters, the tyrannical stvitute of Henry
the Eighth is revived, and the most oppressive partiality is
cstabliphed. If an 7\merican kills an Englishman, he is
dragged hither, far from his neighbours, his friends, his
v^itne^'ses \ from all possibility of vindicating his innocence.
If ah Englishman kills an American, he is brought home to
his own country, to be tried with all advantages, and with-
out testimony or circumstances to prove his guilt. These^
my Lords, arc part of the oppressions you have accumulated
on America j and to repel them, the Americans have united
their counsels and their valour ; and, my Lords, I must
maintain that tlicy are justified in their union. But, my
Ic^icls^ son^videjisi are most industriously circulated, extolling
the
A. i77y. D E B iA T E S. i^
the irresistible oi:^ipotefice of Pairliaoient ^ thut th^e ii«cr«ia»
of tlve I^islaturc must be obeyed^ be thsy whait they mayj
Wiiiiout doubt) and without appeal. A tfYCtCDd deaa [Dr.
Tucker, dean of Gloucest^3 preaches these unlimited doo^
trines, in his book on the subject of America i and a pamphlet
published a few days ago, " Taxation no Tpanny," I kno^
not the author, [DoAor Johnson,] speaks : the same lan<»
guage I the press indeed abounds i^rith politics and pamphlets^
studiously endeavouring to enforce the samf principlea.
But, my Lords, I have learned - other principles and other
doctrines, and I learned them from a court-writer ; but h^
was a writer in support of the court and the politics of Wil«^
liam the Third. Mr. Locke wrote his Book on Governs
ment in defence of King William's title to the crown ; and
Mr. Locke proves, in tli^t inestimable treatise, that the peo^
pie are justified in resistance to tyranny 5 whether it -be tyranny
assumed by a Monarch,, or power arbitrarily unjust, at-*
tempted by a Legislature. My Lords, the bodies which com-^
pose the Legislature, are invested with that power for the
good of the whole. We are trustees, and can exercise our
powers, only in execution of the great trust reposed in us.
What, my Lords, if both Houses of Parliament, with the
concurrence of the King, if you will, should propose to sur-
render the dearest rights and jn-ivileges of the people; and
the case lately happened in Denmark, almost before our
eyes, and formerly in our own history, in the time of Henry
the Eighth, when parliament voted that his proclamation
should be equivalent to law ; in such cases, are not the peo-
ple justified in resisting ? These, my Lords, are the constitu-
tional doctrines of resistance to arbitrary power in all shapes
whatever. And let me observe, my Lords, that these ar«
the doctrines which establish the present family on the throne.
Their title stands on this solid rock, the principles of Mr.
Locke. I trust then, my I^rds, those slavish? tenets will never
gain ground in this country, and that it will never be un-
derstood the constitution gives you more power than that of
doing right. And when 1 am asked whether the Legi^turo
cannot retract charters, and annual rights, if it thinks proper,
and merely at its own will, I say, my Lor,d9i it cannot-^^
I say it catmot. They may be lost, they may be forfeited!
but they are not to be arbitrarily sported with, and wantonly
violated. And, my Lords, when such is the conduct hell
against America, when the severest and most comprehensive
punishments are inflicted, without examining the offence ^
when their constitutional liberties are destroyed ; when their
G 2 charters,
$4 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^ ,
eharterf and^ their rights are sacrificed to the vindictive spirit^
of the moment ; when you thus tear up all their privifegcr
by the rootis^ v is there a country under Heaven^ breathing
the last grasp of freedom^ that will not resist such oppres*
Aons, and vindicate, on? the oppressors heads, such viola-'
tions of juistice i Vith^, my Lords, whether the proposed
measure (rf severity and war be practicable or not, is also
most serifously deserving of your Lordships* attention. To
conquer ai gi^eat continent of 1 800 miles, containing three
millions Gff peofile, ali indissolubly onked on the great
Whig bottom al liberty and justice, seems an undertaking not
to He rashly engaged in> It is said by a poble Lord [Lord
Dudley] that only oar mildness and lenity save them fron>
utter desolation, and prevent our carrying fire and sword
through their country. But I believe it is certain that wc
Would hav r done so, if we could j^ and that nothing but ina-
bility has prevented our proceeding to the most hostile ex-
tremes of violence and devastation ; if we may judge from
what has been done in that line, in which alone any thing
Can hope to be eft'ected. But, my Lords, where are you to
get men and money adequate to the service and expence thiat
the reduction of such a continent must require ? What are
the 10,000 men you have just voted out to Boston ? Merely
to save General Gage from the disgrace and destruction of
being sacked in his entrenchments. It is obvious, my Lords,
that you cannot furnish armies, or treasure, comj>etent to
the mighty purpose of subduing America. It is obvious that
your only efforts can be by your naval power ; and, as far
as. those effqrts can have eftect, ynu may certainly expect
success : at least when we consider America slone : but
whether France and Spain will be tame, inactive spectators of
your efforts and distractions, is well worthy the cbnsidera*
tions of your I^ordships. But admitting full success to
your naval efforts, what can they effect ? The blocking up
their ports, and the suppression of their trade. But will
this procure the conquest of America? No, my Lords;
they are prepared to meet these severities, and to surmount
them. They are applying themselves most diligently to
agriculture, that great source of strength and independence-
Foreseeing the important crisis, they have provided against
its wants ; ' and have imported into their country stores of in-
dustry, implements of husbandry and manufacture. They
have united in the rejection of luxury and superfluous en-
joyment4 They have suppressed their public diversions »
formerly common enough in their great and wealthy, towns ;
and
A. 1775- D E B A T t'S. *" «f.
and every man attaches himself wholly to the great bosilieBs:
of his country. Sutrh is the state of America. She has cur-
tailed her expences^ she has reduced her table; ^he has*
cloathed herself in mean and coarse stufis; she has adopted^
the wise system of frugal industry.^ lier wants can be only
ideal, imaginary, nothing. But, my Lords, what will be
the state of this civilized, enlightened,^ dissipsKed and de-
bauched country? How shall the want ^f American com-
merce be supplied, of that commei'ce whith contributes the
means of your luxury, of your enjoyments, i^ the imagi-
nary happiness of this country? We may feel the loss of
American connection, a loss which nothing can compensate}-
but America will have little rea^n to regret her disconnection
from England; and, my Lords, it is evident that En^and
must one day lose the dominion of America. It is impossible
that this petty island can continue in dependence that mighty ,
continent, encreasing daily in numbers and in strength.
To protract the time of separation to a distant day Is all that
can be hoped; and this hope might be obtained by wise
and temperate counsels; not by precipitation and violence,
uniting America against you ; for so it is, my Lords.
There is not a man in America, who can endure the idea"
of being taxed, perhaps to the amount of his whole pro-
perty, at pleasure, by a legislature 3000 miles distant; or
who can separate t^ic idea of taxation from representation*
The groimdless and interested rumours that are spread, of
disagreement and discord among the Americans, can only
impose on the grossest ignorance. They are considered as the
cry of the court, the talk of the times, and the cue of the
day, and meet with the contempt they deserve. But, my
Lords, when administration attempt to join in the imposture,
I cannot but think it most humiliating and disgraccfuL And,
my Lords, such is the attempt made in the exception in fk^
vour of New York. The world is to be deceived into an
opinion, that New York is detached from the general cause,
and this dirty, humiliating contrivance, is to create distrust
and (Esunion in America 5 and this, when the directly con-
trary state of the province is wcil known. Did not they
send delegates to the congress? To that congress, which I
shall ever maintain to have been strictly justifiable. And,
my Lords, the committee is now in the town, most heartily
and unanimously coroperating and enforcing the genera
cause. Such mean insidious attempts tp undermine the Ame-
rican union, only prove its solidity and firmness, which are
otherwise not to be attacked or shaken, and against which,
G3 Tjik
M PARLIAMENTARY A. i??^;.
'^U.JOitf efforts of war must be vain and iinpractical>le.— •
Butf mj Lordsj an objection may be made to this account
of the fowertai and invincible state of America. It will be
saidy that if Endand cannot enforce obedience, and curb
any refractory £spQsition that may arise in the coloniesy
Aoierica might at any time revolt, and shake off* the ant*
tbority of the mother-country. But the answer, my Lordsj
is this; that Apierica derives the invincible strength I have
de8cribe4« from her unicm, which can only be produced by
the oppressions of this country; for, my Lords, the state
of America is- such, that union can never originate in her-*
9elf. And this was wisely consulted in the original settle^
V&ent of that ccmtinent, by the different constitutions given
to the diSerent provinces, forming them of such divers textures
and dispositions, as pot easily to unite or assimilate. Some
received royal charter governments; some, provincial; and
9ome, proprietary. Some were shaped in the mould of mo-
narchy j others received the form of pure democracy; and
even these last were granted in a reign in which the most ar-
bitrary counsels disgraced the throne. But the ministers of
this prince [Charles the Second] wisely detached them from
each other, knowing that different forms of government
would give them different directions. And so it was. They
could nzvcTy from themselves, merely coincide or co-operate.
You mi^ht as easily have reconciled fire and water, as have
bro'.iT:lit Virginia to shake hands with Pennsylvania, or asso-
ciated New York to the Massachusetts Bay. And if any
one colon/ could have ever been infatuated into an attempt
entirely to throw off the dependence on this country, she
would have had few or none to join her. The contf*sf
woiiiJ then be cpeedily decided, and very different would be
the e Torts of divided America against united England, from
the force which now resists you, the collected force of
united America against Eiigland weakened and divided.
For such, my Lords, is the state to which the present mea-
sures .have brought both countries. At home, dliicontent and
division prevail j and in America it was reserved for the wis-
dom of these times to produce such an union as renders her
invincible. The Americans are now united and cemented
by the strongest ties. They are allied in the common de-
foice of every thing dear to them. They are struggling
pro arts et focis^ in support of their liberties and properties^
and the most sacred rights of mankind. Thus associated by
strongest mutual engagements, and aided by their mutual
hj pounded on the justice of their cause, I must as-
A.1775- D- E B^ A T E S, :«7
sert and rqpsat, my Lords, that your efforts agaihat theni
.must be successless, and your war impracticable. AndhgJMr,
my Lords, it remains to be considered, whether the W9X
which this bill must produce, be necessary; for without
. necessity, it will not be contended that any war should be
undertaken; much less a civil war, which in the first in-
stance proscribes, and drives to famine, sitc],i multitudes o£
your fellow-subjects; whole towns and provinces; for it
is well known, that the fishery is not only the trade, but in
a great measure the food of New E/igland. Now it can*
not appear that this ruinous measure, fraught with all fatal
consequences, both to them and ourselves, is necessary; un-
less it appears that every prudent and proper endeavour has
been made to accommodate, to conciliate, and to pacify.
If such endeavours have been used, and used in vain, then,
my Lords, there might be some colour for the present vio-
lence. But it is notorious, that not the temper of modera-
tion and humanity, but the spirit of violence and proscrip-
tion has uniformly actuated your counsels. In the f*rst in-
stance, without the forms of justice, for a partlcuKir fault,
you inflicted general punishment. You proceeded, from their
trade, to their municipal rights, to their constitutions, their
charters, their liberties ; and now, this bill of famine and
of war finishes the climax of severity. Such have been the
counsels and the measures of administration. Qther coun-
sels have been given; and different measures have been
proposed; but they have not been even considered; they
were rejected with disdain; though they came from a per-
sonage, whose character gave them authority, arid ought
to have jMrocured them respect ; a great man, [Earl of Chat-
ham] the greatest perhaps that this age or this country has
produced, to whom this country owes her present prosperity,
and, I am sorry to say ity her pride, her pride of conquest^
which has infatuated her, even in this impracticable war,
with the idea^ of victory, and certain success; that great
man, from whose opinions, though some of your Lordships
may sometimes diflFer, yet there is not one of your Lord-
ships who does not pay homage to his consummate capacity,
his extensive talents, his great services, and his age, when he
delivers those opinions from his place. I lament that I do
not see him there. That great man did propose to you a
plan of conciliation between this country and her colonies.
How was it received ^ It was treated with the most scornful
contempt; rejected without being looked into; spumed,
trampled upon ! I protest, my liOrds, I am afflicted with
. G 4 - '-'
88 PARLIAMENTARY A.r775A
griefs when I reflect pa the proceedings of that dayi .in sQcH
an arduous moment^ that such a plan> the labour of sufix tm^..
lents aii4 such experience, should be rejected/ even from font .
consideration, unlooked into, with such indecent indignity* •.
Erase it from your books; obliterate the transaction fronl
your records; let not posterity be contradicted by history^
that such could have been your conduct towards such a iban'!
So much, my Lords, for conciliatory plans in this Hoiud '
In another House of Parliament, when a noble Lord, {Jbard '
North] whose character I by no means intend to reject on^ ,
or to mention with disrespect — ^whcn'hc proposed what was .
conceived in some degree to tend towards conciliationj there
was immediately a general alarm> it oreajted almost a civfl ■.
war amon^t his troops; and the confusion was univei^;
till some 0^ the veteran and principal officers brought back
their general, and fixed and ascertained him on the old
ground of severity. Nothing conciliatory therefore has been ■
proposed from administration, or received fix)m any other
quartei-: but an uniform system of maxims, doctrines, and
me<\&afes of yiolancc, has been maintained. And surely^
before you resolved on measures of such magnitude, where
the event is at leafit hazardous, and certainly of the extremest
importance, it was your duty to have tried all possible means
of ienityj accommodation and of prevention, and not have
rushed into such fatal calamities, till impelled by the last ne-
cessity. As it appears to me therefore, my Lords, that thc,
war in which this bill must involve this country, is neither
just, practicable, nor necessary, I must give my vote against
committing the bill.
In the course of the debate the Duke of Grafion adverted
pardailarly to this matter, and was extremely anxious to re-
move the impressions made by Lord Camden. I rejoice, said *
the Dnke, that in speaking before so numerous an audience
I can describe the true state of this transaction, and prevent
its prossi g the Atlantic in improper colours. When the
noble Earl proposed his bill, could such a bill be expected?
CouM any man imagine a person of his v/isdom and CAperi-
eiice ■ (and I have ?t\[ respect for his abilities, but would
speak even if he were present, with the Same freedom I' now
do) of his parliamentary experience, would propose a bill
which must involve us m fatal disputes with the Commons;
^ a bill which was to' reneal nine acts of Parliament , a*id many
* of them revenue actsi But let his plan have been what it
would, it was not spurn^id from this House; it is yet in
this House; it now lii^s on your table. ..
Th«
A*^77^ "^ 1> £ B A T -E' S.^ .«j*
The^Lotd Caniikn replied, desiring Jib Grace to fa te ii upt
him, if hemts-^ated lum. He then* recapitulated his own
idea, aiid the Dtlkke's conception of it; maintahibig his'
fofmer assertion, that Lord ChaAam's planhad bciai reject-
ed with- the utmost contempt: that though from siich a
man, atfd'for such a purpose, it* could not obtain twenty^
four hciufs con^deration, hut had been instantly crusbel.:
That it- was indeed wi their tabte, but that it was there in
^ 4tate of perdition; only that it might be entered on their •
journals with that indecent hirry [a favourite word of the.
Dii^e of Grafton's, in a former debate on this subject] it
had been- rejected. Tliat if it proposed the repeal ctf,niiQC.
acts of parliament, revenue acts, or any othdi', QrfiftJ-,*his .
Grace might have objected to those obnojdous passages,. cm
the consideration of it; a consideration which it sO weQ de-.
served, but did not receive; being rejected with contempt on
its first reading.
The Duke Sid not think proper to rqoxn.
The Earl of Sandfvich. The noble Lord [Camden] meia- '
tions the impracticability of conquering America; I cannot
think the noble Lord can be serious on this matter.. - Sup-
pose the colonies do abound in men, what does that signify? '.
they are raw, undisciplined, cowardly men. I wi^ instead of .
40 or 50,000 of these brave fiellows, they woul^ produce in .
the field at least 200,000, the more the better^ the easier
would be the conquest; if they did not' run away, they would
starve themselves into compliance with our measures. I will
tell your Lordships an anecdote that happened at the siege of
Louisburg: Sir Peter Warren told me, that, in order to try
the courage of the Americans, he ordered that a great num-
ber of them should be placed in the front of the army; the
Americans pretended at first to be very much elated at this
mark of distinction, and boasted what mighty feats they
would do upon the scene of action; however, when the mc^-
mdiit came to put in execution this boasted courage, behold^
every one of them run from the front to the rear of the army, ^
with as much expedition as their feet could carry them,
and threatened to go off entirely, if the commander offered to
madce them a shield to protect tl^ British soldiers at the ex-
pence of their blood; they did not understand such usage.
Sir Peter finding what egregious cowards they were, and
knowing of what importance such numbers must be to inti-
midate the French by their appearance, told these American
heroes, that his orders had been misunderstood, that he al*
ways intended to keep them in the rear of the army to make
the
90 PARLIAMENTARY As 1775,
the great push; that it was the custom of generab to preserve
the best troops to the last; that this was always the Ronuupi
custom, sUid as the Americans resembled the Romans ii^ cvsiy
particular, especially in courage and a love to their coum^,
he should make no scruple of following the Roman custom,
^d made no doubt but the modem Romans would shew
acts of bravery equal to any in ancient Rome. By such
discourses as these, said Sir Peter Warren, I made a shift to
keep them with us, though I took c:ire they should be pushed
forward in no dangerous conflict. Now, I can tell the noUe
Lord, that this is exactly the situation of all the heroes in'
North America; they are all Romans; and are these the loeo
to fright ns from the post of honour? Believe me, my LcMrds»
the very sound of a cannon would carry them off, in Sir Ps-
ter^s words, as £ast as their feet could carry them* This is
too trifling a part of the argument, to detain your Lordships
any longer. The noble Earl then went on to abuse the Ame-
ricans for not paying their debts; he made no doubt that the
real motive of their associations was to defraud their, credi-
tors. That the congress, on which the noble Lord (^Lord
Camden] had passed high encomiiuns, was a seditious and
treasonable meetinrr of persons assembled to resist the legal
and just authority of Che supreme legislative power; and hoi«^
ever dignified by his Lordship, or any other noble Lord ip
that House, he should always continue to describe it by the
latter appellation, and no other, as its only true and proper
name. His Lordship entered into a long examination of the
purport of the evidence given at the bar by Messrs. Lister,
Davis, Shuldham,. and Paliiser; and laboured to prove, that
^he present bill, whatever other objects it might take in, was
not, nor ought to be, a bill of intimidation or experiment,
iHit a perpetual law of commercial regulation, operating to ex^
tend our trade, to encrease our seamen, and strengthen our
naval power.
The Lord Wycombe j [Earl of Shelbume] after - stating at
large the nature of the Newfoundland fishery, and its great
importance to this country, observed, that unless the present
bill was taken up as a permanent, commercial regulation,
that an object of however great a magnitude it might be, it
was by no means at present before the House. You are
told, it is in proof before you, that the people of Nan-
• tucket, the inofFending, peaceable inhabitants of that island,
will be deprived of every means of sustenance and support, "
thoold this bill pass into a law. It remains yet uncontradict-
A;I7"7^ D E B A T E S. 94
cd, tha€ Ac people of New-England have not <orm nsaalj
sufficient raised for their own consumption; imd thi* b^
says, they rfiall not be supplied dsewhcre. How nugatory
and ridiculous it is, then, to talk of commercial reguktioi^
which is supposed to include improvement and protaGtioQ^
when that regulation is immediately directed to starve an4
6ppress one jpart of your subjects, to whom there i« not so
much as -any^ crime or offence imputed, in order to giv^ conif-
mercial advantages to another. But if the several laws vfk
being, for the improvement of the Newfoundland fishery are
not sufficient, or that the admiralty, in whose department it
is, satisfy Parliament that those powars have been properly
exerted, and are found to be inadequate, let a bill be brouglu
in for that purpose. I am convinced of the very great im-
portance of the fishery; and no man in this House will be
more zealous, however deficient in ability, to give it hismpst
warm support, than I shall be. His Lordship next adverted
to the sedentary fishery, given up to Canada by the Quebec
fell, and folly explained the great pains taken by the two
▼cry able men who preceded him at the board of trade,
Charles Townshcnd and a certain noble Lord and him-
self, to annex the fishery of Labradore, &c. to that of New-
foundland* He gave the most flattering testimony to the at-
tention and great abilities of Sir Hugh ralliser, to whom he
entrusted the entire negociation of that difficult affair with
the Count de Guerchy, the French minister. • He entirely
coincided in sentiments, he said, with the noble Lord [Lord
Camden] who called this a bill of pains and penalties, and
coercion, not of commercial regulation. He agreed with
him likewise, that the popular tide was against him ; but he
was certain .it would not be long before it took a different
turn, and would run another way, as the people would find
they were deceived, and Parliament would at length disco»>
ver they were misinformed and misled. He, therefore, as a
member of that body^ put in his early claim of objecting
to the current ministerial language, that Parliament did this,
and Parliament did that, for he insisted that Parliament had
done nothing, it was the ministry had done all. Attend only
a minute to their conduct, says his Lordship, and you
will see, that what I have now advanced is strictly true.
They have laid before us a mutilated correspondence, precise*
ly calculated to answer certain purposes. On one hand,
they have suppressed whole letters, and of such as they have
laid before us, they have only given partial extracts; on the
other,
9T PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
odier, tlicy have hdd back the whole of the official letters
on this side of the water, one or two of no consequence onh*
excepted. Will any noble Lord in this House seriously at
Urm, that whatever proceedings have been taken on sudiin^.
lonnatiouj can be deemed the proceedings of ParliameiA^?
or that any minister, or set of ministers, will be permitted to
5creen themselves under the protection of Pdrliament^ vfh&i
it shall be discofvered, that the measures recommended and
adc^ed, were framed on facts mis-stated, or for want of ma-
terial ones, designedly suppressed? His Lordship concluded
his speech with observing the strange diversity of sentitnent
whidi prcvaDed among the several leading members in admi^
tiistration. He alluded to the plan of conciliation proposed
by a noble Lord in the other House,. [Lord North] whidi
was instantly reprobated. He then observed, that of several
of the noble Lords no two of them scarcely thought alike; .
iome were for commercial regulation, others for asserting
the right, without wishing for a paltry revenue, and a very
considerable body for the right and revenue both. This
state of things, he said, put him in mind of a general whom
he served uncter in Germany, a native of that country, who
first desired the regiments at the right to form to the lefti
then again to the right, then to the rear, again to the right
about. That the troops, after being harassed for two (&yf
by those absurd contradictory manoeuvres, at last found
themselves in the place they set out from, without niaking
the least way, on which the general desired every cOrps to
march as they liked, so as to make their way in thfe most
speedy manner to the place of their destination. He hoped, .
kowever. Englishmen would never copy the slavish obedi-
ence of Germans, but would learn to act themselves, and
spurn the command and direction of those who knew neither
to lead them to victory, nor protect them from ruin and
defeat.
The Earl of SuifoVn totally disapproved of some of the
reasoning employ^:d, and facts alluded to by a noble Lord
in office [the Earl of Sandwich]. He said, that noble Lord's
insinuations and assertions, that the Americans were shy or
bashfiil, or, in plain English, would not fight, were what he -
cdujd hot approve of. He believed, there were as brave men
in that country as in any other; and though the fact was
otherwise, he could never hear it asserted with any degree of
satisfaction, that there was any part of the King's subjects
.deficient in that degree of personal oourage, for which the
uriiole were so justly renowned. There was another point
T3:vach.
A. 1775. D E 6 A T E S. . jjFj
much laboured by the same noble Lord, to which he could
never give his assent j and he was sorry to hear it relied on,
and so much adverted to in the course of the debate j that
was, that the present bill was meant to be i measure of per-*
manent commercial regulation, distinct, jfrom its main, objects
This, he said, wak by.no means the intention of its original •
firamers ; it was intended as a bill of coercion, to oblige the
people of New-England to submit to the legal and just power
of the mother country, and that the faith of Parliament,
would be pledged to them, to restore the fishery, as soon as
it should appear that they had returned to their former obe-
dience. His Lordship then proceeded to defend the bill on
that idea ; and, in answer to what had been said relative to .
the diversity of opinions which prevailed among the King's -
servants, he was certain there was not a second among them .
as to the material question of the right, and the means of
exerting it. As to the ccMiciliatory motion in the other
House, he owned that many of the members of it were much
staggered, and very justly so, till it came to be explained;,
and for his part, he should be much grieved if there was not
as great a majority against it as there appeared for it, if tlie
motion had not admitted of the obvious sense it did when .
it came to be examined. He again repeated, how happy he
was in being one of the persons who advised the dissolution
of Parliament, as the designs and expectations of America,
were at once frustrated and broken by that measure; and
concluded in replying to what the noble Marquis dropped
early in the debate, that the repeal of the stamp act was
the source from which all our present confusions- had to-
tally originated.
The Earl of .Radnor said, he was at the throne, goir^ out,
not intending to vote on either side, when he heard the last
noble Earl pledge the faith of Parliament, that so valuable
a branch of our commerce was intended . to be given up ta
the New-Englanders, as a sacrifice for their returning to their
duty." It was an improper language to be held in that.
House, nor was the policy in. every respect less exception-
able; for both which reasons he had returned to give his
voice against the bill.
The Earl of St^ffolk to explain. He said, he did. not mean !
as a minister to pledge the faith of Parliament, nor did he
promise the people of New-England that the fishery should
be given up ; the intentions he wished to, impress or hc^d
out, being only, that the present bill was not -a bill. of
commercial regulation, but a bill of coercion; which, as
soon
94 PARLIAMEl^TARY A, 1775.
soon as the ends proposed were attained, would certainlj be
repealed, leaving Parliament nevertbeleu to take the nutter
up on motives oiF policy. . r
The Earl of Radnor, iiot at all satisfied with this explana-
tion, adhered to his former opinion, and declared, tkat. hs
could not, in conscience, give his vote in favour of. a bill«
obedience to which was to be purchased on the implied csm^
ditions of sacrificing the most important branch of commcyrce
belonging to the British empire.
The Duke of Grafton said he had not the least difiictdty
in giving his vote on the present occasion, as it did not^ in
his opinion, rest on the question so much agitated on both
sides of the House ; the question of taxation, so impropeij/
introduced into the debate. The present bill, he insbtecit
was founded on the principle of retaliation and punisluneotf
for an outrage as daring as it was unprovoked, still furthier
heightened and aggravated by a resistance to all lawftil sii>>
tliority, and almost a positive avowal of a total independence
on the mother country. On these grounds the pro^iety lof
the present bill could only be fairly argued ; and the mbtivjes
of retaliation in one instance, and a with-holding the bene£ts
only due to a dutiful and obedient conduct in. the other,
were what had determined him to give his vote, that the bill
should be committed. His Grace next disclaimed all. ideas
<if taxation and commercial regulation, as being clearly out
of the question. He observed, that a noble Lord in admi^
nistration [Earl of Suffolk] had very improperly imputed ail
the present confusions to the repeal of the stamp act. I was.
the person, -says his Grace, who framed those resolutions, and
had the honour to propose them to a committee of this
House, on which the bill for that repeal was afterwards
formed, brougjit in, said passed. I was then tlxe advocate,
and stiil take a particular pride in being the steady friend of
America. The delicacy of my situation then, as well as
now, will not permit me to satisfactorily explain the motives
which led to that repeal, nor the consequent very disagreeable
circumstances which succeeded it, and perhaps now regulate
. my conduct 5 but this however I am at liberty to declare,
that the argument so conlldently urged, that America cori-
tribntes nothing towards the common support, however plau-
sibly maintained, or forcibly expressed, is a fallacious one*
I amrm, . she does contribute largely to the public burthens^
in the great consumption of our manufactures ; and I
should be very sorry to see, that what appears now a spea**
lativc
A. 1775- .D E -B A T E S. - 9$
lative propositiooi liaUe to be controverted, siMSuld ever
come to be demonstrably, nay actually, proved. Will Miy
noble Lord in this House, at all conversant with the tradie
and commerce of this country, contend, that we are not
enabled to pay the great load of taxes we labour under, by
the vast encrease of our exports to that continent.; or that
the various articles of leather, &c. and in short all exciseabk;
commodities exported to -that coimtry, as well as the innu-
merable benefits derived to every part of the three king^
doms, by the circuitous commerce carried on with it, is not
in reality a very great augmentation to our revenue, and .td
every substantia purpose, answers the end of an actual tax,
imaccompanied by any of the disagreeable consequences that
never fail to attend laying burthens on the people, and col-*
lecting it ? A nobk and learned Lord on the other side^
[Lord Camden] seemed to take it for granted, that all
thoughts of conciliation are laid aside y and that this bill is
no less than a positive deciaratiop of war on our part. I
beg leave to differ from tlie learned Lord. I believe that
America will trust to the parental disposition of this country,
where she has many strenuous friends, among which, t
number myself one of the warmest. I trust, therefore, that
she will not blindly rush on her own destruction, an^d there-
by prevent them from serving her ; but return to her duty
and obedience, as the surest means of obtaining a reparatioii
for any injuries she may have sustained. On the whole,
therefore, I sincerely hope, that the present bill will have the
desired effect ; that our fellow-subjects in America will wisely
and dutifully return to their obedience; and, that as in
the present year 1775, we are prosecuting just measures to
bring about so desirable an end, so in the year 1776 we may
be employed in manifesting the most ample proofs of our
removing all cause, or almost possibility of the return of
the same evils, by ascertaining their rights, and the consti-
tutional power of this country, on the most fair, equitaUe»
and permanent foundations. It- was my task on a former
occasion: and I shall with pleasure, in the year 1776, as a
tenuous friend to the just claims of America, unremittingly
labour in the same cause.
The Marquis of Rocking/jam to explain. He observed^
that a noble Lord [Lord Dudley] early in the debate, hadob*
jected to the accounts of the American exports of 1764,. /low
lying on the table, as well as that given by a witness at their
Lordships' bar, [Mr. Watscm] and drew a conclusion ft'esti the
method of obtaining them, one being made up from unsigAQ^
papers.
9tf PARLIAMENTARY A. t77f.
fxptxSf tad, die other frooi false entries; that they were both
erroneous;) and consequently that every dedaction drawn firom
such premises must oe. ecpiiUy fallacious and undeserving of
die least decree of credit or attention » To this his Lordship
answered, nut for the purpose he employed those supposed
bets, it ^^''iotaUv immaterial whether they were correct or
not; the fxpcMts, wr instance, might be 2,7oOi0ool. or only
2,ooo,oodft. the argument either, way waS equally good*
All he meW to pre>ve by stating them, was to shew the vast
cncrease or our trade to America^ from a comparative stato
e£ it at diflTcrent periods. The error, his Lordship said, wat-
uniform; it existed at all times, or not at all. Thus the
custom-house entries said,' the annual exports in 1704 ,were
of foreign goods 17,0001. of home 54,000!. in all 71,000!. in '
1754, i8o,oool. in 1764, in ten years, more than double^
and in the last nine years again, nearly in the same propoi^
tkm, the exports being between seven and 8oo,oooL to New
England alone. His Lordship concluded with observing,
that some noble Lords, who formerly entertained an opinion
of the propriety of the stamp-act, seemed to have since al-
tered their sentiments. He, therefore, called upon them to
declare their minds freely, and not to act under any restraint i
ibr he was ready and willing to unload them of such a
burthen, and bear the whole of the bbme on his owh'
shoulders 5 trusting, on the ^her hand, if it proved a . wise
measure, that he might be entitled to claim the merit thxk&
abandoned.
The Earl of Abingdon said, tjiat reason, justice, conscience^
principle and instinct, all prompted him to pronounce the
bill a most infernal and diabolic measure. How the right reve*
rend bench reconciled it to their consciences, he was unable
to conceive ; for his part, he put his trust in the Almighty j
and though he knew all he could say would avail nothing
against a ministerial majority, yet he cautioned the Lords*
against injustice, as In the judicial visitation of Providence it
generally fell heavy on the heads of those who planned
iniquity.
. This closed the debate, it being past nine o'clock ; and
on a division, the numbers stood thus: for the bill, 104^
against the bill, 29.
March 20.
' Bill reported. No debate.
March 21.
The Earl of Dartmouth moved the third reading of the
The
A- 1^7^ -' D^K^zK jar 3:19^ ^ ^
The ,Eui of Buckif^anuHre dStred so amendmeat. «-« r : >
Thedause, as- it. stood in the iiigtBssed bil^ whicfar/htt
Lordship wished to altera was part of-the'firDhihkor^ chus^
rebtiTe to the fishery, wherejt- was enacted^ that, if any shipi
or vessel, being'-the property of the subjects of 0reat Britain^
not belonging- to, and fitted out from Great' Britain^ Irelandt
0t the islands tif Gilemsey and Jersey, shall :be found,- after
the^othday of July, 1775* carrying on any .fishcnr, rfwhat
nature 6r kind soever, upon ika, banks of Ne9TOundIand»
the coast of Labrador, or within the I'iver or gulph of Sr.
Lawrence, or iq)on the coast of Cape Breton, ot* Nova Scotia^
oranyother part of the coast of North America, or having
on board materials for carrying on* any such fishery, every
such ship or vessel,, with her guns, ammunition, tackle, ap*
parel, and furniture, together with the fish, if any shall be
foQnd,.^shall be forfeited, unless the master, or person having
the charge of such ship or vessel, do produce to the com«
mander of any of his Majest3r's ships of war, stationed for
the protection and superintendance cf the British fisheries in
America, a certificate under the hand and seal of the go*
vemor or commander in chief of any of the colonies or plan*
tarions of Quebec, Newfoundland, St. John's, Nova Scotia,
New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland^ Virginia,
North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, East or West
• Florida, setting forth, that such ship or vessel, expressing her
name, burden, &c. and describing her, hath been fitted out
from some one of the said colonies or plantations :'' His
Lordship moved, that the words New Jersey, Pennsylvania,
Maryland, Virginia, and South Carolina, should be omitted;
and the Lord Iteeper having put the question in the usual
form, that those words stand part of the bill, the house di-
vided, and the non-contents carried it by a majority of 52 to
2 1 ; consequently, the prohibitions of the bill were extended
to the provinces so omitted.^
The Duke of Moruhisttr opposed the amendment* He
^«id, that one-half of the continent of North America was
at once punished by the proposed alteration, without any trial,
fkroof, or enquiry whatever j that such a mode of proceeding
was totally unparliamentary and unprecedented) that it was
no less repugnant to the established rules of equity and judi*
cial decision, which always and in every instance supposed
|he party accused had been heard before judgment was paro-
hounced) and, that if such a mode of executive speedy justice
t^ttre fb obtain in that House, it would b^ productke of. the
jnost dangerous and alanning consequences.
VoL.n. H The
98 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177 j.
The Lord Keeper quitted the woolsack, in order to reply
to the noble Duke. He said, the House was in possession of
evidence, fully sufficient to authorize their Lordships agree*
ing to the proposed amendment; that the papers on their
Lordships table were full of the information necessary to wai*-
. rant it; that at the time the bill originated in the other House,
the information alluded, to was not known; that it appeared
by the several accounts received from the provinces of New
* Jersey, Pennsylvania, &c. that they were equally culpable
with those of New England; and that of course they ought
to suffer under one common punishment.
The Duke of Manchester acceded to the general premises
laid down by the learned Lord; but totally denied the pro-
priety of the inferences and conclusions drawn from them.
He observed, that although the letters stated what his Lord-
ship was pleased to call the disobedient and undutifiil disposi-
' tion of the southern colonies, but what he should always
esteem as a meritorious perseverance in the cause of* freedom,
and a constitutional assertion of their rights, those letters were
no more in the contemplation of the House, in its legislative or
deliberative capacity, than if they had never existed. Have they,
said his Grace, been even so much as read? Have they been
considered ? Have the parties accused been heard in their own
defence? Away then with such pretences. Has not the minister
in the other House, and the House itself, been in possession
of the same information? Why then have not they proceeded
in the same manner? No; however willing they might be to
do it,' they plainly saw the insurmountable difficulties which
lay in their way, and wisely declined it.
The Earl of Abingdon spoke to order. He was answered
by the Earl of Bucks; on which Lord Mansfield said a few
words, in order, to set the matter right.
The Duke of Manchester rose again, and observed, that the
province of New-York was permitted to stand in the bill with
the other favoured provinces, though it was well known that
they had, in their legislative capacity, denied the right of
taxation; and had, conformably to those sentiments, trans*
mitted a petition to the King, a memorial to this House, and
a remonstrance to tlie other. His Grace, therefore, desired
to know the reason why they were singled out from the rest,
wheh the oiFence was the same. He said, he had no objection
to the indulgence; but he could not perceive how their Lordr
ships could reconcile their conduct on this occasion with any
rule of consistency whatever.
The
A. 1775. ^ E B A T £ S. 9^
The Earl of Effingham. I have been well infermed that
a ship has arrived at New-York, and that the people of that
colony absolutely and peremptorily refused to permit any part
of the cargo to \yt landed. I therefore call on some di the
noble Lords in administration to contradict this account if
false, or confirm it if it be true. Should the latter be the
tase, I cannot for my part conceive, €n i^hat ground the pre-
sent exemption in favour of New-York can be defended. .
The Earl of Dartmouth. It is not in my power directly
to contradict, or affirm, the intelligence of the noble Lord.
All I can say on the subject is, that the last account I rc^
ccived was from a gentleman of veracity on the spot, who
writing on the Saturday, and infoiming me of the arrival of
the vessel, assures me, that the goods would be landed on
the Monday following.
The Lord Keeper put the question :
The House divided. For the amendment, 52; agsunst
It 23.
As soon as their Lordships returned above- the bar, the
question was put, that the said bill be read' a third time.
The Lord Keeper added, ** and that the House of Commons
be acquainted, that this House hath agreed to the same with
amendments.'' To this the Duke ot Richmond objected,
as he said, ** he meant to divide the House.'* The House
divided again. For the bill, 73-, against it, 21.
The following Lords divided agamst the bill.
Camden, Scarborough,
Richmond, Cholmondeley,
Devonshire, Abergavenny,
- Portland, Wycombe,
Rockingham, Tor^ington,
Ponsonby, Effingham,
Abingdon, Craven,
Manchester, Leinster,
Courtenay, , Stanhope,
TankerviUe, Archer.
Fitzwilliam,
Dissentient^ Because the attempt to coerce by femine the
whole body of the inhabitants of great and populous pro-
vinces, is without example in the history of this, or perhaps
of any civilized nation : and is one of those unhappy inven-
tions, to which Parliament is driven by the difficulties
which daily multiply upon us, from an obstinate aherence
te an unwise plan of govenmient. We do' not know
exactly the extent of the combination agjun&t o\{s ,co\s\.«
H a TstfK»
10O PARLIAMENTARY A. rvjj.
sverce in K^w-Engknd and tho other colonies ; but ve do
know the extent of the punishment we iBflic:t upon tt» whtch
fft ^mvtndlf dnd includes «ii the inliabitants. Among these
4P^y ar^ admitted to be innocents and several are alledged hf\
ininisters to be? in their case, even meritorious. That go^
vernment which attempts to preaenre its authority by destroys
ing the trade of its subjects, and by involinng die innocent
and guilty in au common niin» if it acts from a choice of
jtuch means» confesses itself unworthy ; if from inability to-
find any otbe;-, admits itself wholly incompetent to the end
of its institution.
2dly, Because the English merchants are punished without
any guilt, real or pretended, 6n their part. The people of.
the proscribed provinces, though failing in their duty to go«^
Ternment, ought to be permitted to discharge their obltga*^
gations to commerce ; without their fishery this is impossible.
The merchants of England entertain no fears for their
debts, except from the steps which are said to be taken in
Iheir favour. Eight hundred thousand pounds of Fnglifh
property, belonging to London alone, is not to be trifled with^
or sacrificed to the projects of those who have constantly fail-
ed in every expectation which they have held out to the
public; and who are become more bigotted to methods of
violence, fn proportion to^ the experience of their xnefficacy^
and the mischievous consequences which attend them.
^dly, Because the people of New England, besides the
natural claim of mankind to the gifts of Providence on their
own coast, are especially entitled to the fishery by their
charters, which have never been declared forfeited. These
charters^ we tliink, (notwithstanding the contempt with
which the idea of public faith hath been treated) to be of
material consideration- The bill therefore not growing out
of any judicial process, seems equally a violation of all na-
tural and all civil right.
4thly, Because we conceive, that the attempt which has^
been made to bribe the. nation into an acquiescence in this
arbitrary act, by holding out to them (by evidence at the bar)
the spoils of the New-England fishery, worth upwards of
309,0001. a year, to be a scheme full of weakness and inde-
cency f of indecency, because it may be suspected that the
desire of the confiscation has created the guilt ^ weak, be-»
cause it supposes that whatever is taken from the colonies »
of coutStC to be transferred to ourselves. We may trample oik
the ruks of justice, but we cannot alter the nature of things^
We cannot convey to Great Britain the advantages of $itua«f
A. 1775. DEBATES.- k>i
tion, which New England possesses for the. fishery. If the
value of the commodity should be enhanced at the foreigA
markets by the exclusion of so large a part of the supply^,
it may either greatly injure the sale of the commodity itself,
or put the consumers on new articles of consumption, or
new methods of supply, to the just ruin of those, who, de-
luded by avarice, have chosen from the vain hope of an en*
hanced market, to disturb the natural, settled, and beneficial
course of traffic- - '
5thly, Because we do not apprehend, that the topic so
much insisted upon by a Lord high in office, in favour of
this project, namely, the cwwarSce of his Majesty's American
subjects, to have any weight in itself, or be at all agreeable
to the dignity of sentiment which ought to characterise this
^ House. We do not think it true that any port of the sub*
jects oi this empire are defective in bravery. It is to the last
xlegree improper to act upon such a supposition, as it must
higlily disgrace our , arms in case of misfortune, and must
take away" all honour from them in case of .success. No-
thing can tend more effectually to defeat the purposes of all
our coercive measures, than to let the people, against whom
they are. intended, know, that we think our authority founded
in their baseness j that their resistance will give them some
credit, even in our own ejres, and that we attribute their
obedience only to their want of courage. , This is to call for
resistance, and to provoke rebellion by the most powerful of
all motives which can act upon men of any degree of spirit
and sensibility.
6thly, Because the interdict from fishing and commerce is
not to be terminated by any certain and definitive act to be
done by the party interdicted, but its duration depends solely
on the will of the governors and majority of the council in
some of the provinces \ upon their more arbitrary opinion of
the state of the commerce. In two of the proscribed pro*
vinces the interdict is made to depend on the same arbitrary
will, in much worse hands, those of mere Custom-house
officers ; a power of such magnitude is not fit to be dele-
gated to any man, however wise, or however exalted.
But to deliver over several hundred thousands of our fel-
low creatures to be starved, at the mere pleasure of persons
in subordinate situations, and some of them in an office air
ways more or less suspicious and obnoxious, and necessary to
be watched and guarded, rather than vested with absolute
power over all, and this without any rule to guide their
discretion, without any penalty to deter from an abuse of it,
H 3 ' .U
I02 PARLIAMENTARY' A. 177?.
is a strain of such tyranny, oppression, and absurdity, as
we believe never was deliberately entertained by any grave
assembly.
Lastly^ Because the bill, though in appearance a measure
of retaliation, only upon a supposition that the colonies have
been the first aggressors, by their association not to import
goods from Great Britain, yet is, in truth, a. most cruel en-
forcement of former oppressions j and that association is no
more than a natural consequence of antecedent and repeated
injuries. And since the restraint of this bill is not to be
taken oflF, till the several colonies shall agree to receive again
all goods whatsoever from Great Britain, and to pay all the
duties imposed by Parliament, not excepting those upon tea ;
and since three of them must apply through the medium of
the New council of Massachuset*s Bay, ^nd the last men- •
tioned province is obliged not bnly to acknowledge the new^
charter, but submit, in all respects, to the severe conditions of
the Port Bill, before they can be released from their hardships ;
since these are the terrrfs, and the only terms, upon which
this proscription is to cease, and the colonies must therefore
submit to be the slaves, instead of the subjects, of Great
Britain •, this bill, in its principle, is both arbitrary and un-
just. And as we do not conceive any ground of expecta-
tion that the provinces will yield to such hard conditions^ a
civil war, which may probably end in the total separation of
the colonies from the mother-country, will too naturally be
the consequence of this bill, in respect of which, as well as for
the other hereby assigned, we do most solemnly and heartily
protest against the sama reasons,
Abingdon, Devonshire,
Stanhope, Camden,
Richmond, > Cholmondeley,
Rockingham, Abergavenny,
Ponsonby, Wycombe,
Manchester, Torrington,
Craven, Effingham,
Leinster, Fitzwilliam,
{_By the amendment m.ide in the bill this day^ the title and the
body of the bill did not correspond ; and the Commons rejected
the amendment when sent to them, A conference ivas desired
with the Commons to remove this difficulty, '\
March 27.
A conference with the Commons. The following mem-
bers of the House of Commons, as managers for said House,
took their seats at the conference table, in the painted cham-
ber '*
A. 1775- D E B A T E S. 103
ber: Lord North, Mr. Solicitor-Cieneral, Mr. Comwally
Mr. Rice, Mr. Grey Cpoper, Mr. Hans Stanley, Mr. Jen*
k^nsbh) Mr. Cornwall, Mr. Rigby, Mr. Townshend, and
Mr. Bamber Gascoyne. A message was immediately sent
to tlifc Lords, informing them that the Cotnmons were wait-
ing. In about five minutlss the following Lords appeared as
managers for the House 6f* Lords : The Lord President, [Earl
Gower] the Lords Aberdeen, Dalhousie, Abercom, Rose-
berry, Delawar, Townshend, Irby, Despencer, and the Bi-
shops of London, Carlisle, Norwich, Worcester, Bristol,
and Oxford.
• As soon as their Lordships were seated, and covered, the
Commons stood up uncovered, and Lord North acquainted
them, that the Commons had sent their managers to offer
reasons why they had disagreed with the amendment made
by their Lordships to the Massachusets Bay fishery bill.
His Lordship then recited the title of the bill at large,
and informed them, that they had disagreed with their i.ord-
ships' amendment.
Lord North then proceeded to acquaint their Lordships,
that the reasons why the Commons could not agree to die
amendment were, that the commanders of his Majesty's ships
of war, should the bill pass with the amendment, would hp
greatly embarrassed, and not know in what manner to act
with ease and security to themselves.
The usual forms being complied with, the conference
broke up, and each set of managers returned to their re^
spective Houses.
The Lords having taken the reasons offered by the Com-
mons at the conference into consideration, their Lordships
agreed with the Commons in rejecting t]ie amendment, and
orders were given to acquaint the Commons therewith.
j4pri/ 12.
The Earl of Rochford presented a message from his Ma-
jesty, the purport of which was, for settling Buckingham-
house on her Majesty, in lieu of Somerset-house, which is
to be disposed of for other purposes.
An address was immediately moved for, to thank his Ma-
jesty for his most gracious message, and to assure his Mat-
jesty that the House would most readily concur in every
measure that might promote what was recommended by the
message.
• A motion was made by the Earl of Sandivichj that the com-
mittee t6 whom the Braunston inclosure bill was referred,
should meet again ^fter the recess at Easter, and report tp the
II 4 Hqus^
I04 PARtlAMENTARY A. 1775.
Houye thdir reasons for rejecting the said bill ; this motioA
brought on a debate.
In order to understand the grounds of this debsitei md e^
plain how this matter, which was originally of a privftt
nature, solely dependmg on local circumstaAce^fCaxne to b^
a subject of pubUe consideratiorii it is necessary to mention,
that the common fields and commonable lands- in the^KurisH
of Braunston being proposed to be inclosed, consist of forty*
one yard-lands, of thirty-five coinputed, or fifty statute acxtf
^ch, besides the waste-, the proprietors of twenty-«eycn andi
a half of those petitioned the House of Commons fbf the
bill, and the proprietors of eleven ajid a half petitione4
against it, in which la$t number the Lord of the Manor,
who had a property in the waste, heriots, &c. and the Rector^
were included. The matter was for a long time warmly
contested in a committee above stairs ; and being at length
reported, counsel were heard against the bill, and it was
read a second time, and committed. Though there is no
standing order of the House, which ascertains the exact
proportion of property necessary to carry an inclosing bill
through, yet it is generally understood, that the petitioners
for any bill of this nature should amount to four-^fifths in
value and number. But the friends of the Braunston bill
were driven to extraordinary arguments to shew, that only
three fourth of the proprietors were for the bill. The Lord's
manorial rights they accounted as nothing, though his pro-
perty in the soil of the waste was equal to at least one yard-
land; the proprietors of the two yard-lands, who did not sign,
they appropriated on the well known adage, that silence gives
consent. The Rector's interest, who was entitled to two
yard-lands, shared the same fate ; because the patrons, the
fellows of St. John's college, Oxford, had consented on a
former occasion, but now refused to confirm or repeat it;
and the most curious reason of all was, the interest of the
Rector, who, in the allotment, was to have six yard-lands
in lieu of tythes, but who adhering to his word, as it was
termed, refused his consent, because he promised, on his
first induction into the living, that he would never agree to
an inclosing bill.
The state of the matter was shortly this : that the Rector
having a freehold or interest for life in the tythes before in-
closmg, or in the land allotted to him as a compensation for
those tythes, that in either event he should have been conr
sidered, in every idea of law, equity, or commonrsense, a
proprietor to the reputed value of the tythes, or the.specir
fie
A. I775, . D ^E B A T E &^ 105
£c. equivalent held out, in lieu of them. This being; the
case, the value of the property would stand thus : take six
yardJands/ which was :the value tk$ tythes were estimated
atrfirom the 29^ yard-lands, it would be found then that the
eonsenters possessed a property in the l^ids in question equal
to 23 i, out of 4 1 parts, ahd the dissenters 1 7^.
. The bill being read a second time in the House c^ Lords, wat
*ent to ji committee, where it was postponed for two numths^
fay a majority of one, and here, though thus disposed of, it
first became a matter of public consideration.
The Earl of Sandwich condemned the conduct of the
committee, in thus assuming th^. legislative power vested in
jthe whole Hou^. He said they had no such power j that
they should have reported the special circumstances as thej
^appeared before them; that however, he did not mean to
give the House trouble, merely on a matter of order, but
was ready to meet the committee Lords on the fair merits:
He observed, that he had been always taught to consider the
legislature as composed of three estates, King, Lords, and
Commons $ but by this new mode of proceeding another
branch was created, totally unknown to the constitution;
and if people might judge by this first act, it might be well
presumed, that it would be exercised in a most arbitrary and
oppressive manner. He concluded, by moving, that the
comn^ittee should be ordered to report , the first day of the
pieeting of the House after the adjournment.
The Bishop of Peterborough replied, that he was on the
.committee, and that counsel had been heard for and against
the bill, and their Lordships had, after tlie most mature con-
sideration and close attention to the subject, and enquiry into
the merits, not rejected the bill, but .postponed it for two
months. He said, that the present motion was evidently cal-
culated to censure the committee ; thr.t he should look on it
as such ; but he was sure, that whatever might be the event
of the motion, or revision of the report, the committee had
complied strictly with the usage in such cases, .which, if any
doubt remained, might be easily proved by almost daily exr»
perience.
The Earl oi Abercom got up to exculpate himself from the
implied censure of the noble Earl who made the motion.
He said, it had been the constant custom, as long as he wasr
.acquainted with the House, not only to postpone, but reject^
when they ^aw just reason ; and that for his own part, if he
. was in an error, he must attribute it to the noble Earl, for it
was he who advised hiiq to adopt the mode which he now so
loudly condemned.
ic6 PARLIAMENTARY A. tyy;.
The Earl of Sandwich in reply, confessed the jcharge the
noble Earl had made, and avowed his motives for so doing
were to mislead, in order that the whole proceedings might
SLg^in come under the cognizance of the House. This con-
cession created a loud laugh throughout the House,
The Earl of Radnor contended, that the power assumed
by the committee was unparliamentary and imconstitutional ;
that he had been a member of the other House during two ses-
sions, and though such a power was sometimes exercised by its
committees, upon a motion made, the House, in several in-
stances which came to his own knowledge, had obliged the
•committee to report.
Lord Viscount Dudley ^ from long experience, confirmed
the fact asserted by the noble Earl who spoke before him;
and observed, that if the usage now contended for was to
•"obtain in the manner it was agreed, it would be neither more
nor less than divesting the House of its legislative power and
authority.
Lord Cathcart defended the committee on precedent and
nsage ; and said, it was ^ most extraordinary procedure to
• ;ce!hsure their conduct for doing no more than what was done
^for a series of years in both Houses, and particularly by the
committees appointed by that House.
Lord Lyttleton expressed his indignation on the conduft of
the committee, in harsh terms. He said, the most notorious
acts of injustice and oppression ever committed, had been
justified on the same ground ; and said, he did not know one
act, howsoever atrocious, that might not be defended by
precedent. He observed, that what was done in the other
House was no rule nor regulation for their Lordships con-
duct, no more than the power assumed in the present in-
stance by the committee; the question being, whether the ,
xrommittees appointed by this House, who were on such oc-
casions no more than its servants, should arrogate to them-
selves a power of superseding and controuling the House
* itself, in matters where they were merely delegated to en-
-quire into facts, and report their opinions on those fafts.
The Lord Camden expressed his disapprobation of the con-
duct of the committee, in the most warm and forcible
terms. He affirmed, that since he first had the honour to
have a seat in that House, an instance of a similaf nature
*nevef came within his knowledge. It was a downright vio-
lation of the rights of the House, in the first instance ; and,
if submitted to, would 5an6lify an usurpation, hitherto un-
•kn<3wn in the annals of Parliament. But, says his Lord-
^^^^Pj g^yc me leave to correft myself v it is not a fair, open
A. 1775- DEBATES. 107
attack on the legislative power of this House ; it is woiM
iniinitely ; because a direct attempt of such ^ nature wouht
be scouted in the first instance^ but it is an attempt to divest
this House of its legislative power, as one of .the three
estates of the realm, by a side wind, as deep laid as it wouli
be fatal in its consequences, were it silently acquiesced iiC
A great deal has been urged in support and justification of the
committee, on the ground of precedent; and the mode dt
proceeding adopted by the other House has- been much f&i
lied on, and earnestly pressed on the' present occasion; but
what does all this amount to, but that this House hal,'
through inattention, neglect, or some other reason, which is
not at all necessary to enquire into, suffered their commit*
tees to exercise a power to which they were by no metoft
competent, and thep defend one usurpation by quoting aii6«
ther ? Yet, how does the matter come out in point of fiiict^
as to the usage of the other House ? Why, that commit*
tees on private bills do sometimes take upon themselves to
decide on their propriety or impropriety. But is it not
well. known, is it not matter of public notoriety, that the
Speaker has a right, if he chuses to exert it,* to oblige the
committee to report to the House the facts stated in the course
of the evidence laid before them ; And that he has exercised
this right in the very instance now under your Lordships
consideration, is certain ; otherwise we should not be debat-
ing the present question; for their committee, as well as
ours, took upon them to decide what could only be properly
determined in the House. I trust, however, we shall ^o^ on
the present occasion, what that House, in vindication of its
own rights, very properly did, and compel the committee to
report.
The Earl of Fauconberg seemed hurt at the severe censure pas-
sed by the two last noble Lords, who spoke on the conduct of
the committee. He disclaimed for himself, and believed he
could answer for all the rest, who acted on that occa^on,
any intention whatever to invade the legislative rights and -
privileges of the House. They proceeded by usage, and de-
termined by the merits; and he was sorry to observe, that
the main scope of the arguments urged on the other side,
went generally to impute the motives of their conduct to
some private, personal, or sinister consideration ; but allow-
ing the latter supposition to be just, which he could not bring
himself to believe any person in that House would be so un-
charitable as to do, the main objection to the proceedings
of the committee must instantly fall to the ground ; for then
it would come out, that they had proceeded aad acted^ <mi
nA PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
ptrtial ahd reprehensible motives, but not with any view
^ intention of divesting the House of its inherent rights ;
l^e^idesy says his Lordship, I cannot believe that $uch a charge
tttnid be seriously urged, . without those who have made it
IliU still strengthen it by a more absurd supposition, that the
Qdtde Lords who served on that committee, claim an exclu-
^te privilege of serving on every other committee ; and by
Waking themselves a permanent fixed body, mean, as such^ to
inirade or usurp the inherent rights of this House.
The Lord Cattuien assured the noble Earl who spoke last,
that he had not the most distant intention of passing thie
Itast degree of personal censure on any of the noble Lords
who served on that committee ; that he was perfectly satis-
fied and convinced they had aAed agreeably to their consci-
ences, and stri<Sly conformable to the rules of the most per-
^£& probity and strift integrity; that his Lordship totally
mistook, him, if he interpreted any warm expression which
might have fallen from him as conveying any particular or
personal allusion ; that he supposed their Lordships had been
mifled by what had been done in similar instances on fonner
O^Ccasions 5 and, that he presumed, when they perceived the
. fcror J;hey liad been inadvertently led into, none would be
tnoare w^ing, on reconsideration, to correct it.
.. The Lord Viscount Weymouth observed, that whatever
colouring migl^t bp put on the present motion, and the rea-
sons adduced in its support, it carried on the face of it an
implied censure on the conduit of the committee 5 that the
argument speciously laid hold of was the preservation of the
legislative right of the House, to reserve to itself the power
of assent or rejeftion *, whereas the real motives which gave
birth to the present censure were the merits, not the orders
or forms of the House. For my. part, says his Lordship, I
am well informed, and clearly of opinion, that the merits
^re against the bill, not with it ; and were it even otherwise,
I think we should J)e very cautious in our enquiries into
those merits, and very slow in coming to any resolution
which might, in the most distant manner, seem to censure or
afreet a committee who have confessedly complied with the
established forms of the House, and who could not be suppos-
ed to be at all influenced by any other consideration but what
was purely dictated by conscience, and an earnest desire of
doing justice to the parties before them. Besides, allowing
they had been wrong, I repeat again, that the forms of the
Hpuse are not invaded, because it is no more than a conpr-
imjftjon or rej^etiiion of an usage exejpised before in a thou,-
sand *jDsunces, The noble Lord wl\o m^de \.he motion
A. 177J. DEBATES- top
, seems anxious for the {N*eservation of the legislative rights ^
the House; I commend his zeal, but, in my opinion, the'
point, if that be the only one he wishes to gain, will be obf-
tained as ^ectually, and much more consistently with the dig*^
siity of this House, and the respect due to the committee, cot
some future occasion, standing singly on the independent
ground of rectifying an abuse which, through inattention,
has crept into our form of proceeding, than by involving
the noble Lords in an impUed censure, in order to bring thai
bill again before the House, on pretended merits, which, I
am clearly convinced, are against it.
The Earl of Sandwich offered to join the issue with the last
noble Lord on the merits. On being called to order,— ^e [in-
sisted he was strictly within order; that he was well apprised
the merits were not before the House, only the smgk ques-
tion of revision, but still in point of argimient, as respecting
the noble Lord who mentioned them, he was at liberty ta
speak to them, and combat his Lordship's prepossessions on
that head; that out of 4L yard-lands, within the parish, 29
petitioned for the bill, and nine or ten, at most, were 0&I7
against it; that bills of inclosure, *thus supported, uniformly
received the sanction of the House; that ix ever an inclosiiiff
bill deserved the support of the House, the present did; and
that he had no positive reason for wishing to trouble the House
cm the subject, as he knew not one of the parties on either
side, but he had very powerful negative motives operating oa
his mind, which he understood prevailed on this as well as
many other occasions, namely, the want of the rector's con-
sent, which he should, as long as he had a seat in that House,
most strenuously oppose, as he thought it behoved the House
to do every thing in their power to discourage the idea, that
it should be at the option of a rector to controul a;nd conv-
mand the whole landed property of a parish merely at his wiU
and pleasiu-e.
The Earl of Sandwich's motion was put, and carried by a
majority of 40 to 24, and the committee was ordered to re-
port the whole of their proceedings the first day after the re»
cess.
April 26.
The committee on the Braunston , inclosing bill rq>orted
the same .without any amendment; but the order of refe-
rence only directing them to report a general state of their
proceedings previous to^ that order, a debate arose on the in-
fbrmality of going out of the order of reference, contrary to
the s^nse of the Hous^ which continued till half after four
o'clockv
no PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
6*clock, when a sort of compromise took place between the
parties^ and amotion was made, that the committee do draw
up a state of their whole proceedings previous to the 12th of
•^ April, (the date of the order of reference) with an account
of the -motion of adjournment, and report the same to the
House.
May 2.
The Earl of Sandnvich moved, that the committee on the
Braunston inclosing bill might be directed to report their ori-
•giii'al proceedings to the House, which being complied with^
his Lordship entered into a short view of the question. He
observed, that the lands proposed to be inclosed, being divided
•into 41 parts or yard-lands, those who possess 27 parts were
ibp the bill, and only ten and a half against it 5 that the r^
tt»ining two parts and a fraction were in the possession of
those^ who were well eilough contented with the inclosure, but
did not sign, chusing to avoid giving offence 5 that upon this
itateof the matter, which could not be fairly controverted, it
appeared, that three-fourths of the proprietors of lands within
the parish were for the proposed inclosure, which was a suffi-
cient majority to justify the passing of the bill, and much
[greater than had been known to succeed in many instances.
■For these reasons, therefore, he said he had a motion to pro-
pose, founded on the subject matter of the report, which
would defeat its effect, and at the same time bring the real
merits of the bill, in as expeditious a manner as possible, un-
der the consideration of the House. His Lordship's motion
recited the proceedings of the committee, their putting off
the bill for two months, and that it be recommitted, and that
the committee be directed to report the facts as they should
appear to them.
The Lord Sandys observed, that the motion was irregular;
that the House were now in possession of the report; and were
competent to agree with what part they pleased, and reject the
rest.
'The Earl of Sandwich replied, that no part of the origi-
nal report could be properly received or proceeded upon, as
the committee, by putting off the bill, had exceeded the
powers delegated to them, and had actually invaded the le-
gislative rights of the Housa ; that the House, by entertain-
ing the bill in the first instance, and after a second reading,
having sent it to a committee, had approved of the principle,
and were bound to discuss the merits on the report or third
reading, which could never be the case on the one now
# made.
A. 1775- D E B A T E 1 • iii
made, as the committee had precluded the House from taking
cognizance of the merits by irregularly proceeding to decide
on them out of the House.
. The Earl of Ahercorn said, that however strenuous the noble
Earl might be to ce^sure the proceedings of the committee,
he could fairly answer for himself, that he was influenced oy
no motives, whatever, but doing justice to the parties. That
the noble Earl had relied much on the state of property pos-
sessed by the friends of the bill, and had drawn conclusions
very favourably to the cause he espoused; but, he begged
.leave to differ from his Lordship, as much on his conclusions
as his facts; and when the latter were properly ascertained to
the -satisfaction of the House, he believed his Lordship would
not be able to produce one instance where an inclosing bill
was passed against the consent of so many proprietors, both
in number and value.
The Earl of Sandnvich cited several instances, in which
bills, had been passed when no more than two-thirds had
consented; and mentioned one in the year 1771 in particu^
lar, when a bill was passed, though the value possessed by
the pi'oprietors for the bill exceeded little more than one-?
half.
The Earl of Ahercorn allowed the facts as stated by the
noble Earl; but contended, that although that was the
seeming state of the property, if those instances now quoted
by the^ noble Earl were minutely enquired into, it would be
found that a great majority were for those respective bills,
though they refused to sign the petitions, on purpose to
avoid contributing to the expenceithis being well known
to be a constant practice when there was no strong oppo-
sition expected.
Lord* Viscount Wevrmuth contended, that the point of or-
der and the merits or the bill were both equally against the
noble Earl who made the motion;, that he should therefore^
move the House to agree with the committee on the report^
if there had not been a question before their Lordships
which must be first disposed of; that however, when that
question was put and lost, as he trusted it would, the mo-
tion for agreeing to the report from their Lordships com-^
mittee would come as a matter of course. He said, the
noble Earl [Earl of Sandwich] had exerted himself greatly to
prove that three-fourths of the proprietors were for the en-
closure, but had totally failed in his proofs, for at most the
consenters were but 27 out of 41, the rest refusing, to sign
might be fairly deemed disi^enters; besides, the very valii-
112 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775-
able interest of the Lord of the manor and the rector, whea
jMX^perlf and fairly estimated^ would bring the consents and
dissents nearly upon an equality. The sooner, therefere, thp
noUe Lord's question was disposed of the better, as he would
be then at fiill liberty to introduce his, of agreeing with the
report now on the table.
The Earl of Sandnvich answered, that the noble Lord hadf
he presumed, forgot, that the Lord of the Manor had little
or no property in the parish; and as to the claim of the reo*
tor, that being the very strong part of the cause he espoused,
he was ready to enter into the merits, as soon as possiblCf in
order to get at that particular part of the main question ; be^
sides, a right reverend prelate (the Bishop of Pet^borough)
now absent, had assured him, that the equivalent provided for
the rector was ample, and every way satisfactory.
Lord Viscount Dudley said, it would be impossible, con»
&tent with the forms ot the House, to agree with the report
in its present shape. He therefore recommended, as a middle
way, to have the first motion withdrawn, which being ac-
quiesced in by the noble mover, his Lordship then moved
simply, that the bill be recommitted.
The House divided. Contents, 28; non-contents, 23.
And next day the report was received.
May 3.
A bill from the Commons to establish a play-house at Man*
Chester, was read the first time. The Earl oi Radnor entered
the following protest against it.
Dissentient, ** For the reasons entered in the journals the
26th* of February, 1771, which, I conceive, at least, operate
with equal force against establishing a theatre in the town of
Manchester; and because no argument, or local consideration^
can, in my judgment, justify even the partial repeal of a law
so well calculated to restrain dissipation and hcentiousnesSf
and to promote the cause of industry, morality, and rdigicmj
as every such repeal directly tends to the increase of those very
evils, which, in the late address of the convocation to hu .
Majesty, the prelates (who now with such consistency couo-»
tenance this bill) ^ observe with infinite concern, do at this
time present a very gloomy prospect to every serious and coor
siderate minJ.'.
RADNOR."
May 4.
The order of the day for the second reading of the bill for
erecting a house of industry, and for the employment of the
poor
A. 1775- D E B A T E S. 113
poor within the hundreds of MItford and Launditch, in the
county of Norfolk. And counsel having been heard for and
against the bill, the Earl of Burkinghamshire moved, that the
bill be committed. His Lordship entered into a general .
view of the poor laws, made several remarks on the great
abuses which have prevailed in the execution of them, and
applied his whole reasoning particularly to the shamefiil and
neglefted state of those parishes and hundreds meant to be in*
corporatcd.
The Lord WaJpole owned the general principles laid
down, but denied the propriety* of the application. His
Lordship contended, the present bill could be countenanced
but on two grounds \ cither for the better ' support and em-
ployment ol the poor, or for the relief of the land-owners;
and occupiers, by lowering" of the ratC5. The first of those ;
includes the case, happiness and content of the persons main-
tained and employed 5 the other, the approbation and relief
of those who are to pay for their maintenance ; neither of.
which can be so much as pretended in the present instance ;
for neither imy noble relation near me [l-iord TownshendJ
who so warmly patronizes the bill, nor any other noble Lord
in this House, can insist, that the poor in general are not '
strongly averse to the bill, and that a great majority of the
land occupiers, who arc to pay the rates, and an equality of
the proprietors, who may be supposed to be affected in a se-.
condary degree by those rates, have, not done every thing in.
their power to oppose it.
The Duke of Manchester observed, that great stress had
been laid by the counsel who argued agi^inst the propriety of
the bill's being sent to a committee, on the clause which
makes it a capital felony to pull down, deface, or destroy any
of the fehces or inclosures to be raised about the house or
fields meant to be ere<Sted or inclosed ; and had ludicrously
supposed th^ case of a person pulling a hedge-stake, breaking-
a pale, ox committing any such trifling trespass, as coming
within the penal view or provision of that clause ; but for
his part, however he might admire the ingenuity of the
learned gentleman, he could not possibly see the necessity of
inserting the word maliciously, according to his ideas ; h^i^
cause, in the construction of all penal statutes, he had
always understood, that it was the intention, not the adt,
or, more properly speaking, the intention and the aft coupled
together, that constituted the offence. His Grace was there*
fore for permitting the clause to stand in its present form, as
a prevention of any general or particular intention to destroy,
Vol. IL I • soonet
114 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
sooner thin have it altered, upon such slight, remote, and
visionary grounds.
The Lord Lyttleton approved of the principks of the bill }
and 3aid, he should vote for it. The objection made at the
bar, that the poor would be confined, and that confinement
vras a real hardship, and contrary to the spirit of our laws,
his Lordship contended, was a mistake ; for the present bill,
though it might differ as to the mode qf restraint, gave no
new substantial power, but what might be legally exercised
under the statute of the 43d of Elizabeth. The other ob-
jection, that confinement was repugnant to the spirit of our
laws and constitution, was an assertion in hisi opinion equally
erroneous ; for his Lordship could never believe that a qua-
lified, optional restraint, designed manifestly for the benefit
add relief of the person alone who was to be bound by it,
could be deemed a hardship or punishment, particularly when
such restraint grew out of the very aft itself, which was to
constitute the relief ; for the nature of manl:ind is such, that
you cannot relieve without the power of restraining, therefore
you must have the power of doing both or neither. His
Lordship then launched into great encomiums on the act of
the 43d of Elizabeth 5 and enumerated the various and im-
portant benefits derived from it -, lamenting at the same tiimc
the shameful negleft and abuses which had since been intro-s
duced into the framing and executing the poor-laws. , He
dwelt with great energy on the vast sums daily wasted m end-
less litigation, relative to the bw of settlements ; and the
corruption, cruelty, and interested conduft of parish ofiicers.
There is, says his Lordship, above three millions of money
annually raised in this country, for the support and relief of
the poor ; and I solemnly believe, that of the vast sums of
money thrown away in suits relative to parish settlements,
aiid squandered by the churchwardens and overseers in their
feasts and revellings, &c. with several other species of mis-
application and fraud, not a million and a half is applied to
the real purposes for which it is granted ; but thopgh I highly
approve of the principle of the bill, I beg leave to differ irom
the noble Duke, that the clause does as well without the
word malicious. I think a provision which enafts arid sub^:
mits the offender to so heavy a punishment, the highest
known in our law, should be as clear and definite as possible ;
and though we may well pre3ume it will never be rigorously
executed, so as to obtain a bad purpose, I must confess I
would be much better pleased that the clause had been penned
^Ith the clearness and precision so necessary to the true firam-
• \\\^
A. 1775. DEBATES. 1x5
ing of all penal statutes. > Neither do I entirely approve of
the mode of confinement proppsed by the bill, though, as]
said before, I believe confinement, or a certain qualified
degree of restraint, to be necessary. But take the bill on the
whole, as I presume no alteration can, consistent with the
claims of the other House, be now made, as it is a money
bill, and approving of the principle of th? bill, as I do, in
the light at least of a local improvement of the poor laws,
as they now stand, I shall give my hearty assent for sending
it to a conmiittce.
The Earl of Hillsborough informed the House, that he had
made the poor Jaws his particular study, and had many years
since framed a general bill for their amendment and improve-
ment \ but after he had made a considerable progress, and
the bill having met with strong opposition, the able man who
at that time pr^ided at the head of public affairs (Mr. Pelham)
fearing it might produce similar clamours to that raised against
the Jew-bill then recently repealed, advised his Lordship to
drop it, as he could not with prudence promise it his coun*-
tenance or support. His Lordship observed, that since that
time he had remembered several bills relative to the poor laws,
brought into Parliament. Some directed to remove some
partial evil, others for the purpose of local benefit, or con-
venience ; none of them, he feared, answering the ends pro-
posed 5 for, in his opinion, the evils, whether partial or ge-
neral, have been for many years in a state of progressional
encrease. However, in all remedies of a local nature, two
invariable rules had been constantly adhei'ed to ; one was,
that the mode of relief or improvement was well direfted,
and would probably have the desired effect 5 the other, that
the matter being of a priviite and personal nature (the case
being quite otherwise where the whole community is con-
cerned) the persons immediately interested in the event alone
are to be consulted. Now, how does the present bill come
supported by those inseparable marks, and inherent qualities ?
Why, in the first place, guardians are to be appointed, who, it
is presumed, being gentlemen of probity, humanity, and in-
dependent fortunes, will execute the trust reposed in them by
this bill, with honour and fidelity. I allow the priiiciple as
a mere speculative proposition, to be an extremely just one %
but I contend, it will be found the direct contrary in practice.
I kt^ow too much of the world to believe otherwise. It is well
known, that nothing of this kind was ever taken up, upon
pureF OP more exalt^ ideas of huinanitv and generosity, than
the appomtment pf the leiect vestry of 5t. George's, Jl^noverr^
I % vsjaax^.
ii6 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
square. It is equally notorious, that no trust or paridi re-
gulation was ever more faithfully and honourably executed
for a time 5 but what is the case now ? . Why, that myself
{md several others, at first equally sanguine, have neglected
^hat from our situation and general pursuits we have found
we co61d not possibly attend to ; and the parish of Hanover*
square will in a few years fall under the direction, though
perhaps modified into another form, of the very same species
pf power the select vestry was instituted to prevent. What
will the case then be probably within the hundreds of Mitford
and Launditch ? That the gentlemen appointed guardians,
in execution of their present ideas, will exert themselves in
the manner we did ; and that when the fervor of reformation
juxd improvement abates, things will again flow into their
former channels, of private jobs, petty oppressions, and ail
the detail of grievances which fill up the local annak of almost '
every parish in the kingdom. For I believe no persop will
be hardy enough to assert, that in an extent of country,
which takes in 23 miles in length and 15 in breadth, the
guardians of the poor, I mean for any long continuance,
will, in the winter, through dirty roads, and short days, do
what the select vestry have failed to execute, even at their
very doors, without any personal inconvenience whatever^
As to th^ other general ground of the bill, the consultine
and taking the sense of those who are to be immediately afc
fected by it^ that, I think, is a matter of very serious con-
sideration, and ought to be very cautiously attended to.
Parliament should, on no account, on applications of local
regulation, countenance a bill of this kind, or any other of
a similar tendency, without being fully satisfied that such a
clear, decisive majority, as is usually deemed sufficient in
such cases, are for the bill. How, then, does it appear in
the instance before us ? One gentleman, examined at the
bar, says, that there is such a majority of the land-owners,
which is as flatly contradicted ; while it is confessed on all
hands, that of those who actually pay the tax, the land-i
occupiers, there is an undisputed majority against the bill, ,
The sam6 gentlemen, if I mistake not, was examined to
prove the wretched, neglected state of the poor within the
parish in which he resides. Now,* I would observe, that
this gentleman is a justice of the peace ; and I would ask
this House, if, by the natiu-e of his office, he was not com-* .
pctent to correct in the first instance, or remedy upo^^i repre-
sentation, the very evils, the averting and removal of which
sure intended by the bill he is . brought to give his tcstimon]r
' A. 1775. DEBATE S- 117
in support of. On the whole, therefore, as the House on a
former occasio^i threw out Mr. Gilbert's bill, intended to
give an optional po^nrer of incorporation to every hundred or
number of parishes in the . kingdom, as the plan, however
plausible and well intentioned, appears to me ideal and im-
practicable ; and as the dissensions are much too numerous
to warrant the legislative interference of this House, I shall
be against the bill going to a committee.
Lords Townshend and Montfort spoke in &vour of the bill*
It was committed upon a division of 58 to 3.
May 9.
Counsel heard for and against the third reading of the
Braunston inclosing bill.
The Earl of Sandwichy as soon as the counsel had finished,
movedi that the said bill be now read a third time. His
Lordship said, that the bill had been opposed on a variety of
grounds, and that great industry had been used to reprobate .
It ; but however, without wishing to combat such a croud of
objections, many of them trifling and contradictory, in de-
tail, he should crave the indulgence of the House, after
classing them under three distinct heads, to consider briefly
such as carried most weight, or were supported with the
greatest degree of plausibility- Those heads of objection,
says his Lordship, are the rights of tlie Lord of the manor,
the state of consents and dissents to the bill, both in point of
■ comparative property and number ; and which I look upon
to be the true cause of the jpresent opposition, the seeming
interests and personal disapprobation of the rector, Mr. Ed-
wards ; I therefore entreat, that the House will please to give
their attention for a few minutes, while I endeavour to shew,
that no one solid objection can be maintained upon any or
all of those grounds, taken together. Before I proceed, it
will be necessary to assure the Right Rev. Bench, for whom,
as individuals, as well as a collective body, I entertain a very
high reverence and esteem, that nothing which may fiiU
from me in the course of the following observations is. meant
to convey the least degree of censure on their conduct. As
to the claim of Sir John Wel;>b, (the lord of the manor) I
have been long conversant with inclosures, and frequently in-
terested as a party, and, till the present occasion, never
heard, that the consent or dissent of the Lord was considered,
only inproportion to the property he possessed. I am myslf
Lord of a very extensive manor in Huntingdonshire, the be-
neficial property of which is enjoyed by my noble kinsman
now in . my eye, [the Duke of filanchester] and my interest
in it is not worth five g\4&cs^ P^^ unnum^^^^s^ Y^r^txnvft.^
1 ^ \Sk
ii8 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775
in me being that of appointing a game-keeper.. Suppose^ thefts
a bill was brought in tor inclosing and dividing this lordship,
and that I shoudd take it intd my head fo oppose it ; it would
mdeed, at first, sound very well, and no doubt be a plausible
ground for opposition, that Lord Sandwich, the lord of the
manor, being highly interested in the event, was strongly
against the inclosure, but when, on enquiry, it was discovel^
ed what species of interest his Lordship had in the intended
inclosure, and that he had no real property •, would not your
Lordships laugh at Lord Sandwich for his frivolous and ill*
grounded opposition ? What is the case here ? Why, that Sir
John Webb, whose dissent is much relied on, is not possessed
of a sixtieth part of Braunston field, or little more than half
a yard-land out of forty-one. But it has been urged, with
great seeming weight, at the bar, that his other interests will
be deeply affected by the passing of the bill ; that the copy-
hold and freehold will be so blended together, that he witt
be deprived of his manorial rights and services, his heriots,
fines, &c. Now I take it, that the very reverse will be the
case ; because, tiie limits of both will be more exactly ascer-
tained, the fines will be certain, and all that collusion on one
side, and those unreasonable claims on the other, will imme-
diately cease ; because the present bill will be such a record
to which either party may have recourse, that the Lord will
know where to distrain for its heriots, &c. and the" copy*
holder be clearly protected from any claims, but those to
which he ought to submit. I d© not offer on mere specula^
tivc notions. I speak from experience, in an inclosure I was
concerned in a few years since in the first mentioned coun*^
ty, not where I was the nominal Lord of the manor, but in
which I at present enjoy an estate of loool. per a?in. I believe
i might suggest one great motive for the present Lord's grefat
seeming solicitude for his manorial rights, that is, while the
fields lie open, they will be a harbour for all kinds of game,
but as soon as they become inclosed, his fox-hunting will
shortly after be at an end.
The next point to be considered is, the state of the pro-
perty respectin'g the contents and dissents. I own I was much
surprised to hear it asserted at the bar, that the dissents bore
a proportion of 17^ to 2 3 5, when it is so evident, as not to
be even contradicted, that the latter were no more than 1 a
and a fraction, and the contents were clearly 28, allo\ving
that the person whose son signed for him, and who was pos-
sessed of a yard-land, had never given his son any authority
to do so. This, therefore, I take to be the true merits of
ihe question y etery other consideration throvJTv Vcvto swO^.
A. 1775. DEBATES: up
the oj^sitioQ^ but not to ^ve it weight, in my o^nioi^ .
being totally foreign. Now if we recollect, that nekher
House of Parliament have established the exact quantum a£
property necessary to entitle a bill of this nature to their 1^
gislative sanction; if we reflect, that nearly three-fourths of
die proprietors of lands within Braunston field are for having
it enclosed ; that several have been prevailed on, by pei:8onal
influence, to withold their consents ; and that three or four
bills warmly contested have passed this House within the last
year or two, supported by a much smaller proportion of
property ; I trust yoiur Lbrdships will, for these reasons, be .
induced to give your assent to the bill.
The last point I shall observe on is the opposition of the
Rector, which I look upon to be the most extraordinary
that every entered into the mind of man to conceive. His
income is to be considerably improved, I think nearly 190I.
per arm. but he does not chu^ it. Will any noble Lord in
this House bring himself to bdieve, that because this gen-
tleman has thought fit to oppose the inclosure, that therefore
the interests of a considerable body of men should be sacri-
ficed to his caprice ? I would wish to pass it over in silence,
but I cannot avoid remarking that this act of the Rectjor'-s
rather seems to originate from a systematic spirit of vesting
the clergy in gen*eral with a power of controuling the landed
property of the whole kingdom, and of emj^oying that
power to purposes equally injurious to that property, and di-
rected to their own particular benefit. I ^peak it with great
deference, but I repeat it again, that I shall, to the utmost
of my power, combat such an attempt, however abetted' or
supported within these walls, or elsewhere; and i trust, that
the very respectable part g£ that body, when properly ap-
prized of such an intuition, will forbear on the present, as
on all foture occasions, to give such a system either counte-
nance or support.
On the whole, the present question not being, whether in-
closing in general be founded in good policy, which I think
it is, but whether the bill before us stands unimpeached upon
any ground of argument, particular facts, specific rights, or
Want of precedent, I make no doubt but it will mept with
your Lordships hearty concurrence.
Lord Weymouth. Without entering into the detail whidhi
the noble. Earl has laboured to explain with so much inge-
nuity and ability, 1 would just meet him on the ground an
which he seems desirous to entirely rest the merits of the pre-
sent question. Th^tt is, the state of the property between
the consentcrs and dissenters. If I <;'3Ln ^tq\^ \a ^So&'ftssNiSR.^
1 4 "^^^
120 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
that his Lordship's rqiresentation is erroneous^ all his COQ^
elusions, correlative arguments, and facts, must at once come
to nothing. I would wish your Lordships to recollect the
conduct of the counsel at the bar. Mr. Wheeler, (who
was against the bill) after enumerating the state of the con-
sents and dissents, asked the counsel on the o^^her sides if he
meant to controvert that state ; and only one objection being
made, relative to Clarridgc's authorizing his 5on to sign £or
him, Mr. Wheeler brought two witnesses, who proved he
did not giv^ any such authority at the time j and that both
at the time, and since, he declared his wish, that the fields
might remain open. Now, supposing that Clarridge's yardr
land were to be deemed as included in the consents, yet the
proportion of property would remain thus, for I took it
down at the time. The proprietors of 23 yard-lards for the
bill, and 17 against it. Sure then, no noble Iiord in this
House will contend in a matter of mere private consideration,
totally unconnected with the public interest, that it vras ever
known that this House ever interfered when the properties
were so nearly equal. The noble Earl may answer, that
this is not the true state of the property possessed by the con-
tending parties ^ but I am well convinced that it is ; and
that, were any other proof wanting, the admission of the
counsel on the other side, would be suflScient evidence for the
House to proceed on •, according to this plain rule, that what-
ever is not contradicted is well presumed to be admitted.
The noble earl has taken great pains to obviate several other
objections made to the bill ; but I must beg leave to observe,
he has failed in every one instance. He says, the claim of
the Lord of the manor is only to be considered in propor-
tion to the beneficial interest he possesses. I own the truth
of the position, as a general one, though I do not unplicitly
- assent to it to the full extent he lays it down ; but in the pre^
sent instance the very argument makes against him, and it is,
. because the Lord of the manor has a beneficial interest in the
prembes, that I would give his opposition the weight and con-
sideration it is deservedly entitled to. It is because he can
neither distrain for his heriots, or recover his fines ; and that
he has not an equitable compensation for his property in the
waste, that I profess myself against the bill. If indeed, he was
such a Lord of the manor as die noble Earl so humorously
describes himself to be, I should look upon his opposition to
proceed from his desire of enjoying the pleasure of the field ;
but I can never be induced to treat the opposition on the pre-
sent occasion originating from property Ug^htly, on a bare
A. T775. DEBATES.' ^ 121
supposition that the Lord of a manor, who had no property,
might think proper to act in a similar manner. The divest-
. ing the power from the ordinary, and lodgmg it in the pa-
tron, though I presume no bad use of it will be made on the
present occasion, will, in my. opinion, be a very bad prece-
dent to establish; because it will open a door for collusive
arguments between the patron and the parishioners in some
instances, and in others, where matters may be managed
more dexterously, between the patron, parishioners, and in-
cumbent, whereby the church may be stripped of her patri-
mony, as the ordinary will be precluded from any interference
whatever. But besides the general iiiischiefs that may arise,
how does the case stand as a£Fecfing the present rector? The
Commissioners are avthorized to borrow, with the consent of
the patrons, the fellows of St. John's College, Oxford, 1500I.
to be laid out at their pleasure; and the rector is compelled, in
the first instance, to pay the interest of the whole sum, and
reduce the capital at the rate of i-3oth every year; so that, to
convenience certain landholders in this parish, and to increase
the interest of the patrons, the rector is to be saddled with a
payment of 1 25I. per annum^ out of a freehold for life, which
no man on earth, withdUt manifest injustice, can abridge or
take away. Great stress has likewise been laid on the great
inconvenience from the Oxford canal, which runs through the
field, the true state of which is this : the field contains up-
wards of two thousand acres, and the whole of what the na-
vigation has cut off is but 260 ; when it is, therefore, consi-
dered, that the cut is no more than half a mile in length, and
that within that short distance there are four bridges, I hope
no argument of necessity will weigh with your Lordships,
where there does not exist the least foundation for any. The
last circumstance I shall mention is, the allotting nine acres -
for a new road. Now, it is well known, that the great
Chester road goes through the field, but that for the con-
. venience of a neighbouring parish, there is ^ clause in the
bill, that another road, thirty yards in breadth, is^ to .be
made ; I therefore move a clause, by way of rider to" the
bill, that the said road be confined to the breadth of twenty
yards. . ,
The Archbishop of Canterbury said, he should not.^ter
into the consideration of the several arguments made use of on
eithef* side of the House, relative to the controul of thtt dio-
cesan, or the particular rights of the rector, but confine
^himself barely to the state of property for and against the
bill; and that, in Jbis opinion, being not sufficient for sup-
t22 PARLIAMENTARY A-nyj-
•porting the present bill, he should be against its passing into
a 1aw« He added, he knew notlung of the sentiments cf the
right reverend prelate [Bishop of Peterborough] in whose dio-
cese the lands in question were situated, but what he hald
learned from the noole Earl £Earl of Sandwich.]
The Earl of Fauconberg spoke warmly against the bill, and
after minutely stating the property on both sides, the nuniber
of acres, the produce in corn, and the value of it at market,
observed on the whole, that the value of thje lands meant to
. be inclosed were 1 200I. per annum^ 650I. of which only was
possessed by the friends of the bill, and the remainder by its
opponents, which was a majority that he defied the friends of
the bill io produce such another instance in the proceedings
of that House, to authorize the present to be passed into a
law. .
. The Lord Viscount 'DWA;^ alluded to the story of the oki
man, his son, and his ass; and said, it was impossible to please
everyone in matters of this kind. He had frequently expe-
rienced the same himself, particularly relative to the fete of
the Worcestershire canal, lately postponed in the other House;
where, after every material objection had been removed^ new
ones were started, and daily multiplied, which, he could iwit
hel^ observing, was the case in the present bill, where, among
many other reasons of similar nature offiared against it, the
exonerating those possessed of less than half a yard-land from
, the expence of inclosing was much insisted on, thou^ {mt»-
bably if they were not, still greater complaints would have
been raised against the injustice and oppression of oUiging
them to contribute rateably towards the expence with the
more opulent land-owners.
The question being put upon Lord Weymouth's intended
clause, the House divided; for it 30; against it 37.
The biU was committed, read a third time, and passed.
May 12.
As the following debate turned mostly on a circumstance,
not inraiediately connected with the merits of the bill, for
the better understanding of what passed on the occasion, it
will be necessary to point out that circumstance by way of .
explanation. ^The day on v/hich the bill was presented,
on k motion for reading it a first time, the Earl of Radnor
moved the rejection of it, and a short conversation ensued.
The friends of the bill, fearful of losing it in this stage,
judiciously moved the previous question, by which means
the noble liOrd was left in a minority consisting of himself.
Offended that the Bishops divided against him^ contrary, as kc
A. I775* DEBATES, 113
understood) to their previous declarations, his Xx>rdship ^n*
tcred the protest, (seepage 1 1 %) in which he contrasted jwrt of
the contents of their address to his Majesty in convocation,
tnth their conduct in reference to the bilU Lord L3rttekoa
having moved to have the bill read a second timej a deboit^
ensued.
The Bishop of Lmdm declared, he was entirely against
the bill going to a committee; that, however, he should
not have risen, were it not to exculpate himself from a charge
. made against him and the rest of his brethren, by a noble Eaii
present; that it was not a thing that fell merely in the
heat of debate, it was no loose equivocal expression whi^h
might admit of a double interpretation; the matter he advert-
ed to was on record, for if was on their Lordships journals.
He said, it was no less fallacious in point of fact, than in-
jurious to a body of men, who were certainly intitled to
justice in common with the rest of their fellow subjectr.
Ife then proceeded to inform the House, that* although he
disapproved of the bill, and was of course from the begin-
ning i'esolved to vote against it, he did not think the first read^
ing the proper stage to oppose it, as it would, in his opi-
nion, be more candid and agreeable to parliamentary usage,
to combat the bill on the second reading. He therefor^
from the known candour of the noble Earl who had entered
the protest, as well as his love of justice, expected that his
Lordship would withdraw it, or at least expunge such parts
as may be supposed to convey to posterity a most heavy accu-
sation on a body of men who were entirely innocent. As
to the question itself, whether or not permission ought to1)e
given to erect a playhouse at Manchester, he had not a smglc
doubt of the impropriety of granting such a permission, in a
great trading manufacturing town; but, he feared at the
same time, that throwing out the bill would not prevent the
evil, as what was refused by Parliament would still be sup-
ported by connivance. He said there were many plays of a
moral instructive tendency, that where those representation s
were properly conducted, they operate4 to the improvement
of manners; and if custom had not determined otherwise,
for his own part, he could with pleasure go to the theatre
to see the English Roscius; and on the whole, if a theatre
was to be permitted, or established by act of Parliament ^fer
he was afraid the evil would exist in one form, or the other}
he hoped the magistrates in all those towns, where such exhi-
bitions were permitted, would take singular care to prohibit
the representation of one prfrtioular play (the Beggar's Operw)
124 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
which, iahis opinion, tended more to corrupt themprals of
the lower orders of the people, than all the other plays extant
in the English language beside; and should the managers or
directors persist, be trusted that the magistrates would yU
gorously execute the vagrant laws aeainst such daring offen-
ders, as persons not entitled to a parish settlement,^
The Earl of Radnor. No person in this House would
be farther than I would from passing a censure upon any body
of mien, particularly the right rtverend bench, for whom I
entertain so high and singular a respect. A short history of
the transaction will however be my best apology for ray con-
duct relative to what has already happened; and for still per-
sisting in my former opinion, and refusing now to retract it.
While this bill was passing through the other House, I ap-
plied to the most' reverend prelate who sits at the head of the
Bishops bench, to the right reverend prelate who now spoke,
and to the other right reverend prelate in whose diocese
Manchester is situated. I informed them of my intention
to oppose the biil; and desired to know their sentiments.
They answered, they thought with me on the subject; and
were resolved to give it every opposition in tlieir power.
Having notice of the day the bill was to come up from the
Commons, I desired the first reading might be deferred, and
the Lords sunmioned. This being complied with, how great
was my astonishment, when I moved the rejection on the first
reading, to find the previous question put, and myself in a
minority alone; every one member of the right reverend .
bench that was present having divided against me. I do there-
fore appeal to your Lordships, if I had not reason to be of-
fended; and if any one noble Lord in this House would not
think himself ill treated, if upon any question agitated within
these walls, his friends, after assuring him of their supporti
should encourage him to divide the House, and afterwards
vote directly contrary to the previous assurances given on their
part?
The Earl of Carlisle spoke much in favour of the billj
said, that Methodism was daily gaining ground, particularly
in the manufacturing towns; and that playhouses, well re-
gulated, would be the means of dispelling those gloomy
thoughts, and that melancholy state ' of mind so favourable
to the propagation of the dangerous doctrines embraced by
those sectaries. That he would not say plays were thereiFore
at this time less witty, but they certainly were less immoral and
indecent than the productions of former periods, and conse-
qvexidy thzt a restrictive hand was less necessary than it ever
wasbeibre.
A.I77J- DEBATES. nj
Lord Lyttelton, The right reverend prelate who opened
the debate, though he professes his intention of giving a ne*
gative to the bill, has at the same time pleaded most power-
fully in, its fevour. He says, were our theatric exhibitions
properly regulated, they might serve and promote the cause of
virtue, instead of hurting it. Hd deprecates the pemiciousj
"baneful effects of one play in particular, The Beggar's Opera 5
and seems xto allow, that the representation of that play alone
is' to be dreaded. I am pleased to find, that the right reverend
pelatehas given me so fair an opportunity of satisfying him on
that head ; and informing him, that the intended manager has
given me tke fullest and most unreserved assurances, that the
play of the Beggar's Opera shall never be exhibited on his
theatre. The right reverend prelate likewise tells your Lord*
ships, that if custom and the current prevailing opinions of
mankind had not forbidden it, that he could with pleasure be
present to see the English Roscius appear in some of his capital
characters. I applaud the wish, and I am sorry to observe, that
nothing but prejudice and ignorance could lay the foundation
of a distinction, which is to preclude ?iny set of men from en-
joying the fruits of so pleasing, instructive, and solid an en-
tertainment. The right reverend prelate endeavours to make
a distinction, and draw a line between, those places where en-
tertainments pf this kind ought or ought not to be permitted 5
by which he would exclude all trading and manufacturing
towns. But here I must beg leave to dissent from him, and
to draw a 'direct contrary conclusion ; for in my opinionf
there is no place under proper regulation, in which they
should be more encouragcdj as people, who labour intensely,
require a proportionable recreation ; and the sixpence spent
^t a theatre is much better laid out than at an alehouse. It
gives me much pain, but my duty as a member of this House
will not permit me to pass over in silence a matter of no small
consequence mentioned in this day's debate ; I mean the
protest signed a few days since by the noble Earl near me,
which, give me leave to say, when properly and seriously con-
sidered, has a much more direct tendency to corrupt the
morals of the Ipwer orders of the people, than all the thea-
trical exhibitions ever represented in this country^ The right
reverend bench, who are the great protectors of the interests
of religion, the known promoters of virtue and morality in
their several dioceses, who in their own persons enforce by
example what they teach by precept ; who are the only set
of men in the christian world of the same description that
follow the rigid doctrine of prii^tive Christianity, and shew
tt6 PARLIAMENTARY A. ryyj.
'themselves the true disciples of their Saviour Jesus, (the
bishops of Spain, France, Italy, and the rest of Europe
having long since mixed in the common herd' of mankind,
Mid thrown oflf all distinctions of living and acting, which
originally connected themselves with the exercise of their
sacred functions.) This very respectable body of men, I say,
ere not only held out to the present generation, but their
names handed down to posterity, as the encouragers of vice,
immorality, and profaneness ; and still the more to aggravate
the charge, their own words, on a former occasion, are quoted
and contrasted with their recent conduct, in order to convict
them of hypocrisy, and surcharge the picture. This is the sub-
stance of the noble Earl's protest. Now, what will be the pro-
bable consequences, as operating on the people i First, to in-
crease that levelling spirit, and contempt of the high orders of
the state, which I am sorry to see is already too prevalent,
and which is known to be so destructive of all subordination,
order, and good government ; and secondly, to persuade man-
kind, that religion and morality are no morfe than empty
sounds taken up and echoed for personal, interested purposes,
when it is proved that the very protectors and guardians of
both have deserted their charge, as unworthy of their care or
attention. This, my Lords, will be the certain effect of the
noble Earl's protest in its present form ; and it is on this
ground I now presume to contend, that it is highly incumbent
on his Lordship to withdraw it, or modify it in such a man-
ner as to prevent the manifest evils it must otlierwise be pro-
ductive of. I know the noble Lord's candour ; I am satisfied '
of his love of truth and justice. His religious tenets are too
well known ; indeed, his ecclesiastical, I should say his epis-
copal character, for sanctity of life and purity of do'ctrine,
are already so notorious, that his Lordship wants no essential
quality, but a mitre and a pair of lawn sleeves to make him
a perfect bishop. I therefore entreat; that his Lordship from
- those united motives, will undeceive the public, and disabuse
posterity, by erasing the exceptionable parts of the protest, or
consent to withdraw it entirely. The explanation of the
right reverend prelate, the sentiments of the whole bench,
shew beyond question, that justice rigidly demands what is
now asked ; for, sure, the noble Lord could not wish to have
it go abroad into the world, that the right reverend bench
voted for the bill, when the fact was confessedly otherwise ;
and that the cause of virtue, morality, and religion^ should
suffer, by means of any such misrepresentation.. On the
MvAoJcj my Lordsy I appeal to the candour and justice of the
A. I77S- DEBATES. 127
noble Lord: I trust to his care of the- morals of the ipcopLc,
and his love of truth, that he will devise some method to set
this matter upon a right footing ; and I press him more ear-
nestly to the execution of this request, because, otherwise,
1 must be under the disagreeable necessity of moving to ex-
punge from your Lordships journals what truth will not per-
mit to remain there j what is in its nature so very injurious
to the personal character of so respectable a part of this House;
and finally, what may be so destructive to the morals of the
people and to the civil and religious interests of this country.
1 he Earl of Radnor. Whatever might have been the in-
tention of the right reverend prelate, and the rest of his bre-
thren present, I could not pretend to determine. I found
myself compelled to act in a manner suited to my feelings,
and to the spur of the occasion. A bill was oflFered to be
read a first time, for establishing a theatre in the town of
Manchester ; from the very minute therefore that the division
took place, and that I saw the members of the right reverend
bench support the bringing in of the bill, I was clearly
justified in making the distinction on which my protest was
grounded. The right reverend prelate justifies himself on
the usages of Parliament, and the general mode of proceed-
ing usually adopted by this House ; rhich is, to let a bill go
to a first reading, perhaps out of compliment to whatever
noble Lord may happen to bring it in. But I deny any such
usage, as a rule never to be departed from : I remember
myself many instances to the contrary, particularly one, in
which the right reverend bench itself took a very leading and
active part, relative to the dissenters. I recollect a recent in*-
stance, in the course of the present session, full in point,
when a bill was rejected on the very day it was received ;
and I look upon it to be much more parhamentary, candid,
and regular, to reject a bill, the principle of which is totally
disapproved of, in the first stage, than, by permitting it to go
to a second reading, entertain, and give a sanction to the
principle, and subject the persons applying for it to- the ex-
pences and fees of the House. How much soever the right
reverend prelate may talk of candour and parliamentary usage,
I am justified in contending, that such an indulgence is
cruelty in the extreme, and that I shall always thindk it my
duty to put a negative on a bill, in a, stage in which it is at-
tended with little or no expence, rather than vote first for
its introduction (though fully determined to oppose it) and
when it comes to be read a second time, vote for its rejection ;
>vhich to xne appears somewhat like entertaining a bill or suit
128 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
in the courts below, upon ho just ground, but with a view to
dismiss it with double costs, as frivolous and vexatious.
iiuke of Manchester. The noble Lord hear me [Lord
Lyttleton] seems to establish a proposition, which I must
confess I am far from approving. He urges the necessity of.
the noble Lord, who spoke last, permitting such alterations
in his protest- as may remove the censure it is supposed to
contain on a certain right reverend body ; and in case of re-
fiisal, says, he shall be obliged to move, th^t the objectionable
words, or passage alluded to, shall be erased. I am far from
approving of the whole of the protest : I wish sincerely it-
had not been entered, because it proceeded from mistake and-
misapprehension, no matter on which side ; but I can nevcr-^
consent to have one of the most important and useful privi-
leges of the peerage invaded, to answer any particular purpose^
hout^cver urgent. It is the inherent, indubitable right of
every noble Lord in this House, to protest either singly or in
a body ; and I take it, that this privilege admits of no spe-
cific controul. This privilege, it is true, may be abused, or
wrongly exercised; but what will be the probable conse«»
quence, should your Lordships attempt to establish a prece-
dent that would take this right of protesting away ? That a
majority at all times may not only, as usual, carry every
point they wish, but besides, prevent the minority from pro-^
testing ; for reasons would not be wanting to point out the
necessity of such a mode of proceeding. I cannot therefore
conceive, that it would be possible to devise any mode, or
form of protesting, which might not with a little ingenuity
be made to point at, and be interpreted to be injurious to
some one body of men or other. On the other hand, the
great respect I bear to the noble Earl, who drew up the
protest, and the high esteem and reverence I entertain for the
right reverend bod)^ who are immediately affected by that
performance, induce me to wish, that the noble Earl himself
would offer some amendment, or explanative addition, suited
to the actual circumstances of the case. But whether hisr
Lordship will, or will not, I can never give my consent to
have any part of the sacred records of Parliament expunged
from your Lordships journals. As to the bill itself, I own
myself a very warm advocate in its favour. I think the mo-
t, tives for condemning theatric representations, which formerly
subsisted, at present no longer exist. . The licentiousness of
the last century is wholly banished from our theatres \ and
how much soever our modem playwrights may fall short of
their predecessors m point of wit, hiunpur, and true character, •
A. 1775. li E B A t E S. "^ ii^
they at least excel them in morality. I will not even pretend,
that this turn or taste of the town originated either with au^
thors or managers; but this I wiH affirm, and do appeal to
your Lordships for the truth of what I say, that the most'
moral and sentimental pieces arc those best received; nay
more, that any glaring violation of the rules of propriety and
decorum would meet with the most marked displeasure of
the public. Besides, were there any grounds to fear that a
certain favourite piece, justly reprobated by the right reverend
prelate, as pernicious and destructive to the last degree, of
the morals of the lower ordcfrs of the people, might be exhi-
bited on the Manchester theatre, we have the most full and -
specific assurances to the contrary. On the whole, therefore^
1 do give my most hearty concurrence for the bill being sent
to a committee.
The izrl Gov)^ endeavoured to shew, that the protest was
drawn Op on ii^iCon<!eption and mistake; and therefore, as
the true sentiments of the right reverend bench were at pre-
sent fully known, he earnestly recommended to the noble
Earl, who dreW it up, to make such alterations as would cor*
f^spond with those sentiments. His Lordship observed, that
the protest had already got into the news-papefs, that, in its
present form, it conveyed the most unfavourable idea of the
whole bench of Bishops; and that, consequently, the repara-
tion which justice required, ought to be as public as the in-
jury they had sustained, which he knew no way of effecting
but by altering the protest, and explaining the true grounds of
the mistake, or misrepresentation.
The Archbishop of Cattterbttry. The right reverend prelate
T>n my right hand, has so fiilly explained what I had to
ofitr concerning the protest, that I have nothing further to
urge on that subject. This I may safely add, howeyer, that
the noble Earl who thought fit to pass so heavy a censure on
this bench, nor any other Lord in this House, could possibly
be more zealous against the- present bill than myselr. I as-
sured his Lordship, at the time, of my sentiments; and I
little imagined, that when I was complying with what I deemed
the uniform niode of proceeding established by the House, 1
was at the same time laying a foundation for a charge of t
most heavy and unprecedented nature^ in which I and the
rest of my brethren were to^be undeservedly involved. That
noble Lord's own ideas of justice will, I doubt not, betttr
suggest what may be proper to undeceive the public than any
thing I could possibly offer. A noble Lord over the way;
[Lord Lyttelton] has endeavoured to defend the bill on gene-
Vol. IL K t4
%20 P A R L I A M E N T A R Y A. 1775.
ral principles', but give me leave to say, that, in my opinion,
he has totally failed, as to the particular application of his ar-
guments, in support of establishing play-houses in great ma-
nufacturing towns. I must observe, that his reasons are both
fallacious and erroneous; for whatever may be urged for their
being established here in London, I anx perfectly convinced
that they tend to create idleness, and all the train p( evils
idleness is known to be productive of, among those who are
destined to live by labour and industry* I remember, when
I resided in the last diocese I had the care of, I went to a great
trading town [Birmingham] to attend an ordination; and
having a curiosity to inspect the manufactures carrying on by
St Mr. Taylor, upon examining tlie works, I enquired how
niany men he employed ; he answered 500. And where arc
they? is this a holiday? No, says he, but we have a play-
house here; the men were at the play last night, and it is im^
possible to get them to their busmess for two or three days
after they have been there. The noble Lord lias asserted
.another thing equally destitute of foundation or probability. He
supposes that the labouring mechanic will spend the six-pence
or shilling he was wont to throw away at the public-house, in
the more rational entertainment of a play# £1 his Lordship
serious, or would he attempt to persuade os, that the man
who used to waste his time at the ale-house will return supper-
less to bed, or not rather incur a double expence, first at the
play-house, and afterwards at a public-house? On the whokt
we do not speak from mere speculation^ experience has al--
ready proved the evil at Norwich and otlier trading towns.
I disapprove of the principle; I am convinced that in traduig
and manufacturing towns its effects are immediate and perni-
cious; I am therefore strenuously against committing the
bill.
. The Lord Viscount Dudley. I live wry near the great
manufacturing town the most reverend prebte speaks of, and
in the course of my observation and acquaintance with seve-
ral of the most eioincnt traders, could never learn that the
least inconvenience was felt by erecting a play-house in thiit
town. I knew Mr. Tayior, the person his Grace speaks of ;
and can hardlv think he could have ever amassed the very im-
mense riches he did, unless his men, as well in times of theatric
exhibitions as at other seasons, were more amenaUe to their
piaster's orders, and attended more constantly to their work*
As to the protest which has been so much the sublet of this
day's debate, I confers I do not see myself, how the expression.
of
A. 1775' DEBATES. 131
of convocation, and the conduct of the Bishops can be at all
contrasted, as they are attempted in the protest: in their ad-
dress, they shew their abhorrence of every thing that tends
to encourage immorality: and here they voted for a bill al-
lowing the exhibition of moral plays. I do not think the ob-
servation at all to the purpose. I wish the noble Earl would
consent to withdraw, or snfkr such alterations as would pre-
vent the injustice with which it is fraught, and the very dan-^
gerous impressions it may make without doors. Otherwise
I must feel myself under the same disagreeable predicament
of the noble Lord [Lord Lyttelton] who took an early part
in this debate; that of having such parts as now come fsurly
within the description of misrepresentation or mistake, totally
suppressed.
The Bishop of Bangor. I would venture to recommend a
mode, which in my apprehension would meet with the ideas
of all sides of the House. The noble Earl who framed the
protest, it is certain, mistook the intentions of this bench.
In my opinion, the best way, without doing any violence to
the rights of the peerage on one hand, or suffering misrepre-
sentation to get oiit into the world on the other, would be re-
citing the circumstances which have since bee^ explained^
added to the protest in its present form; by which means the
whole matter will be taken together, and appear in its native
genuine form, without prejudice to any party or person what-
ever; The noble Lord has admitted in debate, that we de-
clared ourselves against the bill; would it not be justice to us,
to insert the same in the record, together with what we con-
sider as aft insinuation of the contrary?.
The Lord Lytteltom The noble Earl who drew up the
protest has confirmed himself what has fallen from the right
reverend bench. His Lordship has told you, that the most
reverend prelate whx> spoke some time since, and two right
reverend prelates, assured him they were against the bill. I
do therefore think 'his Lordship bound, upon every motive
of truth and justice, to alter his protest,, by inserting that
fact, as well as such others as have since come out, that the
public may be enabled to form a true judgment of the whole
together.
The Earl of Radnor. I admit with the noble Lord near me,
[I^ord Dudley] that the intended contest between the pro-
fessions and conduct of the Bishops,' must appear ill sup-
ported, to one who considers this bill as an encouragement
to immorality; but I appeal to the Bisl.ops themselves, to
K2 the
Tf.jst P ARX I A M E N T A R V A. 177^
the arguments thcjr have this day used agafinit it, that they
consider it as I do ; axid consequently tW their conducttipon
the first reading was inconsistent with their promise to ^ne,
their professions in their address, and their arguments and
opinions you* have heard this day: after all I do assure your
ILordships that I find myself extremely embarl^SBed in what
-maimer to act. I think still, that I was strictly justified in
-^what I have done; yet the house seem to be of another opi-
iiion, to whose judgment, as far as it is consistent with my own
^personal rights, and those erf the peerage in general, I would
rvery chearfiilly submit. Thus circumstanced, therefore, I
have difficulties to encounter cm either hand ; the only mode
\pE keeping clear of . them, which presents itself at present tor
me, is to come to the question directly, and if the right revcw •
ftbid bench shotld find itself in a minority, they will have an
reppOTtvsMtj of protesting against the bill, and wiping off the
rimputatfon several of its members 5eem so sensibly to feel*, if
.not, and that the bill should happen to be thrown otit^inthat
<jevent I pledge myself to have the matter cleared up to the
satisfaction of the Houses
The tnU was committed by a majority of 33 to 25^
May t^.
r The Earl of Kadfior entered the fodlowittg protest *•
Dissentient^
Because the several reasmis already entered against passing
•bills of this nature have in this debate received additional
,weight and force, from the argimient of the prelates, and
-their unanimous votej for though by refusing, without reasort
given, to divide for the previous question, moved upon thcf
wiestion of rejection, after the first reading (which gave time
for procuring a petition in favour of the bill) they appeared
to me to countenance the bill; yet as their Lordships have
thiis day solenmiy avowed in argument, that they had no'
«uch intention, and think they unjustly suffer by the im-
:putation of it, it would be injurious to the reverend benchy
as well as to the argument, not to say I am strengthened
in my objections to the bill, by their Lordships' dtclaratiofiSf^
of their liaving been uniformly as weU as unanimously agaihsC
it.
RADNOR.
The bill passed without any funhcr opposition.
A, 1775. D E B A' T^ E TS', " 133
Mayrj.
Lord C/z/M^/i presented the fbllo^K^g petition.
To tht Right tiomurable thi' XsCrds Spirittud and Ten^oral in
• Farliametit assembled. '
The petition of hk Maje8t/& loyal and dntiful subjects <et«
tied in the province of Quebec,
Humbly shewetk,
That since the commencement of civil goremment iif
this proviifce, your Lordships' humble petilioners, under the
protection of English laws granted iss l^r his sacred Majesty's
royal proclamation, bearing date the ceventh day^ of October^
which was in the year of our Lord one thousand seven htin^
dred and sixty-three, have been encouraged to adventure
their properties in trade, estates and agriculture, to a very
considerable amount, thereby renderis^^ the province a value
;ible acquisition to Great Britain: That, to their inexpressible
grief, they find, by an act of Pariiament intitled, " An act
for making more effectual provision for the government of the
province of Quebec in North America," they are depriyed
of the habeas corpus act and trial by juries, arc subjected %o
arbitrary fines and imprisonment, and liable to be tried, both
in civil cases and matters of a criminal nature, not by known
fmd permanent 1<)^, but by ordinances and edicts ^'hi^h
the gbvernor and <:ouncil are empowered to make void ^
ihcir? will and pleasure, which must render oux persons and
properties insecwre, and has already deeply wxxundcd the cre-
dit of the coiintfy, and confined our views in trade 4:o very
narr-QW limits.
In this cruel state of apprehension and uncertainty, wc
Ijumbly implore your Lord^ips' fuyourable interposition, as
the hereditary gwi^rdii^nfi of the rights of the people, that the
Siiid act may be repealed or amended, and that your hu^nble
petition's may enjoy their constitutional: riglKS, privile^^
and franchises hereWore panted to all his Majesty's /duti&t
subject*. ^ .
And yo«r petitioners as in duty bound will eirer fray*
Quebec, 12th Nov. 1774.
Before the Clerk read the petition, Ei^r^ Gkip^ said, be
should be glad to be informed through what channel the-
petition came into the noble Lord's [Xloacd Camdon] JbtaniJs,
iis he understood that such a petition had been in .to\«n for
.Sf>me months; but not coming in n manner in which his
Majesty's ministers could take the desired notice of it, he did
tu>t see how the Houtc could entertain it^ without it came
K 3 accompanied
t34 PARLIAMENTARY A- 1775.
accompanied with the necessary forms. He heard, he said^
that a gentleman, no way connected with the province, had
such a petition in his possession; but how the House could be
satisfied, that the petition now presented was the petition of
the persons to whom it was attributed, was not in his power
to determine.
Xhe Lord Camden replied, it mattered very little how the
petition came into his hands; this, however, he would ven-
ture to assure the House, that it was genuine; and if their
Lordships conceived any suspicion tliat it was unfairly or sur-
reptitiously obtained, the agent of the colony [Mr. Masere^]
would give them the fullest satisfaction on that head.
The Clerk having read the petition, Lord Camden ac-
quainted the House, tliat the petition having been previously
ctered to every Peer in administration, had at last been deli-
vered to himself to present to that House, a task which he
had undertaken, not having those reasons that might have
influenced the Lords in office to decline it; because he had
uniformly, from principle and conviction, opposed the act
which they had planned, and by their persuasive powers car-
ried through the House.
His liordship then observed, that after the fullest examina-
tion of the act in question, he found it so thorougly impo-
litic, pernicious, and incompatible with the religion aiod con-
stitution of our country, that no amendment, nor ally thing
short of a total repeal of it, wdiild be sufficient. He remarked
on the provisions of the act as being wholly inconsistent with
the reasons recited in it; and he concluded that they wwe
not the.true reasons on which it was founded, that there must
be oth^r secret motives and designs which had produced the
measure, and which could he best discovered by attending to
the purposes the act was calculated to answer, which, from
the provisions made therein, appeared to be no other than to
prevent the farther progress of freedom and the Protestant re-
ligion in America, and to secure a popish Canadian army to
subdue and oppress the protestant British colonies (rf Atnerica.
His Lordship arranged his objections to the act un^er the three ^
following heads.
1st, The extension of the limits of Quebe^r.
adly. The establishment of popery there; and
3dly, The cfvii despotism in which the ^ihabitants of that
immensely extended province are to be perpetually bound, by
being deprived of all share in the legislative power, and sub-
jected in life, freedom and property, to the arbitrary ordinances
of
A- I77J, DEBATES. 135
of a governor and council appointed by, and dependant on,
the crown.
Under the first of these heads his Lordship proved, that
there could be no good reason for so extending the limits 4>f
Quebec, as to make them comprehend a vast extent of coun*
try, two thousand miles in length from North to South, and
bounded on the West only by the South Sea. That this
enlargement could only be intended to extend the shackles of
arbitrary power and of popery over all the future settlements,
and colonies of America. That by drawing the limits of
that province close along the interior settlements of all the
old English colonies, so as to prevent their further progress,
an eternal barrier was intended to be placed, like the Chinese
wall, against the further extension of civil liberty and the
Protestant religion. His Lordship then animadverted parti-
cularly on the instructions lately transmitted to General
Carleton, whereby the regulation of all the Indian trade of
North America is put into the hands of the governor and
council of Quebec, and the other colonies are obliged, ia
their intercourse with the Indians, to submit to the laws»
not of the British Parliament, but of a despotic unconstitn-
tional legislature in Canada ^ a measure calculated to produce
endless contentions and animosities.
Under the second head his Lordship proved, that the Po«
pish religion, though not in express terms, is in effect really
and fully established in the province of Quebec. By con-»
firming not only the laity in a free exercise of meir religion, but
the Romish clergy in the enjoyment of. all their former tythes
and ecclesiastical dues, rights, &c. and the bishop, (the.
Pope's representative) in the exercise <^ all his spiritual po-^
wers and functions, and in the disposal of one hundred and
eighty ecclesiastical benefices; and abo by dispensing with
the oath of supremacy, whereby every officar 01 government
in that province, both civil and military, even the governor
himself, may be of the Romish religion. And here bis Lord-
ship particularly referred to the act of the ist of Queen Eli-
^zabeth, which forever excludes the Pope bom all jurisdio
tion within the kingdom of England, and the dominions
thereunto belonging, or which may, at any future time be
acquired ; and prescribes an oath of supremacy to be taken
through this kingdom and all its dominions. .. This act his
Lordship represented as the great support and barrier of the
Protestant religion ; and, as being in its nature as sacred and
Tand'4nicmal as^ the act of settlement, or even as Magna Charta
K 4 itself;
1^6 PARLIAMENTARY A. t77f
itself; — and yet, said his Lordship, this l\as been unneees-
sarily and wantonly violated by the Quebec act," whereby
the oath which it prescribes is wholly dispensed with in that
province. His Lordship observed, that the capitulation vrtth'
Sir Jeffery Amherst, promised the people of Canada only a
toleration in the exercise of their religion, and tliat by the
definitive treaty of peace, they were only to be allowed to-
** profess the worship of their religion, according to the
rights of the Romish church, as far as the laws of Great
Britain permit '" that the utmost which the inhabitants of
Canada had expected, in consequence of this, was a religious
toleration, such as is allowed to Protestant dissenters in Eng-
land, whose clergy not only receive no tythes, but are ex*»
posed to a train of penalties from which they have in vain
solicited relief. — And that the Popish clergy of Quebec
were so far from expecting any grant of tythes, that they had
hot even asked for them in the course of more than ten years,
itrhich had since elapsed,— t-That they were unexpected — ^un-
reasonable bounties, " qimi nenio Divum promittere auderet^^
His Lordship farther observed, that by thus clothing the Po-
pish clergy with wealth and power^ and the rites of the Ro*,
mish religioxi, with that alluring splendor, magnificence and'
pomp, which are its chief supports, an impolitic insuperable*
bar was placed against the conversion of the people of Cana-
da, fix)m their present attachment to the Popish religion, andi'
their desire of returning again to the dominion of France.
Under the third and last head, his Lordship took a liberal
and an extensive review of the history and constitution of^
England, as well as of the royal prerogative, in respect tc^
new dominions and conquered countries; he animadverted
on the dpctrine said to have been delivered by Lord Mansfield
in the cause respecting the duty of ^\p€r cent, levied by the
erown In Grenada, and he clearly proved, that in all acces-*
sions of territory to the crown, the King is constitutionally
entrusted, and required to extend to his new subjects the
laws of England, and the benefit of a constitution similar to'
that of our own country— that he can give no less than those- .
rights and privileges which by the common law, as well as by
the act of settlement, are declared to be ** the birthright of
every British subject" — that accordingly this had been inva-
variably done in every acquisition of territory and dominion^
particularly : in the case of freland, of tlie counties Pnlatine,^
(Chester and Durham) of Wales, of Berwick upon IVeed,
of Calais, of Jamaica, of New-York, of St. Christopher's,
of Grenada, &c. — thiit the ^mc was also promised to be doi;e
in
A. 1775'' DEBATES. 137
HI the proTince of Quebec ; and that by the proclamation
of 1764, the faith of the crown was solemnly plighted to the
settlers in that and the other new colonies, that their re-
spective governors ^^ shall summon and call general assemblies
within the said governments respectively, in such manner and
form as is used and directed in those colonies and-provinces.
in America, which are under our immediate government ;'*
and, continues the proclamation, " we have also given power
to the said governors, with the consent of our said councils,
and the representatives of the people, so to be summoned as
aforesaid, to make, constitute, and ordain laws, statutes, and
ordinances^ for the public peace, wel&re, and good govern*
ment of our said colonies, and the people and inhabitants
thereof, as near as may be agreeable to the laws of England,
&c. ; and in the mean time, and until such assemblies can
be called as aforesaid, all persons inhabiting in, or resorting
to our said colonies, may confide in our royal protection^*
£oK the enjoyment of the benefit of the laws of our realm of
England," for whioh purpose courts of justice were to be
erected, &c. all which, Lord Camden observed, had been
done and fulfilled in every other province, excepting that of
Quebec, to which many settlers had been allured by this*
proclamation, who, by a most disgraceful viobtion of the
royal £aith, >werc since, with the rest of that province, sub*
jected to the civil laws of France, and to the despotism of a
governor and a dependent couhcil, instead of being • allowed
an assembly, and Laws made by the representatives of the"
people, as they were solemnly promised. His Lordship also
represented, that the tyrannical government thus estabUshed,
is considered as the most oppressive act of injustice by all'
the< protestant, and even by all the popish inhabitants of
Quebec, except the Romish clergy and French noblessej who
are willii^ to submit to a despotic government, for the sake
of tyrannizing over the peasantry of Canada. He likewise ob*
served, that the slavery imposed by the act in question is so
repugnant to the success of commerce, and abhorrent to the
feelings of native British subjects, that if it be not soon re»
pealed, both the former and latter will abandon that pro-
vince.
• His Lordship having by these, and many other facts and
arguments, proved the impolicy, injustice, tyranny, and ini-
quity of the act in question, declared, that it deserved to be
j:eprobated by the unanimous voice of Parliament, and' that
it would necessarily receive the censure of their Lprdships,'
if there remained the smallest regard for liberty and the con-
stitution
I3S PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
stkntion in one part of the House, (meaning the Lords Tern- '
poral) or for the Protestant religion in the other, (meaning
riieBijhops.) ...:■.
His Lordship concluded with offering the follofvingi
biU. '• • ■■'■-
A hill to repeal an act made in the last session of the. last Potm
hamenty intituledy An act for nuiking nwre effectual pr^^
vision for the ^government of the proviace of ^uehiCf in
North America^
Whereas an act was passed in the last session of the last
Fariiament, intituled. An act for making more efiectuai pro*
visicKi for tlie government of the province of Quebec, in
North Aniericit ;
And whereas the said act, contrary to the example of all
former times, and to the faith of his Majesty's proclamation
. isslfed in the year 1765, has established an arbitrary govem-
ineiit in the said province 5
And whereas the- said act, by permitting both the derr
gr and laity there to hold offices and benefices, without tak-
ing the oath of supremacy, and by granting to the PofMsb
clergy in the said province the enjoyment of their accustom-
ed dues and rights, lias intirely stopped the growth and pro-
pagadcm of the Protestant religion, and in the room thereof
has established the religion of the church of Rome in the
said province for ever \
And whereas the said act, by enlarging the boundaries of
the said province, and making the legislature thereof co-ex«»
tensive with the same, may put the Indian trade, among
other things, under the sole management of that legislature^
as in truth appears to be abready done, by the instructions
lately given to Governor Carleton, by which that trade>
which had before been freely carried on by all his Majesty's:
subjects in North America without restriction, is now to be
confbed to such regulations as the said legislature may think
fit to impose upon it, and thereby the rights of his Majesty^s
other colonies unwarrantably abridged and invaded ; and by
a Hke extension of the said legislature, the said other colonies
may come to be excluded from having any intercourse or cor-»
respondence whatsoever with the Indian nations of that vast
continent, without the leave or permission of the said legisla-
ture, which would naturally give rise to unnatural divisions,
and endless controversies between his Majesty's subjects of
the old colonies, and the inhabitants of the pew province of
Quebec;
May
A. 1775. D E B AT E S. ijj^
May it therefore please your most excellent Majesty,
That it may be enacted, and be it enacted by the Kiag^s
most excellent Majesty, by and with the advice and consent
of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal and the Commons in
this present Parliament assembled, and by the authority, of
the same, that from and after the first day of May, 1776, the
above mentioned act, r.nd the several matters and things there-
in contained, shall be, and is, and are, hereby repealed and
made void to all intents and purposes whatsoever.
This bill being read, Lord Camden acquainted the House,
that he had delayed the proposed repeal until the first of May
next, to the end that time might be obtained in the inten^al
to provide a better plan of government for the province of
-Quebec^
The Earl of Dartmouth said, he should decline entering
into a detailed view of the vast mass of matter which had
been gravelled over by the noble Lord who spoke before him.
He made the same objection to the mode of obtaining the
petition, and the. manner oi presenting it, as Earl Gower
had done* He said, that the petition had been ofiered to be
delivered to him four months ago, so early as the 23d or 24th
of January; but, besides, that his sentiments were clearly
ip favour of the a£l, he could not with propriety receive any
paper, importing to be a petition from the inhabitants of that
province, unless it came through the channel of the governor
and council. But, says his Lordship, supposing that the pe-
tition had been fairly obtained, what does it literally or sub-
stantially import ? Does it desire a repeal i Does it even
hint at any such thing ? How then can the noble and learn-
ed Loi?d come upon the ground of this, petition to Parlia-
ment to desire a repeal, when the very utmost the petitioners
themselves lopjc for is, that they may have the benefit of the
habeas corpus law, and the trial by jury ? The former of
which it is evident they are entitled to, by the laws of Eng-
land, and the iatter they now enjoy in all criminal matters.
His Lordsliip then re^d the address presented to Governor
Carleton from the French inhabitants on his arrival, and
their address to the King, wherein they express their ^ thanks
^id gratitude to his Majesty, for restoring them to their an-
cient ifights and privileges. These, he insisted, were the
most indubitfible proofs, that the French Canadians were
made happy by the change, and that by no one rule of good
policy, justice, or a regard to public faith, could it be expeft-
ed that nearly pne hundred thousand peaceable. loyal subjefts
should
14^ P A R L r A M E K T A R Y A.T775>
should be rendered unhappy and miserable, purely to gratify
the unreasonable request of tiro or three thousand persons,
who wished for what was impradticable^ and looked upoA
themselves deprived of what tiKey were actuafly in posisession
of.' On those grounds his Lordship moved foi^ the rejQctioA
of the bill.
The Duke of Richmond said, the present motion of rcpeA
was not supported solely on the contents of the petition new
presented, but on the idea that every noble ' Lord in tl^at
House had a right to propose an amendment, and move for
a repeal of any law which they deemed impolitic or oppresi^
sive* His Grace observed, that great industry had been used
€fn a former occasion, and he made no dpubt would-be muck
resorted to, and great stress would be laid on the same mode
of reasoning this day, that suppose the powers vested by the
act might, on account of giving the Canadians some ciVU
constitution suited to the immediate necessity of the 'case^
somewhat exceed those modes of legislation and government
usually exercised where no such necessity existed 5 yet th^
acknowledged disposition of those, to whom this power wtfl
delegated, removed the most distant jealousy or suspicioiry
that this trust would be abused. This maxim, say» \A^
Grace, applied directly, is certainly true in feet, thougk
notoriously fallacious in every other respect by way of argvv
ment ; for where would it lead us, but diredUy to the estabr
iishment of arbitrary power ? I am confident, there is not
a I^rd in this House, who has made politics his study, or hat
taken time to consider the different constitutions of govern;-
mcnt, that have been framed and established, but will agree
with me, that the true end of all civil regimen, is the napL
piness and prosperity of the governed 5 and that, conseq|^ient^
ly, the best government is that which iS^best exercised. Bvjt
I trust there is not a noble i-iord in ^his House^ wh^ wiM
openly contend, that because the p<±son to whom tht exe-
cution of the laws is entrusted probably will employ the
' trust thus committed to his charge with fidelity, and a dacred
rejcard for the interests of his people, that therefore thejr
shotildj from their unbounded confidence in him, foolishlj'
and blindly make a surrender of their rights and liberties %
thinkinjT his virtues and abilities transmissible and hereditary
With his political office. To guard against this mistake, oui*
constitution was first framed ; and e^Try one law enafted to
secure to us the blessings we at present enjoy, is directed npf
to bind good- princes, or dinxt wise ones, but to prevent
weak
A. 197^ ■:D. E t K T 'E 'S.'. " t4i
trdskorlnd tnen'from abusmgthat truk, t\giccsS3itr\ from
the nature of chril government, to be lodged somewhere. I
will even come tndire inunediately to the point before your
Iiordshjps, to the pcnanTl character of thie governor, who it
charged THth the icxdcution of thx>se monstrous arbitrary
powers which are the subject of this day's debate. I do not»
for my .^art, heHevc tharc is a more worthy or deserving
man brisathing.* I- know him well ; I have, I may say, lived
with him for several years^ and I am convinced of his high
integnTty and. eminent; skill in his profession ; but will it* fol«
low,? tlni because I know . General Carleton to be a man td
whoin'i might safely trust every thing I hold .ao 'dear and ^^
i;red, thsit "dicrefore I must wi^ to ' trust the Governor of
Ouebect be he whom he may, -with^ powers which,- froift
iSeir nature, if exercised at: all, must be productive df-6ppre»^
sion and iqtUtice^ and if .faadly exerdsed by any fiftdre G^
vei'nopwhainay happen to succeed him, may be turned into
«n engine of iofp^ressioh and tyranny equal to tKose claimed
by the most aisolute despot on earth? His Gi^ce, besides
Inv.geneitd argument, applied particularly to the Bishops to
tisr and explain idiemsc Ives on the cuticle of religion $ and
tirhetiief they were of ojpinitm that it was proper that Popery
ihdaid be indulged with, a le^slative estabhshment in any pait
«f-'the>BHtish empire ?
The Lord L^eiton threw out ah in^imiation, that those
H^ho opposed '■ the Quebec act, or desired the repeal of it,
wtcre 'factious persons; and concluded, with calling upon
administration, bo know what the SpaTiIards were about, a&
firming that the great armament fitting out in the Spanish
ports :could not be intended s^inst the Moors.
The Duke of iMiffnr/iAff ^, in a very manly, spirited speech^
rerpUed to the factious charges thrown out by the last nobie
3.*ord'fm bpposition in general. He said, he often happeneil
to- differ &om. administration; but he had never- till that day
heard such di£fenencex)f opinion directly imputed as a crimcy
CH^ biandcd with an indqcent and ilMbunded epithet.
-The Earl of Rocbjxmd^ I do* not think m]^lf obliged to
answqr the question now. put to me by the ndble Lord; noi"
were the matter of it priced on me by the niuted voice of
the TThole House, do I conceive, I woi!dd be .justified in di-
tmlging. in the infcNrmal manner desired^i the seerets of stat&
comihiia-fd to my knowledge. Yet, as far^as it may^ con--
aisfientrwithiihrnatm-ejof my office^ Iwtlhinferm hid^Lbsd*
ship ai^d^tbe House of ;9ifaat 1 im<yw. <«iicafnliig'.thO"arm«^
? . mcnr
i4t PARLIAMENTARY A, 177^.
ment he speaks of. By the best accounts I have been able
to collect, and no indnstry ha$ been wanting^ the anna-
ment consists of no more thsin twelve or thirteen men of War
of the line at most ; vhat the inferior vessels of force^ Cir the
number of frigates may be, I cannot precisely say. I un-
derstand, the land forces, so far from being prepaired to get
aboard, the transports, at a short vraming, thou^ they may
amount to about 30,000 men, are composed partly of cavalry
and guards, which can never be meant jEbr a naval ezpedi-*
tioa. Whatever suspicions such apptotmces may create,
I am to inform your Lordships, that our minister at tile
court of Madrid has been instructed to press for explana^
tbns, and has received the strongest assurances, that nothing
was intended against Great Britain or her allies. I cannot
say that I have any great rdiance on assurances in geneftl |
but yet ridiculous as it may appear to us, that the Spaniards
should incur so immense an expence, in preparationi . fer
chastising the Moors ; when their policy and religion arc con**
sidered, and that the Moorish war is taken up on coBScien-p
tious notions of religion, our wondcsr will in a great measure
cease. Besides, tliere are many other motives which mielif
probably induce Spain to arm at this time, without harvmsr
any hostile intentions against this country. Sicily is distnrbed
by civil commotion, and threaten(*d with latent diseoii<*
tents, which his Catholic Majesty feek for, almost as miich
as if they were in his own kingdom. A kind of war actu-
ally subsists between Spain and Portugal in the Brazils;
There is a revolt in Mexico, and the total silence of the con-
suls and the merchants, whose business and interest it is to
watch and give information, join to strengthen me in the
' same opinion ; and to give a credit to those assurances, v4iich
I should otherwise be rather inclined to deny. I have
only one more word to add, which is, that the Portuguese
envoy at this court seems perfectly undisturbed, and free
from apprehensions of any invasion of his country \ and
that if he should be mistaken, and that those armaments are
actually intended against Portugal, I shall, for my own part,
think Great Britain . as much interested in the event, as if
part of her own dominions were actually attacked.
The Earl of Brutal. I have not the least doubt, tty
Lordsybut the Spaniards have a very powerful naval armament
in great forwardness for the sea*, -and thou^ I cannot think,
from the tonnage and construction of the transports^ they
are calculated to convey troops beyond the ocean^ yet> I
must
A, 1775- DEBATES. 143
. must confess, Britain, however conscious she may be of her
qaval superiority, has -just reason JU> be seriously alarmed.
The npble £asl in office, [Earl of Rochfbrd] speaks of ii>-
surrections in Mexico, of a kind of "war at present subsisting
^between the subj^ts <£ his Catholic Majesty and the Portu-
guese in the Brazils *, and how deeply his Catholic Majesty
concerns himself in the latent discontents which threaten to
disturb the kingdom of Sicily. I need not repeat again^ that,
i^my opinion, this armament can never be intended to cross
the- ocean; neither do I think, if the transport service
were calculated for that purpose, would it be at all necessary
to colkct such a strong military force, so near the water-^idc %
and I beg leave to differ from his Lordship, when he supposes
they are scattered through the different provinces in cantoiv-
ments ; for if I be not misinformed, though they are not
{>erhaps just ready to embark, they are nevertheless stationed
in such a manna: as to be drawn together at a very short warn-
ing. In such a state of uncertainty, if intended at all for
. actual service, it may be asjced, whither are they destined ?
For my part, if I were to hazard a conjeaure, I sliould be
inclined to imagine for the coast of Africa, for Lisboi^ or
. Gibraltar i and ^e more so, against either of tlie two lattir*
for the very reason the noble Earl in oStcc has assigned,
that the land forces consisted in a good measure of cavalry,
imd the Spanish and Walloon guards, who never serve out
of the kingdom, but who might, very consistently with their
usual designation, cither co-operate with a fleet in attacking
Lisbon or Gibraltar. Every noble Lord in this House, l^
consulting the situation of the rendezvous, and its vicinity to
Gibraltar, may readily condude with wh^ £icility the iBeet
and transports might turn down into Gibraltar bay. It is
true, tha( Gibraltar is almost invulnerable on the land side,
and^ that , very strong defences and additional works have
been within the three or four last years erected towards the
sea. Yet, how much soever I may be inclined to depend
on the. bravery of the troops, and the ability of the officers
in superior con^nand, I would feel very sensibly for the fate
of that fortress, if attacked, and if qtot qiiickly relieved by
naval succours from England. I am certain, bei^re tliose
additional works were raised, it could i>ot hold put against a
. fleet of seventeen ships of the line a siiigle day ; ami even now
it.is. possible it would, be obliged to submit in a. week, though
. it.might hpld out much longer. A great deal \^ill however
depend, should su.ch a :di$agreeaUe event j^k;^p|iace,.pn the
prfscnt
144 ^ A R L < A M E N f A ft Y • A/f?^.
present state of our navy. If we have a forc^ eqiidl, or si*-
perior to theirs, ready at a short notice, it is probable, the
gallantry and spirit of the troops might be able to baffle every
attempt of the assailants, till succours should arrive. The
noble Earl at the head of the admiralty, who has, much- te
his honour, done more than any man who has presided sit
that board for upwards of a century, can inform the Housdy
whether or not a sufficient haval force could be ihade ready,
so as to answer the necessity of so critical an emergienc^
Before I sit down,! shall just trouble your Loi^dships ^iA
one other observation. The noble Earl in office strengthezlS
his own conjectures, and receives the assurances of the SpaN
nish court with an additional degree of confidence, as neither
the consuls nor xnerchants, whose immediate Inisiness and
interest it is to collect the earliest intelligence^ have expre^
sed the least uneasiness concerning this armament. But I
will venture, from my own experience, to ftssm^ his Loird*
ship, that although this circumstance may serve to corrobo-
rate others tending to the* same conclusion, detach it from At
rest, and it deserves very little weight. I remember what
happened in the year 1756, when I was- stationed in the
Mediterranean, and that the armaments and military prepai*
rations were going on ait Toulon, there was not a meiyrhant,
a consul, a naval or military officer could believe its destina^
tion, till Richelieu and the French troops were landed m the
island of Minorca, though reports of such their intentionik
had been current at London and the Hague some weeks be^
fore their debarkation at Fort St. Philip's.
The Lord Lytte/iort, in reply. I think 1 am rathei* con^
firmed in my opinion, relative to the" just appriehohsioiiai thib
armament now going on in the Spanish port^ should rttdte in
the breast of every man who feels for the honour *ahd' Interest
of his country; nor am I less satisfied of the propriety of
pressing the ditscusrfon of this important subject, ho^evchr
informal or unprecedented it may appear ■ to some of yotdr
Lordships. I did not press the noble Earl in office to betray
the secrets of it, nor divulge matters of state; I wished only
to give his Majesty's ministers, if they thought proper, an
opportunity of averting part of the censure which might
be undeservedly thrown on them, in case an unexpected bloW
should happen to be struck, and prevent the fraud and im-
position the people liiight be Hable to from a few among theni,
perhaps, who might have better or earlier intelligence than
the rest. I have, it is true, no mat opinion of S^^anish po-
litics^ yet I must abide by my former assertion^ tl\at I am
convinced.
A.r775- D E B A T Z'S: 145
convinced, however conscientious his Catholic Mijjesty- may
be and desirous of propagating the cliristian faith, iMid exr
tirpating the enemies of the cross, his M^esty, much. Jess
his ministiers, would never put the nation to the enormous
expcnce of the present armament, merely to make proselytes
in the wilds and desarts of Africa. The Spanish cabinet is
composed, like those of other princes, of men of different
abilities aftd dispositions ; and business is transacted in it, as
it is in. all others, where there is no prime miinister, by a
plurality of voices. I can never, therefore, be persua4ed to
think, that a n[iajority of men, trained up to public biuriness^
could ever be led to adopt so wild, incoherent, and preposte-
rous a measure. The noble Earl in oiHce seems to place too
great a reliance on the positive assurances given by the Spa-
nidi court ; and I will tell your Lordships wliy I think so
(not that I would give less or greater credit to assurances
from that court than any other). It is because I am well in-
formed 5 I know it to be the current language of the several
brauiches of the house of Bourbon, that they do not look
upon themselves bound to give us any pre\4oiis information
of their hostile intentions, either by declaration of war or
otherwise, on account of our capture of the French ships
before the commencement of the late war. On the whole>
the noble Earl who spoke last has put the matter upon the
clearest and most incontrovertible footing, not upon the faith
of Spanish assurance, or their ideas of political justice or in-
justice, but on what are our powers of immediate resistance,
should such an attempt be made. I do therefore call upon
the noble Earl at the head of the admiralty, to inform the
House what force we have immediately ready to put to sea,
should the £rst accounts from that quarter bring us intelli*
gence, that Gibraltar was attacked by a Spanish fleet.
The Earl of Sanckvich. The noble Lord who spoke last,
has called upon me particularly to come to certain explana-
tions, which I do not by any means think myself obliged
to give, nor his Lordship authorised to ask. Eo,vever, as
the main part of his enquiry depends upon fiacts notorious,
and already sufficiently public, I can with propriety tell his
Lordship, that wc have seventeen sail of the line fit -for im-
mediate service ; that the number of men wanting to com-
pleat the ships to their full complement would not be more
than about 4500 ; that by issuing press-warrants they might
be readily procured in a week ; and that the whole artna-
ment would be ready to proceed to sea within ten days at
furthest. This is the pl^in state of the case, and is what I
have frequently declared in this House, an4 to several of
Vol. IL . L ^'^vsk
146 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
your Lordships out of it. What the total amount of the
Spanish force may be, or whether we have a fleet on a sudden
emergency fit to cope with them, is more than I will .now
venture to determine ; but this I am convinced of, that in
• a very little time we shall have eighty men. of war of the
line, with all the necessary stores for their equipment, ready,
as occasion may require, to be drawn out into actual service ;
which is a force superior to any the united efforts of our
enemies can possibly bring against us.
The Earl of BrhtoL The noble Earl has told us, and
I make no doubt very truly, that we have seventeen sail of
•the line ready to proceed to sea at a few days notice. iBut
I should be glad to know from his Lordship, in the event of
•Gibraltar being attacked with such a fleet as has been this
'day mentioned, whether his Lordship is of opinion it would
be prudent to send the whole force he speaks of to the im-
mediate relief of that fortress*
The Earl of Sandwich. I can hardly think myself enabled,
Jfrom my official situation, to answer the noble Earl's qties-
^on. That is a matter of state, not, in my opinion, at
all connected with the immediate business of dq^artmehtv
If I was ordered to comply yrith such a requisition, I must
certainly obey it, whatever might be my own private opinion,
my sentiments in this House, or the arguments I might
use elsewhere, when it came under deliberation as a mat-
ter of state. For instance, if I received directions to order
out half the number, or the whole, or keep the fleet at
home to defend our own coasts, the question would not
turn on what I, in my official capacity, wished to do ; but
what the majority of his Majesty's servants had really de-
cided. As to the force and the facility of sending it to sea, I
need only appeal to the noble Earl himself, to whom, in a
great measure, the nation is obliged for that arrangement.
When his Lordship sat as a member at the board at which I
have the honour to preside, I stood much indebted to him
for his assistance in effectuating the plan, by which we are
enabled, at all times, to have a fleet ready to put to sea on •
a few days notice, by converting the guardships, which for-
merly were almost totally useless, into vessels fit for imme-
diate service ; and though still I have his private assistance,
I must confess I have great reason to regret his absence
from that board.
•■ The Archbishop of Canterburyj in answer to what had
fallen from the two noble Dukes, and the noble. Lord who
/^resented the bill, observed^ that so far from the Protestant
. religion
A. 1775- DEBATES. 147
religion being totally neglected at Quebec, four clergymen
of the church of England were actually established in that
province, with a stipend of 200I. per annum each ; that more
would be appointed, as soon as the necessity of the case, or an
increase of population, should require it ; and denied that
the Po{Hsh religion was established at Canada, or that it was
possible for Parliament to have acted otherwise, consistent
with the faith of the capitulation, or the terms of the de-
finitive treaty.
The Lord Wycombe [Earl of Shelburnc:]. It is with
great diffidence and reluctance that I presume to trouble
yoiir Lordships on a subject which has been so ably and fully
discussed by so many noble Lords, much better informed
and capable to decide on it. I cannot, however, be so en-
tirely wanting in my duty, as a member of this august as-
sembly, to pass over in total silence some things which
have fallen in the course of this day's debate. A noble Lord,
who spoke early, [Lord Lyttelton] has said, that there arc
some jwresent who regret the absence of a certain noble Lord
from his place [Earl of Chatham.] If that be a crime, I am
willing to share part of the imputation, for I own myself
one of that number, though I by no means agree with his
Lordship in the motives he has assigned for that absence^
nor in the supposed sentiments attributed by him to the
noble Earl respecting the Quebec act. I am, on the contrary,
convinced, that he would have been present in his place
on this occasion, were it not * for an accident -, and so far
from approving of the bill in every other part but relative to
the sedentary fishery, that from every thing I could learn
then, and in every private conversation I have had the ho-
nour to have since had. with him, I have found his senti-
ments to be for condemning the bill /// toto. I believe the
noble Lord has but a confused recollection of the true state
of that matter, otherwise he must have remembered, that
his Lordship's supposed reconcilement to the bill was no
part of what he now alludes to, but that the very mini*
sters themselves disapproved of divesting the Commodore on
the Newfoundland station of the controul over the fishery on
the coast of Labradore. The other parts of the bill having
been already so fully discussed, I shall just crave your Lord-
ships' patient attention to a few words on the dangerous
consequences and certain pernicious effects which must flow
from annexing this fishery tp the province of Quebec, and
taking it out of the superintendence and ;|<x>ntroul of the
commander of his Majesty's ships of war on the Newfound-
La land
148 P A R L I A M E NT A R Y A; 1775',
land station. By the bills lately passed, it seems to be the
professed policy of those in power to wish and endeavour to
reserve the whole of the Newfoundland fishery for the be-
nefit of the inhabitants of Great Britain and Irehnd/' I
will say nothing of the immediate spirit which has given rise
to this policy ; but this I will venture to affirm, that not a
single reason was adduced either from the evidence at your
Lordships' bar, or in the House, that did not directly apply
to evince* the supreme folly of annexing the Labradore fish-
ery to the province of Quebec. It was both proved and
pressed in argument, that the spirit of the act of the 12th of
William the Third should be strictly adliered to, that of pre-
venting settlers and making as many sailors as possible ; in
fihe, strongly condemning the permission of a sedentary
fishery. What was the evidence of a most able and expe-
rienced naval officer [Sir Hugh Palliser] on that occasion ?
That the settlers have done every thing in their power to de-
feat the periodical fishery from Europe 5 that they destroyed
their nets, seduced the men to run away and get over to the
continent ; and that they supplied the fishermen with French
^^rituous liquors and other French commodities. Now, my
Lords, I would submit, if there be any one Lord in this
House who will take upon him to affirm, that every one of
those evils will not encrease an hundred fold ; or that' we
shall be able to prevent them on the coast of Labradore,
where, if aggrieved, the party must go all' the way to Que-
bec to seek redress against Frenchmen and French snaite^
gling, when even numberless evils were, by the naturtrlnr'
the service, obliged to be left uncorrected, under almost
the very eye of the commodore. The peltry, or skin trade^
tny Lords, is a matter which I presume to affirm is of the
utmost magnitude, and of the last importance to the trade
and commerce of the colonies and this country. The ar-
rangement and regulation of this business has, give me leave
to say, cost his Majesty's ministers more 'cime and trouble
than any one matter I know of. The noble Earl behind me
[Earl of Hillsborough] it is true, difi^ered from me among
others of his Majesty's servants, on the regulating the trade.
with the Indians ; but it was never so much as dreamt of,
that the whole skin trade, from Hudson's Bay to the forks of
the Mississipi, should be at once taken fi:om the several Ame-
rican colonies, and transferred to the French Canadians $
or, which is substantially the same thing, that by a royal
instruction the sole direction of it siiould be vested in the
governor of Quebec For, I will be bold to contend,
whatever
A. i^^s. D £ BAT E S. 149
whatever colourable construction may be put on it, it will
operate as a compleat exclusion, and total monopoly, so far
as the Protestant British colonies can possibly be interested.
.f think, however foreign the subject relative to. the Spanish
armaments may be to the subject of this debate, or irregu-
lar it may have seemed to introduce it in such a manndh,
I must confess myself very ready to dispense with mere forms,
when matters o( such singular importance so pressingly call
for our notice and most serious deliberation. I remember a
few years since, that we were lulled into a security which
must inevitably have proved fatal, but for the strange revolution
which took place in the French cabinet, the dismission of
that bdld entcrprizing minister Choiseul, who had planned
the destruction of this country, in revenge for the disgraces
France had sufiered, and the repeated injuries, he imagined,
she had received in the course of a long, glorious, and suc-
cessful war carried on by Great Britain. I will not pretend
to" dive into the secrets of cabinets farther than I am wcU
warranted, or jwresume to point out the persuasive arguments
employed to bring over the woman to whose influence this
tinexpected turn of afiairs is attributed ; but this I will
denture to assert, because I have the proofs in my power,
that Gibraltar, Minorca, Jamaica, and the greater part of
our possessions in the East and West Indies, would have
been among some of the first sacrifices that would have fallen;
had it not, I may say, been for the miraculous interposition
gL-Providence in our favour. We were, then, not a whit
ITO consistent than we are now ; though we had not a single
line of battle ship fit for actual service. I trust, however
fashionable it may be to hold the same language at present,
we should not again trust to the chapter of accidents, but
that we will make an enquiry into the true state of our
navy, as well as the conduct of the persons to whose care
it has been entrusted ; and whenever that day shall come,
I pledge myself to ycmr Lordships, that I will take an active
and decided part in bringing to condemnation such as have
been wanting in their duty. Two things hare come out
in the debate, which I cannot bring myself to subscribe
to ; one is, that the Spaniards are not to be depended on ;
and that tlie language of the house of Bourbon is justifiable,
because we took their ships before a declaration of war.
On the former I shall only observe, that I presume the Spa-
niards, in their public transactions, have as much honour
as any other nation 5 and that though I was but a child
at the tim^, by the best and most impartial account I hare
L 3 read
I5Q. PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
read on that affair, I never could discover but Great Britain
was fully justified in her conduct on that occasion.. I shall
trouble your Lordships with but one observation ihore, xcl^r
tive to the determined pacific system of the court of Vcrr
sailles, so confidently set forth and relied on by the first noble
Earl in office who spoke in this debate 5 and I trust youF
l*ordships will thinfe it fiilly in point, should the court of
Spain by their conduct, create the occasion. In the year 1 74 1 ,
in the second or third year of the Spanish war, during the
ministry of the Cardinal [Fleury] a man of the most pacific
dispositions that ever directed the councils pf France, Lord
Waldegrave, being then our ambassador at Paris, frequently
pressed his eminency Jrelative to an armament then fitting out
at Brest, to know its destination, or whether particularly it
yras meant to join and co-operate with the Spanish fleet. The
Cardinal always assured him, in the futiest and most explicit
terms, that France was resolved to take no part whatever in
the quiur^el subsisting between the two crowns. His Lordr
ship, however, went out one day, and heard it publicly as-
serted in the streets, that the fleet had sailed from Brest, and
was destined to reinforce the Spanish fleet, then cruizing in
the Mediterranean 5 on which he immediately repaired to the
Cardinal to upbraid him with his breach of promise, if the
fact should turn out to be true. " You were not misinformr
ed, my Lord," replied' the Cardinal, ^* the fleet is actually
sailed, and for the purpose you heard. I confess likewise,
that I had frequently soleinnly assured you of the contrary;
and further I own, that Spain is entirely in the wrong, and
that it is perhaps neither prudent or politic in us to take part
in their business; but 1 would wish you, my Lord, at th^
same time to perfectly understand, though we do not approve
pf the motives of their going to war, and will always carefully
avoid to encourage them in their broils in the first instance,
when engaged for any time, we can never submit to remain
inactive spectators of their ruin, and your consequent aggran-
dizement."
The 1 *Gr J Mansfield rose to defend the general principles
pf the bill, and to reply to the objections lurged and support-
ed by those who were in favour qf the repeal. His Lord-
ship, though he did not directly own the sentiments imput-
ed to him, containing certain doctrines in law and politics,
said to have been maintained by him in giving judgment in
the cai'st; of Cam])bell against the Receiver General of Gret-
;ia<lv\, relative to the ^h per ant, duties claimed by the King
on tli^ exported produce of tliat island, yijjtually proved, nc-
verthel
.ess,
A, 1775^. D E B A T E S. 151
vertheless, that the sentiments were not without foundation^
because he endeavoured to defend every single proposition
they contained. This general defence, brought up Lord
Camdetiy who went over the same ground agaio> bv either
maintaining his former positions, illustrating the facts on
whicTi they werfe buiit, or replying to. every answer that
had in- the course of the debate been attempted to be made
to his original objections, and at the conclusion claimed'
the victory, in reference to those objectionable do£fa*incs-.
adverted to in the niorning: observing, that the learned
Lord [Lord Mansfield] had deserted the main proposition,
on which all the others rested > namely, that the King coming
in as a conqueror, could give tlie conquered any constitu-
tion, he pleased; or, if the new subjects claimed the benefit
of -capitulation or cession, the King might, at his option,
stand in the pliv:e of the former prince; whereas the learned
Lord was now obliged to confess, contrary to his former
opinion, that a King of England could not in any circum«
stances, or coming in under any title, exercise an arbitrary
power, or reign over any of the subjects of the British Em-
pire in a despotic manner, against the spirit of* the constitu-*
tion.
[This law contest lasted near two hours; but Lord Cam-»
den having in reply to something Lord Mansfield said, such
as that some constitution was betteir than none, pledged him-f
self to produce a better in twenty-four, or even twelve hours;
the Eai*l of Denbigh stood up, and demanded, why the noble
and learned Lord had not produced one before.]
This debate lasted till ten o'clock: when the question
was put, on the Earl of Dartmouth's motion to reject the
proposed bill. The House divided. Contents, 88 ; Npvir-
contents, 28.
The following were the Non-contents.
Dukes of Gloucester Earls of Eflingham
Cumberland Spencer
Richmond Bishop of Exeter '
Manchester Lords Craven
Marquis of Rockingham Ponsonby
Earls of Abingdon Ravcnsworth
Scarborough Archer
Stanhope Wycombe
Cholmondeley Beaulieu
Fitzwilliam Camden
Radnor
1^4
Tie
151 . P All LI AM E NT ART A. 1775.*
The following Lords ^otcd by proxy.
Du^es of .Devonshire ^ Viscount Torrington
Portland ' Bishop of St. Asaph
Earls of Stemford Lord King
Tanl£erville
May 18.
The Duke of Manchester brought in a memorial from the
house of assembly at New-York, and moved that the same
might be read.
* The Earl of Dartmouth observed, that it was usual for »
Lord, when he presented a petition, to state the subject of it/
,in order for the House to have an idea how far it wais proper
to give leave for it to be read.
sThe Duke of Manchester replied, that he could not take
upon him to state the matter of the petition without doing in*
justice to it; but, in general, it was to complain of grievances;
and read the concluding words.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire said, it ought certainly to be
opened more fully, and desired to know if it did not contam
matter derogatory to the supreme legislative power of Great
Britain.
The Earl of Denbigh observed, that the title of the pa-
per rendered it inadmissible : It was called a memorial.
Now memorials are presented from one crowned head to
another; but as to a memorial from an American assembly,
it was unheard of, and ought not, on that account, to be
read.
The Earl Gower added to this, that the title given to the
paper was suspicious: A petition from the same assembly
had been presented to the King, the colonies not deny-
ing the supreme rights of his Majesty; a remonstrance to
tiie Commons, and now a memorial to the Lords. They
dropt the usual wor<.l petition, lest from that it should be
imagined that they acknowledged the supreme powen of •
those branches of the legislature; upon this account there-
fore the contents of it ought to be opened more to the -
House.
The Duke of Manchester replied, that if the House ih-
$isted on his performing the office of clerk he would submit,
but till then he should decline reading it; and as to opening
the subject of it he had done it already.
The Earl of Hillsborough said, that the orders of the House
were not to be dispensed with; a Lord was not allowed to
present a petition unlvios he opened the purport of it; that
ti^c tiohh Duke reading it in his place, as a part of his
speech.
A. 1775- DEBATES. 153
speech, would be dccepte4 by the House; or if the Duke
thought that it would he too great a burthen for him to
read it himself, that then the clerk might go to him, and
standby his Grade, and read the memorial as- a part of his
speech.
The Duke of Richmond ridiculed this idea. What, xsxf
Lords! the clerk go and stand by a Lord and read a paper,
as a part of that Lord's speech! Very pretty truly! Why
then we need not any of us be iat the trouble of making
speeches; we need only get our speeches written for us, and
have the clerk read them; We may then any of us prove aii
eloquent . as the noble Earl himself. Objections (he added)
have been made to the term Memorial, as 'if belonging to so-
vereigns, and denying our rights : that is vtery strange, surely;'
when it is well known every ensign in the army, who has ob-
jections to the treatment he receives, has the right of present-
ing a memorial to the iE^ing; I think, therefore, therjj is no-
thing in the term derogatory to the 'dignity of this 'House
in it.
The Earl of Sandwich contended, that the noble Duke
had been repeatedly called on to open the contents of the
memorial, but would not comply ; for as to , tellittg the
House merely' it was a complaint of grievances, that was
nothing sati^ctory: as this was the case,* he moved an
amendment to the Duke's motion for reading the memorial,
by adding the words, " the contents of which had not been
opened.'*
The Duke of Richmond observed, that this amendment
threw a reflection on the noble Duke who brought in the
memorial, which would be highly unjust : that in his opinion
the contents had been opened;: that is, the principal part of
the memorial, the prayer of it, which was for a redress of
grievances; therefore, if the amendment was accepted, he
must move another to do justice to the noble Duke, by an ex-
planation of how £ir he had opened it; and moved to add the
concluding words of the' memorial which the Duke of Man-
chester had read.
The Earl Gower said, that the noble mover had not opened
the contents; for merely saying it was for a redress of griev-
ances, and reading the concluding words, was saying nothing,
unless he mentioned what those grievances were : a friend of
the house of Stuart might petition for the redre$s of a griev-*
ance; and that grievance mi^ bt the want of the ^xrone;
thus, if. the particulars are not mentioned, we can judge of
nothing.
The
154 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
The Lord Camden spoke exceeding well; he stated the
gr^iiijustice of not allowing a Lord to open the contents
pif a petition in the way. he thought proper; there could be
but two ways, one forcing him to read the whole, which
wa^ a drudgery they could not think of j the other, touch- .
ipg the heads of it : now, if a Lord is to open the con-
tents particularly, and upon that opening the fate of the
petition is to depend, then it must depend upon the capa-
city and abilities of the individual who does it, which
wcMild be throwing a negative upon petitions in general.
Bat he was so great a firiend to petitions being received and
read) let them come from whom they might and under ;what-
cyer name, that throwing these obstructions upon them
xnust be very mischievous. That the amendment in favour
Qf the noble Duke was highly reasonable and ought :to be
accepted.
The Lord Mansfield spoke to the order of the proceedings
of the House, and attempted to shew that a Lord mu^t open
the contents of a petition, and that the Duke of Manchester
had not done it.
The Lord Wyeombe^lE-jirl of Shelbume] reminded the House^
that when the City of London presented their remonstrance
to the King, lawyers were consulted upon the legality of not
receiving it; yet so highly was the right of a subject to peti-
. tion thought of, that it was deternpned it must be received,
mider whatever name.
The Earl of Effingham, The turn which this debate has
tfiken, makes it unnecessary for me to remark on any thing
which in the course of it has fcilien from any noble Lord ;
but as I wish to call youx Lordships' attention rather to the
subject matter, than to the form and manner of the paper
offered to you, I hope I shall stand excused, if I treat the latter
as trifling, when put in competition with the s;dutary or
dreadful effects of admitting or rejecting the means now in
your hands, of restoring harmony to this distracted empire.
What may be tl\e fate of the amendment proposed, I know
not; but I fear it is too easily to be guessed, from tlie
complexion 'of the House, what will be that of the me-
morial. If any thing, my Lords, can add to the reluctance
with which I at any tim(; trouble. your Lordsliips, it is a
Gorisciousness of my own inability to treat this subject as it
cjiight to be treated. Indeed tlie importance of it is such,
;:s would deter me from entermg into it at all, did I not think,
thcit ill tiie precarious situation in which this country -standji
at
A. 1775* DEBATES. 155
at present, it is the duty of .every man to avow his prin^*
ciples and sentiments .with firmness and integrity. The ij>
dulgence which I have before experienced, encourages me 4;o'
expect again from your candour, that attention, which t
have not, like many among yoiu: Lordships, the abilities tQ
command. I confess I wim to avoid the discussion of our
right to such a power as we afe contending for; that is tp
say, a power of taxing a set of subjects who are not repre^
sented among us, and who have full power to tax themselves
in the ordinary and constitutional manner. Were any paxy
licular province among the Americans to refuse grants of
money in proportion to others, or to coxpmit any actixi
abuse of thejr charters, I think that supreme controuling^
power, which the province in question aUofivs in its full exr
tent, would give us the charge, Ne quid detrimenti^ res
capiat pMica. And in that case, my Lords, almost ^e
whole empire would be united against the wrong-headed frw^
who would be soon brought to reason. But I am satisfiedf
that without such necessity, we have no more right to exer*^
else the power of taxation in that country, than a ^tomai^
du^tpr ha4 to begin his office with a declaration, that his
power should be perpetual, and was necessary in the ordinary
bufiness of government. Therefore, my Lords, whatever
has been done by the Americans, I must deem the mere
consequence of pur unjust demands. , They have coihe to
you with fair arguments, you havq i^i^sed to hear them|
they make the most respectful remonstrances, you answer
them wit)i bills of pains and penalties \ they know thqr
ought to be free, you tell, them they shall be slaves. Is it
then a wonder, if they say in despair, ^^ for the short roi*
mainder of our lives, we will be free !" Is there oi^
among your Ix)rdships, who in a situation similar to that
which I have described, would not resolve the same ? If
there could be such a one, I am sure he ought not to be
here. To bring the history down to the present scene.
Here are two armies in presence of each others armies of
brothers and countrymen ; each dreading the event, yet
each feeling, that it is in the power of the most trifling ac-
cident, a private dispute, a drunken fray in any public
house in Boston; in short, a nothing, to cause the sword
to be drawn, and to plunge the whole country into all the
horrors of blood, flames and parricide. In this dreadful
moment, a set of men, more wise and moderate than the rest,
exert themselves to bring us aU" to reason. They state
their
156 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177J.
their claims and thdr grievances; nay,- if any tUng can
be proved bjhv and history, they prove them. They pro-
jpose oblivion j they make the first concessions; we treat
th«n with contempt, we prefer poverty, blood, and servitude^
to health, happiness, and liberty. My Lord*, I should
think myself guilty of ojffering an • insult to your Ijordships,
if I presumed to suppose there was any amongst you who
could think of what was expedient, when once it appeared
what was just. I might otherwise have adverted to the very
ibrmidable armament preparing by Spain; but as that air-
Siment ought to have no consideration with your Lord-
ips, I shall not supt)Ose it would have any; arid for that
reason will entirely reject it. What weight these few ob-
'servations may have, I don't know ; but the candour your
Lordships have indulged me with, requires a confession on
mf part wliich may still lessen that weight. I must own
i am. not pcTjsonally disinterested. Ever since I was of an
1^ to have ariy ambition at all, my highest has been to serve
toy cdttntry in a military capacity. If there was on earth
to event I dreaded^ it was to see this country so situated as
to make tl^at profession incompatible with my duty as a ci-
txz^* ' ■ That period is, in my opinion, arrived ; arid I
fcrve' thought myself bound to relinquish the hopes I had
formed, by a resignation which appeared to me the <mly me-
ttod of avoiding the guilt 'of enslaving my country, and
wiibruing my hands iH the blood of her sons. When the
'duties of a soldier and atntizen become inconsistent, I shall
ihrayS think myself obliged to sink the character of the sdi-
tlier in that of the citizen, till such time as those duties shall
:^n, by the malice of our real enemies, become united*
It is ho siAall sacrifice which a man makes who gives up
his profession ; but it is a much greater, when a preddiftion,
strengthened by habit, has given him so strong an attach*
ment to his profession as I feel. I have, however, this one
consolation, that by making that sacrifice, I at least give
to my country an unequivocal proof of the sincerity of my
iprinciples^
The House divided at half past eight.
For reading the memorial 25.
• Ajhinst it, 45'.
The
A.T775- DEBATES. 157
The following is a copy of the memorial.
To the Right Honourable the Lords Spiritual and Temporal (f
Great Britain^ in Parliament assemUid.
The memorial of his Mc^estf s faithful subjects and represetit^
tives of the Colony of New-Tork^ in general assembly con*
vened, . '
May it please your Lordships,
'■ We his Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the
representatives of the colony of New- York, in general as-
sembly convened, are conscious, when we address your
Lordships, that we arc applying to a body who have ever
been distinguished for the firmest attachment to the princit
pies of liberty, and that happiest result of them, the British
constitution.
We acknowledge ourselves, and the people we represent,
strictly bound by the ties of fcuth and allegiani;e to our most
gracious sovereign, that we justly owe the same faith and alle-
giance as are due to him from his subjects in Great Britaiiiy
that we regard him with the utmost veneration, and that wc
shall be ever ready to contribute to his service^ and to support
the dignity of his crown and government*
We esteem ourselves happy in our connection with the pa*
rent state, whose true interests are inseparably united with cm
own ; and we aire fiilly sensible, that none but the enemies of
ix)th countries could ever wish to disjoin them.
Impressed with these sentiments, we consideir ourselves as
parts of one great empire, in which it is necessary there should
be some supreme regulating power. But though we acknow*
ledge the existence of such power, yet we conceive it by no
means comprehends a right of binding Us in all cases whatso*
ever, because a power of so unbounded an extent) would to*
tally deprive us of security, and reduce us to a state of the
most abjective servitude.
The colonies, as your Lordships know, were not in con-
teihplation when the forms of the British constitution were
established; it followed, therefore, from its principles, when
colonization took place, that the colonists carried with them
fill the rights they were entitled to in the country from which
they emigrated ; but as, from their local circumstances, they
were precluded from sharing in the representation in that
legislature in which they had been rcprcseoted, they of right
claimed, and enjoyed a legislature of tlieir o'Vfrn, always ac*
knowledging the King, or his representative, as one branch
thereof. This right they have pointedly^ repextedly, and
;5ealously asserted, as what only could afford tiiem that se-
curity
158 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
curity which their fellow subjects in Great Britain enjoy
under a constitution, at once the envy and admiration of
surrounding nations, because no money can b^ raised upon
the subject of Great Britain, not any law made that is bind-
ing on him, without the concurrence of those who have been
elefted by the people to represent them.
For what happiness can the colonists expect, if their
lives and properties are at the absolute disposal erf others ?
And that power which, when restrained within its just
bounds, would dispense light and heat to the whole empire,
may be employed like a devouring flame, to consume and
destroy them.
Your Lordships will excuse, nay, we doubt not will com-
mend us, for speaking at this important juncture with the
freedom becoming the representatives of a free people, when
addressing ourselves to this most illustrious body.
We therefore beg leave, on this occasion, to declare, we
conceive the people of the colonies entitled to equal rights
and privileges with their fellow subjeets in Gr^t Britain 5 and
that upon these principles it is a grievance of a most alarm-
ing nature, that the Parliament of Great Britain should
claim a right to ena£t laws, binding the colonies in all cases
whatsoever.
Incompatible as this claim is with the very idea of freedom^
your Lordships cannot wonder that the colonies should ex-
press an invincible repugnance to it. Absolute and uncpn-
troulable power in any man, or body of men, necessarily im-
plies absolute slavery in those who are subject to it ; even
should such a power not be carried into execution, yet let it
be remembered, that the liberties of an Englishman are his
rights, and that freedom consists not in a mere exemption
from oppression, but in a right to such exemption founded
on law and the principles of the constitution.
But your Lordships cannot be ignorant that this claim has
been exercised in such a manner as to give the colonists the
utmost uneasiness, and the most unexceptionable grounds of
complaint.
Duties, for the express purpose of raising a revenue in
America, have been imposed upon several articles imported
direftly from Great Britain, or the British colonies, and
on foreign wines, an article which does not in the least in-
terfere with the produdls of Great Britain, nor any of its
colonies.
The jurfsdiftion of the admiralty courts have been ex-
tended beyond its antient limits ; the judges of those courts,
invested
A. 1775- DEBATES. / I59
invested with new and unccmstitutional powers) the sub-
jects iti America, in many cases, divested of that invaluabll:
privilege, a trial by jury, and a discrimination highly inji»-
rious held up b^ween us and our fellow subjedb in Great
Britain.
Acts have been passed for the purpose of suspending the
legislature of this colony from the exercise of its constitu-
tional powers, till it should cotoiply with requisitions which
it had before judged improper, and laying an unreasonable ro-
straint upon us' with respect to the emission of a paper cur-
rency to be a legal tender within the coFony.
Officers employed in the administration of justice, have
been rendered independent of the people with respect both
to their salaries and the tenure of their commission, where-
by they are forced from those checks, to which, as servants
of the public, they ought to be subject, although the re-
presentatives of the people have ever been ready, and now
declare their willingness to make suitable provision for their
support.
New and unconstitutional acts have been passed, and con-
structions made of an old one, by which the American subjeot
is directed to be tried for offences, either real or supposed, not
in the place where the fact was committed, where Ins witnesses
.reside, and thbir. characters are known, but in a strange coun-
try, where his witnesses may not attend, and where their cre-
dibility cannot be ascertained..
We are extremely imhappy that occasion has been given
us to add to the catalogue of our grievances, the laws enact-
ed in the last session of the late Parliament, for shutting ii^
the port of Boston, for altering the government of the Massa-
chuset's Bay, and for the impartial administration of justice, in
certain cas^s, in that province.
Although it is not our intention to enter into a justifica-
tion of the measures which occasioned those acts, or to inti-
mate an approbation of the mode pursued for redressing the
grievances of which they have been productive, yet we can-
not help viewing them as forming precedents of so dangerous
a nature, as must render the privileges, the property, and
even the hves of all his Majesty's American subjects precarious
and insecure.
By other acts of the same session, the bounds of -tbe pro^-
vince of Quebec are considerably extended; the Roman
Catholic religion may be construed to be established through-
out that province ; and such regulations are enacted respect-
ing its trade, as not only hold up a discrimination between the
continental.
i6o PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
continental, and other colonies, injurious ta the fortnery biit
In the establishment of the port of entry, canndt bd\ totally
to deprive this colony of an extensive and important com-
merce, which it formerly carried on with the native Indian
inhabitants of that vast track of country, now included Mritb-
in the Tx>unds of that government.
These are the principal grievances under which our coii-
stituents at present labour ; but though we conceive it our
duty thus fully to lay them before your Lordships, we beg
leave to assure you, that we shall always chearAilly submit
to the constitutional exercise of tiie supreme regulating power
.lodged in the Klng^ Lords and Commons of Great Bri-
tain, and to aU acts calculated for the general weal of the
•-empire, and the due regulation of the trade and conunerce
thereof.
We conceive this po^er includes a right to lay duties npon
all articles imported directly into the colonies from any foreign
country or plantation which may interfere with products and
manufactures of Great Britain, or any other part of- his Ma-
jesty's dominions ; but that it is essential to freedom, and the
undoubted rights of our constituents, that no taxes be imposed
on them but with their consent given personally, or by their
lawfril representatives.
Whilst, therefore, we entertain such dispositions of obedi-
ence to the lawful powers of government, of allegi^tnce to our
most gracious Sovereign, and attachment to the parent coun-
try ;. we humbly hope that your Lordships will aid and con-
cur in redressing our grievances, removing all causes of dissen-
•won with Great Britain, and establishing our rights and pri-
vileges upon a solid and lasting foundation.
And your memorialists shall ever pray.
By order of the general assembly,
JOHN CRUGERs Speaker.
Assemhly-chatnhery city of
NeiV'Torky 2^th day of
March, 1775-
May 19.
The Duke of Richmond stated to the House, with great
clearness, that a strange and dani:^erous mistake had been
madq in an appeal, in the case of Sir Thomas Broughton.
He said, the cause was first tried ui the court of Common
Pleas, and the judgment there was very generally approved
of in Westminster Hall. But upon an appeal to the King's
Bench,
A; ijfs. jft E B A T E S. i(Jt
B^nch, some new light had ftruck the noble Lord who pre-'
«ided/ there in consequence of which the judgment wa^
reversed. From this reversal there was an appeal to that
House; The opinions of the Exchequer Bench being ta-
ken, the Chief Baron only was for the judgment of the
King^s Bench, the reft againft it. There wefe nine Lords
in the House, on hearing the repeal. Of these the Lord
Chancellor and Lord Camden spoke fdr reversing the judg-
ment, and the Bishop of Ely with the Lords Northing-^
ton land Sandys, were of the same opinion ; so that there
were five to four for reversing the judgment of the King's
Bench; and yet by some unaccountable miftake the Chan-
cellor decliared it wasafiirmed. His Grace after ftating this
accident to the House, with great candour and modefty, sub-
mitted the consideration bf the remedy to their Lordships.
The Lord Chancellor acknowledged the fafts as his Grace
had ftated them, he lamented the miftake, biit exculpated
hin;iself, by insisting that it was no, more his business than
that of > any other Lord to call for a division. He said^
whatever the world might think, it would have been art ex-
cess of idiotism in him to decide againft his own opinion, i^
he knew the majority was with him.
The Earl Gower lamented the transaftion in terms of gl^t
propriety, but conceived a remedy impracticable, as the par-
ticular case could not be re-considered;
The Duke of Chandois informed their Lordships, that
he moved to affirm the judgment. He said, he tvas en-
couraged to give an opinion in thfe cause, froih Lbrd Cam-
den's having declared, that it was a question on which the
lay Lords were very competent to decide. He felt no wish
to have carried the queftion by indirect means, but lamented
what had happened, and the more so that he remembered an
inftance in which the decision was againft the judgment of
other Lords and of himself, tho' they were witheld by diffi-
dence from insisting on their opinions. For the future, he
said, he Was determined no such thing should happen.
The Lord Camden re-ftated the argument he dieUve^ed
when the point was agitated. He said, tliat having declar-
ed his opinion in his place, it was less incumbent on him
to call for a division, which was seldom or never his prac-
tice, as it might wear the appearance of party, which bught
never to interfere in judicial questions. Tlio* he felt and
lamented 'the hardship of the particular case, yet he profes-
sed his incapacity to suggest a remedy on the sudden; but
thought it worthy the attention of every Lord to turn it in
, Vol. IL M his
i6a PARLIAMENTARY' A\ 177^,
his mind; that right, if possible, might be done in the par-
ticular case, and some regulation adopted to prevent th^-
possibility of such an accident for the future.
The Lord Mansfield now interposed, with that di£):atorial '
authority, which the usual infallibility of his opinion^ his
weight with the House, and the favour of the King so
" justly inspire. He told them it was of infinite importance,
that they ihould hold out to the public, clearness of decision, ,
that the moment the word ajfirm came from the tvroolsack,
it was incumbent on every Lord to maintain the decisiony
for the honour of the House, and the quiet of the publico
that even the Lords who diffired in opinion, were bound,
from that moment, to bury and forget their opinions in fa»*
\o\xt of the general authority. He reprobated, the very
idea of rehearing causies; and said, upon memory, that, ia
the case of one Fitzgerald, during the Queen's tjme, snch
' an attempt had been made, by Lord Harcourt, whose mind
was uneasy under a determination in which he had acquiseced*
But the proposition was over-ruled by a majority after full
debate, in which Lord Bathurst, the present Chancellor's
father, took a great lead. He thought the present case was
not likely to be so bad as it seemed, for he had happened to
talk privately and confidentially with one of the Lords who
was supposed to be againft the judgment as it now ftood>
and had altered his opinion in twenty-four hours after the
determination. He concluded with imposii^g silence oh the
subjedl.
The Lord Wycombe [Earl of Shelburne] agreed with the
tioble Lord who spoke last, in the transcendent importance
of maintaining fhe reputation, weight, and consequently the
authority of the House, as the. supreme court of judicature.
He said, religion and law were the two great pillars of so-
ciety. That he was sorry to see the former losing daily
much of its influence, that a subtle metaphysical spirit of
refinement had crept in, and made writers, countenanced,
he feared, by nx.i in high station,^ use the words religion and
prejudice as synoni'mous. With regard to the law, what ^
had fallen from many Lords, was exceedingly alarming.
One erroneous judgment stated by a noble Duke, and ac-
knowledged by the House; another referred to by his Grace
of Chandois: the fluftuation of judgment by private con-
ference, f6 which Lord Mansfield had alluded; must hold
out an alarming and uncomfortable pidhlre to the public*
For thirty years Lord Hardwicke presided at the head of
the lawx without a doubt arising of the wisdom and inte-
grity .
A.177S- D E B A T E Si i6j
grity of the decisions in the courts of juftice. But since
that time, a certain difBdence had been gradually rising, till
at length it walked abroad in open day. Every Lord, he
said, must have felt with him, the importunity of suitors, in
consequence of these doubts. Every one muft have observed
that publications of a very extraordinary nature were fre-
quent; publications which would not be called libels, with-
out the cruelty of depriving men injured, as in the present
case, even of the miserable consolation of complaint. He
.observed, that the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, in
giving his opinion two years ago, had hinted at an over sub-
telty and love of innovation having found its way into
Weftminfter Hall. For these reasons ne felt it his duty not
to let the matter remain exadUy where the noble Lord, who
spoke laft, desired it. might reft, but wished tq bring the
House back to what had fallen with so great propriety from
Lord Camden, and to recommend it to, or rathei- call up-
on Lords of more ability, to turn in their minds, whether
if right could not be done in the particular case, -some
means might not be devised to prevent it in future. The
law Lords in particular, Jhe thought, owed this to their own
.deputation, as well as to the House and to the public;
that the charafter of that asgembly might not be sulhed
with suspicion, and the confidence of the people in the su-
preme court of judicature, shaken. For he would venture
to prophecy, that if such suspicions got abroad, and became
prevalent, it would shock, not. only the adminiftration oi the
day, but the very foundations of government itself.
The Duke of Richmond Summed Up the Whole that had
been said, with greaf precision and ability, and concluded
with wishing' some.rehef might be devised for the present
complaint, with a proper provision againft the same accident
. happening again. .„ .
May 22k
The order of the day, to consider of a petition, praying a
re-hearing or revision of the judgment given by the House,
relative to the advowson of Mottlsfont, in the county of
Southampton, aiffirming a judgment in erjor pronounced by
the court of King's Bench*
The Duke of Richmond moved to have the petition read,
which being complied with, bis Grace then ' moved, that
a committee be appointed to enquire into the triie ftate of
the contents and non-contents, and report their opinion
thereon to the House.
• M2 *raf.
1(^4 PAR LI A M E N T A ft Y ^,f77^
The Lord Chancellor moved, that the petition might be
^rejected; he observed, that he had put the question in the
usual manner ; that no Lord present demanded a division, .
i^-om whence he concluded, that the House Wis bound to do
the same ; that the Lords of an opinion contrary to what
he pronounced acquiesced in what he' said; that if this
Vas not so taken, there was an end of all the modes of the
proceeding ; for this reason he moved that the petition might
be rejefted.
The Duke of Richmond. I am aware of the numerous
difficulties, which present themselves, to obstru£t a compli-
ance' with the present intended motion ; but nevertheless,
' I think it my duty, as" a member of this House, to do every
thing in my power to preserve your Lordships' judgments
imsmlied and unquestioned, and to forward substantial
justice in the most direft and satisfaftory manner. The ques-
tion now before your Lordships, is not whether the decision
was, or was not, a wise one, or consonant to the legal and
equitable construction of wills; but whether it was in
truth the genuine sense of the House. It may indeed be
objeAed, that any revision or rehearing of this business may .
be of the most fatal consequence^ as letting in evils which your
Lordships would neither be able to correft or limit. I fore-
see those inconveniencies, and feel the force of the argu-
ments that may be built on them, as strongly as any noble
Lord in this Housjfe; but it is because, in my opinion, the
present proposed enquiry can establish. no precedent, and
that we are stridtiy warranted, by the orders of the House,
that I presume to trouble your Lordships on the occasion.
The two principal points I take to be these : It has been
discovered, since the judgment was pronounced, that out of
nine Peers present, five of them were for the reversal, and
four against it. But says the noble Lord on the woolsack,
who just now spoke, the question being put in the usual
form, three or four noble Lords signified their dissent, while
those for the motipn remained silent: therefore, says the
learned Lord, ** I was justified in declaring, that the non-
contents had it 5 and when no person 0]ffered to divide the
House, to pronounce in favour of the respondent in error."
I grant what the noble and learned Lord offers to be ex-
tremely just; but at the same time, if ij: should cofne out
that a majority were for the motion of reversal, I trust your
Lordships, on this occasion, will have recourse to the only
regular mode of taking the sense of the House, which is for
the learned Lord on the woolsack to stand up uncovered,
and
A. 1775. DEBATES. 165
and begin with the youngest Baron, and so proceed to take
the -opinion of every Lord present, sereatim. What I pro*
pose is not contrary to precedent, for no longer ago than
1733, a petition was presented, praying for the re-hearing
of a cause, setting forth, that the nephew of an appellant,
who appealed in his name, was not interested. That posi-
tion, my Lords, was referred to a committee to consider the
facts stated, they reported unfavourably to the petitioner, the
man was ordered into custody but ran away, and there the
matter ended; proving however sufficiently that there was
nothing contrary to your orders in admitting repetition
praying for a re-hearing. In the House of Commons, where ^
order is not in other matters so strictly adhered to, the Speak- '
cr, when he comes to put the' question, says, after repeating
it, ** As many are of that opinion, -say aye'j^ and then
makes a rest, and. again says, " As' many as are of a
contrary opinion, say no ;" and a second, or a third time,
if the sound be doubtful \ by which formality, the parties
have time to prepare for the division ; whereas, by the man*-
ner of putting the question in this House, should it happen
to be complicated, by amendments or otherwise, your Lord**
ships may be surprised into a judgment manifestly contradic-
tory to the sense of the majority. I will not pretend to de-
cide how f^ that might have been . the case in the present
instance 5. but sure I am, your Lordships will never rest
satisfied till this point is fully cleared up. I do therefore
move, that a committee be appointed to enquire into the
two petitions now read, and report their opinion thereon to
the House,
The Egrl of Hillsborough. I was present in the House, and
spoke to the question ; and, upon my own knowledge, con-
firm every syllable asserted by the noble Lord on the wool-
sack to be literally and substantially true. However, all the
circumstances of that day, now so much relied on, come to
nothing, when I inform your Lordships, that I had it this
day from the noble Lord, who it is contended would not
have voted, that he positively meant to vote, and to have
divided against the question, for affirming the judgment in
error. And I beg leave to repeat again, that I heard thre^,
if not four, non-contents, and to the best of my recollec-
tion, not one content. This being the true state of the case,
my Lords, how does the matter really stand ? On the old
ground, that no question was ever put in this House more
regularly, nor more fairly carried ; and on the new ground
taken up by ^he petition on your Lordships' table, that instead
" M 3 of
x66 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
t)f five to four, there were ten Lords present, five for, and
five against ; therefore the question was lost, the mover al-*
ways requiring a majority.
The Earl of Northtngton. I- shall just trouble your Lord-
ships with a short state ■ of the question. The advowson, ,
which it is determined, passed by the will of the late Sir -
Bryan Broughton Delves, being sold by his lady, the sup-
posed devisee, under the said will, to the respondent in er-
ror, Mr. St. John, a suit at law was instituted by the heir at
law, or his presentee ; and the matter being tried at Win-
chester assizes, the jury found a verdict for the presentee J
It was, however, solemnly argued in the Common Pleas,
/ where the verdict was confirmed. From thence the respon-
dent moved the cause by writ of error into the King's Bench,
where he obtained judgment ; on which the appellant in er-.
ror appealed to the wisdom and justice of this House.
What was your Lordships' conduct on this occasion } Why,
as two courts, I will venture to say equally respectable, had
diflered, you very properly desired the attendance of the Ba-
rons of the court of Exchequer, in order, as it was understood
at the time, to be finally determined by their opinions.
Three of them accordingly attended, the other being absent
. by illness. The Chief Baron was for affirming the judgment
in error, the two Barons for the reversal : add to this, that
the learned Lord on the woolsack, to whose opinion your
Lordships are always ready to pay the deference it deserves,. and
■ another noble and learned Lord near me f Lord Camden] fol-
lowed the Barons in their opinions. I only repeat these cir-
cumstances to remind your Lordships of the true state of the
matter, previous to the determination : and all I have to say-
now to the allegations of the petition under consideration is,
that I testified my assent to the motion ; that I was preparing
to divide S that I was never more surprized in my life, than
when I heard the judgraent pronounced ; and, that I do not
recollect there were more than nine Lords in the House who
would vote, the other four having gone below the throne,
not chusing to diyide.
The Bishop of Ely. For my part, I afiirm, 1 did express
my assent, whether the noble Lord on the woolsack heard it,
or not ; and so far was I from being acquainted with the
truth of the transaction, that I was for a minute before I
knew that the question was carried against my opinion. As
soqn as I learned it was, I went to the noble Lord on the
woolsack and desired the mistake might be rectified, but was
to)d it was too late. As to what the noble Lord says of the
present
A 1775. DEBATES. 167
present opinion of another noble Lord, now absent, I con-
fess, that to the best of memoly, there were only nine re-
mained to vote,^the other four having retired behind the
throne ; and if any thing were wanting to confirm me in that
opinion, my eagerness .to divide, from my knowlege of the
true state of the contents, an4 not-contents, perfectly satisfy
me that it was so. Besides, I understood all along, that the
noble Lord now alluded to, never meant to give a vote on ei-
ther side.
The Earl of Hillsborough, It is not very usual, I believe,
in this House, when a noble Lord rises to assert a fact, to af-
terwards retain any doubt concerning it. I know there
were thirteen Lords present. ^I remember that tliree only of
them went behind the throne, and that ten remained in the
House; but however, aslny word will not be. taken, I will
appeal tb his Lordship's own words, which were delivered to
me by message this morning, and that messenger yo:ir Lord-
' ships' own clerk, whereby he assured me that he did intend
to vote, and would have divided against the motion. As to
what the rioble Lord might in conversation have said relative
to dividing or not dividing, it can signify but very fittle,
when opposed to his solemn assurance thus given ; and were
that to weigh, the noble Earl [Earl of Northington] assured
me himself, that he did not know whether he should have
voted, as he did not hear the arguments of council at
,the bar.
The Lord Mansfield. The merits of the present question
are in some measure removed off their true grouiid, and
are now decisive against the allegations stated in the petition.
Instead, therefore, of going into the propriety or impropriety
of receiving petitions for revisions and rehearings, the mat-
ter is stopped at the very' thresliold ; for it comes out di-
rectly, that there were ten Lords in the body of the House,
five for, and five against, consequently the motion must
have been lost, and the mover left in ;a giinority. But tho*
, the matter be thus of course disposed of, I cannot avoid say-
ing a word or two on the supposed foundation onSvliich the
. petition is built. How does the case stand in respect^of re-
hearings in general? Why, that the ecclesiastical courts,
and all matters connected with civil -law, admit of them.
From thence they have made their way into the court of
Chancery, and if anj prayer of this kind could be enter-
tainer here, it would and must be on the idea of equity.
. * M 4 This
i68 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
This House never took cognizance of causes in equity till
Lord Chancellor Bacon's time. This was always deemed
a court of law, in the dernier resort j in which the King
was supposed to preside with his Peers, and, assisted by the
judges of the realm, to expound, explain, and determine the
laws of the land, according to their true legal construction
and import, previous to the period I have now ajluded to.
But here, whatever the real jurisdiction of your Lordships
may be in matters of equity, there is an end of the ques-
tion at once. Thi§ is not a matter of equity, but mere law,
the determination of which must, in the instant the judg-
ment is pronounced, be ultimately final and irrevocable,
even against yourselves. Your Lordships' power is at an
end : the proceedings already had on it form at present
part of the law of the land. Your Lordships can no
more legally revoke the judgment now it is passed, than you
ph give one respecting a property which was jiever yet liti-
gated J for I am bold to affirm, that any order of this House
would now operate as well in one case as the other. I
have made it my business to enquire into the usual xpode
of proceeding on rehearings, and do not find, that any
have been granted since the rule . established in 1693, till
1733, nor since the time the noble Duke alluded to. I pcr^
ceive, that many applications of this nature have been made,
but the greater part of them have been as constantly reject-
ed, and not one of those granted ever prayed for a reheaidng
of a question of mere law ultimately decided. But, my
Lords, what would the reasons now set up lead us to ?r—
that certain Lords were present, and that they declined to
divide the House, though they were a majority. As welf,
In my opinion, might a petition be presented to reconsider
the proceedings of this House, when any of your Lordships
happened to be locked out on a division. Suppose, whi'cih
happened to be the case within these few weeks, any 6i
your Lordships should mistake the question, and divide oil
the ivrong side ; suppose, in the very instance I now allude
to, that tiie numbers had been equal, and that the noble
Lord, by going below the bar, itiste.ad of staying in the
House, had lost the question, would you permit his Lord-
ship to come in, some days after, to desire the same question
tp be again debated ? Suppose again, the tellers, through
mistake or design, had misreported the numbers, would yoii
consent to have the declared sense of the House set asido?
I remember to have hpard a matter of that sort upon one
of
A. 1775- D E B A T E S. KS9
of the greatest questions ever decided in this House : Lord
Bradford, being a remarkable fat man, the teller, after the
question was carried, said, that he counted him as ten, hj
which he gained the victory* . It is, indeed more probable
he might have told him as two ; but in. either event, it is
plain, the matter was not to be set right, after the sense
of the House was once regularly declared.
The Lord Chancellor, The noble Lord whose opinion
has been so much alluded to in this debate, I ^an, from my
certain knowledge^ affirm, was sitting in th^ body of the
House, on one of the middle benches, at the instant the
question was put, and had not then retired behind the
throne.
The Duke of Richmond. I have been to speak with the
appellant at the bar, and he seems satisfied, by what has
passed this day, that the numbers in the House were equal ;
he desires, . therefore, to withdraw his petition, and decline
giving your Lordships any fiirther trouble.
May 23.
The House resolved itself into a committee, on the bill
for amending and explaining the Speaker's warrant bilL
A trifling amendment was offered to be made to the first
enacting clause, on which the Earl of Sandwich observed,
as there were no facts proved at their Lordships bar to sub-
stantiate the allegations set forth in the preamble, it was
impossible their Lordships could longer entertain the bill,
consistent with their own rights and the usual established
modes of proceeding.
The Earl of Denbigh supported the bill ; contending, as
no punishment would be inflifted by the bill, but barely
with-holding the issuing of the writ during the recess, as
preparatory to fuller and more substantial proofs, no evi-
dence was necessary.
An altercation now. ensued between the two noble Lords,
till at length the Lord Chancellor rose, and treated the
House of Commons with great asperity 5 observing, among
other things, that the Commons had learned to treat the
Lords with a degree of disrespect and contempt that ought
not to be tamely borne, or let to pass without notice;
that in the present instance they had shewn the highest and
most unbecoming indignity; and for those reasons moved,
that the Chairman do now leave the chair. The debate now
became general, till at length Lord Sandys moved for a
conference. This gave a visibly turn to the appearance of
things.
lyo PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^,
The Duke of Manchester spoke against a hasty decisiosi
in- a matter of such a nicety and difficulty, and moved to have
the preamble and the first enacting clause of the bill read*
A doubt which was the proper mode of proceeding seemed
for some minutes to prevail, till Lord Abercorn moved, that
the Chairman do leave the chair, and report soihe progress \
which being agreed to, a resolution was then entered up^
that a conference be desired with the Commons, to know
the grounds of evidence they proceeded on, relative to the
amended bill for dire<^ing the Speaker to withhold makijig
out his warrant to the clerk of the crown, for issuing t
■writ for electing a burgess to serve in Parliament fpr the bo*
^ tough of Shafton, otherwise Shaftesbury, in the county of
Wilts.
May 24.
The House having yesterday agreed to send a message ta
the Commons, desiring to be informed on what grounds
they passed a bill for amending and explaining an act for im-
powering the Speaker, during the recess of Parliament, to
direct warrants to the clerk of the crown %o issue writs for
electing persons in the room of such, members as shall die,
$0 far as to prevent the issuing a writ, during the present re-
cess, for electing a burgess to serve in this present Parlia-
ment for the borough of Shaftesbury. The masters in chan-^
eery having delivered the said message, Mr. Holford ac-
quainted the House, that he had a paper in his hand con-
taining reasons delivered to him by the other House, which
he read accordingly. The purport of the reasons read by
the Master was, that they [the Commons] had appointed a
select committee to try and determine on a petition com-
plaining of an undue election and return for the said bo-
rough of Shaftesbury ; that in the course of the examina-
tion of witnesses before the committee, most notorious bribery
and corruption had been proved against a great number of
electors voting at the said election : that the session being
hearly terminated, and too far spent for the House .to take
cognizance of the fa6h, or make a full enquiry into the pro-
ceedings of their committee, so as to come to a final deter-
mination relative to the measures proper to be pursued against
the delinquents, had deferred the further consideration of
the affair till after the next recess ; and that in the mean
time thev had thought it expedient to pass a bill for prevent-
ing the . Speaker from issuing a writ, during the recess of
Parliament for Shaftesbury, till they should first take the
report of the committee into consideration.
Th
A. 1775. DEBATE S. 171
The order of the day was then moved for, to go into a
committee of the whole , House on the Speaker's warrant
bill J and a motion being made, that the contents of the
said written paper, with the minutes of the proceedings of
the select committee of the House of Commons, be referred
to the committee, Lord Scarsdale took the chair, and the
Lord Chancellor rose and observed, that the reasons now
transmitted by the House of Commons, accompanied by the
minutes of the proceedings 6f their seledl committee, were
sufficient to support the facts stated in the preamble of the
bill ; but that the motive for witliholding the writ, in the
words *^ it appears therefore improper and expedient to
issue any writ during the recess," still remained unsup-
ported by any fact or allegation in the bill. His Lordship
therefore moved to leave out those words, which being
agreed to, the House was ^gain resumed, and the amend-
ment proposed by his Lordship immediately reported.
No other public business.
May 26.
The King put an end to the session. See his Majesty
speech at the end of the iirst volume.
PETITIONS
[ 172 a
PETITIONS to the KING.
The following petition was delivered to the Earl of Dart-
moutli, January i8, 1775, to, be by his Lordship presented
to his Majesty.
To the Kin^s most excellent Majesty.
She petition of your Majestfs most loyal and dutiful yotfr an'-
dent subjects settled in the province of ^ebec*
Most humbly sheweth,
nrHAT we, upon the faith of your sacred Majesty*s royal
-*• proclamation, bearing date the seventh day ot Oftober^
which was in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred ^
and sixty-three, did come and settle ourselves in the said pro-r
vince, purchasing houses and lands, and carrying on extensive
trade, commerce, and agriculture, whereby the value iof the .
land and wealth of its inhabitants are more than doubled 5 dur-
ing all which time we humbly crave leave to say that we have
paid a ready and dutiful obedience to government, and have
lived in peace and amity with your Majesty's new subje^.
Nevertheless we find, and with unutterable grief presume to
say, that by a late act of Parliament, intitled, ^ An aft for
the more efFeftual provision for the government of the pro-
vince of Quebec in North America,' we are deprived of the
franchises granted by your Majesty's royal predecessors, and
by us inherited from our fore-fathers 5 that we have lost the
proteftion, of the English laws, so universally admired for
their wisdom and lenity, and which we have ever held in the
highest veneration, and in their stead the laws of Canada are
to be introduced, to which we are utter strangers, disgrace-
ful to us as Britons, and in their consequences ruinous to our
properties, as we thereby lose the invaluable privilege of trials
by juries. That in matters of a criminal nature the habeas
corpus act is dissolved, and we are subject to arbitrary fines
and imprisonment, at the will of the governor and council,
who may at pleasure render the certainty of the criminal laws
of no efFeft, by the great power that is granted to them of
making alterations in the same.
We therefore most humbly implore your Majesty to take
our unhappy state into your royal consideration, and grant
us
PETITIONS to the KINC. 173
us such relief as your Majesty in your royal wisdom shall
thiAk meet.
And your petitionert, as in duty bound, .will ever pay.
^uebecy l2/i JVbv. 1774.
Zac.Macaul^y,
John Aitkin,
John Patterson,
Rand. Meredith
John Lees,
John Welles,
S. Fargues,
T.Walker,
James Price,
John Blake,
Isaac Todd,
Alex.Paterson,
John Porteous,
John MCord,
Charles Grant,
Robert Woolsey,
Nicholas Bayard,
.Ci Le Marchant,
John I'ainter,
Thomas M^Cord,
Henry Grebassa,
Robert Willcocks,
Jolin Renaud,
Christy Cramer,
George Gregory,
Lewis Chaperon,
Frederick Petry,
James Cuming,
William Laing,
George Jenkins,
Francis Smith,
Alexander Wallace,
Richard Dobie,
George Measam,
Samuel Jacobs,
Nicholas Brown,
Michael Morin,
William Kay,
John Lilly,
John Sunderland,
p J. Grant,
|. James Morrison,
* James Sinclair,
y I John Chishohn,
3 James Jefiiy,
i Robert M^Fie,
_ Francis Atkinson,
•^ David Shoolbred,
I Jon. Clarke Minot,
I o Godfrey King,
r % John Land,
i.Cald)Thome,
J ? John Lees, junior,
Robert Jackson,
Hugh Richie,
Alexander Lawson,
Charles Daily,
Edw. Manwaring,
Michael Flanagan,
J. Melvi;i,
George Munro,
James Hanna,
Joseph Torrey,
T. Walker, junior,
James Dyer White,
John Bell,
Andrew M'Gill,
Samuel Holmes,
James Blake,
James Nod,
T. M*Murray,
Allan Paterson,
James Symington,
Abram Holmes,
JolmNeagle,
Peter Arholdi,
Daniel Robertson,
Alex. Milmine,
Thomas Fraser,
A. Porteous,
Joseph Ingo,
Adam Scott,
James Finlay,
Pat. M*Cle;nent,
William Pantree,
Jacob Bittez,
Leach Smith,
John Saul,
Francis Anderson,
Simon Fraser,
John Ross,
John M^Cluer,
James Woods,
John Lees,
Lemuel Bowles,
Thomas Davidson,
Patrick O^Donell,
Arch. Lawford,
Simon Fraser, jun.
Richard Vincent,
Daniel Cameron,*
James Galbraith,
RoderickM,^Leod,
JohnWhiteiSwift,
John Bonlield,
Wm. Callander,
David Geddes,
Samuel Morrison,
John Thomson,
Alexander Hay,
James Doig,
Joseph Bindon,
Andrew Hayes,
George Sirgl jton,
John, Stonhouse,
John Kay,
D. Salesby Frank^
J. Richardson, jun.
James Loach,
Ezekiel Solomons,
James
^74 P'E T I T
James Perry,
J.JSeck,
Law. Ermatinger,
Simon MTavish,
J'. Pullman,
James Frazer,
G. Young,
William Ashby,
Gavin Loiu-ie,
Ptdll. Brickman,
Benjamin Holbom,
Joseph Borrel,
John Connolly,
John Durocker,
B. lapis,
J. Joran,
Jacob Maurer,
Simeon Lfevy,
Edward Chinn,
Richard M^Neall,
R. Cruickshanks,
IONS to the KIJ^G.
John Comfort,
Adam Wentsel,
AdamM^Farlain, 4
J. Vander Heyden,
Hinr. Gonnerman,
John Hare, junior,
G. Wright Knowles,
Benj. Forbisher,
William Murray,
James Anderson,
John Trotter,
Christopher Chron,
William England,
Meshach I.eeng,
Thomas Boyd,
John Mittleberger,
S. Mittleberger,
Isaac Judah,
Peter M^Farlane,
James May, ^
Jacob Scieffelin,
Benaiah Gibby
J. George Walk, '
Michael Phillips,
C. Dumoulin,
Francis Dnmbvlin^
Duncan Cummin^f ;
WilliamHaywoodj
Robert MCay,
James Robinsoc^
Jean Bernard,
Lazarus Davids
P. Bouthillier„
Richard Walker, .
Josiah Bleakley,
Aaron Hearty
Levy Solomonsji
Alexander Fr^iser,
Malcolm Frascr,
J. M^Cord, jimior,
Henry Dunn.*
f
When the New-England restraining bill had passed the
Hpuse of Lords, the committee of merchants of Lolldon
deputed three of their body, Messrs. Lane, MoUeson, and
Bridgen, to present the following petition to his Majesty
against it. .
To the King^s most excellent Majesty.
The humhle address and petition of the merchants^ traders^ and
others of the city of London^ concerned in the commerce of Norths
America.
We your Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the mer-
chants, traders, and others, concerned in the commerce of
North- America, beg leave to approach and humbly to lay be-
fore your Majesty those grievances, from the weight of which
we are obliged to seek refuge in your royal wisdom and justice.
An application of this extraordinary nature, we hope will
not be attributed to any design on our part to disturb your
Majesty's government, but to out present uncommon sufier**
ings, the severity of which is aggravated by the prospect of
future calamities. • .
• We
* The petition to the House of Lords and to the House Qf
Commons wtvQ signed by the same persons*
PETITIONS to the KING. 175
"We are constrained, with very deep concern, to observe,
that the ministers of your Majesty have, for some years past,
adopted a new mode of government, with regard to the colo-
nies ; a mode which has created great disquietude in the
minds of your Majesty's American subjects, and has been
produdtive of repeated interruptions of the valuable commerce
carried on between this country and America. An evil of
such magnitude awakes us from that silence which we have
hitherto observed, in confidence that your Majesty's ministers,
perceiving the effefts of this fatal innovation, would revert
•at length to those wise regulations by which the government
of the colonies had been successfully administered. In the
measures of late pursued, we have the unhappiness to find
that experience has been disregarded; and that the mischief
resulting from this error, which by the application of seasons-
able and moderate remedies might have been prevented, have
been suffered to grow to a degree of alarming inveteracy.
The interruption of commerce, the distress of manufiaiturers,
the diminution of your Majesty's revenue, are mischiefs
which are lost in the contemplation of more disastrous con-
sequences, the alienated affections of your Majesty's subjects
In America, and the horrors of a civil war.
If the subjedls of your Majesty in North America have
been led into any adls of extravagance, we confide in your
Majesty's justice to explain their present proceedings by that
loyalty which has distinguished them upon former occasiops-
Your Majesty will estimate their conduct by the integrity of
their intentions; and if they have been betrayed by repeated
provocation, or excessive punishment, into any measures which
may not approved, your Majesty will impute theni to their
true cause, and will make a just distin<Siion between the
turbulence of a faftion, and the eager contentions of a free
people.
To inforce this system of severity towards the colonies,, an '
aft has been passed by both Houses of Parliament, and is jiow
awaiting your Majesty's royal assent; * to restrain the tradc-
ahd commerce of the province of Massachuset's Bay and .Wev
Hampshire, and colonies of Connefticut and Rhode Island,
and Providence plantation in North America, to Great. Bri-^
tain, Ireland, and the British islands in the West Indies?, and
to prohibit such provinces and colonies from carrying o:a any
fishery on the banks of Newfoundland, &c.'
By the operation of this aft, many thousanfls of you r Ma-
jesty's subjefts in those provinces, bereft of their occuj nation,
and in vain desirous of exerting their usual industry, will
s '^ . • either
t^6 PfeTITlONS to the KING.
cither remain a burthen on the community, or suffer them^
selves to be hurried away by a spirit of enterprizing despaii*.
The loss they will svstain by the interruption of so valuable a
branch of their commerce, will be aggravated by the want
of provisions which they derive from that source. Their
minds already too much irritated, will be still more inflamed|
and to their other causes of discontent will be added the
strong and irresistible impulse of famine. So forcible an in-
centive, it is scarcely to be supposed that human nature can
withstand. The most moderate will at length give way to the
impatience of complaint ; the mpst loyal will forget their
duty, in the severe conflift of obedience and necessity.
We are sensible indeed, from the imperfeft institution o£
human judicatures, that it is not possible in all cases to dis-*
criminate the innocent from the guilty. But no argumetits,
in our apprehension, can justify a mode of punishment that
involves thousands, who confessedly are not guilty of the
offence for which it is inflicted ; a punishment that is not to
be averted by the future deportment of the unfortunate per-
sons who are the innocent viiSlims of it, but which miy be
entailed upon them for ever, by the persevering resistance of
their neighbours.
The .impolicy of this aft, we apprehend, will afford an
argument no less weighty to induce your Majesty to withold
your assent from it. It must be admitted, if the European
market could be supplied by the merchants of Great Britain
or Ireland, that it cannot be supplied upon the same terms,
and consequently that it will create an opening for the French
to interfere and rival us in that beneficial commerce. Nor
can it be ur^r,ed that they are prevented from so doing by the
limits to whifh their fishery is confined; for it is not in^ro-
bable but that they may take a sufficienty quantity of fish
within their own limits to supply the European market; and
even if that were not the case, they would undoubtedly eficft
it by other means. Whatever reliance may be placed in theory
upon the invisible lines drawn by treatry, as the boundaries
of the right of fishery, we are well acquainted by experience, .
how easily those limits are eluded or transgressed. But if this
profitable branch of trade should be once interrupted, it will
be as a river diverted from its course ; and will either lose
itself entirely, or wander into new channels, from whence no
human effort can recall it.
Wc therefore most humbly pray your Majesty to withhold
your t oyal assent from an aft, which is no less repugnant to
good jwlicy than justice. We acknowledge the many bles-
<. sings
ESTiTIONS to ikt KING. trf
Ssxgi vlikh we and our asiccston lurve .oijoyed under the
princes of your Majesty^B atiostrious house ; and fecUng aA
unfeigubd satis£i&ion in the paternal regard which your Ma-
jesty has repeatedly expressed for tkenpelfare and happineft
of all your sobjedkS) with the greater confidence we intreat the
exertion of that just and necessary prerogative, which the
constitution has wisely pkced in your Majesty^s luuids. Perw
mit 116 at.thc same time to express our wishes, that your M*-
jesty msfy temper with clemency those rigorous measures with
which your American subjefts are threatened. The benevo-
fence of yonr Majesty will inspire you upon this occasion with
a recoHedtion of the high deserts^of the ancestors of this mii-
fbrtunate people ; who iljing fiaom the house of bondage, and
guided by the spirit of nvedcoi axui their own enlightened
conscience^ traversed the vast ocean, ind encountered all the
perils of a dreary wilderness. • .•
Your Msljesty will contemplate likewise the extensive be-
nefits gradually derived firom their patient industry and pefi-
severance; and weighing the great commercial sidvantagea
that for many years have accrued to these kingdoms from die
American colonies, and the- dreadful consequences of the
disorders which now distra^ them, will pursue such lenient
.measures as can alone restore tniie harmony, and promote the
happiness and prosperity of the British empire.
The following petition of the People called Quakers, was
also presented to his Majesty, by four respeftable persons of
their body.
To George the Tkird^ king cf Great Britain and the dominions
thereunto hekn^ng.
The address and petition of the people called Quakers.
May it please the King !
Gratefully sensible of the protedlion and indulgence we
enjoy under thy government, and with hearts full of anxious
concern for thy happiness, and the prosperity of this great
•empire^ we bcgleav&to approach thy royal presence.
' Prompted by the affedion we bear to our brethren and
fellow ^ubjedbs ;' impressed with an apprehension of calamities
in- which -the whole British empire may be involved ; and
movcfd by an ardent desire to promote thy royal intention of
^eiS)^ a hsjppy reconciliation- with thy people in America,
we beseech thy gracious regard to our petition.
- > Firoift^thdinieraofirse riibsisting between «& and our brethren
^abrosid^ ft^the ad-^atweirteiiB frf piety and virtue, we are pcr-
s(«rtd6d[ thietft atfe not in tidy extensile donSihions, subjeAs
VMd€hiff&:^mi:jai^ person,
Vol. IL N JtW%'. tk^
178 PETITIONS to the KING.
thy family, and government, than in the provinces of AnuN
rica, and amongst all religious denominations.
. 'We presume not to justify the excesses committed, nor to
enquire into the causes which may have produced them, but
influenced by the principles of that religion which procbiims
* peace on earth and good will to men,' we humbly beseech
thee to stay the sword ; that means may be tried to eficct
without bloodshed, and all the evib of intestine war, a firm
and lasting union with our fellow subjects in America.
Great and arduous as the task may appear, we trust men
may be foimd in this country, and in America, who, pro-
perly authorized, would, with a zeal and ardour becoming an
object so important, endeavour to compose the present difie-
rences, and establish a happy and permanent reconciliation, on
that firm foundation, the reciprocal interest of each part of
the British empire.
, That the Almighty, by whom kings reign, and princes de<-
cree justice, may make thee the happy instrument of perpe-
tuating harmony and concord through the several parte of thy
extensive dominions; that thy clemency and ms^gnaniniity
may be admired in future generations, and a long succession
of thy descendants fill, with honour to themselves, and hap-
piness to a grateful people, the throne of their ancestors,, is
the fervent prayer of thy faithful subjects.
The Address, remonstrance, and petition of the city of
London, to the King, April lo, 1775-
To the King's most excellent Majesty.
The humble address^ remonstrance^ and petition of the Lofxl
Mayor y aldermen^ and livery of the city ^ London^ in common^
hall assembled.
We your Majesty's dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lord
Mayor, aldermen, and livery of the city of London, beg
leave to approach the throne, and to declare our abhorrence
of the measures which have been pursued, and are now pur-
suing, to the oppression of our fellow subjects in America.^
These measures are big with all the consequences which can
alarm a free and commercial people. A deep and perhaps
fatal wound 10 commerce-, the ruin of manufactures; the
diminution of the revenue, ai^i consequent increase of taxes \
the alienation of the colonics J tind the blood of your Majesty's
subjects.
But your petitioners look with less horror at the ccmse-
quences, than at the purpose of those measures. Not deceived
iy the specious artifice of calling despotism, dignit^fi thiqr
pl^hdj perceive, that the real ourpose is, to estahlisharbitraqr
/wfwer over 401 America.
PitlTlONS tothe KING. 179
* T<)ur petitioners conceive the Kberties of the whole to be
inevitably connected with those of every part of an empire
founded on the common rights of mankind. They cannot
therefore observe, without the greatest concern and alarmi
the constitution Amdamentally violated ih any part of your
Majesty's dominions. They esteem it an essential, unalter-
able principle of liberty, the source and security of all constitu-
tional rights— that no part of the dominion can be taxed with-
out being represented. Upon this great leading principle,
they most ardently wish to see their feUow subjects in America
secured in what their humble petition to yotir Majesty prays
for, peace, liberty, and safety. Subordination in commerce,
under which the colonies have always chearfiiUy acquiesced,
is, they conceive, all that this country ought in justice to re-
quire. From this subordination such advantages flow, by all
the profits of their commerce centering here, as fuUy com-
pensate this nation for the expence incurred, to which they
also contribute in men and money for their defence and pro-
tection during a general war ; and in tli^ provincial wart
they have manifested their readiness and resolution to defend
themselves. To require more of them would, for this rea-
son, derogate from the justice and magnanimity which have
been hitherto the pride and character of this country.
It is therefore with the deepest concern, that we have seen
the sacred security of representation in their assemblies wrested
(rotn them, the trial by jury abolished, and the odious powers
of excise extended to all cases of revenue j the sanctuary of
their houses laid open to violation aft the will and pleasure of
every officer and servant in the customs j the dispensation of
justice corrupted, by rendering their judges dependent for
their seats and salaries on the will of the crown ; liberty and
life rendered precarious by subjecting them to be dragged over
the ocean, and tried for treason or felony here ; where the dis-
tance, making it impossible for the most guiltless to maintain
his innocence, must deliver him up a victim to ministerial ven-
geance ; soldiers and others in America have been instigated to
shed the blood of the people, by establishing a mode of trial
which holds out impunity for such murder. The capital of
New England has been punished with unexampled rigour, im-
triied and unheard, involving the innocent and the suspected in
on6 common and inhumftn calamity j chartered rights have
been taken away, without any forfeiture proved, in order to
deprive thife people of every legal exertion against the tyranny
of their rulers— the Mifo/ carpus act, and trial by jury, have
been suppressed; and French despotic government, with the
N a Romao
i^^ PETITIONS to the KING.
Ropoan Catholic religipn, have been established by law over
an extensive parf of your I^jest/s dominions in Aqierica ^
dutiful petitipns for redress of those grievances, from all your
A(Ujesty's American subjects, have been fruitlsss.
To fill up the measures of these opjmsssions, an army has
been sent to enforce them.
Superadded to thi^, measures are now planned upontlic
most merciless policy of starving pur fellow subjects inkp 9
total surrender of their liberties, and an unlimited gulmus-
sion to arbitrary government.
These grievances have driven your Majesty's fiutfafiil
subjects to despair, and compelled them to have recour^
to that resistance which is justified by the gteat principle^
c^ the constitution, actuated by which, at thie glorious per
riod of the Revolution, our ancestors transferred the imperii
crown of these realms from the Popish and tyrannic race of
the Stuarts to the illustrious and Protestant House of Bni|is-
wick.
Your petitioners are persuaded, that these measures origi-
nate in the secret advice of men who are enemies equally
to ypur Majesty's title and to the liberties of yonr peo{^
That your Majesty's minbters carry them into execution
by the same fatal corruption which has enabled them to
wound the peace and violate the constitution of this coun-
try — thus they poison the fountain of public security, and
render that body which should be the guardian of liboty^ a
formidable instrument of arbitrary power.
Your petitioners do therefore most earnestly beseech your
Majesty to dismiss immediately, and for ever, from your coun-
cils, those ministers and advisers, as the first step toinrards a
full redress of those grievances which alarm and afflict your
whole people. So shall peace and commerce be re^ored, and
the confidence and affection of all your Majesty's subjects be
the solid supporters of your throne*
The Kings answer.
It is with the utmost astonishment that I find any of my
subjects capable of encouraging . the rebellious disposition
which unhappily exists in some of my colonies in Ncntb
America.
Having entire confidence in the wisdom of my Parlisunentu;
the great council of the nation, I will steadily poif^^^' th^ne-
measures which tiiey have recouunoided for. thi^ Stti9M %f
the constitutional rights of Great Britain, and the j^pUg^cm
of the commercial interests of my kin|fdoms.
' ' \SSt
A
..^
L IS T;
Of the most material A(?rS pa^(5d te ffiiSLSe^
N act to allow the impcjrtatidn of lixdklii tdrti.
-^fbr duty oil ttiait, cyder, &c.
— -liwid tax 2Sr
-r— for regulafioh df tiiarines.on ^hpfe. '
• — to repeal an iict pfev^tihg the expbrtatibh of wool
cards.
— to punish iriiltjny arid d^ertioii.
—-for the importafibn of Irish provisions and potatoes^
— for pay and cloathirig the militia.
—-to restrain the trade and commeree of the provin-
ces of Massachusetts Bay and New Rampshirey
and colonies of ' Connecticut ind Rhpc^e Island^
and Providence Plantation in North America, to
Great Britain, Ireland, and the British islands in
the West Ind!^; and to prohibit such provin-
ces and colonies fi-om carrying on- any fishery on
the banks of Newfoundland, or other places therein
mentioned, under certain conditions arid limita-
tions.
— ^to enable the commissioricrs to charge further taxes
for draining Bedford Level.
— ^for the relief and employment of the poor in Nor-
. folk.
— ^to explain an act for preventing combinations and
abuses in journeymeri dyers, &e. &c. &c.'
— to punish mutiny and desertion in America.
— to indemnify persons omitting to qualify.
—to restrain the trade and commerce of the colonies
of New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia,
and South Carolina, to Great Britain, Ireland,
and the British islands in the West Indies, under
pertain conditions and limitations.
— ^for relief and employment of the poor in Mary-
bone, Middlesex.
— ^for building offices in Lincoln's Inn.
—for building a coimty gaol at Hertford.
—for appointing commissioners of land tax.
—for admeasuring waggons used in loading coals on
board ships..
. N3 An
C x8a 3
An act for reviving an act relative to the Mac Gr^prs of
Scotland.
^for giTOig fees ttf an officer to stamp weigtits. for
gold.
— ;— — to,rq)eal an act against erecting cottages.
-^— ^^— ^for settling Buckingham House with tiie amnirte?
nances upon the Queen, in case she $hap survive his
Majesty, in lieu of his MzyeslV s palace of l^omeiW
House; selling Ely House in Holbourn, and apply-
ing the money in building public offices in Somerset
House, and embanking the Thames within the
bounds of the Savoy.
^for lowering the duties on rape seed.
-for the importation of goat skins.
— ^not to issue a new writ' of election for Shaftesbury.
■ t o charge imported painted earthen ware with a duty.
■ ■ ' — ^to raise a sum of money by exchequer bOIs.
— -^^^ — -to enable justices of the peacj^ to admWster oaths.
— : — for a lottery.
• for granting a sum of mon^ out of the sinking fund.
: to continue an act obliging the East Indi^ company.
to export a certain value 6f the manufactures of
Great Britain.
— '-7-for clothing the troops in Ireland and granting a
bounty on flax-seed imported into Ireland.'
-for licensing a play-house at Manchester,
-ale duty in Scotland.
-to restrain promissary notes of small sums,
-for the universities of England, Scotland, and the
colleges of Westminster, Eaton, and Winchester,
to hold in perpetuity their copy-right in books.
THE
Parliamentary Regifter;
.OR,
HISTORY
OF TH£
PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATES
OF THE
HOUSE OF COMMONS ;
CONTAINING AN ACCOUNT OF
The moid: interefting Speeches and Motions ; accurate G>pies
of the moft remarkable Bills, Letters and Papers^
pf the most material Evidence, Petitions, &c»
laid before and offered to the House,
DVIllNO TBE
Second Session of the Fourteenth Parliament
OF
GREAT BRITAIN.
U 1. ^. ..» . J
Y. ^' A 7 ;' ■• : • -
H IS TO R Y
OF THE
PROCEEMNGS AND DEBATES
Of the SECOND SESSION of the
...■•■ • • i. • ..;■•■!■• . 1 . • • ' .
HOUSE O F COM MO 1^ &
OF.' YHfi "' '''•^■' ■ ■
fourteenth Parliaifnent otCreat-Briiqifi* ',
• • ■ . • . ■. • . I ' ■ "■ • "*
Appointed to toati at VTestnunster, .Qfi Thursday the ^6tk ()a3r cjf *
OctffbtTy I7J5« • , * • ^
* ■ ■ ' • . ' ■ » ■ ,
THHE King Scirig oA the throfte m the Hckisc of Pedf*,;
X and the Commons atteifding, his M^e^ operted ibt
session with a speech.
The Commons being returned to their own Hotrse, xif^
Speaker informed thcni, he had (to prevent tmstake^ .<lbr
tained a copy rf h& Majesty's spcJech,- which hA' |ta* di'
follows:
MyLords^ and Getttlemeni
The present sitttation of America, and niy constant desnid'
to have your advice, condrrrence, and assistance on every
important . occasion^ have determined me to call yon thui
early together. ^ '
Those who have !on^ too successfnHy laboured to inflame
my people in America by gross misrepresentations,- and to in-^
fine into- their mmdsra system of opinions repugnant to the
tme consfittrtion of thfe colonies, andfo their siibordin*e re-
lation to CJreati-EfritainV now, bpafd^ avo^ thefr revolt, hos-
tJKty, aikd liebdBJon. TheyJftrv^ raised troops, and arc col-'
iefflSng ahsWal fortfe; theyfev*^ 4ci«ed the puMc revenue,
and assumed to themselves legislative, executive, andjtxdiciai
powers, which they already exercise, in the most arbitrary
mannerii
ii6 PARLIAMENTARY A.t7JS^
manner, over the persons and properties of their fellow-
sobjefts : and although many of these unhappy people may
still retain their loyalty, and may be too wise not to see the
fatal consequence of this usurpatiptly and wish to resist h, yet
the torrent of violence has been strong enough to compel
their acquiescence, till a sufficient force shall appear to suj^
port them.
The authors' and promoters of this desperate conspiracf
have, in the conduct of it, derived great advantage from the
difference of our intentions and theirs. They meant only
to amuse by vague expressions of attachment to the parent
state, and the strongest protestatbiis of loyalty to me, whilst
they were preparing for a general revolt. On our part, tho*
it was dedared in your last session, that a rebcUion ei^sted
wttthin the province of the Massachuiet's Bay, yet even that
province we wbhed rather to reclaim than to subdue. The
resolutions of Parliament breathed a spirit of moderation an4
forbearance i conciliatory propositions accompanied the mea*
sure taken to enforce authority; and the coercive a6b were
adapted to cases of criminal combinations among subjects not
then in arms. I have aftcd with the same temper ; anxious
to prevent, if It had been possible, the effiision of the Hood
^ of my subjefb, and the calamities which are inseparable from
a state of war; still hoping that my people in America would
have discerned the traitorous views of their leaders, and have
been convinced, that to be a lubjeft pf Great-Britain, with
all its consequences, is to be the freest member of any civil
society in the known world.
The rebellious war now levied is become more general,
and is manifestedlv carried on for the purpose of establishing an .
independent empu*e. I need not dwell upon the fatal e&dl^
of the success of such a plan. The objedl is too important,
the spirit of the British nation too high, the resources with
which God hath blessed her too numerous, to give up so many
colonies, which she has planted with great ixidust^, nurse4
with great tenderness, encouraged with many comn^ercial
advantages, and protefted and drfended at much expcnce of
blood and treasure.
. It is now become the part of wisdom, and (in its efie^) '
of clemency, to put a speedy. end to thes^ disorders, by the
most decisive exertions. For this purpose, I ha ve encrease4
my naval establishment, and greatly augmented my land forces,!
but in such a manner as may he the least burt^enspme to my
kingdoms.
^havq
A. inSf DEBATES. 187
I have also the satisfaction to inform you, that I haye re-
fxived the most friendly offers of foreign assistance ; and if
I shall make any treaties in consequence thereof, they shall
bip laid before you* And I have, in testimony of my aSeftion
to my people, who have no cause in which I am not equally
^lterested, sent to the garrisons of Gibraltar and Port Mahon
a part of my eleftoral troops, in order that a larger number
or the established forces of this kingdom; may be applied to
the maintenance of its authority ^ and the national militia,
planned and regulated with equal regard to the rights, safety,
and protection of my crown and people, may give a farther
extent and activity to our military operations.
When the unhappy and deluded multitude, against whom
this force will be dire&ed, shall become sensible of their error,
I shall be ready to receive the misled with tenderness and
mercy : and in order to prevent the inconveniencies which
may arise from the great distance of their situation, and to
remove as soon as possible the calamities whicli they suffer, I
shall give authority to certain persons upon the spot to grant
general or particular pardons and indemnities, in such man-
lier, and to such persons, as they shall think fit, and to receive
the submission 01 any province or colony which shall be dis-
posed to return to its sdlegiance. It may be also proper to
authorise th^ persons so commissioned to restore such province
or colony, so returning to its allegiance, to the free exercise
of its tnde and commerce, and to the same protection and
security as if such province or colony had never revolted.
Gentlemen of the House of Commons^
I have ordcre4 the proper estimates for the ensuing year tO.
be laid before you; and I rely on your affeClion to me, and
your resolution to maintain the just rights of this country, for
i^uch supplies ^ jthe present circumstances of our affairs re-
quire. Among the many unavoidable ill consequences of this
rebellion, none zSo&s me more sensibly than the extraordi-
nary burthen which }t must create to my faithful subjefts.
My Lords an4 Gentlemen^
I have rotly. opened to you my views and intentions^ The
constant employment of my thoughts, and the most earnest
wishes of xpy heirt, tend wholly to the safety and happiness of
all my people, and to the re-establishipent of order and tran-
quillity through the several parts of my dominions, in a close
connection and cpnsdtutibnsil dependence. You see the ten-
ijency of the presei^t di$ordqrs, and I have stated to you the
ineasures which I mean to pursue for suppressing them. What-'
ever reipains to be done that may ferther contribute to this
J end,
iH PARllAMElffTAiiT A.'ijjii
cftd, t ^ofhffiit td your wisdom. And 1 arii Jiappy W aid,
that, is well from the assurances f have received, as doih fhg
general appearance of afiairs in Europe, 1 sec ho probdfailSty
mat th6 measures which you may adopt will be interhipted
hf disputes with any foreign power.
Mr. Arlland moved that an humble addt»ess be presented tO
his Majesty \ which motion he introduced with the folldwiag
speech :
When I consider the importance df the iubj(5abr<Wight mr-'
der our consideration by the King's most gracious spefeca ftpm
the throne, that on our firmness or indecision, the fiitmre fete
of the British empire and of ages yet uftborri will depcnit; .
when I behold the eyes of all Europe fixed on the temper and
first proceedings of this assembly, I cannot rise t^ithout fceU
irig tho inferiority of my own abilities, and dreading to sink'
toder a burthen I find myself almost unequal to beaf ;
feut if the kind indulgence of this houSe t^lfl stipfport mt^ 1
will beg its attention nut for a few moments, and then cdh-i
tlude with moving a dutiful address to the King,
Reflecfling, Sir, on the present situation of America, so
greatly altered since our last meeting, when 1 see her risblg
from her subordinate relation to this countfy, to the' nhdilf^
guised assertion of independence and empire ; wheri I at-
tempt to deduce the consequences that will thence ftow, not
cJInly to this country but to all Europe, I confess 1 Hind
amazed at the extent of the objeft. But, Sir, ho^cVer aWw
fill the situation of public aflfeirs may be, I hold it to be the
first duty of a great national assembly, deliberating on a great
national concern, not to despair of the republic ; fot i^ho*
ever. Sir, attentively examines the spirit of oppositioti thalt
has been so long fomenting in America, who tnices its cbtirse
from its origin to its present enormous height, through aH thc
various appearances under which artifice, p^sidfl, arid bi^
terest have alternately disguised it, must admit aS I diOj that tiA
reducing Arncrica to a just obedience to this country laSflOC
without its diiTiculties ; but he will conclude with me too, *
that where the interests of a great people ate coVicemed,. dif-
ficulties inn St be overcome not yielded t6i rior are thedifficul«»
ties superior to the strength of the nation that has to thtbtk^
ter them. Rccpjlc^l the strength, the resources, and abo^6 afi
the spirit of the British nation, which when rdused kno^ Hb
opposition ; let me remind you of those greiat, extensive aftdf Stoo*
cessful wars that this country has carried oh befcf 6 the eotofl-
nent of America was known; let me turn your attention to' fiat
period wficn you defended dxis vet'J ^e6^l<?;fi:o<adi^ attacks of
A*i.77S-^ i) E B A t t S. 1^9
the most powerful and valiant nation in Europe, when your
armies gave law, ^nd your fleets rode triumphant on every
coast. Shall we be told then, that this people, whose great-
ixess is the work of our hands, and whose insolence arises
from our divisions, who have mistaken the lenity of this
country for its weakness, and the reluctance to punish, for a
want of power (o vindicate the violated rights of firiti^ sulv
jeds \ shall we be told that such a people f:ai> resist the pow^
erfiil efforts of this nation.
The step$ hitherto taken by Parliament have been marked
by forbearance and moderation ; for though it was well known
that parts of Aaierica had been labouring to throw off the
authority of this country, yet so unwilling was Parliament to
exert its ari^s, that during the last session it continued to
proceed by the coercion of civil power, trusting that the in^
fatuation of the Ani^^icaus would at last cease, and the
sword mig]i( reiz\ain peaceful within its scabbard : but the
Americans reasoned differently ; they took advantage of pur
iadination to pea^ce to prepare themselves for war, and though
it was contended at our last meeting that New England waa not
then in a state of rebellion, it cannot now be contended that
America is not in a state of war. From the very beginning of
this quarrel the point in dispute between us has been perpetu-
ally fluftuating, and whatever the original contest might be, it
is now lost in a contest for independence and empire. That the
Americans have been long contending for independence, I be-
lieve I am not the only gentlemen in the House who is firmly
persuaded ; but now they hold a higher tone, presuming on a
supposed invincibility of strength, they speak a clearer language.
The cpngress, in their observ4tions on the conciliatory plan
offered by Parliament last year, triumphantly demand ^* what
right Britain has to interfere with her government, since dbc
does not interfere with that of Britain t" Is not this the lan-»
guage of an independent state ? ft i;5 a language that might
Mreil become France and Spain, but which cannot 1^ recon-
ciled, to apy idea of obedience from a colony to a mother
QOUQtiy, In the private intercepted correspondence of their
le^4^^> ^^ ^^^ them boasting ^^ of their labours in' mpdeliiag
a.nesf governmjentj raising, clothing and Subsisting a large -
^^rzny, creating a m^ine, and founding an extensivie ewpire '"
1})U. the^. actions st jjj|, more loudly declare their :iitf:enti0nd;
thiM^,ti|e^pro£sssiQUf .; theyhsiyerftiaedanarmy,thie]Fiire.creat-
i^g a^ mariaeji a^id th^ continental coz\gres$, u;idgr the assuaged
gc^eif €^ its own selfrCfe^edi as8e«ihly>h^:?e mvtsd, biUs on «o»r:
f$6 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177;.
tinental credit ; they have made war too, in aD its forms, on
the people of whom they would wish to be independent.
TTie question is now therefore reduced into a very short
compass, do gentlemen chuse to acquiesce in the independ-
ence of America, or to enforce their submission to this coon^
try by vigorous measures ? We shall be told perhaps not onhr
or the diiBculties of such an enterprize, but of Ac few ad-
vantages we can draw from a country reduced by the calaim«
ties of war : but this argument has little weight with any cme
who considers that the same force which is sufficient to sid^
due the disobedient spirit of America, is also sufficient and
will be exerted to repair her lossef^ and alleviate her calamities.
How soon were the miscltiefis of the last war repaired ! how
soon was commerce restored, and industry re-animated in iH
parts of the world ! But admitting this argument in its fiill
force, admitting that America is regained, weakened and caci*
hausted by the unnatural struggle; compare this sitnadon
with that of American independence ; compare it with the
perpetual loss of those exclusive advantagies you have hitherto
enjoyed in her trade ; consider too, that the moment Ameries
is independent, she becomes the arbiter of your West-Indian
trade, and a dangerous rival in many of the other branches of
British commerce ; from that moment the North American
merchant becomes the rival of the British merchant in every
part of Europe, Asia, and Africa, whilst the European, thi
Asiatic and African merchant, will be received as favourably as
the British through the whole American continent: and I must
maintain, that it would have been better for this country that
America had never been known, than that a great consofadated
American Empire should exist independent of Britain*
Would gentlemen, not mutually reproaching each other for
what has or has been done, without passion and without
prejudice, consider what the exigency of affairs requires now
to be done, they will perceive, whatever its origin might be,
to such a Iieight is this dispute now run, that no measures
can be proposed that the Americans, confident in their own
Strength, would now accept, that would not terminate in real
tfa<3rugh perhaps not in nominal independence ; as dierefore
there is n9wno medium left between their submission and that
independence, those who think it for the advantage of dds
country that America should be reduced Hy a due subniission to
its legislature, will of course strengthen the hands of the ate*-'
cutive power for that constitutional purpose ; those, if thdift'
are any such^ who wish to see America independent, may-IrM
2cut the consequences of their mis^udg^d ^aottahty ti>
A. I77^ DEBATES. tj^i
that conmrj> fatalto the interests ii this, which ought 16 be»
and I truft will be, the first and dearest object to Uie repre-
sentatives of British fi?cehoklenL
Goyemor Ljttelton seconded the motion for the address.
He expatiated on the necessity of strengthening the hands of
Svemment> if coercive measures were intended to be pursued.
I compared America to a chain, the upper part iA which
was strong, and the lower weak) he explained thb, bj say* «
ing, the northern colonies, or upper part of the chain, wer«
strong, populous, and of course able to make resistance | the
soutii^m colonies, or lower part, were weak, on account of
the number of negroes in than. He intimated, if a £ew regi-
ments were sent there^ the negroes would rise, and embrue
their hands in the blood of their mafters. He was againft
any conciliatory offers being made \ said this was the moft
proper time to speak out ; anfl thought, at all events, the ho*
nour of the nation required coercive measures ; that the co«>
lonies ought to be conquered and then to have mercy {hewn
them; concluding, from Virgil^ with parare subjecHs it de*
dthellate superbos.
Lord John Cavendish moved an amendment to erase the
whole address, except the first paragraph, and to insert the
following inftead :
That we behold, with the utmoft concern, the disorders
and discontents in the British colonies, rather encreased than
diminished by the means that have been used to suppress and
allay them \ a circumstance alone sufficient to give this House
juft reason to fear, that those means were not originally well
consideredj or properly adapted to answer the ends to which
they were dirc(Eled.
. We are satisfied by experience that the misfortune has, in
a great measure, arisen from the want of full and proper in«
formation being laid before the Parliament of the true state
and condition of the colonies j by reason of which, mea-
sures have been carried into execution injurious and ineffica-
cious, from whence no salutary end was reasonably to be ex-
pected ; tending to tarnish the lustre of the British arms, to
bring discredit on the wisdom of his Majefly's councils, and
to nourish, without hope of end, a most unhappy civil war.
Deeply impressed with a melancholy ftate of public con*
cems, we shall, in the fuUeft information we can obtain, and
with the most mature deliberation we can employ,, review the
whole of the late proceedings, that we may be enablefd to
discover, as we ihall be most willing. to apply, the moft e&
le^hial mean» of refloring onkr to the distraiSted iiffiurs- of
the
Ij^ PitRLIABJENTARY JLtjjf
Xkfi Brklsk ^mp\r^9 .coixfidemrfi to his MaJBsty& gofe iamta t^
ob^KlifQ<^» W l^.praicPt flxid temperate use of its powers, aur
thority of Parliament, and satisfaiStion and happiness to all his
By thes^ QiOiKQS we trust we shall avoidany occasion of hav-
ing r^Qur^e to the alarming and dangerous expedient of
fgjlii^g in foreign forces to the support of his M^esty's aio-
thority witbili bis own dominions, and the ftill more dreod-
fyX ^aU^nity of shedding British blood by British arms.
^ir Jatnes Ijowthr seconded this motion. He strongly
"furged thjSi great imj^opriety and danger of vefting the inrnoT'*
tant fortresses of Gibi^tar and Minorca in the hands of fi>-
feigaers. He condemned the address throughout; attacked
tb^ whole system of colony government, and the measures
arising from it; and with peculiar energy, urged the interest
he^ bad in the eyent of those measures, the stake he had to lose,
and the motives which might consequently be supposed to in-
fluence bis coi^duct.
. Tbe liOrd Mayor [Mr. Wilkes.'] I entirely agree with the
honourable gentleman who seconded the motion for an address
So his Mfyesty, that every man ought now to speak out; and
lA a;HUK^QAt ^ important as the present to tlie whole empirei
I think it ill becomes the dignity and duty of Parliament to
loi^e itself in such a fulsome,.. adulatory address to the throne
^ that now proposed. We ought rather, Sir, to approach our
Sovereign with sound and wholesome advice,, and even with
remonstrances against the conduct of his ministers, who have
precipitated the nation into an unjust, ruinous, felonious and
^nurderous war, . I call the war with our brethren in America
an unjust, felonious war, because the primary cause and con-
fessed origin of it is, to attempt to take their money from
them without their consent, contrary to the common rights of
s^l mankind, and those great fundamental principles of the
English constitution, for which Hampden bled. I assert. Sir,
that it is in consequence a murderous war, because it is an at-
tempt to deprive men of their lives for standing up in the just
cs^use of the defence of their property and their clear rights.'
It, becomes no less a murderous war with respect to many of
our fellow-subjects of this island; for every man, either of the
' navy or army, who has been sent by government to America,
%r^ bas fallen a victim in thb unnatural and unjust contest,
^as been murdered by administration, and his blood lies at
fiielr door. Such a war^ I fear, Sir, wiHdraW down the ven-
gea9C9 of Heaven upon thia .devoted kingdom.
\ thisyk this war» Sir, £ital'.«nd ruinous to our country. It
absolutely
A. 1775.- X» £ B A T K S* 193
absolutely annihilates the only great gourc^ of ouf wealth,
which we enjoyed unrivalled by other nations, and derives
us of the fruits of the laborious industry of near three millions
of subjei£&> which centered here. That commerce has already
takoi its flight, and oui* American merchants are now deplor-
mg the consequences of a wretched policy, which has been
pursued to their destruction. It is, Sir, no less ruinous with
regard to the enormous expence of the fleets and armies neces-
sary for this nefarious undertaking, so that we are wasting oilr
present wealth, while we are destroying the source of all we
mieht have in future.
I speak, Sir, as a firiend to England and America, but still
more to universal liberty, and the rights of all mankind. I
trust no part of the subje£b of this vast empire will ever sub-
mit to be slaves. I am sure the Americans are too high spirit-
ed to brook the idea. Tour whole power, and that ofyoUr
allies, if you had any, and of all the German troops you can
hire, cannot effeft so wicked a purpose. The conduA of the
present administration has already wrested the sceptre of Ame-
rica out of the hands of our Sovereign, and you have now
scarcely a postmaster left in the whole northern continent.
More than half the empire is already lost, and almost all the
rest is in confusion and anarchy. The ministry have brought
our Sovereign into a more disgraceful situation than' any
crowned head now living. He alone has already lost, by their
fatal counsels, more territory than the three great united
powers of Russia, Austria, and Prussia, have together robbed
Poland of, and by equal a^ of violence and injustice from
administration.
England was never engaged in a contest of such importance
to our most valuable concerns and possessions. We are flghting
for the subje£tion of a country infinitely more extended than
our own, of which every day encreases the wealth, the natu-
ral strength, and population. Should we not succeed, it
will be a bosom friendship soured to hate and resentment.
We shall be considered as their most implacable enemies, an
eternal separation will succeed, and the grandeur of the Bri-
tish empire pass away. Success seems to me not equivocal,
but impossible. However we may difler gmong ourselves,
they are perfectly united. On this side the Atlantic, party-
rage unhappily divides us, but one soul animates the vast
northern continent of America, the general congress and
each provincial assembly. An appeal has been made to the
sword, apd at the close of the last campaign what have we
c nqpered? Bunker's Hill with the loss of 120O men. Arc
'-L. II. O w«
194 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
we to pay as dearly for the rest of America? The££:a of
conquest is as romantic as unjust. : . ■' '
The honourable gentleman^ who moved the address^ say«,
''the Americans have been treated with lenity/* .' Was yonr
Boston port bill a measure of lenity? Was your fishery bill
a measure of lenity? Was your bill for taking away tfae
charter of the Massachusetts Bay a measure of lenity, or" cvm
justice? I omit your many other gross provocations and in-
sults, by which the brave Americans have been driven into
their present state* He asserts that they avow a disposition
to be independentf On the con|r?uy, Sit:, all the declarations
both of the late and the present congress, uniformly itend to
this one objedl, of being put on the same footii^g. they itrere
in the year 1763. Tlys has been their ooly. demand, fixmi
which they have never varied. Their daily prayers arc fir
liberty, peace and safety. I use the words of the congress of
the last year. They justly expeft to be. put on an equal 'foot-
ing with the other subje£b of the empire. If you confine ak
our trade to yourselves, say they; if you make a monopoly
of our commerce; if you shut all other ports of the world
against us, tax us not too. - If yoii do, then give us a free
trade, such as you enjoy yourselves ; let us have equal advan-
taged of commerce, all other ports open to us ; then we caOi
and will, chearfiilly pay taxes*
It must give. Sir, every- man who loves this country, the
deepest concern at the naming in the address foreign troops,
•Hanoverians and Hessians, who are now called to interfere in
our domestic quarrels, not to dwell this day on the ill^lity
of the measure. The militia indeed are now employied, and
that noble institution is at present camplimented by ministers,
.who hate the very name of a tnilitia, because the embodying
of these forces enables administration to butcher more or onr
fellow subjedb in America.
Sir, I disapprove not only the evil spirit of the whole ad-
dress, . but likewise the wretched adulation of almost every
part of it. My wish and hope therefore is, that it will be
reje(Eted by the House, and that another dutiful, yet decent,
manly address will be presented to the King, praying his Ma-
jesty that he would sheath the sword, prevent the farther
effusion of the blood of our fellow subjefts, adopt some mode
of negociation with the general congress, in compliance witk
their repeated petition, and thereby restore peace and har-
mony to this distradted empire.
Sir Adam Fur^sson said, that if experience did not shew
that scarce any question ever came before that House without
' Ipitne
A. 1 775* DEBATES. 195
some variety of opinion, he would have flattered himself that#
however much they had hitherto differed, they should now,
at least, have come together with some degree of unanimity.
■ That gentlemen should differ about some particular points
of colony government, as, for example, how far it w^s ex^^
pediept c^r utexpedient to tax America, considering how ipu^h
that questio^ was involved in difficulty, and how much
could be ptau$i{>ly said on the one side or the other, was not
inuj:h to be .wondered at: but that it was matter of no sxnall
surprise to him, that they were still likely to differ in opipior^
when the question was no longer coxifined to taxation, pr to
any particmar exercise of the authority of Great Britain^ but
extended to the very being of the sovereignty itself, and to
those rights of which this kingdom had been in possession
ever since the existence of the cplonies.
That the honourable magistrate [the lateLprd Mayor. Mr.
Wilkes] had said, tnat the congress had declared they did not
*aim at indepeQdence. They certainly had done so in gepeiTd
terms: but how did their particular claims correspox^d . tq this
general assertion? ELe was afraid, if these were |^xamgied>
it would appear that the pretensions of the congress wenf the
length of a total exemption from the power and authority of
Parliament. ..,/:....
They had declared in the most express tcrms^ t^at P^irli^
ment had no right,, to intermeddle with their proyisiom for
the support of civil ' government, ot. the adminisfcraticHi ojF
justice. Their language was, that wl^e Parliament pursued
its jplan of civil government within its own jurisdi£iion,^thcy
insisted ugon pursuing theirs without molestation, plainly
claiming an authority m each of tha colony assemblies, ex-
clusive of that of Parliament. An etxc^^^ve right oiFlegislation
in all matters of ihternal polity had betn, in the most express
term, asserted by them, and not only the late afts of Parlia^
ment more particularly complained of, but every other which
touched upon the internal polity of the colonies, had, been
treated by them as unjust encroachments of Parliament upon
the rights of a legislature as independent as itself.
In military matters, their pretensions were equally extrava-
gant. They expressly denied that Great Britain. ha4 a right
.to keep a single soldier in the whole extensive continent of
, America, without the consent of the legislature of that colony
where the troops were kept.
With regard to. revenue, had not a declaration been mad^
in words intelligible to\all mankind, that America jQever
would be taxed by P^Uament, unless they refosed to contij^
^ ' O 2 butc
ipS PARLIAMENTARY. A. 177^-
i>ute their proportion to the common expences of the state '
They even knew, that any reasonable sum would be accepted
of : but they would not gratify this country so far as to say
that they would contribute a single shilling.
* The only particular in which they seemed inclined to ad-
mit the authority of Parliament was in what related to the re-
gtilation of their trade : even with regard to that, they ex-
j^ressed themselves with a sufficient degi^ee of caution ; biit
ni every thing dse they asserted an absolute independence on
Parliament.
Ilk what manner things had been brought to that unhappy
dilemma, did not seem the proper objeft of their present en-
quiry. Hiere might be time enough for that enquiry after-
^rards. The present objeft was to remedy the evil. For bis
part, were he to give his opinion upon that subjeft, he should
ht apt- to say, that the ^ult did not so much lie in thb or
^hat particular set of measures, as in that variable and fluc-
iuating coiHluft, which cannot be altogether avoided in a go-
▼entoiemt such as ours, and which h^ remarkably prevailed
with regard to America*
*" He shoidd be apt to say, that no ministry, since the time of
the ' stamp-aft, had been altogether free of blame : but he
should at the same time add, that, perhaps, more than anv
'AiinistrTt those had been to blame, who, not satisfied with
cxpi^etsing ^eir cfisapprobation of particular measures, had
argiled, both vifithin and without doors, against the autho-
rity of the supreme legislature itself; who, from an excess
pfiead in support pf America, seemed too much to forget
the interest or the mother-country; and, from an apprehen-
sion lest the colonies >ihould be ruled with too heavy a hand,
seemed incUned to addbt measures which had a tendency to
exempt them from tne dominion of Great Britain ako-
S ether, and to ereft them into so many sovereign indepen-
ent states.
But instead of investigating the causes of the evil, it was
more material now to consider what was proper to be done to
remedy it, and in this he saw but one choice, either to support
with vigour the authority of Great Britain, or to abandon
America altogether.
That some speculative men have said, and published theii^ .
opinions to the world, that it would be no such fatal stroke
to Britain as is generally imagined, were America to be aban-
doned altogether; that he had not opinion enough of lus own
foresight to say with certainty what the consequence would
be^ but so-much benefit he had reaped from these speculations
' at
A.t775. DEBATE 8. 197
as to hope that the wel&re and prosperity of ^ Great BtitMi
would not be desperate even were such an e^ebt ta ha^ipen.
But who would be bold enough to advise such a measure?
and who could, with certainty, answer for the efie£b of it?
If no person would, what remained, but that they should
exert every nerve to reduce their rebellious subjedts to obe-
dience ? After they had reduced them, and cdnvinced them
of their inability to resist the power, of this country, theAj
and not till then, would be the time to shew them all possi-
ble indulgence.
That any farther concession now would be considei^ as
extorted from them by their fears, not as the voluntary effoEt
of their favour.
But can this country reduce them to obedience, or- nlust
their contest be givep up for want of power ? If it must, there
is no help for it: but, at least, let us put it to the trisd ; fdr
his own part,he could not entertain a doubt of it | he did, in-
deed, see that those were mistaken who said the Americuis
would not fight : but those were, at least, as much mistakenj
if there were any such, who would entertain a doubt of their
being reduced by a proper exertion of the power of Great
Britain.
As he could not doubt of the strength (^ Great Britain to
reduce them, so he hoped if that strength was exerted it
would be done eflfedhially. If a force is sent to America j both
prudence and humanity required that it should be such a one
as, humanly q>eaking, would carry its point* The error hi-
therto had been to b^ve too small a force there ) to continue
the same error still, was to protraft the miseries and horrors
of a civil war. He did not mean merely that such a force
should be sent as would be sufficient to beat their opponents;
it ought to be such a one as would deprive them of aH idea
of resistance. .
These being his sentiments, he could not possibly give hit
assent to the amendment proposed by the noble liord.
He concluded with expressing a wish that in this great and
trying crisis, in which the power, the aufjhority, the imipor-
tance of Parliament was at stake ; in which the questioh wz$^
whether the King, Lords, and Commons shoilld cdbt)nue|
as he had always understood them to be, the great goyeming
power of the whole British empire; or if America was hence<*
forward to be subjefl to the Kin? alone, while Pariiament
was reduced to a level with one of the. provincial asscmbMes,
If gentlemen would lay aside theanimosi^r of party, and con-
fine their views singly to their country, that he knew that
O 3 while
ipS PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
wJiUc ihb gbvemment subsisted there must be <fifierent pai^
tie9> 9Xkd that .the minister^ merely because hie was mhuster*
tnust be opp6sed. That he did not wish it otherwise*. He
Wais afiraid^uch opposition was necessary to su{^ly the want
of public virtue: but that though such opposition was to be
expected in the ordinary course of parliamentary pfocccdMgs^
tjiere Were some cases of much too serious a nature to admit
of it, and suckiie thought the present case to be.
Governor, ^ofau/ow. The speech of the honourable baro-
net who spoke last is very much like that we have just heard
from the throne, full of assumed false faAs and general un-
disputed axioms, which the people in America are as ready
to close with as their adversaries on this side. As for in-
itance, the honourable gentleman says, <^ the Americans had
pome reason for their conduA in the fir$|;of those disputes^
but npw they have refused their yW proportion of tajtes, by
rejecting Lord North's conciliatory proposition of last year,
and resisting the constitutional authority of parliament, he is
fcady to devote them to destruction." Who does not see' that
the whole question^ even according to this honourable gen-f*
tleman, turns upon Just proportion and connitutional autho-
rity ? Now I deny that the people of America have ever re-
fused to contribute their just proportion, when called upon in
I|L constitutional way, and those who assert the contrary ought
io prove it. If the honourable gentleman vindicates the se-
verity of his condudk against his fellow subje6b in America,
JFor rejecting the proposition of last year, whichthe ndbleLord
introduced about the middle of the session, I think her^s 0x1
as feeble ground as any man ever stood on. How does he
. vindicate the severities in which he concurred bi^ore it could
be known whether the subjefts in America would ^ced^ to
this marvellous indulgence or not i His mind must haVe bcieh
strangely biassed to the noble Lord, if this could turn the
fcale of his reason.* I really thought this foolish piece of
paper ha^ been so universally condemned, that I should ne-
ver again have heard any arguments founded on so flimsy ^
jfoundatioQu The purpose was clearly to amuse the people 911
this side the Atlantic, and to divide the people on that.
tiaviqg failed, in its effef^s, I understood from many friends
of government^ that every rational argument in support of
the proposition had been reprobated: for what, indeed, can
be more tn4y ridiculous, that in a dispute concerning the
power of taxation, seriously to say to a sensible people, we
admit there are many imanswerable reasons why this assem-
bly
A. 1 775- DEBATES. 199
bly are unfit to impose taStes upon you^ and therefore, if 70a
will only tax yourselves to our satisfa^on, we will forbear the
exercise o£ a. rigjit to which we declare by the proposition we
are incompetent : but some men will say the Pariiament can
judge sufficiently well of the gross sum, though unfit and in«
capable of determining on the manner in which it b to be
raised. Who that is accustomed to reason accurately, does not
p^ceive that the estimate of supply must be regulated from a
thorough knowledge of the ways and means, and that they
are united in common sense, as well as by the English consti-
tution, to reside in the same persons. But the honourable ba^
ronet forgets that the main argument which drew the conces-
sion of the conciliatory proposition turns on this : The Ame-
ricans have no representatives in the British Parliament ; they
have not the security of other subje£b residing in Britain, who
may not be represented, namely, that the xnanbers in taxing •
them must tax themselves ; on the contrary, it is the interest
of every member to lay as much as possible on America .to ease
himself. This was the consideration which ^^ drew iron tears
from Pluto's cheek," and has afifeded so many members not ■■
remarkably tender towards the feeling of their fdk)w-crea»
ture. But let us consider if this irresistible objeAion, as it has
been, called by one of the firiends of administration, against
taxing America by the British Parliament, does not equally
apply, when we approve o£ the sum offered, and tax them in
the lump, as when we tax them by detaiL . .
However, Sir,, absurd a^ this appear;, it is not my capital
cbje^on to d^t mode of raising money, nor is it the object
tion of the Americans i they maintain the power of giving
and granting dtveir own money by their own free and vohm^
tary consent, is the only security they can retain for the just
administration of government, at so great a distance from the
seat of empire. That it 13 the main spring in their several
establishments upon , which the meeting and power of their
several assemblies depend, from whence the iringiilar prosper
rity of the British colonies, above. all others on the face of
the earthy have flowcjd. They admit you have the power of
limiting the means, by wjh^ch they may acquire property,
but they deny you the power of disposing of this property
after it is so acquired. Thus in his Majesty's speech the
<ame general undefined axioms prevail. "To be a subjeft
of Great Britain, with all its consequences, is to he the freest*
member of any civil society in the known world." All Axne-i.
rica with one voice agree in this truth \ their writings and
their anions proclaim their belief: but they maintain, as I
jO 4 ' assert
200 FARLIAMENTART A. 177^
assert in their behalf, that, one of the unalienable consequences
of that situation, is the giving* and granting of suds for the
support of government, according to the exigency that shall
appear to their own understanding : and that to tax them in
an assembly where they have no representatives, and by men
wKp have no interest in the subsidy they impose, is contrary
to the spirit of the British constitution, and in its conse-
quences must deprive them of all the essential rights of a
British subjeA. Another essential right of a British subjeft
is trial by jury ; has not this been abrogated in many cases
by t|je late afts of Parliament, and totally destroyed in all
civil causes in the extensive province of Quebec ? Thc^ writ
of habeoj corpus is another essential right of a British sub*
jeA i has not this also been done away ; I forbear to enume<«
rate the other oppressive proceedings^ contrary to the whole
tenor of our government, dissolving of charters without evi-
dence, trial, or forfeiture j laws to deny the natimil gifts of
the elements, confounding the innocent with the guilty ; be-
cause when once the three great pillars of the British consti-*
tution are removed, taxing without representatives, trial with-
out jury, imprisonment without relief by writ of habeas cor**
pusy the whole must necessarily fall into con&siein, and the
rest is not worth contending for. The people in America
wisely foresee the suppression of all their rights, in the train
of thpse iniquitous innovations. They perceive that every
thing which is dear to a free man Is at stake, and they are
willing, as becomes the children of their ancestors, to put all
to the risque, and sacrifice their.^lives and fortunes, rather
than give up the liberty of a subjeA of Great Britain, with all
it3 consequences • The honourable baronet has concluded his
speech with another reason for inducing us to join. in the co-
ercive measures proposed by the address, which is still more
extraordinary, saying, " Whether we succeed or not may be
uncertain ; but if we fail, we shall even then be no wprse than
we were.*' These are the very words of the noble Lord on
the treasury bench last year. I am persuaded the worthy bsu
ronet has words of his own so much at will, (hat he borrows
from no man 1 but I am more surprised he c^n sanAafy such .
opinions by his voice. If America is forced to invite foreign
powers to share in her commerce i if she is drove to the ne-
cessity of following the example of Holland and Switzerland; .
if our armies are destroyed, our fleets wrecked, our treasures '
wasted, our reputation for justice and humanity lost, our se-
nates cormpted by the emoluments which must fall to indi*
viduals,
A. 1775, DEBATES. wi.
viduals, in the prosecution of so expensive a war^ and four
sliillings land-tax entailed on us for ever, will the honourable
gentleman say we are only where we were? .What objefts can
call the attention of the House in a stronger degree than those
I have enumerated ? and yet they are all mvolved in the ques-
tion now before you, if you rejeft the amendment proposed.
I say, it is unJEair in administration, and an afiront to every
individual member of the House, to call upon them without
any information laid on your table, without evidence brought
to your bar, destitute of every material by which a rational
creature can resolve, to require he should give his unlimited
sanftion to measures of such moment, on the very first day
(perhaps) of his arrival in town. The reason is obvious to
me. The minister clearly perceives, if men were acquainted
with the real state of things in America 5 if they had time to
acquire information, to reason and refleft, that all men of ge-
nerous feelings would leave him, and even his most desperate
followers might be shaken : men are to be brouglit to this
black busfacss hood-winked; they arc to be drawn in by d^-
grefes till they cannot retreat. On the one hand a dutiful ad-
dress to his Majesty, full of those general assurances of loyalty
and respcfl: becoming subjefts to the first magistrate, is offered[
to your determination : on the other, a hasty approbation of
measitires you have had no time to consider, from men you
have every reason to suspeft, lies before you. Is there a man
who feels the dignity of his situation, that can hesitate in his
choice upon such an alternative ?
I shall ndw'exposc to the House the false fafls which arc
assumed in his Majesty's speech, as composed by tl>e minister.
First, the minister tells you he has called you early together
This I deny. The commencement of open hostilities was in
April, the battle of Bunker's hill in June, and the petition
from the congress in July ; they severally arrived in England
within five or six wcAs after the events. Now I maintain as
a member of Pariiament intrusted with a voice in the supreme
authority of the empire, that I am called late to deliberate '
in the national council on such great events. The next no-
torious nntrtith is, that the Americans arc collefting a naval
force. The third assertion, that the Americans meant only
to amuse by vague expressions of attachment, to the pa-
rent state, is equally injurious to their honour and to truth.
This can only be asserted as an excuse for the bad conduft of
administration and their ill success. The Americans told you
in language the most direA and simple, again and again re^
peatedi
202 PARLIA.MENTARt .A. i775-
peated^ that they would resist to the last appeal those arbitrary
innovations : but you affefted not to bcUeve them ; . never-
dieless; I maintain, the armaments were calculated to. resist
men in arms, and the insufficiency arose JErom a total igno-
rance of the force, charadter and dispositions of the people in
America, as well as a misconception upon the eSeEt the se-«
veral restraining bills passed last sessions would produce : in
short, from a perfeft ignorance of the operations or cruelty and
oppression on high-minded men, acting under the spirit of free-
dom. All their knowledge seems to have been drawn from one
source, that of Govemoi: Hutchinson. The .'civil war now
raging in America seems, step by st^p, to have been carried
on by his advice. Whoever reads his letters, lately publish-
ed in America, sees every measui;e pursued by administrati<m
to have been antecedently pointed out by this gentleman in
his confidential correspondence, until Us sentiments seem
diftated at last more by revenge and disappointment than any
other principle: what confidence should be placed in the ad-
vice of a man who has declared in the cool moments of com-^
mitting his refleftions to paper, that every'Machijtvelian policy
is now to be vindicated towards the people in America? 1
am here supposing the letters in my hand to be. .^Quine, and
there is little reason to doubt their authenticity, as they re-
main uncontradi£led. It matters not to me, as. a judge, how
they were procured. The only question respedting my opi-
liion on the conduct of Mr. Hutchinson at present is, are the
ktters genuine or not? For in this I always diflFefed from the
lords of the council,, who determined on the complaint of the
province of New England against Governor Hutchinson, on
the former letters they discovered. The Lords of the coun-
cil laid the whole stress on the manner in which the letters had
been obtained. No man could admire the abilities of the
anlvocate more than I did on that occasion; it was his busi-
ness to inflame the passions, to cover the turpitude of Go-
vernor Hutchinson's conduft, under crimes of a greater dye :
but it was shameful in the judges to be led away, it was un-
TBrorthy the discrimination so necessary to that charafter, , to
mmgle the manner of obtaining the letters with the faft they
were brought to prove. I shall suppose the letters had been
obtained as infamously as the Essay on Woman, and more
infamously it is impossible 5 yet my judgment on the con-
duft of a governor writing to men in high authority, on
the politick affairs of his province, and concluding a^ his
advice, that the liberty of British subjects must be abridged,
' ' would
A. 1775. DEBATES- 203
would not Have been akcred from that circumstance. And
here I nfiist' avow my senthnehts as freely as Governor
Hutchinson has communicated his, that any oiEcer in go-
vernment, ihuch less the supreme magistrate, entrusted with
the preservation of the rights of every individual in his pro-
vince, who could entatain such sentiments, is unfit to be
employed in any office,- civil or military, after- a faft of so
heinous a nature against the constitution being fully proved.
I am confident our ancestors, instead of giving such a man
an endrmous' pension, would have inflicted the punishment
he deserved, which I think should have been an address to
the crown, diat he might never more have been employed in
the service of the public.
I know there are many men high in favour who are for
mhridging the liberties of. the people in the colonies. My
system, on the contrary; is for preserving them sacred and
inviolate, according to their several antient institutions, the
variety of which forms the harmony and beauty of the whole*
There is no middle institution, as in this country, . to ba-
lance between the people and the crown : the assemblies arc
their only barrier ; they are, therefore, the favourite insti-
tution of the people ; to them they look for proteftion against
the exadlipns, oppressions, and extortions of governors, and
are, on that account, cautious and jealous of any infringement
that shall diminish their power. The honovirable gentleman
who seconded this address has been long employed as his Ma^
jesty's representative in tlie colonies, first in Carolina, and
lastly in Jamaica; every thing he offers to this House must
derive "great weight from these circumstances \ his abilities
are undisputed.. I have not the honour of knowing himj but
I have heard his talents universally acknowledged. Having
been oh the spot in some places, it miist give him many addi-
tional advantages, for I maintain it is impossible for any man
who has not seen with his own eyes, and heard with his own
c:j"s, to kn6\v equally well the manners, customs, dispositions,
and other circunistanccs necessary to form a true judgment on
the present contest with the colonies 5 but it is also necessary
to know sonie leading circumstances respefting the person who
offers his infohnation and advice^ before we hastily con-
cur in his opinion. The honourable gentleman says, " it may
appear strange, that he who has grown grey in the service of
America, should now appear among the first to propose those
coercive measiwes, which by some are termed cruel and
hanh/' but this he excuses from his humanity: I say, it may
appear
ao4 P A R L I A MEN T A R Y. A. 1775*
appear strange to some who are not acquainted with the hi9*
tory of that gentleman's admiinistration so well as Ij that he
should take this forward part. But here I pren^iae} that I do
not enter into the merit of the dispute which that gentleman
had with the assembly of Jamaica, because it is beyond my
present argument; all I assert is, that he had an unfortunate
dispute with that body, which lasted two years; that) .during
this period they would do no business with him, or raise any
money; that he dissolved the assembly more than on^e, and
still a greater majority were found against his measures; that
he 'was at last recalled, and a successor appointed, who can-
celled his proceedings, upon one of the most unfortutiaU re-
presentations that ever attended any man on leaving his go-
vernment : I am, therefore, not surprised that the honour-
able gentleman should be inimical to American assemblies*
or that he should be ready to join with those who have found
out a shorter way of governing them, than by the general
sense of the people, seeing they are so troublesome, on many
occasions, to the repose of a governor.
The honourable gentleman has given us some account of
the debilitated state of men in the other province he had tdbie
honour to command, and hinted at means for subduing their
spirit, in a manner which inclines me to believe he has not
left any more friends behind in that colonv than in Ja-
maica. Administration has been so much misled by those
partial and illiberal accounts of men in the gross, that I dare
say they will be cautious how they trust to such intelligence
again. Neither my reading or observation give me leave to
think the people of Carolina will bie behind any of the coIo*
nies, in supporting and defending rights which, are so essen-
tial to securing every thing that is dear to them as British
subjects. The honourable gentleman had occasion to lead
them to war on a certain occasion; I wish he would tell the
House how they behaved.' If southern climates had such
strange effects in enervating the human frame, give me leave
to hope at least that the nonourable gentleman has escaped
this contagion. The other scheme he alludes to, of calling
forth the slaves, is too black and horrid to be adopted; nei-
ther would it answer, if administration were wicked enough
to make the attempt: the state of slavery cuts off all the
great magnanimous inventive powers of the human mind, but
It rather strengthens fidelity and attachment ; the Roman his-t
tory ftdly confirms this : amidst the multiplied treachery of
friends and relations, amidst the greatest temptations, dur-r,
ing the corruptions of that government, the slave was sel-
donx
I
A. t^^s. DEBATES. 205
dom or ever unfeithful to his master. The principle li^ in
human natiire. Where mankind are deprived of the means
of getting subsistence, where they are accustomed to look up
to another for food, raiment and proteftion, they insensibly
forget the original injury they sustained, and become attached
to their master. In general, I must also observe, that masters
are kind to their slaves. It is not he who uses the scourge and
the whip, which' the honourable geutleman has mentioned^
that is the first *to put the musqtiet on his shoulders in sud(i
gloridus contests as these. It is not he who tortures and frets
his fellow-creatitfes; but he who feels that universal beneyc^
Icnce whidi extends his affefltions to all men in their several
stations; who ifeels the spirit of equality, who knows the
principles of liberty, who understands the consequence ojF
those rightsi' without which. we are always worse men and
worse subjefts,' and who is willing, for the benefit of children
et unborn, to seal the truth ofhis doftrine with his blooct
t is not to men of this temper that slaves will prove unfaith-*
ful. I shall rather expe£t to see them flock round his stand*
ard, though I admit the experiment is too dangerous on
cirfier side. I say again, the whole of our blunders, oppres^
sions and mistakes, in these unfortunate disputes, have arisen
from ignorance in the first principles of government ; gross
ignorance in the several constitutions of the colonies j igno-
rance in the power we could apply to subdue them, and still
greater ignorance of the end to be obtained by such an at-
tempt. To each of those I will severally speak. I say it
demonstrates a perfeft ignorance of the history of civil so-
ciety, to assert (which is the captivating argument used in
this House, for breaking down all the barriers of liberty in
America) that two independent legislatures cannot exist in
the same community, and therefore we are to destroy the
whole fabric of those governments which have subsisted for
so many years. Mankind are constantly quoting some trite
maxim, and appealing to their limited theory ' in politics,
while they rejeft established fadts. I say, ar free government
necessarily involves many clashing jurisdiftions, if pushed to
the extreme. I maintain this species of government must
ever depend more on the spirit of freedom that first establish-
ed it, than on all the parchment you can cover with words. I
aver that in the most aftivc triumphant commonwealth which
ever appeared on the stage of the world, two distinft legisla-
tive authorities did aihially exist. The comitia tributa and the
comitia centuriata. The whole government of Athens would
appear
2o6 P A R L I A M.E N T A R T A. 1775-
appear as containing so many ridiculous paradoi^es to; thqse
wise politicians. The aftual state of Holland, where every
town is a distinft government within itself. The deliberations
of the States General, where no money can be raised uc(le3s
the whole are unanimous. No new laws made or any ol^
repealed against one dissenting voice; all tl^e would
appear impossible to such politicians, who are eyjpr supposiiig^
mankind ready to' destroy themselves : nev^hel^ss the fafis
are equally certain. If the best parts of our cojistitiition were
to be stated to a foreigner \ the trial by jury, where twelve
men must be unanimous in their ppiiiiouj in causes the most
Intricate and nice, where even the ablest counsel diiier in^opi-
nion, he would be led to imagine justice might stand stUljjrct
we all know nothing proves so easy in the execution. . The
.danger of pushing things to extrem^y m^kes the good sense of
men prevail, while the power^ of resisting in every individu^
Juryjnahy prevents prejudice and injustice froijii trying their
strength on matters that are not tenable. The', springs of a
free government are not obvious to every understandings
Vhile the meanest foot soldier knows all the powers of des-
potism. Here the supremacy of the magistrate solves ev^y
question. In the same manner the advantages derived from
America, in the circle of commerce, are^iot so evident to a
vulgar understanding, as so much palpable cash paid into the
Exchequer, For this reason I am ready to forgive those
who differ with me in opiilion, concerning this Ameri-
can contest. It demands a process of reasoning to which
common understandings are not generally accustomed.
I should not be surprised if half the people in England sTiould
at first join against the Americans 5 national prejudice, pride,
false glory, and false arithmetic, all contribute to deceive them ;
but that any man assuming the chara<^er of a statesman should
procfted in this mad career, to destroy in a few years that
beautiful system of empire our ancestors have been raisihg
with so much pains and glory ; first under the false pretence
of raising a revenue, arid next under a more false pretence that
America wishes to throw off her just dependence on Great Bri-
tain. This, I confess, does surprise me. For this reason my in-
dignation chiefly rises against the noble Lord on the floor ;
I am willing to acquit all. his colleagues and most of his fol-
lowers, even if they had not the interested motives of place
and pensions to bias their judgment; but that the noble
Lord, who yearly considers the riches that come into the
public treasury, who knows and can trace all the circuitous
channels
A. 1775- DEBATES. 207
channels by which riches flow into this country, that he
should place no'tnbre to the credit of America than the paltry
sum collefteci by his insignificant commissioners, and endeavour
to mislead ofhdrs by such assertions. This indeed is beyond
belief. WMcn the nobkrlord is pleased to take the oth^side
oifthe argument, what abundance of wealth does he some*
times pour forth itf the most copious, flow of eloquence. Whjcn
he supports this rugged coercive system, how he labours and
fla^s ; nothing biit sounding words, and unmeaning phrases.
Toe dignity oj Parliament! now I say this is best supported
by humanity and justice, and maintaining the freedom 6f the
subie.^. The supremacy oF the legislative authority of
Great Britain! this I call unintelligible jargon; instead of
running the differeiit privileges belonging to Uie vA):!ipti$ parts
of the empire into on^ common niass ^of po^ec^^ JKntld-
men should consider that the very first principles ot ,good
government in. this wide extended dominion, consist in
subdividing the empire into many p^rts,"and giving to each
individual an ifnihediate interest, that the community to
which he belongs should be well regulated. This is the
principle upon which our ancestors established those diflferent
colonies or communities; this is the principle on which
they have flourished so long and so prosperously ; this is the
principle on which alone they can be well governed at such
a distance from the seat of empire. Yet we are breaking
through all those sacred maxims of our forefathers, and giving
the alarm to every wise man on the continent of America,
that all his rights depend on the will of men whose corrup-
tions arje notorious, who regard him as an enemy, and who
have no interest in his prosperity, and feel no controul from
him as a constituent. The most learned writer on govern-
ment has defined civil and political liberty to consist in a per-
fect security as to a man's rights j after the a6b of Parlia-
ment of last ytar, can any man on the great continent
of America say that he feels that security ? Could any thing
less than a dread of losing every essential privilege, have
united a people so divided in customs, manners, climate, and
• communications ? Could any thing less than an intire want
of policy, a species of political phrenzy here, have produced
this wonderfiil eflPedt ? You blame the Americans, but do
not consider the next step which your condudl necessarily
drives them to. You assert they aim at independency ; I
assert they wish for nothing more than a constitutional de-
pendence on Great Britain, according as they have subsisted
from
ao8 iP A R L I A M E N r R A Y. A. 177^
firom their first establishments, and according as Ireland d^^
pends on the British legislature at this moment. Cap
any nian who knows the power of the crown in the legialatiu^e
and executive parts of oiir colony goyemment, ,who under*
stands the force of the seyeril afts. of navigation, who
knows the incitements and attachments by the education of
youth in this country, ^ho knows what would be^the efiedk
of mixing the colonists in our fleets ^nd armtes> and every
other office in our goyernjment; who considers the eflEMb
of appeals in the last resort to his Majesty in council i w}io
kno^ the power of hi^ Majesty in annulling the laws made ui
the colonies witl^n three years; who perceives the advan-
tages that cvciy part of the empire derives from the prospe-
rity of the otner'J who is there, I say. capable of digest;-
Ing those thought^s, and can entertam the icnoUe jealousies
daily expressed against the Americans, or miow any motive
why the people in America should break the bond of union
with .this country for ages yet to come, unless driven to
that extremity by following Mr. Hutchinson's advice in
abridging their liberties^ which is as much a part of their birth-
right as of any man living and bom in England. The nature
ol government will not allow us to define what are the
precise points where resistance may be made to the governing
powers; but will any man conclude from thence that a£b
of King, Lords and Commons ou?ht not to be resisted, if
they should sap the fundamental principles of the constitution?
Nothing but the general feeling of the community can de-
termine the point ; and was ever the sense of a people so
unanimous on any subjeft? I declare, upon my honour, I
have not conversed with one man from America (and I have
chiefly sought out the friends of Administration) who ha$
not universally agreed, that all America is unanimous in re-
sisting the power of taxing tliem by the British Parliament,
^vhere they have; no representatives; that they will never
yield this point; that in case they were made easy on this
point, and secure as to their charters, on which their proper-
ty depends, they would immediately return to their duty and
obedience. This I aver to be the universal report and opi-
nion of all men with whom I have conversed from America.
If any one disputes the truth of my assertions, I now defy
him to bring any evidence to contradift me, and I now un^
dertake to bring men oftl^e best . charafters in support of
what I aver. But respefting general opinion, I still go
further; I maintain that the sense of the best and wisest man
in
f
A. 1775. DEBATES- 209
in this country, are on the side of the Americans 5 that three
to one in Ireland are on their side 5 that the soldiers and
sailors feel an unwillingness to the service; that you never
will find the same exertions of spirit in this as in other wars.
I speak it to the credit of the fleet and army ; they do not
like to butcher men whom the greatest characters in this
country consider as contending in the glorious cause of pre-
serving those institutions which are necessary to the happi-
ness, security and elevation of the human mind, I am well
informed, that four field officers, in the four regiments now
oing from Ireland, have desired leave to retire or sell out.
do not mean to say, that the soldiers or sailors in America
have shown any signs of cowardice, this is below their spirit )
I only assert they in general proclaim it a disagreeable ser-
vice; most of the army feel it as such; that numbers have
not deserted is owing to their situation. There is a wide
difference between the English officer or soldier who barely
docs his duty, and the general exertions of the New Eng-
land army, where every man is thinking what further service
he can perform; where every soldier is a Scavola. Toa-
mind who loves to contemplate the glorious spirit of freedom,
no spectacle can be more affecting than the action at Bunker's
hill. To see an irregular peasantry commanded by a physician:
inferior in number : opposed by every circumstance of cannon
and bombs that could terrify timid minds, calmly waiting the
attack of the gallant Howe, leading on the best troops in
the world, with an excellent train of artillery, and twice
repulsing those very troops who had. often chaced the chosen
battalions of France, and at last retiring for want of ammu-
nition, but in so respectable a manner, that they were not
even pursued. Who can reflect on such scenes and not adore
the constitution of government which could breed such men j
Who will not pause and examine, before he destroys institu-
tions that have reared such elevated spirits ! Who is there
that can dismiss all doubts on the justice of a cause which
can inspire such' conscious rcftitude ? The conduft of the
people of New England for wisdom, courage, temperance,
fortitude, and all those qualities that can command the ad-
miration of noble minds, is not surpassed in the history of
any nation under the sun. Instead of wrecking our ven-
geance against that colony, their heroism alone should plead
their forgiveness. What my worthy friend* said last year of
Vol. II. P their
* Mr. Burke.
2IO PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775;
their industry, may now be applied to their warlike atchieve*
ments. Consider the power of such materials in the hands
of a minister who knew how to encourage their industry,
and apply their courage to the purposes of national defence :
but all the secret of our colony government is now reduced
to mere force, the baneful engine of destructive despotism ;
nevertheless it is with pleasure I perceive the force of this
country, when wielded in such a cause, is totally inadequate ;
your own army is not sufficient ; your illegal application for
foreign merc^enaries at the begiiming of the contest, sufficiently
shews yopr weakness j your navy is equally incapable of
effecting the purposes which are expected from it. It may
ruin their foreign trade ; it may destroy some of their towns
(though that is doubtful) but the lying in their rivers, as
some suppose, without a superior military force to protect
them on shore-, I say as a sea officer, if the war is thoroughly
kindled, the thing is impossible. We are apt to judge £rom
what happened at Quebec, where the French, never re-
markable for naval enterprise, though naturally brave, quitted
their fire raft, and left it to the chance of the stream, or to
be towed off by boats; but this I maintain, that any fleet
lying in a river where they cannot command the shore, that
such fleet is liable to be burnt if the people are willing in
that enterprize to run the same risque of life and danger
to which the crew of the ships are exposed, I mean by
sticking by the fire-vessel whatever she may be, till with wind
and stream they lay the enemy a thwart hause •, and who
can doubt that the people in America are capable of such
exertions of courage when we see them refuse quarter, when
we find them devoting themselves to death with such enthu-
siasm. Another circumstance respecting ships is not gene-
rally known. The wonders they have hitherto performs! has
been owing to the ignorance of engineers in placing their
batteries ; but I am afraid the secret is now out as to their
power against the shore, without a military force to assist
them; a single gnn in a retired situation, or on an eminence,
or a single howitzer, will dislodge a first rate man of war, and
may burn her, to add to tlie disgrace. 1 speak this publicly,
that you may not expect more from the sea service than it
is capable to perform. Ruin their trade you certainly may,
but at an expence as ruinous to this country. Has any of
the ministry considered the immense expence of such naval
armaments on the coast of America, in transports and ships
of war ? Have we calculated the chance of destruction by
those
A. 177^ DEBATES. aix
those horrid streams of wind peculiar to that coast, that some^
times sweep all before them r Where are the resources ou
which this country can dep^d in case our empire in America
is lost ? I do not say you will feel the disadvantage immediate-
ly, I know the various channels to which commerce and indus-
try may divert their streams; I am also certain that the
wants of America must be supplied in some way or other
with certain goods from Great Britain ; I further know, that a
nation can only trade to the extent of its capital, and in case
one vent is cut off, it will probably find another, while its ma-
nufa£hu*es ju-e cheaper and better than those of other na-
tions. I believe such to be the case with many branches of
our manufactiure at present, but is it possible it can long con-
tinue? Must not the same laws of nature follow this com-
mercial coimtry that has affe^ed Venice and Genoa, the
Hans Towns and other commercial states ? The acquirement
of wealth must produce dearness in living; dearness of living
must produce dearness of labour ; dearness of labour must
produce dearness of manufafhu-es ; dearness of manufactures
must conduA trade to some place where cheapness of liv-
ing will give the preference in the markets. Thus the
circle of commerce has hitherto run : but the settlement
of North America under the old establishment, seemed to
defy the powers of those fleeting principles. America was
bound to. take your manufaftures only to whatever price they
might rise ; you were bound to take most of her raw mate-
rials and to give her commerce proteftioh; ^ compleat sys-
tem in the exchange of all commodities was established
within your own dominion, which might last beyond the
views of human calculation, if properly conducted. This
is the great purpose to which I look up to America as a na-
val and as a commercial power ; how often have I indulged
myself in these thoughts, unable to see the end of our
glory from the same causes which have destroyed other states,
little dreaming that one infatuated minister could tempt, se-
duce, and persuade a whole nation to cut the strings of such
harmony. An honourable • gentleman who opened the de-
bate, has remarked how we recovered from the interruptions
of our commerce during the last war. The honourable gen-
tleman forgets that we had the free and interrupted resource^
of America during the last war ; that in seizing the sl^ips
of our enemies we added to the national wealth and increased
our own commerce; the progress was double, here it runs in
an inverse proportion, no man knows the final effects as yet ;
like the bursting of a burning mountain, it is sport and play to
P 2 the
112 PARLIAMENTARY A. ijjs.
the distant spectators who think themselves safe, but the crap^
tion may spread to cover this city in ruin.
I come now to consider the consequence of all diose mea-
sures supposing we should succeed. If national strength is
to be calculated from the fitness of every part to preserve and
hnprove the advantages of their constitution and to support
their country in pursuit of its objects ; if institutions that
secure property and prevent oppression, encourage the
settlement of ramilies, and facilitate the rearing of chil-
dren, are the most favoural?le to mankind and therefore tor
be protected and preferred, as tlie best writer on government
has asserted, surely the establishments of the English colo-
nies, as excelling all others which have appeared in the his-
tory of the world, deserve to be revered in this respeft. But
a success in the present war, after destroying all the princifdesi
which have produced those glorious efFefts in civil society^
must leave' the country desolate, must spread through that
wide ddhiinion, forfeitures, executions, change of property,
military oppression, and every misery that can engender ha-
tred and distract mankind. But these are but temporary
evils, in comparison to the last dreadful catastrophe. It must
establish a military despotism in the colonies, which the re-
venues of ;m oppressed people ne\'er can pay. An army that
the men of this country can never supply, which therefore
fbreign mercenaries must fill, and all this with additional -
powers in the crown, that must end in the subversion of the
constitution. I make no doubt many ncien labour in the
support of this business, purposely to effect that end. The
contentions in a free government do not accord with tlicir
feeble, corrupt, luxurious dispositions. That the spirit of
the people should so long lie deceived by their arts and
management, is to me astonishing. I sliall wait patient-
ly some farther calamity, for no reasoning on the certain
progress of things in a growing empire can affect their nar-
row minds. That this may soon happen in a small degree,
as the only means of saving the dissolution of the whole, I
sincerely wish, for the good of the public; misfortunes if
duly watched arc oftentiiifes as profitable to an unfeeling
multitude as they are useful to private individuals. But let
those who now enconra^^e measures that must inevitably end
in such di'cadfid calamities, beware of the turn of the tide.
Let them look into history, and remember the fate of cruel,
oppressive and arrogant statesmen. Let even kings attend to
the examples which history presetits on this subjeft— but I
Hame
A. 1775, O E B A T E S. ^13
felairie ndt them ; it is unnatural for beings, with humaj}
passions, placed in such high situations, mijcing little with
men, and generally deceived, to bear contradiction to their
will,- and opposition even to their arms, with any degree of
patience: irritation and resentment must be the consequences j
encroachments on their part often proceed from a conscious
reiflitude of their own intentions : bm the people I dq
blame is the members of this House, placed as the guardians
of the people's fights and privileges, daily sacrificing them to
some interested motive. Let any one consider all the na-
tional advantages that can be drawn from colonies, and
ask his own heart, if we have not hitherto drawn, and mav
not in time to come draw all these from the ancient consti-
tution. To what motive then can these innovations be im-
puted ? I have shewn you the bad consequences in proceed-
ing, shew me the good you propose from slaughter and dc*
Vastation ; .th^t the paymaster of the forces should urge
you to those measures, that the treasurer of the navy should
press for large equipments ; that contraAors, jobbers, dealers
in scrip, and all those who fatten on public supplies,- should
iCagerly concur, this I can easily imagine 5 but that a landed
gentleman should give his consent to rush' into a civil war,
that must entail four shillings land-t^x on his estate for ever,
that must drain him of men and money, and all the resources
of naval power, to prote<Sl his country against those neigh-
bouring powers who will, in all human probability, attack
him when defenceless and exhausted ; in a contest that must
end, on whatever .ake]?native, in lowering the value of his
estate. All this exhibits a degree of infatuation, beyond ex^
ample in my little reading, and can only be accounted for
from the revival of ignoHe jjartyKiistin^ions, gratifying re-
sentments at the expetice or their countiy. Have the coun-
try gentlemen eyer considered the expence of maintaining a
war across the Atlantic ? Have they considered ^he expences
.of a fleet i Have they calculated the amount of transports ?
Have they thought of feeding an army v/ith porter, sheep,
^id sdur-crout across a tempestuous ocean ? I a^n told a cu-
rious speftade of such management has lately been exhibited
in the Dosvns, whe^re flowing carcases of dead sheep have
marked to passing nations the folly of such attempts. The
proje<St of sour-croHt has indeed one ci^'cum stance attending
Jt that gives me pleasure — I understand the contrail is giveij
to one of the worthiest men in the community ; at the
$axl^e jixne such magazines are new in fny notions of war ^
P3 i^
214 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
it may be a proper preparation for a Russian army, but I be-
lieve English soldiers will hardly be delighted with such grip-
ing food. The project of calcining ice into gun-powder is
not more truly ridiculous ! I shall suppose then for a moment^
that, war with America is really necessary 5 yet will any man
alledgc, after such gross mismanagement in every part, that
these are the proper men to carry it on. Has there been con-
sistency in any part of their conduA ? Has one scheme they
have offered succeeded ? Has not every one produced a con-
trary effeft ? Have they not been told so at the time of pass-
ing their various laws ? Have they been checked in any of
their intentions ? Has any uncommon accident of wind or
weather been unfavourable ? Can our affairs be possibly in a
yroTse situation ? Do they state any rational plan of ways and
means, by which we are to extricate ourselves ? If after an-
swering all those questions in the spirit of truth and justice^
this House will still persist in supporting such feeble ministers
of so mighty an empire, I must submit to a majority, but
with this melancholy consolation, when the day of tri-
bulation shall come, that at least my feeble endeavours were
not wanting to prevent the impending mischiefs 5 nor has my
voice been lent on any occasion in support of oppression.
Other gentlemen of a contrary opinion to me, have declared
th^y give their opinion for more coercive measures, from
motives the most pure and disinterested : I declare I give my
opinion against them, from the sincerest belief, they are op*
pressive and unjust. I am now at an age when my charafter
must be fully known. A condudt in life that has not flat-
tered the passions of men must have frequently called forth the
examination of many with keen resentments : but I here defy
any man to say I was ever a<Sluated by interested motives
during the course of my life. My conduct at present is in-
fluenced from a conscientioys belief, that the greatest goo4
any man can perform, is to preserve institutions favourably
to the freedom of mankind j the greatest evil they can conv-
tnit, is to destroy them. In that belief I heartily vote for the
amendment, and to the utmost of my power oppose this sah«
guinary address.
Right honourable George Rice said generally, that the con»
quest of America was a popular measure in England.
Lord Stafjley, said, he rose in the name of the freeholders
of Lancashire, to avow the addresses from Manchester, &€♦
which he was well persuaded was the sense of the freeholder^
A:i77r*- DEBATES. iij
Honourable Temple I^uttrel, We might rcasotiahly suppose,
that the mmisters who had a hand in fabricating this volumi-
niJus speech, would be impatient to obtain our approbation
and thanks as representatives of the community in general,
in the name of the people of Great Britain, who are our ac-
tual constituents ; ^in tne name of the people of America,
who, as they tell us, are our virtual constituents*
Those evil' counsellors who have so long poisoned the ear
of the Sovereign, would now make us believe they have
perverted his principles also ; they wish us to consider the
speech before you as conveying his Majesty's own sentiments
and resolves. Sir, we know that to be impossible. Our
King is too humane, and besides, too well acquainted with
the history of this country and its constitution, with the me-
moirs of the Stuart race, %pd of his own illustrious house, to
imbibe the despotic doctrines here imputed to him. His Wkw
jcsty knows, that whenever either of the three estates of thi^
empire, or the whole in conspiracy together, shall arrogate
power to which they are incompetent, such as infringing the
original rights and liberties of the people in any part of the
British dominions, it is the exertion of such power, not the
resistance to it, which constitutes rebellion. If this be not
the case, the glorious Revolution was^ above all rebellions
upon record, the most atrocious.
We who are the deputies of the people, assembled toge^
ther from the different counties, cities, and boroughs of the
kingdom, ought faithfully to impart to his Majesty the real
wishes and dispositions of his subjects. As the first coun-
sellors of the crown, it is our peculiar province to advise
and direft his Majesty on every national emergency like the
present. But, Sir, in order to qualify us so to do, affec-
tion to our king, obligation to our country, and sober wis-
dom, all combine in requiring the closest and most deliberate
discussions, and the deepest researches into the true bias of
the times, previous to the offering up any address to the
throne whatever. An address at such a crisis las this, upon
such important and decisive matters, cannot be considered
as a mere point of etiquette, or personal compliment to our
Sovereign ; if it could, there is not a member of this House
would be more forward in duty and obseqiiiousness than my-
self. Are we not totally ignorant of the real state of Great
Britam and her colonies ? Sir, the sense of the society at
large, is not to be ascertained by the signature of a score of
provincial corporations, under corrupt ministerial influence ;
it is not to be ascertained by the voice of repletion and re-
P 4 velrjr.
216 P A R L I A M £ N T A R Y A. tyjf,
velry, by a few mistaken individuals, brought together under
the hospitable rdof of a great baron's castle. Sir, withia \
tKose battlements Kings are not, now-a-days, made or uik*
made;|| it is not to be ascertained by, the cry of a few. Tory
justices, dudtile magistrates, huddled together by their crc2^
tor, the Lord Lieutenant of the county, to approve of pro-*
scriptions and proclamations, devised in councils where he
himself takes the lead as president. * Sir, I will tell the
. noble Lord who spoke last, f that if the people of Laiicastp*^
Liverpool, and Manchester, were the oracles of British law
and policy, the eleftors of Hanover had never swayed the
imperial sceptre of this realm. I admire, however, the 5pi«»
rited zeal and consistency of the addressing inhabitants of
that part of England j I admire thei^firm reverence for thp
divine authority of Kings, their defence of popery, of arbitrary
goveirnment, and sword law. Tflne same political tenets
which now fill t\ic heads of theje loyal addressers, filled ^sp
the heads of their townsmen in forty-five and forty^ix%
Those heads, which being impaled over Temple-bar in the
last Whig reign, were soon after the commencement of the
present, w^icn a mighty Northern Thane came into pfiice.9
taken down with veneration, and are now, 'tis said, cn^
shrined in a certain inte;-:or cabinet, where a Right Honourr
able houshold officer in my eye, and others of the White
Rose junto, frequently offer upon a bended knee their se-
cret oraison and incense. Sir, the noble Lord who spoke last*
and the Right Honourable member who delivered his senti-
ments earlier in the debate, have assured yoU| $ that- the
sense of this country is against the Americans. I am con^
fident, as well from the intelligence I have been able to pro-
cure from a multitude of persons widely different in station
and description, as by my own remarks in the progress of
many a journey through the interior of this island during
the summer season, that the sense of the mass of th^ people
is in favour of the Americans. They think that the provo-
cation given by a rash and insufficient ministry to the colony
of Massachusetts Bay, in lawless and oppressive exaftions, en-^
forced by famine, devastation, and slaughter, at length con-^
s%itutionally justified an appeal to arms. A very learned judge
II Alluding to the famous Earl of Warwick, who alternately
deposed Henry VI. and Edward IV.
♦ Earl Gower, in the county of Stafford.. •
f Lord Stanley.
/ Lord Stanley and Mr. Rice.
A-i?7y* DEBATES. ntj
vho now does signal honour to their coif^ assures us> in his
excellent book of commentaries, that every freeman is war-
ranted in the use of arms for defence of his rightful posses-*
sions and liberty ? And that great limiinary of his protcssJon,
Lord Chief Justice Hch, in pronouncing judgment on the
memorable case of Tooly and Dekins, says, ** When the li-
berty of the subject is invaded, it is a provocation to all the
subjects of England.", Where then will these grievances, this
civil war and carnage, terminate ? I shall now borrow the
words of Sir Charles Sedley, in the last age, to express my
isstonishinent, that a nation sick at heart, as our's is, should
wear so florid a countenance. But, Sir, is it not that heftic
bloom which is frequently found to accompany a radical de-
pay of the constitution, or rather some artificial beautificr
spread over the surface of a cadaverous substance, for popular
show and delusion ? We liave heretofore found it expedient^
when this kingdom has been shaken to its foundation from
one extremity to the other, as it now aihially is 5 when the
original compact between the governing power and the subject
has been differently construed, and in danger of being totalljr
dissolved ; I say, Sir, that the Commons in Parliament as-
sembled, have found it expedient to enquire in the first place
into the a^al state and condition of the nation in general :
ifor this we have a recent precedent, almost within the me-
mory of man, not stridlly speaking in the journals of the Par-
liament, but in the journals of a national and constitutional
assembly, which has done more good than all your Parlia-
ments since the. days of Henry III. put together, which re-
stored and established on a firm basis the Protestant religion,
and civil liberties of the people, and which brought in the
ajniable families of Nassau and of Brunswick, to maintain that
religion, and to proteft us.in the enjoyment of those liberties ;
I mean, SirJ the' Convocation, or Congress, in the year 1688,
whose afts and resolutions ought, like the leaves or the sybilsf
of old, to be sanfbimoniously reverted to, at all times of state
perplexity and peril : I therefore desire, that the motion made
at the opening o^ this Congress, commonly called the Con-
vention Parliament, ^nd which was tlie groimd-work of the
Revolution, be liow read.*
The motion was then read, which stands upon the Jour-
pals in the following words : *^ That the House do appoint
a day to take into consideration the state and condition of the
natiqpi," which motion passed^ mmine contradicentey for the
Monday following,
I nof
2f8 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
I now move you, Sir, that this House <io appoint a day to
take into consideration the present state and condition rf
Great Britain and her colonies^ in order to ground thereupon
an affeftionate and dutiful address to the crown, in an
answer to his Majesty's, speech this day delivered from the
throne.
I am sorry not to see the Honourable Member who pro-
posed, and so ably supported this address, now in his seat,
or I flatter myself he would acknowledge his motion prcma-
lure, and admit of the necessity to take the preliminary step
of ascertaining the temper and resources of Great Britain Ind
her colonies, in order to address his Majesty with good ef-
feft 5 -when we shall, I trust, open his eyes to the manifold
impositions put upon his royal confidence, by some dark and
dangerous parricides, ambushed too near the throne,, and
help him to restore that peace, good order and happiness,
throughout all his dominions, without which it b impossible
that he can continue to reign over us with security 5 or that
so pious and benevolent a prince as he is, though he wears
the most brilliant diadem in Christendom, can make it sit
easy on his brow.
General Conway^ against the address, apologized for op^
posing the king's servants, but thought it his duty to oppose
this address, because it approved of the American war. He
condemned that war as cruel, unnecessary, and unnatural;
called it a butchery of his fellow subjects, to which his consci-
ence forbade him to give his assent. Though joined with the
king's servants, he detested that principle of implicity sup-
porting every measure of government 5 and was severe upon
those ofiicers of the crown, who, because they are linked
with others in adpiinistration, think they are bound to wade
though thick and thin with their colleagues. He demanded,
with an emphasis, what was the state otthe British empire in
America ? called upon the noble lord in the blue ribbon [lord
North] to give it, or at least to lay some information of the
state of affairs in America before the House. Asked admini-iJ
stration what part of America was to be called their own ?
Is Canada yours ? he said ; Is Halifax yours ? At this time,
is even Boston yours ? It is reported, that Boston is to be
abandoned ; where then are the troops to be landed in the
spring ? Are they, like the first emigrants fin>m this country,
to sail along the coast till they find a place ? He reprobated
the idea of conquering America, declared explicitly against
the right of taxation, and wished to see the declaratory law
repealed, since so bad an us^ h^d b^^ made of it.
A» 1775- DEBATES. 219
Lord George Germahie replied, in favour of the address ; but
did not say any thing new, except that he had received ^ letter
from General Burgoyne, v^rho said, tliat notwithstanding the
distresses and obstacles the King's troops met with, they were
zealous and determined in defence of their country.
Capt. LuttrelL I confess that I do not feel much surprize
at the inflammatory language of some gentlemen opposite to
me, for I am persuaded from the vindi^^ive, cruel, and oppres-
sive measures they have recommended and pursued towards
our fellow subjefts in America, during the recess of Parlia!-
ment, they determine to stake the prosperity of both countries
to their own emolument and revenge, and at every risque to
endeavour to keep their places as long as they can, without at-
tending to reason, humanity, justice, or good policy ; there-
fore with them, as with the mercenary and necessitous^ it may
be in vain to argue, for they will probably be found as callous
to conviction as the leaders of administration are, who instead
of being convinced of the fatal errors they have already been
guilty of, by the most horrid scenes of bloodshed, seem with
equal rashness to be precipitating tlie colonies, the West-India
islands, this country and all its dependencies, into every species
of wretchedness, poverty, disorder, and distress, that can ren-
der us miserable or contemptible abroad. But, Sir, a chance
still remains that we shall be able to avert these impending
dangers •, it is that we may meet proteftion from the indepen-
dent gentlemen of England, and from those who have been
deceived by the misrepresentations of such artful and designing
men as I shall endeavour to mark by separating the voice of
faction from that of truth. We have found, Sir, by woefiil
experience from which side of the House misinformation ha^
hitherto come. The noble Lord and his adherents, to obtain
the support of those whom no pri\'ate interest or party zeal
could bias, assured us in the last session of Parliament, with
a confidence and plausibility too sufficient to impose upon
such as neither doubted their integrity, nor were aware of the
enthusiastic spirit for liberty which at that time prevailed
throughout all America, that the dispute was by no
means of the ialarming ijature gentlemen apprehepded ; that
it was a contest between a single province and this country ;
that the Americans in general were friends to government,
and waited but the arrival of a single regiment to manifest their
approbation of measures, which we were told, were just, poli-
tical, necessary, and eventually would prove successful. The
poble Lord had not a single doubt, but that peace, reconcilia-
tion, apd goo4 fellowship would take place spccdUy, happily,
and
220^ PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775*
and without bloodshed : but he assured us, if the contest ccm-
tinued we stood upon groimd that would enable us to enfbiPE^
by arms an acquiescence with those laws we had a right to
impose. That the Insurgents neither merited protcftion from
this nor from that side the water, for they had added the crime
of the highest ingratitude to illegal resistance 5 that the late
war was an American war, undertaken merely for their pfOtf
tection and support, which had involved this country 'in a
teavy debt, and now they refused to contribute to it *, in short>
that the contest was whether New England or Old England
should get th^ better ; though I fear this will prove the most
losing game, on both sides, that ever was played j for no pe-
netrating eye yet can discern if the vidtors or the vanquished will
eventually be the greatest sufferers. Sir, a right honourable
member too, who enjoys a very beneficial employment, told
us, for our comfort, that our fellow subjefts in America wer^
indiscriminately a race of cowards ; that ^hey would not abide
the resolves of the congress, nor ever be brought to face Ge-
neral Gage's army ; Sir, with language like this, dressed in
the best attire 6f eloquence to render it persuasive, and the
temporary bait of three shillings land-tax, of which I fear we
may take our leave for ever, have administration endeavour-
ed to lull gentlemen into a political lethargy 5 if with success, I
hope they will awake at this critical moment, and pause at
least before they concur farther in measures which must render-
us a nation bankrupt in men, in treasure, and in consequence.
Now, Sir, what did we learn from this side of the House, and
-from some gentlemen near me of rank, property, charaa«*|
and integrity ? Why, that administration were either very ill
informed themselves, or meant to deceive iis ; that the dispute
was unfortunately of a more serious tendency than probably
any gentleman had formed an idea of; that it was by no means
what the noble Lord represented, a partial dispute between a
single province and this country, but the manly, firm, laur
dable, and constitutional efforts of free-bom subjects to pre-?
serve, at the risque of their lives, that liberty with which their
forefathers emigrated, and which have been hitherto (long
may it continue so) the natural produce of this soil j that the
late a£h of Parliament respe<Sting America were reprobate4
from one end of that continent to the other, as the most arbi-
trary violation of the liberties of mankind in general, and of
their rights and privileges as English subjects in particular,
which they would never sacrifice to the pride, ambition, op
persecution of any set of ministers whatsoever. Now, Sir, by
truth's £kir test let the foes as well as tht fak-uia oi ^m«lca be
A. 1775. DEBATES- iir
judged. Was the dispute of the trifling nature government
represented, and are the Americans so easily to be vanquished?
Have they not hitherto conformed to the resolves of the con-'
gress as minutely as to any laws upon the face of the earth ?
Will they not fight in a just cause r and may they not even be
provoked to face General Gage's army? In short, Sir, has not
the notorious fallacy of every argument of administration in
the course of a very few. months, been made manifest to the
universe ? But I am aware it will be said by some, that the
Americans are neither exonerated from the charge of ingrati**
tude, nor an attetnpt to become an independent state. To these
I answer, that these are assertions weak and absurd as those I
have recapitulated, and will e<|ually fail in proof 5 for yoti
must either deny that America is like any other mercantile na-
tion, which derives its wealth and consequence from com-
merce ; or admit that without one ship of force to boast d^
Ac must for the present at least, and probably for a century to
come, seek the proteftion of some great maritime power, tft
be subjeft every day to have her coasts insulted, or her trad^
destroyed, by the most piratical petty states tliat can boast a
musquetto fleet, in the Hke manner they now unfortunatch^
and unjustly experience from the fonnidable navy of Englana>
whose interest as well as duty it is to proteft and defend them.
Sir, on the score of ingratitude, I must observe, that where
great nations, like France and England, ever jealous of the
power of each other, feel themselves in a situation to take up
arms, they will not be long finding an occasion ; but it so
happens tfiat the first hostilities previous to the late war com*
menced in Asia, not in America, the battle of Arcot was fought
by LordQive (then Captain Clive) against the French; that of
Trichihopoly by major Lawrence, and a powerful fleet order-
W to India, under the command of the admirals Watson and
Pocock, before the French were known to have committed any
encroachments on the Ohio; but. Sir, the ministers of those
days, iii every respeft very unlike the present, regarded America
as a mine of inestimable value to this country, and were there-
fore tenacious of every acre of that possession; they had spirit
enough to resent the irreults of foreign powers, and wisdom
enough to see the importance of the contest ; that it was not
merdy whether you would suflTer the French to harass our
fcHow-^subjefts in America, which humanity or justice ought
to have fprbid their acquiescence in, but that it was of no less
moment, than whether the- colonies should remain dependent
tipon England, or become an appendage to the crown of
France* Sir, the Frendi at that time were not only masters
aaa PARLIAMENTARY A. 177;*
of the best fortresses and most accessible harbours in America,
but of a vast traft of territory there, exclusive of the great pos-
sessions of the Indians, whom they had artfiilly, politicly, and
jndustri6usly gained over to their religion and interest, by
whose assistance they defeated your army under general Brad-
dock, and would probably have become masters of the coun-
try, had you not fortimately intercepted their reinforcements
and beat them at sea. Sir, the advantages you derived Jfrom
that viftory, to the fetal hour in which you madly threw them
aw^y, I will not take up the time of the House to enumerate,
though they are very many that fall within the scope of my
superficial knowledge •, I will only say, that in addition to the
increase of some millions annually to your public stock, the
wealth, prosperity and consequence of yoiu- West-India islands
are all derived from America; she. Sir, has ftimished them
with the necessaries of life, and with almost every kind of store
fitting to carry on their works. She has taken in barter their
rum and molasses; the sugars have been mostly sent to this
country, and the nett produce of them circulated amongst us.
Now, Sir, the planter may seek a distant market for his comr
modities ; he must purchase his stores with specie at vast dis^
advantage 5 part of his plantation will be turned into pro-
vkion grounds, and the losses he daily sustains by this unfor-
tunate dispute will inevitably encrease every hour it continues i
but I cxpeft to be told, as we were last year, that these are inia-
ginary grievances, temporary inconveniences, and short lived
distresses. Here, Sir, admitting that the late war was un-
dertaken merely for the support and advantage of the Ameri-
cans, then. Sir, to them we fortunately owe the great and
flourishing state of this nation at its conclusion. How unlike
Sir, was that war to the present ! It was constitutional, ho-
nourable, popular, prosperous, and glorious. This, Sir, i0
tmnatural, unjust, unprofitable, cruel, and revengeful. It
commenced. Sir, in ignorance and despotism, and is piursuing
with a rancour bordering upon madness, which can end, at
best, but in the destruftion of your colonies, with the loss o£
your troops. 'Jlien, Sir, is the lives of the bravest and
most valuable ofiicers and soldiers this or any other country
ever produced, the only tribute that can satiate the blind
passion and revenge of administration ? Why will they not
relax a little, and be satisfied to entrust the execution of their
blood-thirsty measures to such as are better suited to the tem-
per and disposition of their employers. I mean their fevouritc
army of bigptted Canadians, and Roman Catholic marines,
now raising in Irel^d, and fitting for such laudable purposes.
They,
A, 1775- DEBATES. 223
They, Sir, are the natural enemies of both , countries, and
if they prove successful, will be ready to obey the first beck
of their masters, and return with swords stained in the blood
of every American province to enforce either the declara-
tory aft, a popery bill, or any arbitrary assessment of ad-
ministration in Ireland. For we have been told by very pre-
vailing authority, [Mr. Rigby and Mr. Charles JenkinsonJ
that the establishment of their Parliament does not preclude
us from taxing them, which we may, and ought to do when-
ever we judge proper j for that the Irish had the power to
make bye-laws, but nothing more. Indeed, the minister of
that House of Commons insists that this is but the rash opi-
nion of some individuals; not that of government; I wish
he may be right, for I fear the Whigs and Protestants of that
country would be able to make but a faint resistance against
such an army. Which way they might probably be next
disposed of, I will not venture to foretell. But however please
ing or beneficial the smiles or friendship of ministers may be^
it is with a heart-felt satisfaftion I refleft that I diiSer
as widely in principle as in politics from a set of men, whose
aii;a I am afraid is the subversion of the constitution, whose
delight appears to be la blood, and in destroying the peace of
millions. >
Colonel Barre entered minutely into the particulars and
consequences of the summer campaign, described the situation
of the King's forces as on a wen, or little excrescence of land,
blocked up within the town of Boston, and the fleet not even
];naster of the river in which It lies; he drew a conclusion, that
if an armv of 22,000 of oiu: forces, with 20,000 provincials and
a fleet of*^ twenty-two sail, of the line, with more than as many
frigates, were three years in subduing Canada, though com*
"pleated every spring — ^what little prospect could there be for
10,000 men to effeft tlie conquest of all America. — He told
the minister tliat as he expefted but little information from
him, he would give him some: that he had received a letter
from a Major Caklwell who was settled on a large estate in
Canada, who assured him that the Canadians were not by
any means to be driven into the war ; that he had tried the
arts of persuasion in vain ; that he assembled about 1 200 of
them together, who came with large sticks, but had conceal-
ed 400 firelocks in the wooiis, which they were determined
to make use of against the English, if they forced theni to
take either side. He said, that General Carlcton and Lord
Pitt, were within a quarter of an hour of falling into the
hands of Jeremiah Duggan, a barber, who was now a Major
in
W4 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^
in die Provindals. He laid the blood of his gaHaoit friend
Ck>lonel Abercrombie at the Minister's door; a man, who];a'
fdTticuhr circumstances (which, he could not then mention,
llut which the noble Lord was well acquainted with) should
have secured him from such a fete. He added, as to himself he
stood there, it vras true, an humble individual, brought into
Pariiament with reluftance on his own part, by the hand of
friendship; that his Majesty thought proper to call him into
his service; but, when the* matter of general warrants was
discussed in the House, and his conscience direfted him to
oppose the measure, which he modestly did by a silent vote, a
younger officer was purposely put over his head, as an intima**
tion that his services were no further necessary ; he retired^
without repining, on a scanty pittance, as he would have done
to the most mortifying state, without a murmur. His Ma*
jesty again thought proper to call him into his service, and
made him one of the joint vice-treasurers of Ireland, which he
held but a short time,, owing to a change of both men and mea-
sures. Since that time, he had retired with the name indeed of
Colonel ; yet, in truth, simply but Mr. Barre. He desired the
noble L6rd before him, to say if he had ever. solicited the smiles
of government: nay, ministers had empowered him since the last
sessions to say more ; — but he should be silent.— In touching
on the war-office arrangements, in America, he said, though
he had lost one eye in America, he had still one military eye
left, v/hich did not deceive him. The Americans had been'
called cowards; that the noble Lord at the head of the admi-
ralty had wimtonly raked up the ashes of a deceased admiral,
to confirm his hasty assertion ; but now he had sent for a liv*
ing admiral home, to give the departed one the lie; as td
cowards> they Avere certainly the greatest to his knowledge ;
for the 47th regiment of foot, which behaved so gallantly at
Bunkei-'s-Hill, (an engagement that smacked more of defeat
than vidtory) — the very corps that broke the whole French
column, and threw them in such disorder, at the siege of
Quebec, was three parts composed of these cowards. — He
would not say much of himself in a military capacity, to give
weight to this account; yet it could not but be flattering to
him to retle<Et, that the dead Wolfe, and the living, Amherst,
honoured him with their esteem. — He animadverted with great'
severity on the Minister having said some time ago, that if
Parliament would give him the men and money he asked, he
would immediately pilot them safe through this American!
storm. He then ric^iculed the absurdity of General Gage's
signing the flowery answer to General Washington's clear and
manly
A. 1775- DEBATES. 225
manly letter : afiirmed that the letter was not the composition
of the commander in chief, l?ut that he was compelled to.
father it by superior powers. H^ was a good officer, but a
plain nian. Spoke highly of General Howe, and GenersJ
Washington^ He concluded, with a recommendation to the
minister, to embrace the present, the only moment tolerated
by Heaven for an accommodation with the Americans, j if
they were driven a step farther in resistance, the whole Ame-
rican coilitinent was lost for ever. He said, as he had meii-
tioned General G^e's letter, a quotation from it might now
supply him with a general inference, with which he would
conclude, as a seasonable memerfio to administration. — Be
template in political disquisition ; give free operation to truths
and pufush those nvho deceive and misrepresent ; . and not only
the effedis^ but. the causes ^ of this unhappy conflict will be re"-
nDaved*
Lord Barringtpn denied the disaffeftion of the officers, &c«
assured the House, that they would receive satisfaftory ac-
counts to the contrary in seven or eight days.
Mr. JFedderbume replied to Colonel Barr6, accused him of
drawing false inferences from his own premises; defended
vigorous measures against America v Said sixty thousand men
ought to be sent to reconquer th^it country ; it was a system
that must be pursued with spirit, even though we lost all the
towns and provinces upon that continent, to put us upon a
proper footing to negociate with them.
Mr. Burie repeated some expressions of Lord North, on
American affairs, some time since; such as, that he would
bring the Americans to his feet, &c. and contrasted them
with the late events in America ; which caused a good deal
of laughter. He afterwards compared the Americans to a
people who had emancipated themselves, and described the
mother-country as a piratical disturber of the ports and trade
of the colonies. He spoke largely on the disgrace brought
iipon the British arms, by being cooped up a whole campaign
in Boston, by those who had been called an undisciplined
cowardly rabble. He strongly represented the danger to
Great Britain in carrying on the American war ; and con-
cluded with advising the ministers to meet America with a
firiendly countenance, nor longer let England appear like a
porcupine, armed all over with afts of Parliament, oppressive
to trade and America.
Mr. C. Fopc described Lord North as the blundering pilot
who had brought the nation into its present difficulties. Ad-
ministration^ he said, exult at haying brought us into this di-
.Vol. n. . Q lemma.
^26 PARLIAMENTARY- A.ij75.
lemma. They have reason to triumph. Lord Chatham^ the
king of Prussia, tiay, Alexander the Great, never gained mcn^
in one campaign than the noble Lord has lost — ^he has lost a
whole continent. Although h^ thought the Americans had gone
too far, andwcre not justifiable in what they had done, yet they
were more justifiable for resisting, than they would have been
had they submitted to the tyrannical a£h of aBritish parliaMetit
^^that when the question was, whether a pe<^e ought to sub-
mit to slavery, or aim at fireedom by a spirited resistance, the
alternative which must strike every Englishman was, thfe
choice of the latter. He took occasion to speak of his father,
and the flufhiation of ministers at the commencement of the
last war. He declared his father was secretary erf" state only
four months, and finding himself without power, and merely
-a nominal minister, he did as every man of sipirk ^ould do
on such an occasion, he gave up his place. He then appKed
this observation to the noble Lord on th^ Treasury-bttich,
and in a very pointed manner intimatedthat it was high timfe
a change of men took place, that a change of measui^ itiight
accompany it. He took occasion to meiition th&- political
distinctions of Whig and Tc^, and describing the present mi-
tiisters as enetoies to freedom, declared, they were tories. He
made a comparison between the conduct of administration and
the conduct df America, shewing the weakness, the error,
and the imprudence of the former, and the firnlne^ the spi-*
rit, and the just pursuits of the latter. He cdmbated the ar-
gument in die King's speech which ihfert^ that America
iiimed at independency; and by a chain of reasoningfhe shewed,
that tb be pG^nla)- in Americsl it was necessary te t^ of de-
ipendance on Great Britain, and to Hold tMt but as &€ ob-
jeft in pursuit. He rallied Lord North 6n the rapid prtigrcss
he had made in misfortune, having expended nearly as large a
torn to acquire national disgrace as that most aUe xhinister
Lord Chatham had expended in gaining that glcM^ieus lustre
with which he had encircled the British bame. He did not
approve of every thing done by that lioble Lbt-d [Lord Ghat«'
ham] but all must confess his ^eat and surprizing talents as a
minister. He declared oj^ib^ition to b^ tofdiafiv united in
every part* He retoited on administraddh for their haVthg
, last year aroused the younger pail of the Hbuse by theiir ap-*
peals to the spirit of Englishmen to enforce vigorous ifteasutts^
and asked whether that ^irit was disceiixibk in the pitiful
party of the military seht to Boston, 6t ill thei vigcffous mea-
sures of that party; declaring, that if the spirit 5ie ministry
luKlappcakd to wa* still ia c»$t«^^i i\itwiiaL\»jic^ ^wSfete.
A. t^7j:. DEBATES. 227
for them to keep their places. After severely rebuking them
for endeavouring to shift the blame from themselves to Gene-
ral Gage, he concluded with advising administration to plac^
America where she stood in 1763, and to repeal pverjr afl
Eissed sirice that period, which affefted either her freedom or
er commerce.
Lofd North said, he held the pity and contempt of the ho-
nourable gentleman [Mr. Fox] in equal indifference. He de*
clared that the words quoted with so much humour bv thd
hon. gentleman [Mr. Burke] had never been used by him in
the sen^ to which he had applied them, and complained
of the injustice done him both in the English and Ame-
rican news-papers, by printing false accounts of his speeches
in parliament. Respedting the observations made by the last
honourable gentleman [Mr. Fox] on the changes in the mi*
nisterial departments at the commencement oF the war, he
begged the Hoiye to recollect, that though the men were
changed, the same measures were pnrsuecl, but that for hb
own part he wished not to remain a day in« ofBce after he
was thou^t inaftivc, inattentive, or inconsiderate. That if
the scheme of repealing every American act passed sbce \*)6i^
was adopted, there was certainly^ an end to the dispute, for
from that moment America would be independent of Eng-
land. That many of the afls were framed for the necessary
support of the superiority of the mother country, on points
m which hct ri^t of superiority had never been questioned
till America was refi^ftory ; that all of the afls were rather
afts of justice than of cruelty, and that the aft preventing
the colonies from trading with other countries, which the
gentlemen in opposition made so much rout about, was not
passed till the colonies, by a non-importation agreement, had
refiised to trade with England, who had nurtured them to
thcif present greatness, and had therefore, on the principlcg
of gratitude and recompcnce, an exclusive right to the bene-
fits of their commerce. His lordship then said, that if he
understood the meaning of the words Whig and Tory, which *
the last speaker [Mr. Fox] had mentioned, he conceived that
^t was the charafteristic of whiggism to gain as much for the
people as possible, while the aim of toryism was to encrease
the prerogativie. That in the present case, administration
contended for the right of Parliament, while the Americans
talked of their belonging to the crown. Theit lariguaj^e
therefore was that of toryism, although, through the artm
designs of the real enemies bf freedom, the good sense of the
pet^c of England waf endeavoured t<S 1a^ tD\^^d> ^tA^^
528 P Ar R L I A M E N T A R Y A, 1775.
opinions were industriously inculcated throughout the king-
dom^ The speech and the proposed address^ his lordship said^
tied the House down to no point, it could not therefore be
^{ ill consequence to carry the latter to the .throne. That
the measures administration meant now to. pursue, were to
send a powerful sea and land force to America, and at the
same time to accompany them with offers of mercy upon a
j)roper submission. " This (concluded his lordship) will
shew we are in earnest, that we are prepared to punish, but
are nevertheless ready to forgive •, this is, in my opinion, the
most likely means of producing an honourable reconcilia-
tion,"
Mr. Dunning against the address. Had heard it was the
intention of administration to send a large force to America
Ip compel submission, and that foreign troops were introduced
> Into the British dominions for that purpose. He said, the
measure ought not to have been taken without the consent
of Parliament. Without such consent he peremptorily pro-
nounced it to be illegal. To this is to be added, not only
the disgrace, but the bad tendency and evil consequences o£
which this measure may -be produdlive, if suffered to pass into
la precedent. .
The Attorney General [Mr. Thurlow] in support of the ad-
dress, declared that in his opinion there was no illegality in.
V the measure of sending Hanoverian troops to garrison the for-
tresses of Gibraltar and Mahon, and therefore that no bad
tendency or evil consequences could arise from it.
Sir A. Fergussony Mr. Rice^ Mr. Jolliffey and Mr. Freeman^
Spoke fikewise for the address j 2Xii.o\i Edward Astley against
it.
At a quarter past four o'clock in the morning the House di-
vided upon the amendment ; for it 108, against it 278.
/^The following is a I^ist of the Minority upon this Division
Gen. Acour£ Ashe Edmund Biu-ke:
Serj. Adair Lord George Cavendish
. ^ £vdyn Anderson Lord Frederick Cavendish
j5ir Edward Astley Lord John Cavendish
Rt. Hon. Isaac Barrc Lord Richard Cavendish
Charles Barrow Ld.'G. Aug. Hen. Cavendish
Nathaniel Bayly Jervoise Clarke
Lord Ch..Ed. Bentinck Su^ Robert Clayton
Richard Benyon Wenman Coke
Hon. Perto-ine Bertie Rt. Hon. H. S. Conway
Thomas E&and John Cooper
Sir Henry Bridgeman. Ric. Hippis. Coxe
Laurence
A, 1775- P E
Laurence Cox
John Crewe
George Dempster "
John Dunning
Paul Fielde
Savile t'inch
Sir Mich, le Fleming
Thomas Foley, junior
Hon. Charles James Fox
Sir Thomas Frankland
Viscount Folkstone
Ambrose Goddard »
Lord George Gordoa '
Charles Goring
Ralph Gowland
Marquis of Granby
Robert Gregory
James Grenville, junior
Sir William Guise
John Halliday
Rt. hon. W. G. Hamilton
Sir Harboard Harbpard
David Hartley
George Hayley
Richard Hopkins
George Hunt
William Hussey
George Johnstone
John Johnstone
Hon. Augustus Keppd
Lord George Leonox
Sir James Lowther
Earl Ludlow
John. Luther
Hon. Temple Luttrell
Hon. John LuttreU
Joseph Martin
Sir Joseph Mawbey
Hugo Meynell
Sir Thomas Miller
Sir John Molesworth
Crisp Molyneux
BATES. 229
Frederick Montagu
Hans Wintrop Mortimer *
William Needham
Richard Oliver
Henry Pierse
Charles Anderson Pelham
Sir James Pennyman
Nathaniel Poihill
Alexander Popliam
William Pulteney
John Ratcliffe
Sir George Robinso^
Sir John Rush6ut
SamuelSak
Sir George Savile
Sir Charles Saunders
John Sawbridge
lames Scawen
Robert Scott
Charles Fitz. Scudamor^
John Scudamore
Henry Seymour
John Smith
Frederick Standert
Walter Stanhope
Thomas Thoroton
Rt. hon. T. Townshcnd, jiif ,
John Trevannion
George Forster Tuffhcl
Charles Turner
Earl of Tyrconnel
Earl Verhey
Hon. G«o. Venables Vemon
Sir William Wake
Hoix. Thomas Walpole
Hon. Richard Walpole
Hon. R. Boyle Walsinghan> '
William Weddcll.
Viscount Wenman
John Wilkes
Jacob Wilkinson
Sir George Yonge
Tqjilcrs, W, Plummer and G. Byng, Esqrs. 1 10.
^f
^3
ftjO' PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.'
Mr. Speakor laid befc^ the House the following paper. ^
To "the King*s most excellent Majesty, the Lords spiritual
and temporal, and the Commons of Great Britain in Far*
liament assembled.
The address, petition, and memorial of the representatives of
the freeholders of the province of Nova Scotia^ in genen^
assembly. ;^
TOUR loyal and ever dutiful house of assembly of the
province of Nova Scotia, most humbly beg leave to' addresji
our gracious Sovereign, and both Houses of Parliamenti
at this dreadful and alarming crisis, when civil discord, and
its melanchc^y consequences are impending over aU British
America.
A£hiated by the warmest ties of duty and afieAion to the
person and family of our moist gracious sovereign, animated -
with the firmest attachment to the mother country, zealous ^a
support her power and consequence, over all the British di>«.
minions, and dreading a separation from her government and *
protection, as the greatest political evil which can befall us or.
our posterity.
Influenced by the principles of humanity and the just
fights of mankind in civil society, we tremble at the gloomy
jprospeA before us, we feel for our gracious King, we feel
for our mother country, erf" i^hich many of us are natives,
we feel for the British American race, once the most loyal,
fiituous, and happy of mankipd ; animated with such prin^
ciplesy may we not sipprpa(:h the supreme legislature of the
British empire, and as dutiful children of just and indulgent
parents, may we not most humbly solicit for such regula>-
tions as we conceive most likely to pres^tve the inhabitants
of this province in duty and allegiance tp our Kingi in ren*
dering perxnammt their connexion with, and depinidence on
the ^preme legislature of (jrr^t Britain, and preserving in-
"iiolabiy to us, a^d our posterity, the just rights of men in^
civil society.
We are fully sensible tb?t \^e haye no right to pray for
fedress of gnev^mces, to request privileges or regulations, un-
less we acknowledge your right over us*, th^efore^v^e the,
■'■'■'■■ rcpfesen-
* He said be received it durag the recess ^ by the post.
A. I775* DEBATES- 531.
representati'pes of the freehpkkips of NovsirScotia^ do imam*
mouslymosthuinblyacknowled^oiir gracious aovereignGeorge
the Third, kii^. of Great Britain, the Lords spiritual and tem-
poral andtheOMSuaonsof Greg^ ^tain in Parliament assem«r
bledi to be the supreme legislatiuts of this province and of all *
the British domsnions, and that it ^ our indispensableduty to
pay a due {Nroportion of the expence of this great empire.
Ha¥ing thus^ as obedient subjefb, acknowdged our duty
to our l^ngj and our willing submission to the supreme 1&*
gtslature of the British empire> we humbly request the righ(
of being heard in respeft of pur grievances or wishes ; and .
as our proceeding in this assembly may possibly have some
influence with other assemblies in America, we humbly hope
it will not seem presuming if we enter on the subjeA.
We humbly conceive it will be necessary to the peace and
happiness of the British empire, that the tax to be raised in
the colonies, -and which $h^ be at the disposal of the Bri«
tish parliament, and the proportion of each colony toward
the imperial expoice, should be of such a nature, as it may
never after be necessary to alter it.
We are al$o humbly of opinion, that this tax should be
of such a nature as should not depreciate, but should increase
in the same ratio with the affluence of the inhabitants of this
province.
We are also humbly of ' opinioa^ that the tax should bd
of such a nature, as not to be liable to be a£fefted by the
increase or diminution of the- metals of gold and silver in
the world.
From these considerations we humbly oSet k as our opihipn :
that the fittest tax for this purpose would be a duty of so much ^'
per cent, upon all commodities inq>orted into this provinqe|
not being the {H^oduce of the British dominions in Europe ana ;
America, (except the article of bay salt) i this tax tnll in^' '
elude almost all the luxuries made use of, and will increase
in an equal ratio with the affluence of the infaabitudts ; and '
if the rates of the several articles are fixed cvtty ten years, )'
for the future and subsequent tea years, it will ndt be' liable \^^
tQ depreciate in value by the increase i)f the xnetals of gddl '^
and silver. ' /
"We therefore humbly pray that thcmpnm^ legislattre
of the British empire wUl please to accept of a tax as above' '"^
pointed, out ^ and so conscious are we of yoiur j^ntice and hu4''*'
manity, that we request to know what proportion wodd be
pleasing ox ^igreeabk to yoiii reminding ^ou to censidpr, >
Q 4 **»
232- PARLIAMENTARY A-i??^.
that this province having no manufactories or lucrative comn
merce, must ever have a scarcity of specie.
We also humbly pray, that when the exigencies of the
state may require any further supplies from this province^
that then such requisitions may be made in the usual manner
formerly praftised, whereby we may have an opportunity of
shewing our duty and attachment to our Sovereign, and our
sense or the cause for which the requisition is made, by which
means, and that only, out gracious Sovereign can be ac-|
quainted with the true sense of the people in these his distant
. dominions.
We also humbly pray, that you will permit us, and in-
struft your governor to consent to an aft to disqualify and
deprive every member of the community from the rights
and privileges of a subjeft in civil prosecutions, wlio shall
be detefted in any illicit trade or fraudulent dealing, toge^
ther with their aiders, abettors, or concealors, in this or any
other branch of the revenue.
This will render unnecessary a multitude of officers cm-
ployed to detcft illicit trade, and prevent that disgust and
evil spirit which has been created by their insolence, and will
prevent that corruption of manners, and that contempt rf
the crime of perjury, which is now become so open and flai-
grant. We humbly request that vou will appoint good and
sufficient salaries to the oflGicers of the customs, and ^solutely
forbid them to take any fee, in any case whatsoever, as wfc
have found that the detail of revenue^iuty, in all its depart-
ment 5, have been clogged with minccessary forms and trifling
r^gjlations, to increase the fees and perquisites of the offi-
cers ; and are also humbly of opinion that if those officers
wers under the controul of the governor, the coimcil and
judges of the supreme court of this province, it would be
more for the advantage of his Majesty'-s service and the good
of the revenue. We also humbly request, that if the mode
of taxation be pleasing to you, that jou will permit and or-
der the legislative council, and the judges of the supremi^
court for the time being, to determine and'affix the rate of
the taxed articles every ten years for every subsequent ten
years. • /
Y<Jur ever dutiful, loyal, and afFeAionate house of assem-<
bly would not in these unhappy times pr^ume to mention
their own grievances, or request any particular privileges, lest
you should suppose they Were meant conditional of their Just.
duty and Allegiance this day acknowledged: but as the huii>-
* * blQ
A. 1775- DEBATES. 133
ble friends- of our King and mother country, may we not re-
spe£tfiilly point out those measures lurhich may best tend to prc^
sci-ve the inhabitants of this province in loyalty and allegiance,
and although we are not at this time in such circumstances as
to raise a revenue for the support of the interior civil govern?-
ment of this province, agreeable to the present plan estab-
lished by his Majesty, and which seems absolutely neces-
sary for the dignity of government in a country^ whose par-
ticular situation and advantages are such as may probably in-
duce government to order it to be the head quarters of the
British land and sea forces in America. But although we .
may be unable wholly to suppcwrt so large yet necessary civil
list, yet we are willing to set apart a fund for that purpose,
which will necessarily increase with the opulence and nunv-
ber of the inhabitants, and will in time relieve our parent
state from the heavy burthen of our support ; our poverty
36 a province will not prevent a British King and P^liament
from hearing a|id justly relieving us, when as humble and
dutiful subje^, and being well acquainted with this country
and , its inhabitants, we Only beg leave to inform our gra-
cious King and Parliament with the measures which we coiv
ceive would best tend to the peace and happiness of this
country.
We therefore most humbly presume to offer as our opi-
nion, that no native qf this province may ever be Appointed
a governor or lieutenant governor in this province, the am-
bition of affluent individuals in the provinces, to acquire gOk-
vernments, have led to faction and parties, subversive of the
' peace and happiness of the people, the good of the province,
and the honour of government, probably the present disputes
in America may have been promoted by this cause.
We are humbly of opinion that the members of the legis-
lative council should be appointed for life, and that no {lerr-
9on. should be appointed a member of the council, unless he
be possessed of landed property in the province, to t^e value
of one thousand pounds at least ; and we most hiunbly pray
X that no colle6tor or under officer of the customs, or any offi-
cer who is diredtly or indirectly concerned in the collection of
the provincial revenue, may ever be admitted to a seat at the
council board.
We humbly pray, most fervently, that the officers of the
customs, and every officer concerned in collecting the pro-
vincial revenue; may be priohibited from serving as represent
tativcs in general assembly.
Wc
2^ir P A R L 1 ATtt E N T A"R Y A-M?;^.
that this province having no manufactories ot lucrative conin '
merce, nmst ever have a scarcity of specie. -
We also humbly pray, that when' the exigencies of the
state may require any further supplies from this province,
that then such requisitions may be made in the usual manner
formerly pradtised, whereby we may have an opportunity of
shewing our duty and attachment to our Sovereign, and our
sense of the cause for which the requisition is made, by which
means, and that only, out gracious Sovereign can bt ac-*
quainted with the true sense of the people in these his distant
. dominions.
We also humbly pray, that you will permit us, and in-
struft your governor to consent to an aft to disqualify and
deprive every member of the community from the rights
and privileges of a subjeft in civil • prosecutions, who shall
be detefted in any illicit trade or fraudulent dealing, toge-
ther with their aiders, abettors, or concealors, in this or any
other branch of the revenue.
This will render unnecessary a multitude of officers em-
ployed to deteft illicit trade, and prevent that disgust and
evil spirit which. has been created by their insolence, and will
prevent that corruption of riianners, and that contempt oF
the crime of perjury, which is now become so open and fla-
grant. We humbly request that ^ou will appoint good and
sufficient salaries to the officers of the customs, and absolutely
forbid them to take any fee, in any case whatsoever, as w6
have found that the detail of revenue-duty, in all its depart-
ment?, have been clogged with unnecessary forms and trifling
rrgjlations, to increase the fees and perquisites of the offi-
cers ; and are also humbly of opinion that if those officers
were under the controul of the governor, the council and
judges of the supreme court of this province, it would be
more for the advantage of his Majesty's service and the good
of the revenue. We also humbly request, that if the mode
of taxation be pleasing to you, that ybu will permit and or-
der the legislative council, and the judges of the suprem^
court for the time being, to determine and'affix the rate of
the taxed articles every ten years for every subsequent ten
years. ' ^
Ydur ever dutiful, loyal, and affeAionate house of assem-^
Wy would not in these uphappy times pr^ume to mention
their own grievances, or request any particulM* privileges, lest
you should suppose they Were meant conditional of their just-
duty and^Uegiance this day acknowledged: but as the hum-
' '' * blq;
A. 1775: DEBATE S; 235
-throughout this province, sufajeA only to appeals to his Ma-
jesty in council, where the property contested may amount to
five hundred pounds sterling or upwards.
We humbly pray to be delivered from the oppression of
practitioners in the law, and pray that in all civil actions their
fees, charges and perquisites may be limitted to five per
ctnt. on aU sun^ declared for or defended \ it is hot the desire
of our good King to have his quiet and innofiensive subjects
in this quarter m the globe given up to be persecuted by a
few rapacious men.
Most benign King, your Majesty was graciously pleased to
grant trafts of land in this province, upon various conditions
pi settlement and payment of quit-rents, many of the condi-
|:ions of settlement were impra^cable, and others so expen^
sive, that the grantees were not able folly to effeft them, wc;
humbly pray to be exonerated from those severe conditions>
and th^t you will gi-aciously limit the. power of the court of
escheats to 4c&ults in the payment of the quit-rent cmly«
This house is !?brry to ohsorve that most cruel use has been
made of this power of escheating land, even to the depriving •
of two old officers of the gratuity given them by your Majesty
for near forty years of military service, and that to gratify
two domestics of that governor who ordered the escheat-
ment ; and at this time ^ tra£t of land is advertised to be
escheated, on which the proprietors have laid out neai* four
thousand pounds.
Finally, we most hijmbly request that the assembly of thi«
province may be called together annually, and that no gover-
nor may be allowed to dissolve or prorogue them when he
^all be informed that they are preparing a petition to oiu:
gracious King and Parliament of Great-Britain.
Most gracious Sovereign, we have unhappily experienced
that the redress of our grievances, and those requested regur
latipns, cpul^ ^o^ come from us in the constitutional mode of
. law% ^hich must have passed a council, some of them with^~
put property in the province or interest in our welfare.
May the God of ill goodness fhpwer down on oiu* gracious
Sovereign and his beloved fan^Jy, every temporal blessing.
May the spirit of concord, justice and public virtue dire£^
the councils of the British senate, and may the Father of
mercies preserve constitutional freedom to the Briti sh race in
pvcry part of the globe. yf. NESBITT, Speaker^
- Halifaic^ Jane 2/^ I'jTi.
Paoter
236 PARLIAMENTARY; A. 1775:
Oifober 27.
' Mr Ackland reported the address agreed to yesterday,
Mr. Hartley pressed Lord North to declare, that it shpulc^
be understood, that agreeing to the report now brought up
by- Mr. Ackland should not be deemed a full and decisive ap*
probation of its contents, nor preclude the Hotee in any man-
ner from taking the measures recommended in it, into con*
sideratian on any future day*
Mr. j^/Wltfe approved of this caution and hesitation of the
honourable gentleman [Mr. Hartley] and thought the advice
extremely necessary. . ,
Sir Matthew White Ridley said, he had gone along with the
minister during the last session of Parliament, upon the sup-
position that his information regarding America was authen-
tic and to be depended upon ; but now that he found it was
otherwise, he went away last night without giving any vote> a
conducSl he wished to avoid, and therefore he* called upon the
minister to lay sufficient information before the House, that
gentlemen might know the ground upon which they were to
proceed./
Lord North declined complying with these requests : but
siid, in general, that the navy and army would be taken into
consideration in the course of the week, arid he believed that
either of the days appointed for that piu-pose would be the most
proper time for stating obje(5lions, or framing any motion.
This answer brought up Mr. Poivys^ who moved to recom-
mit t'le address ; in order to leave out what related to the
Hanoverian troops, viz. " We thankfully acknowledge the
gracious considerations which induced your Majesty to send a
part of your elet toral troops to the garrisons of Gibraltar and
Mahon, in order that a larger number," &e. This changed
the debate to the general subjeft of America.
[On tliis subjedi: of the Hanoverian troops, the arguments
were chiefly directed against that paragraph in the address
which thanks his Majesty for his gracious • consideration,
in sending part of his eledboral troops to garrison the
fortresses of Gibraltar and lyilnorca. Those who condemn-
ed the paragraph argued against its illegality, its being . ex-p
pressly repugnant to the Bill of 'Rights; and, above all,
its being a precedent of a most alarming and dangerous ten-
dency, as it recognised a power in the King to introduce
foreigners into his Br'tifh dominions, and to raise armies ,
without the previous consent of Parliament. It was defend-
ad on a variety of grounds. First, on tlie idea, that the para-
graph expressed nor implied no ^i^prob^iUoii o^ \h£ measure j
A. 1774- DEBATES. - 237
that the Bill of Rights passed at the Revolution was a declara-
tory law, and that law, to use Mr. Attorney General's own
words, embraced no part of the British dominions beyond '
the limits of this island ; that the necessity of the measure
justified it, because of the delay it might occasion, and the
consequent embarrassment it might bring on, in the future
progresss of this business 3, that it was nothing new, for 6000
Dutch had come over, in the year 1745^ to our assistance,
without any such previous consent. The gentlemen in op^
position considered the paragraph as a full approbation of the
measure 5 whilst the friends of administration insisted it was
no more than a compliment to his Majesty's good intentions,
and left the measiure itself a matter of future deliberation,
Mr. Wedderburnc and Mr. Dunning had a long conversa-
tion upon the different interpretations of the clause. Very
few of the speakers confined themselves tq this single point,
but successively beat over the wide ground oF the general
dispute with America. The minister, however, quitting his
ground, left his supporters by themselves, and fairly owned
he was the adviser of the paragraph, and that he was firmly
persuaded of its legality, wisdom, and expediency. Thi»
explanation was occasioned by his being pressed, in case the
opposition agreed to the report, that his Lordship would agree
to review the proposition, and .give it a full and fair discussion
on some future day to be appointed for that purpose.}
Mr. Cornwall entered into American affairs. He acknow-
ledged there had been mismanagement somewhere ; but whe-
ther by the Parliament, in not granting a sufiicient force ; by
the ministvyi in not properly applying the forces granted; or
by the officers who had the conmiand of them, in not exer-
cising them effectually, he would not then assert ; but pro-
bably it might one day afford matter ior enquiry in tnat House.
However, he could not avoid saying thus much in favour of
administration, that a minister in this country, though he
may see much farther into future events than the rest of his
countrymen, tannot take any great stejv without having the
cry of the people against him. Had governmHent demanded
40,000 men last session to send to Ameri,ca, Parlianltent per-^
haps would njot have granted them ; but now that the nation
seemed to approve of sending a. sufficient force, he did not
doubt of success. He then proceeded to make some remarks
on the conduft of the late Lord Holland, when secf etaiy of
state, at the beginning of the last war, in allusion to what had
been said by Mr. Fox the night before ; and concluded by at-
tacking a noble Duke [Duke of Grafton] for his desotxon.
438 PARLiAMEl*TARY A.ijjS'
Mr. Charles Fox vindicated his father, and defended the
noble Duke j but as he quoted the speech the noble Duke
had made the night before in another House, he was called to
order by the House and by the Speaker. He protested that
he had been deceived by the ministry ; he had been taught to
believe thj^t gdvemment had so many friends in America,
that the appearance of a few regiments there would give them
security in avowing themselves 5 secure an obedience to our
laws, and ensure peace ; that upon this principle he voted for
sending over the forces last session : peace was his object in
that measure ; but now that the minister aeclared himself for
war, he could not but objeft to his proceedings. He could
not consent to the bloody consequences of so silly a contest
about so silly an objeft, condufted in the silliest manner that
history, or observation, had ever furnished an instance of; and
from which we were likely to derive nothing, but poverty, mir
scry, disgrace, defeat, and ruin.
ITie Lord Advocate of Scotland said. It would be ridicu-
lous in administration to recede, or to listen, at present, to
conciliatory measures, whilst America was matong so; cf-
feftual a resistance ; that all Europe would say we had felt
our inability to enforce our rights, and therewre were dad
to accommodate matters on any terms 5 that when we had
regained and re-established our authority there, he would .be
happy to join in any plan for the better and more happy go-*
vernment of that part of the empire. He said, it was not
tincommon for Great Britain to be unsuccessful in the begin-
ning, and viftorious in the progress and conclusion of her
wars ; ^d that he was not at all dismayed by the gloomy
piftures which some gentlemen were pleased to draw of our
perilous and deplorable situation. He concluded with aH at-
tack upon opposition, which he executed with great good
humour.
Governor Johnstone arraigned the conduft of administra-^
tion pretty severely j he declared that he was certain that the
Hanoverian soldiers ^ould not be tried by martial law for any
offences; that if they should be tried, they would have an
adiion in Great Britain against their officers, and that if amy
of them should be put to death, in consequence of the sen-
tence of a court-martial, those who gave that sentence would
.be guilty of mui-der according to our laws ; he insisted, that
our garrisons abroad were, in the true sense of the word, a
part of this kingdom, and he was against the paragraph, as a
tfan^croos precedent.
A. ilii* D fi B A *r £ S. i|9
The hitotxkcf Genisral [Mr. Thurlow]msiste^ that decency
tletnanded that we should retom his Majesty thanks for the
Considerations Which induced hinl to take the ^ep, though
we might afterwards condenm the measure. Suaviter in mod9^
fedfortiter in re.^ should ever be a maxim in British minds ;
tie declared that it was his opinion that the Bill of Rights
did not forbid the introduftion of foreign troops into our
territories abroad; that it only mentioned this kingdom |
that consequently he could no more see any ifiegality^ than he
could danger, in the measure^
Mr. Charles Mellisiu I agree with the gentlemen on the
other side of thfe House, th^t every government is originally
instituted (or the governed ; bift I must insist, that, when a
government is a£bixaBy formed, it becomes the duty of the
goverfted to submit to the governors* I will however agree,
that there is at times a powet* of constitutional resistance ; and
that in our own government, if a King's minister oppressed
the body of the people by repeatcjd ads of violence, our an^
cestofs had, under the sah£lion bf the two Hous^, attempted
to remedy the grievance. I w4H tilso admit, that if Lord«
and CommoiiSi at the will of any King or any minister, could
60 far betray their sacred trusty as to tyrannize over the gd*-
iratied in such a manner that human nature could not stib*
mit to the tyranny (Which Wias a calse I thought scarcely po»*
sible to exist> and my blood run told ^it the thoughts 6f k)
I was settled in my principles ; if the bulk of the pec^te con-
curred, ahd I could not be mistaken, I should oppose ithe ap-
pearance of a cohstitUtioil Which no longer exited, tind then
I will allow, that any new government is better for the go-
verned : but I call tpoii ge&tlemeii to consider, if the two
Houses of Parriatftcnt, supported by the united Voice' of the
people. Were cautious in theit method of opposing the King
alone, how much more ought gentlemen to be cautious in at--
tackmg the sacred constitution of Kiiig^ LordS]^ and Com-
mons. In ,ordelr propfeiiy to consider Whether slich a caiM; ex-
isted, we must look for Its sighs. Freeddtn of debate in Par-
fiament seems to me the gr^at touchstone ; aiid I dare skf
that ev^ gentleman whc) hears me will be <^ my opinion^
that at no time this House had ever eiijoyed more freedom of
debate than at present ; it htis kept us from otiir beds till ihre
thife ifloiwig) and may probably keep us to the same' hour
thistiight.
Mu^ had been said in former debatesj^ (mrticularly cm a«
e<}ual repi^ediNitatiom Indeed in our dwn state the r fp rt^ctt*
140 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177J;
, tation was fortned originally equal> I mean ia the time ol
William the First. It was, indeed, a representation of merely
the landed interest. Time has by degrees produced so tot^
an inequality of representation, that now it ii a certain faft,
that not one third part of England is represented in Parliar
ment. Does it not therefore follow, as a consequence, that
America has no more reason to compbin for the want of 3
representation, than two thirds of the people of Engknd ?
Here it is that the fiftion of law steps in to the rcUef of the
subjeft ; it declares us members for every part of. his Majesty's
dominions, and consequently for America j it has, therefore,
altered the ancient principle of the constitution,which said, that
the member was obliged tb obey his constituents. Necessity
has adopted this fiftion of a virtual representation, and it is
now become our duty to consult the intere3t of the kingdom
in general, in preference to the advantage of our borough ot
^imty;
. It is strange that reasonable men should not be contented
with the government of the country in which they live. I
shall ever maintain that I am bound to support the constitu-
tion left me by my ancestors. The term Constitution is in-
deed vague ; it is continually altering j like the human body^
new particles are continually flying from it, and new particles
are adding to it. We ought from time to time to improve
the constitution, or reduce it to its first principles, as the case
may require, but not by violent means. J hope and trust
we shall never again fall into the fatal errors of the times of
Charles the First, when every man thought he had a right to
set up his new-fangled ideas, in opposition to the government
of his country; and when the people at last discovered the
miseries they had drawn on themselves by their folly, they re-
ceived Charles the Second with that weakness and imbecility
of spirit, that they lost much of their liberties.
As to the present question, t think ministry is right
in its measures, and am satisfied with their late condu£k
America has formerly submitted to the right of taxation.
Many are the afts passed by us, submitted to by them. I
shall shortly state some of them. Wie have asserted our rights
not only in the navigation a6ls, and the internal a£b oithe
post ofiice, by 9 Ann. c. lo. but we have annihilated in
some cases their own afts of assembly; for i)y 7 & 8^
Will. III. we have declared void all the laws, &c. made in
their plantations, which were repugnant to that aft, or to
$U2/ other hw hereafter to be niade in this kingdom*
The
A t77$» 6 E B A T E iS. i4t
The aft of 1 1 & 1 2 Will. III. c. 7, made £ot the suppres-
sion of piracy, in its 1 3th seftion is express. The words are,
if any of the ^* governors in the said p](antalioh> or any per-*
son in authority there, shall refuse to yield obedience to this
aft, such x'efusal is hereby "declared to be a forfeiture of all and
every the charters granted for the government cA* the p4x)pri-
iety of such plantation,"
These adfci were made in the time bf the patron of our li*
beities,^ the great King William; even the charter itself,
which the inhabitants of the Massachusetts B^y now so eagerly
clamour after, is not thebr original charter, but a charter cram«
iaied down their throats by the great King William.
We havd carried our legislative power still furthef oVer iht
internal police of America, land America has submitted.
The tolonies allow that the Greenwich-ho^td aft, of 7 &
% WilL III. c. 21, extends t6 them.
By 3 & 4 Ann. c. 1 1, we have forbidden their selling riid^
pitch and tar trees under a certain growth, &c.
By c Ceo. 11^ c. 22, not a single hat can b^ exported from
tiie colonies any where.
And by 7 Geo. II. c#^7, we have altered their common Ia#
in the most essential of all points, their property in the
teeth of their Own afts of assembly ; for the more easy reco*
Very of debts, even if due to ourisclves, We have made their
lands assets. ,.
And to close the whtole, by 13 Geo. 11. c. 7, we have
made foreigners, who inhabit seven years in the colonies, na-
tives of these very countries, of which they deny us the right
of legislation.
But the mode of laying the late taxes has been objefted tok
Yet by 25 Car. IL c. 7, we have laid port duties on the ex-
portation of st!^gars, under the express regulation of the com*
tnissioners of the customs tod treasury ; and by i Geo. I. c. 1 2>
^e have ordered those duties to be paid into the exchequer i
yet these duties have never been complained of by Americai
But the ichief aft on whith the greatest stress may be laid a^
%o this point, and which I call on the gentlemen on the otKe^
side partictilarly to attend to, is the 6 Geo* IL c. 13.
, Here, exaftly as in the case of the present tea-duty, we
give tind graht z duty on foreigil rum imported into the col(>-
nies ; we order an entry y and thait thcrutejhall be paid in monejf
before landing,
Tlius then America has submitted to internal taxation ^nd
legislation^ both as to the right and the mode ; and, as Ame-
VoL* IL R ' rict.
Ut PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^
rica has submitted to the law of Parliament in former in-
stances, I am for enforcing obedience to the present law*
Those gentlemen who suspeft me of tyranny know little of
my disposition.
But it has been said by some gentlemen, that foreign states
accuse us of being engaged in a silly measure 5 all the answer
I shall give such foreign state is to mind its own business. If
'France says so, I should ask, where is the policy of the Cor-
^ican expedition ? If Spain, what it thought of the coast of
Barbary ? Each state has enough to do at home ; and if each
private member of this House would employ himself in asrist-
ing the public, instead of stating to the House private grieve
ailces. Great Britain would reap the advantage.
Mr Dunning insisted, that the Bill of Rights was only de-
claratory of rights existing prior to that aft, that therefore
the people were not to confine their claims to the literal words
of it, but to recur to the great principles upon which that de-
claration was mad^.
,. Mr. James ^renvilhy with that modesty, ability, and can-
dour, for which he is remarkable, gave his reasons for not
going on against America, because the Americans did not
mean to render themselves independent of this country, and
because he judged it impradlicable to reduce them by force.
He concluded by shewing, with much feeling propriety, that
he did not mean to throw any reflexion upon the condu£t of
his late relation, Mr. George Grenville.
. Mr. Adam answered the arguments of Mr. Grenville. He
shewed that the Americans would proceed to independence,
if successful, and that it was therefore absolutely necessary
%o reduce them. He entered into the prafticability of the
measure, by shewing that no settled form of government being
established in America, all must be anarchy and confusion
there, and that all ought to be fegularity and order at home.
He took notice of the comparisons which had been made be-
tween our situation and that of Spain, with Iregard to the re*
volt of the United Provinces, and said the cases were not pa-
rellel. He then attacked the condudl of the opposition, but
said at the same time, that he could not approve of that of
the ministry. He described the Operations of the last year,
as very inactive 5 found fault with the conciliatory proposi-
tions, and called upon the noble lord at the head of kdmini«-
stration to aft with vigour. He praised Lord North in the
strongest terms, for his ability and public virtue, but accused
him of indolence, the greatest fault a minister could be guilty
of at this critical jun&ure \ He toVd \jAm x\«. \m^ for aftion
A? 1775* D E B A t E S. '^ ^4}
was not yet over, but that it might soon pa^s away 5 begged
him therefore to rouse himself, and to aft with the ability he
possessed. He described the inactive campaign of last sum**
mer in very sti*ong colours j accused him for allowing the
-congress to meet ; asked if those neglects were like the con-
duct of a great minister, like the conduft of that man, who
had seized the helm in a stonri, and was not to quit it»
though it should blow a hurricane ? He concluded by sayings*
that from the spirited address of this day^ he hoped for a more
vigorous conduct, and. trusted that the noble Lord would not
allow it to go down to posterity, that from his inactivity, and
Aot want or abilit'es, he had lost Great Britain her American
colonies. Then begging pardon of the noble Lord, he assur-i^
ed him and the House, that he had not said these things from
any licentious spirit of railing, biit from a sincere love for this
country, and a desire of preserving its greatness.
Lord Norths He thanked the honourable gentleman for
the ability, candour, ,and manliness with which he had at-
tacked%him ; said he was always ready to listen to any stric-*
ture upon his conduct, even when it came from malice; but
when it flowed from so pure a motive, so sincere a love for
his country, as he was sure that hon. gentleman possessed, it
Could not fail of having the strongest effect. He pledged him-
self to the House, that he would proceed with vigour and
activity. He confessed that indolence of temper, which the
hon. gentleman [Mr. Adam] had noticed, and that dislike to
business, but declared that he , was forced into the post that
he now held ; that stormy and tempestuous as the ocean is,
through which he had to steer, he would never of his own ac-
cord abandon it till the storm liad subsided. He acknow-
ledged he had been deceived in events, but that he had adapt-*
cd his measures last sessions to the then state of affairs, not
imagining that all America would have armed in the cause.
Administration had proceeded upon the information they hai
i-eceived ; if gentlemen were in possession of better inform%»
tion, why did they not communicate it ? He said, that wb^
lie adopted the necessary plan of sending Hanoverians to Gib-
raltar ^d Port Mahon, he had not a doubt of the legality
of the measure ; that if it was dreaded as«a precedent, he
should have no objection to a bill of indemnity. If he had
Waited for the meeting of Parliament, our troops in Gibral-
tM- and PfH-t Mahon could not be brought into the field time
chough to have admitted of an early and vigorous exertion of
our forces against the rebels. That if we suffered by the war,
Apierica would suffer much more« He answered Mn Adam's
144 ^AllLiAMtNTAkY A. t^t^
objection to his conciliatory plan ; said it was the measure that
ba^ put us on s proper footing with regard to America ; that,
now they had refused it, their intentions were easily seen/
2ind every exertion of force was justifiable till such time as
they should again become obedient to this government ; that
' hothin^ should be wanting on his part to l^ing them back to
a just subordination ; that now. it was impossible to treat with
them, until once brought back to a due obedience ; that there
Was no intention to oppress them, but to establish in America
the most just, mild, and equitable government. He had, hcT
said, as great a veneration ibr liberty as any man in the House;
juid he hoped the Americans were too brave aiid worthy of
their ancestors, to hesitate a moment in their choice between
slavery or war ; but in the present instance there was no ques-
tion OT slavery. Their friends have sai^ that they only wi^w
ed to be put on the same footing on which they were in 1763-r
He wished to God, if it were poffible, to put the colonies on
the same footing they were in 1 763. Surely America would
not, without money, without trade, without resources, con-^ v
tinue to prefer a ruinous war with Great Britain to the bless^
higs of peace,' and^n happy dependence upon her. He con-
cluded with giving a pathetic description of his own situation,
nnder the weight of government, though surrounded with all
Ae power and pageantry of administrationf ; btit said that in
, spite of all this he should consider himself as infinitely happy,
n in the last moments of a life spent in the service of his
country, he could safy he had done inj thing for the support
•f a constitution he loved and admired, and of the best law* "
that ever were £ramed for the happiness of mankindw
Colonel Barri observed, that the noble Lord could
▼cry calmly bear to hear his faults announced from some
quarters ; that his Lordfliip stood the attacks of a certain,
northern dialedl with a very good grace, but he was in-
stantly shot dead with the brogue ; and what was ackaow-*
ledged to be extremely candid an one side the House, was
downright malice from tlie other. He accuired him of kisskig
the rod that had been held by that honourable gentleman,
[meaning Mr. Adam] • he said that the honourable gentle-
Hjan, in<ked, had held it with much grace and great abilify^
but he believed that the noble Lord had other reasons 5 that
an honourable friend of hisy [meanihg Mr: Burk] h«id often
exercised it with great grace and much ability, and yet it
was not kissed by the noble Lord when in hifr handsC. Thc-
Tcsson, he said, which induced all America to take arms soon-
er thsm the nobk Lord had cx^jief^d) "v^ to o^^se a com*
A. 1775- D E B A 'P E S. 145
?non enemy: the circumstance put him in njind of a speech,
made by Marshal Schomberg to the British troops, as they
were crossing the river Boyne in Ireland, ^ le devoir mes en^
fansy voilh vos ennetnis ! He then entered into the Hanoyeriaa
measure, and in his usual manner told many pleasant stories,
of his acquaintance in that country, and some other parts o£
the globe.
Mr. Serjeant Adair. When I perceive, and, indeed, rny-*
self most sensibly feel, that the patience of this House and
the constitution of its member3, are almost as much exr
h^usted in the course of this debate, as the treasures, and re^
sources of thi$ country are likely to be by the consequence^
pf our address, I shall certainly take up as little of their time
as possible, and fatigue myself and others 38 little as I can :
but. Sir, I cannot rest satisfied in my own mind, without
observing upon some things that have fallen in th? course of
the debate 5 and submitting to the House a few short reason^
for my most hearty and entire dissent from the proposed adn
^ (dress.
The first argument, if it can be called so, that I shall
take notice of, I mention with much reluftance; because^^
Sir, if it had not been adopted by so respeftabje a member
as the learned gentleman [the Attorney General] it woul4
^ have appeared to me unworthy of the wisdom and digiuty
of this assembly, and an insult on the understanding o^
every man to whom it was addressed ; I mean. Sir, the
unaccountable attempt that has been made to persuade us,
that the words of this address do not convey any kind of ap^
probation of the measure of transporting the King's H>inove-j
rian troops to the garrisons of Gibraltar and Port Mahon^
It is impossible to use any other argument against this, than
an appeal \(x the common sense of mankind. It does not ap-
pear to me to be the subjeft of reasoning or dispute ; s\iip i\
qi sophistry, of the false colouring with which it hath been
varnished ; read the clause in question to any plain man, an4
]i he does not 5ay ,that it expresses an approbation, a thankful
admiration of this part oif the conduft of his Majesty's mi-
nisters, I have lost all my ideas of language, all understand-
ing of the import of word$. If there is any member of this
House who upon barely reading the words of this address^
entertains a serious doubt upon the meaning of it, his mind
must be so difftraitly Constituted fi^om mme, that it is imr
possible dny argument I couid U3e> could make the least im^^
pression on him. Bnt why. Sir, are the gentlemen so solit
citous upon this ppint I Why a^e. they so. exceedingly afi:^id,
R3 <^v
a4<5 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
that these words should be understood in their plain sense ?
Are they doubtful of their own measures ? Do they wish, by
deluding our understanding, to steal from us an approbation
of what they dare not themselves defend ? Do they them-
selves think the measure; in question legal and proper ? If
they do, why not approve it r. Why not avow the approba-
tion ? Why do they not speak out? " The measure is right,
it is legal, it is beneficial to this country ; the address does
approve it, and it ought to be approved." Surely, Sir, this
would be a more rational and manly ground for supporting
their address, than the frivolous attempt to pervert the ob*
yious meaning of words, and sophisticate us out of our
senses.
So tfnuch has been said of the legality of this measure ; the
arguments against it have been so f&lly and ably stated, espe-
cially by two honourable gentlemen [Mr. Dunning and Gov,
Johnstone] who sit before me ; that I think it necessary to
trouble the House with very little upon that jsubjeft. I shall
^ntent myself, at present, with saying, that I entirely con-
cur in the opinion, that the Illegality of employing or sup-
porting foreign forces in any part of the dominions of Great
Britain, without the consent and authority of Parliament, is
deducible from the same principles of law, and the constitu-
tion, from whence our ancestors, who declared the rights and
liberties of the subjedl ^t the Revolution, inferred the illegality '
of raising or keeping an army within the kingdom in time of
peace without the same authority and consent.
The check and controul, which the ancient principles of
this happy limited monarchy has with so much wisdom and
caution established over the power of the Sovereign, would
be vain and nugatory indeed, if that Sovereign had a rights
by his own mere authority, to establish an armed force, either
of natives, or much more of foreigners, in any part of the
dominions of this crown, without the consent of the people^
expressed in this great council of the nation.
The negative. qf this power, Sir, was one of the great pri-
vileges which the Bill of Rights declared to be the undoubted
right and liberty of the subject. The proposition deduced
from the principles of the constitutio"h is general; it was laid
down in the terms in which it appears in that law, because^
like every thing else that is there declared, it had a reference
to the grievances recited in the preamble. Those were the
encroachments which the late King James had made on the
constitution of his country. Those were the mischiefs im-
medhtdjto he rcimcdiedby t\vc ^evoVyiXAOtis ^tA -wioitdingly
A. 1775- ^ E ®A T E S. '' 247
to every clause of the Bill of Rights, the declaration of. the
right is adapted to, and co-extensive with the violation coiiw .
plained of. This is the true reason why some of those decla-
rations appear to be limited in their expression •, and excludes
every inference against the generality of the propositions,
which are fairly deduciblc from the same principles qf reason'
and of law.
But, Sir, though I avoid detaining the House, by entering
more particularly into the reasonings on this subject, I cannot '
dismiss it, without taking some notice of a most novel and
dangerous do^hnne, which has proceeded from so respeftaSle "
an authority, that it demands our most serious attention. It '
has been asserted by the highest law authority in this House,-
** That the raising or keeping an army even within this king-
dom in time of peace, without the authority of Parliament,'
unconnected with the illegal purposes to which," he admits,
*' it had been perverted, was not simply, and in itself unlaws
fill, before the passing of the Bill of Rights at the Revolu-s
tion, and therefore that the clause in that statute, which de--
dares it to be so, created a new law, and did not merely de-
clare an ancient fiindamental principle of the constitution." •
If this be true of that clause, Sir, it may as well be applied
to every other in the Bill of Rights : and the consequence of
that do<^rine will be, that all the privileges there asserted to
be the ancient rights of the subjedl, were not in truth so, but
were new acquisitions, or generous gifts at the Revolution :
and that the declarations and provisions of that excellent law
are not to be extended beyond the words of it, or applied to
other cases deducible from the same principles of the constitu-
tion, which they certainly should be, in the most liberal man-
ner, if it is merely declaratory of the common law and an-
cient constitution of the kingdom.
But, independent of all other reasonings, the clear and un^
ambiguous words of the law itself, give the most decisive re-
futation to so strange a doftrine. If there is any one statute
in the whole book whi<:h is more clearly and pre-eminently
declaratory of the ancient law than all others, it is certainly
the Bill oF Rights. The preamble recites, " That the late
King James, by the assistance of evil counsellors, did en^
deavour to subvert the laws and liberties of this kingdom,"
in several particulars, which are there recited •, all which are
affirmed to be " directly contrary to the know^h laws and sta-
tutes of the realm." Contrary to what laws. Sit? Surely
not to those which they were then going to make ; but to
tho>e ancient, and) in the words of the a6t, known laws,
R 4 which
a48 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775,
which existed at the time, and long before the violations com^
plained of. The aA then goes on to say, that the Lords and
Commons, " for asserting their ancient rights and liberties da
. declare," several particuUrs, and amongst the rest, ** that
nusing or keeping a standing army within the kingdom, in
time of peace, unless with consent of Parliament, is against
law," and they ^' clsum and insist upon all the premises as their
undoul]|ted rights and liberties ; and it is declared and ena£i6d,
that all the rights and liberties so claimed *^ are the true, an-
'cient, and indubitable rights and liberties of the people of
this kingdom.!' These words. Sir, are too strong and clear
to need^a comment j and on them, with confidaace> I rest
this matter in dispute.
. I must trouble the House with a wcM-d or two on another
very strange argument, indeed, which seemed to be used yc»*
terday with a sort of triiunph, [by the Solicitor General^ and
others] and has been repeated in the course of this day's dc*
bate, though with some attempts to ^ften it a little, and take
off from that glaring absurdity which has already been so ably
exposed : this. Sir, is the comparison that has-been made be-
tween this American war and some others in our history,
which, though they were blundering and unsuccessful in the
beginning, were glorious and prosperous in the event i from
whence the strange inference has been dravm, that because
this has been at least equally blundering, and unfortunate in
its outset, it should therefore be similar in its future glory and
success ? and the much stronger consequence, that we ought
to pursue the same kind of measures that have proved so un«
fortunate, and continue to place our confidence in the same
men who have been guilty of those blunders^ and mistakes*
A right honourable gentleman who spoke early in. this day's
debate, [Mr. Stanley] endeavoured to state this with more.
appearance of reason thus — I do not profess. Sir, to repeat
Jus very words, but I believe I can be pretty exaft as to the
substance : ^' It is not, said he, so absurd and ridiculous to
alledge, that, because we had not last year full information,
because we had reason to trust to appearances and probabili*^
ties that have deceived us, because trusting to them we had
not a force sufficient nor efficaciously employed, we are not
therefore to infer^ that when we have full information, when
those errors we were looked into are re<SHfied, and a sufficient
force is efficaciously employed, our measures should not be
attended mith more' prosperous success.'^ I da not contend.
Sir, for that inference} on the contrary, I am fully per-
suadedj tl^^t a rectification of our late errors and bHmder%
and •
A. 1775; I>EBATE8. 149.
and total change of our measures^ adopted upon full infimna^
ticm, would be attended with a prosperous and happy event :
but. Sir, I do contend for the inference from these premises,
that we are not to trust the same men. who have so blundered
and been deceived, or pursue, even to a greater extent, the
same measures that have nearly undone us.
Let me ask the right honourable gentleman and his friends,
why had tUey not rail information in matters of such impor-.
(ance? Why did they trust to uncertain appearances and pro-
babilities that have deceived them, ^hen the fate of the env-
pire was at stake ? If they judged force necessary, why hH
they not a sufficient force ? And why was not that force effi-
caciously employed ? Are those men fit for the management
of great affairs, who negleA the means of information that
are in their power ? Are ministers equal to the government
of a great empire, who trust the fate of it to deceitful appear*
ances and the chapter of accidents ? Qr, ought they to bo
trusted with the diritStioa of fleets and armies, who do not
know what force is sufficient for their own plans and designs^
or how it should be most efieftually employed ?
I shall now. Sir, entreat the indulgence of the Houses
while I state, as shortly as I can, some of the reasons why I
am against the whole of this sanguinary address ; and why
I, for one, cannot consent, to pledge myself for die truth of
propositions, respefting which I have no evidence or infor*
mation before me 5 and the approbation of measures, which
I, from my soul, detest and abhor. Ishall not enter into the
particulars of the speech or address, which have been so ably
observed upon, in the course of two long days debate. I
oppose, Sir, the whole principle of the address, because tho
avowed tendency of it, is to plunge us still deeper in an un-
happy civil war, and to pledge us to support a system of mea»*.
sures, which appear to me to threaten ruin and destruftion
to this devoted country. I am against the present war, Sir,
because I think it unjust in its commencement, injurious to
both countries in its prosecution, and ruinous in its event%
It is staking the fate of a great empire against a shadow*
The quarrel which occasioned it, took its rise from the as*
sertion of a right, at best but doubtful in itself 5 a rights
from whence the warmest advocates for it have long been
forced to admit, that this country, can* never derive a single
shilling of advantage. In spite of all the sophistry that
has been used, and all the dedamation we have heard on the
dignity of this country and the authority of Parliament,
(he ri^ht of taxation is the only real and original subjeA of
±So PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
the dispute between Great Britain and her colonies. This
<Joubtful and unprofitable right has been attempted to be
asserted ;ind enforced by a series of laws, the most oppres-
sive, the most violent, the most arbitrary, unjust and tyran-
nical, that ever disgraced the ^i^als ot any civilized nation
upon earth. I will not now. Sir, enter into the particulars
of these laws, but I mean the whole system of American le-
gislation, from the Boston Port bill to the presept timCa
This system of laws. Sir, has produced its natural eflfeft ;
it has driven your colonies into rebellion, and we are now
called upon to concur in exerting the whole power of this
nation, in enforcing by blood and destruftibn that unjust'
and arbitrary system. The injustice of these measures alone
would be sufficient to determine me against giving them ap-
probation or support. But when I consider the inevitable
consequences of them, I am still more strongly confirmed in
that opinion. The war in which we are engaged is, of all
others, in its nature, the most minous and destruftive.-
Whatever may be the event, we must be the sufferers; for such
is the. unhappy nature of the contest, that the losses and
mischiefs of both sides must uhimately fall, upon us. Whose
treasures will be exhausted by the expencer Whose com-
merce will be ruined and destroyed ? The blood of whoso
subjefts will be spilt, but those of the British empire ? If
such are the present effefts of this war, the event must be
$till more fatal to this kingdom. Let us consider it. Sir,
upon either supposition of success or disappointment, of con-
quest or defeat. The present situation of the colonies, their
imion, their condu<St, their enthusiastic spirit of liberty, and
, the fatal experience of the last campaign, has fully convinced
every man, even the most sanguine, that we cannot expeft
bloodless laurels, or an easy conquest. We must lay our
accounts for the most alarming and dangerous resistance ;
and if a full exertion of* all the powers and resources of this
kingdom, which I am far from thinking the most probable
cventj should at length, after a long and obstinate contest,
in which both sides will be almost equally exhausted, pre^
vail over every effort of liberty, reduce the colonies to a forced
submission, and compleat the conquest of America ; in
what respciH: shall we be gainers by such a conquest ? What
shall we acquire at such an expence, but the empty assertion
of an unprofitable sovereignty over desolated provinces^ or
a few miserable slaves ? Instead of those flourishing dcmi-
nionsy the wealth iand commerce of which has rendered us
the grcdtcsi nation in the world, we shall find ourselves
A. 1775- DEBATES. 2^t
possessed of a vast territory, which, drained of the sources,
from whence that greatness flowed, that communicated it-
self so plentifully to us, will be not only useless and unprofitable,
but burthensome and destructive ; acquired by violence and
force, it cannot be preserved but by the same means ; and
our acknowledged revenues, must be still further drained, by
the constant expence of fleets and armies, to support our
unjust authority, and to defend from foreign invasion those
provinces which we shall have deprived of the means of de-
fending themselves: These, Sir, are the happy consequences
that we may expect from the most prosperous success.
But suppose for a moment the event should be different ;
suppose the extent and natural advantages of their country,
their distance from us, that union which our measures have
produced, and above all that ardour of liberty, that enthusi-
astic and desperate spirit, which our injustice and oppression
have excited, should carry the Americans through the dread-
fril struggle with success, and enable them in the end to
baffle arid defeat the utmost exertions of their infatuated and
deluded country. In the course and event of such a strug-
gle, is it possible to suppose that America will not follow the
dangerous example which we are going to set her, of having
recourse to foreign assistance ; that in the future establish-
ment of her commerce, she will not give the preference to
any nation in Europe, over that which has attempted to en-
slave and destroy her, and has not desisted from the unna-
tural attempt, till after the ptmost, though ineffectual exertion
of all her power and resources ? In what situation will Great
Britain then find herself? Her colonies will not only be to-
tally lost to her, but, ?i\ least as to the benefits of their com-
merce, thrown into the hands of other powers, most proba-
bly her natural enemies. Reduced to her insular dominions ;
curtailed in her commerce; the principal Source of her
weadth and naval power transferred into the hands of her
enemies; her blood and treasures exhausted; her revenue*
lessened*; oppressed with an enormous debt , and debilitated
with unsuccessful exertions ; she will lose her power, and
consequence in the system of Europe, and be exposed almost
a defenceless prey to the first neighbour who shall chuse to
invade her. ■ ^ *
■ These, Sir, are the consequences which must ensue from
the measure)^ we are now called upon to approve and support.
Whether they are followed by defeat or success, they will, al-
most with equal certainty, destroy the power, the glory, the
happiness oi this once great and flourishing empire. It is
7S^ PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775^
my opinion that we cannot conquer America i I have not 9
doufsts that we cannot acquire or maintain a beneficial sove<-
rcignty over her by violence and force.
But> shall we give up our cc^nies without a struggle;
without an attempt to preserve our dominion over them?
That, Sir, is not my opinion ; I think we shall lose that do-5
Biinion, I am sure we shall lose all benefit firom it by opprea* .
moQy violence, and war ; but it may still be preserv^ by jus-*
tice, moderation, and peace* The Americans, it it $aiid> wiU
be satisfied with nothing less than absolute independence*
They do not say so themselves, Sir ; they have said the direct
con^'ary, *^ Restore the ancipnt constitution of the empire^
under which all parts of it ha^e flourished ; place' us in the
situation we were in the year sixty-three, and we mil submif
to your regulations of commerce, and return to our obedience^
and constitutional subjection." This, Sir, is the language of
the Americans.
Is this a claim of absolute independence ? "Were they in*
dependent of liiis country in the year sixty-three, or at any
preceding peariod ? Will any gentleman on the odier side m
the House rise up and say. that they were ? If they were not^
, they do not now claim to be §0. If they wdre then inde*
pendent, it was in that state, that those advantages of wealth
and power flowed from them, which raised us but a few year^
ago to the greatest height of eminence and glory, and set ua
at the head of all the nations of the world. But our minis-»
ters tell us they will not in truth be content wit^ what they
themselves have professed to demand. Have you tried them.?-
Make the experiment. Take them at their word. Repeat
the TtQs that have passed since sixty-three, and put Uiem ob^
the footing of their old system of colonial administration.
Surely, Sir, it is a less expensive and dangerous^ experimentj
than that which we are now so strongly urged to make. If
it should fail. Sir, how are we injured i Will our blood be
^ipilt by it? Will our treasures be exhausted? Will our.
strength or our resources be the less ? If the Americans^
should recede from their own proposals •, if they will be ctm*
tent with nothing less than an independence equally opposite
to the true interest of both countries ; you may then have
recourse to war, if it should then be thought adviseable ;
and you will do it with the advantage of a united instead of
a divided people at home. The colonies will not have a single
■friend on this side the Atlantic 5 there will not be a single
man who will not think their resistance a most unnatural *
and uDJustiBable rebeUioin *, msiead ^ .xlloxfikm^ them, as I
A. i775- Jb E B* A T E S. ajj
now do, from the bottom of my soul, engaged in a noble and
glorious struggle, even if it should be carried on with a mis-
taken zeal» for what they conceive to be their libertiesj and
the natural rights of mankind.
I beg pardon, Sir for having trespassed so long on the in-
dulgence of the House ; I did not rise from the hope of con-
vincing any one member, .much less from an expe6btion
that any thing I could say would be worthy of their attentioiu
I am conscious. Sir, of my own inability to treat so great %
subjed as it deserves ; but I could n6t be easy in my <ywu
mind, without entering th« strongest and most public protes-^
tatidns against measures which appear to me to be fraught
with the destruction ^nd downfall of this mighty empire, i
wash my hands of the blood of my fellow subjects i and shall
at least -nave this satisfaction, amidst the impending cabon^
tiei of the public, not only to think that I have not contri^
iiuted to, tnit that I have done all in my power to of^wse anil
avert the ruin of my country.
Sir Oilbert £Uiot defended Lord North from the attack
made on his indolence and inactivity ; and besides arguing ia
soippoTt of his Lordship's conciliatory proposition of last year^
said, he would not give his consent to the sending a larger
armament to America, without sending at the same time term^
of accommodation.
Mr Rigby. He rallied Colonel Barre upon his nnmeromi
acquaintance. He said he was always much pleased and en-
tertained with the stories of that honourable gentleman ; nay^
hs, was even entertained with the history that gentleman had.
riven of his own life the day before, though he must own
that it came with the fewest i^races from a person's own mouth*
He then made an avowal othis principles, and declared he
voted for the address to his Majesty, merely because it was to
sanctify coercive measures. He said he was £rmly of opinioa^
that America must be conquered, and that the present re*
bellion must be crushed ere the dispute would be ended^-
That there were faults sd'mewhere, but did not know whc-^
ther they were in the department of the sea or land. That
as to reconciliatory pbns, he was as mudh for them a« any
man ; declared he did not wish to fight for a paltry tea duty:
but wished to be understood, that in saying so, he did not
by any means give up the fight of taxation, although it might-
not be po&icto insist on it at present; and he quoted the
authority of Lord Chatham, to prove that it was a doctrine
held in the House ten years ago, and that the £arl had hiow
ielfj when minister, d6:lared the Ameriaans should not ma-
254 PARLIAMENTARY An 77^4
ma£»Startf that they should not make a horse-naiL He con^
eluded with hoping the minister would act with becoming
vigour in America, and he doubted not of success; He dc-^
scribed the present situation of America in very strong terms^
saying, that there now existed in that country a system of ty-»
ranny that disgraced usurpation.
Mr* Dempster. I do not rise. Sir, to trouble the house
on the subje& of the question more immediately utider it^
consideration. The noble lord [Lord North] who spoke some
time ago> has in my opinion concluded that matter fully and
desirably. He has declared his willingness to accept o£ an in-s
demnity, if the legality of the measure of introducing foreign
troops into our distant garrisons and forts shall appear doubt<«
fill to the House. The expediency of that measure nobody^
has disputed, its legality alone is called in question, and in my
opinion very justly so j but as this point will be settled by an
l£t of indemnity, what more can be said ? What more can
we desire ? the business is concluded.
But, Sir, I am induced, though at at a late hour of the
night, to say a few words on something that fell from the
same noble Lord, and that has since fallen from other Rcxi*
tlemen of great weight and authority in this House, nrom
what they have said. Sir, a ray of comfort breaks in upon
.us. That dark and portentous cloud that has hung so long
over Great Britain and America, fraught with numberless ills
to both, begins to break and clear up. Within this half liour
I am induced to entertain a hope, to which I have been long
a stranger, that there will be an end to bloodshed, and that
peace, harmony, and happiness, may be again restored to
this distrafted empire.
To forward this most desirable object, as for as lies in my
power, is my sole motive for saying a very few words.
The noble Lord has disclaimed any intention of enslaving
America. He has gone so far as to say that he would not
objedl to restoring her to the footing on which she stood in
the year 1763, was there a probability of America being now
satisfied with this concession.
Another right honourable gentleman [Mr. Rigby] of
great abilities, and a leader of no inconsiderable party in
this House, has just. now declared that he will not fight with
America for a paltry duty upon tea. And a third right
honourable gentleman [Sir Gilbert Elliot] not short of the
former in consideration and weight amdng us, has expressly
a&rmed, that he will not consent to an armament, sailing
againit
9
Ai 177^ DEBATES. 255
against America, unless the same fleet shall carry reasonable
offers of accommodation to th^ quarter of the globe.
There appears, for the first time, by what has &3lea from
those three noble and honourable perstms, a disposition to re*
linquish the great bone of contention between^ our colonies
and their parent state 5 I mean. Sir, the exercise of the right
of taxing them, unrepresented as they are, in Parliament, t
hope, Sir, the House will revert to our ancient system of
governing the colonies ; for till we abandon this new-fuigled
system of taxing them iere^ a system no older than the con-
clusion of the last war, I will venture to affirm that no coer-
ceive measures short of extermination will ever compel dbe
Americans to submit to it.
There is no subjeft on which I have employed . more re-
fleftion, than on»the grounds of our present dispute with
America 5 the result has been an opinion by which I believe
I shall abide as long as I breathe y it is. Sir, that in my
conscience 1 think the claim of the Americans is just and
Well founded, to b/e left in the free exercise of the right of
taxing themselves in her several provincial assemblies, m the
same manner that Ireland now does and always has done.
By this beautiful part of our constitution, our wise ancestors
liave bound together the different and distant parts of this
mighty ehipire; by this single principle,, heretofore invio-
late, they have diflRised in a most unexampled manner the
blessings of liberty and good government through our re-
motest provinces. Look, Sir, into the history of the pro-
vinces of other states, of the Roman provinces in ancient
time 5 of the French, Spanish, Dutch and Turkish provinces
of more modern date, and you will find, every page of it
stained with adls of oppressive violence, of cruelty, injustice
and peculation : but in the British provinces, the annual
meetings of their little assemblies hare constantly restrained
the despotism, and correfted the follies of their governors;
they watch over the administration of justice, and from time
to time ena£l such salutary regulations as tend to promote
their happiness and well-being. And what, .Sir, I beseech
you, could insure the regular ^meeting of thoss assemblies,
ever. troublesome to governors, but their retaining in their
own hands, like us at home, the power of granting the ftmds'
necessary for defraying the current expence of government.
Were your provincial assemblies deprived of this power, I
cannot see wherein the govemipent of America would differ
from
156 P ARLI AMENT ART A. 177^,
from that of Indqstan. And has our enquiries^ in a formal
session^ into the administration of Bengsdj made u$ in love
with the eastern species of government ? Do we seriously wilh
to transplant the rapine and cmelties of India to America ?
But now, Sir, that this system is given up to oui* colonies^
peace will, I hope, speedily folloi;^ the concession.
I cannot, Sir, but commend, in the warmeft terms, the
intention expressed by our gracious Sover«gn in the speech
from the throne, of sending a commission to America to em-»
power persons on the spot, to receive submissions, to remove*
oppressive rcstriftions^ and to grant pardons and other iiw
dulgences to our fellow citii:ens across the Atlantic. There
is but one step more necessary to be takefi, and peace will, in
my humble opinion, be certain and infallible 5 and in lotion
to that step alone have I ventured to rise on the present 00*
caslon. It has already been touched upon by an honourable
gentleman [Mr. James Grenville] who always expresses him^
self with elegance and projM'icty. The point I mean, Sir^
is that his Majcsty^s commissioners maybe impoweredto treaf
with the congress. I am convinced. Sir, that America witt
not listen to a treaty through any other medium; it stands t0
reason and common sense she will not; for the congress is not
only the sole existing power at this moment in America, but
it is to the union formed by means of the congress, that Ame^
rica owes its strength, and its formidable power of resistance ;
without such a union twelve wide-spread, far-distant pro*
vinces, thinly peopled and individually weak, could hever aft
with effe£l in defence of what they think their violated rights;
nor is it to be supposed they will dissolve this firm bond of
union till their grievances are redressed.
May I then be permitted very humbly to join my feebl<»
Voice to the honourable gentleman's before alluded to, and
entreat the ministry that no false pride, no misplaced idea of
dignity and ailthority may induce them to forbid the com^
fnissioners from treating for and seeking peace where alonci
peace may be found. Let the commissioners be vested with
discretionary powers, and left at least without an express proi
hibition to treat with that body ; or let some means be der
Vised of legalizing a congress, by calling onepro ne ftata Mndct
his Majesty's authority.
The commissioners will, Sir, I hope, be well choseri^^
will be men of rank and chara<^er, men of known attachment
* to the constitution, and men known and revered for services
doacto their coimtry, and neitlier too much attached t6 Bri-
taia
A. 1 775- DEBATE S. 257
tain nor America, but, if pos$ible, impartial in their opinion
conc^ning the present contest. - ; . .
When men such as I have described, giving weight and
dignity to the commission they bear, come to treat and tq
reason with the Americans, much may be urged to quiet
their jealousies and apprehensions, and to bring them back
to their wonted allegiance to the King, and subordination to
this coimtry. They may be told. Sir, and told with truth,
that Parliament is not sq determinedly obstinate on the mea-
sure of tjotation as they apprehend. They may be remintlcd
that if Parliament taxed them in the year 1764, the same
Parliament, finding this well-meant but injudicious measure
offensive to America, repealed the tax in the year 1765*
They may be told that on the memorable occasion of repeal-
ing the stamp aft, their great champion, the Earl of Chat-
ham, laid the claim of America only tp an exemption from
internal taxation. They may.be" also told that the seven or
eight duties afterwards imposed, were not internal taxes., but
external port-duties on foreign commodities. And yet in
consequence of those external duties being disagreeable to
America, they were 2dl repealed, except this miserable three*
penny duty upoji tea. And when to those arguments the
commissioners can add, that Parliament, even oil this last ar-
ticle, is disposed to relax, I can hardly doubt of their success*
I already see peace and harmony restored! I see the two coun-
tries, like two friends who have quarrelled, returning with
eagerness to their ancient habits of friendship, and cement-
ing more closely than before their usefril connexion and af-
feftionate tmion ! How ardently. Sir, this is my wish> let the
trouble I have now ventured to give you this night, bear wit-
ness, if the uniformity of my condudl for eleven years that
this unhappy contest has subsisted, should not be a sufficient
testimony of my sincerity.
Sir George Tonge moved, that this House immediately take^
into their consideration, the measure of introducing foreign
troops into any part of the dominions of the crown o( Great
Britain, without the previous consent of Parliament.*
Mr. Powys withdrew his motion of recommitment, and se-
conded this.
At near one o'clock in the morning the House divided upon
Sir CSeorge Yonge's motiop. For it 72, against it 176.
Lord North then moved for " Leave to bring in a trill, to
empower his Majesty to call out a militia when a: rebeUion
V OL. II. ^ S'. . appeared
^ Tius motion is hot ini the votes.
258 PARLtAMENtARY A.177J.
appeared in any part of his dominions ;" which was agreed to.
A petition of the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Commons,
of the city of London, in Common Council assembled, was
presented and read ^ setting forth, that the said court, having
taken into its most serious consideration the present distressed
situation of* our fellow subjedts in America, are exceedingly
alarmed for the consequences of those coercive measures which
are pursuing against them, measures that must, notwithstand*
ing the great uncertainty of their success, eventually be pro-
duftive of new and more biuthensome taxes, the increase of
an enormous national debt, and finally^ we fear, the loss of
the most valuable branch of our commerce, on which the
existence of an infinite number of industrious manufadhirers
and mechanics entirely depends ; and that, his Majesty hav-
ing been graciously pleased, in answer to a late humble and
dutiful address and petition to the throne, praying a cessation
of hostilities with America, for the purpose olF obtaining
time, and thereby giving an opportunity for a happy ind last-
ing reconciliation with his Majesty's American colonies, to* de-
clare that he shall abide by the sense of his Parliament, the said
court conceive it to b^ their indispensable duty, thus early in
the session, in the most respectful manner, to apply to the
House, to adopt such measures, for the healing of the present
unhappy disputes between the mother country and the colo-
nies, as may be speedy, permanent, and honourable.
Ordered to lie upon the table.
OBober 28.
Address presented.
The humble Address of the House of, Commons to the King,
Most Gracious Sovereign^
WE, your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjefts, the
Commons of Great Britain in Parliament assembled, beg
leave to return your Majesty the humble thanks of this Housej •
for your most gracious speech from the throne.
Permit us. Sir, to assure your Majesty, that we have long
lamented the condition of our unhappy fellow subje<5ts in Ame-
rica ; seduced from their allegiance by the grossest misrepre*
sentations and the most wicked and insidious pretences, they
have been made the instruments of the ambition and traitorous
designs of those dangerous men, who have led them step by
step to the standard of rebellion, and who have now assumed
the powers of sovereign authority, which they exercise. in the
most despotic and arbitrary manner, over, the persons and pro-
perties of this deluded people.
Your Aithful Commons took ^^titttt.'^^^iti'yotir Ma-
A. 1775^ D E B A^T E'S. : 259
jesty's benevolent and paternal desire; rather to reclaim, than
to subdue the most refractory of your colonies ; and excited
by your Majesty's great example, we were anxious to prevent,
if it had been possible, the e^sion of the blood of our fellow
subjects, and the calamities which are inseparable from a state
of war ; we still hoped that your Majesty's people in America
would have discerned the traitorous views of their leaders,
would have considered how ruinous even their success must be
to themselves, and been convinced that constitutional sub-
jeftion to Great Britain is the freest and hap])iest co|idition of
any civil society in the known world ; but we now sec with
indignation, that no other use has been made of the modera-
tion and forbearance of your Majesty and your Parliament,
but to strengthen the preparations of this desperate ccis pi-
racy ; and that xhc rebellious war now levied is become more
general, aind manifestly carried on for the purpose of estab-
lishing an independent empire.
We beglcavfe to assure your Majesty of our entire concur-^
rcnce with your Majesty, in thinking that it is now become
the part of wisdom, and (in its effcdls) of clemency, to put
a speedy end to these disorders, by the most decisive exertions;
and that we learn with the greatest satisfaction, that, for this
purpose, your Majesty has increased your naval establishment,
and greatly augmented your land forces, in such a manner as
may be the least burthensome to your kingdoms ; and we will
chearfuUy and effectually support your Majesty in such ne-
cessary measures, and enable your Majesty, when the occasion
shall require it, to avail yourself of the friendly offers, which
your Majesty has received, of foreign assistance : We thiink-
fully acknowledge the gracious considerations which induced
your Majesty to send a part of your electoral troops to the
garrisons of Gibraltar and Port Mahon, in order that a larger
number of the established forces of this kingdom might he ap-
plied to the maintenance of its authority : and we are bound
in duty to return your Majesty our particular thanks, for
pointing out to us, from the throne, the constitutional re-
source of our well-modelled and well-regulated national mi-
litia; which, upon every great emergency, cannot fail of
afibrding security to your Majesty's realm, and of giving, at
the same timci extent and adtivity to your military operations.
It is with the highest satisfaction and gratitude, we hear the
afieCtionate declaratioh of the father of his people, that, when
the unhappy and deluded multitude, against whom this force
will be .directed, shall become sensible of their error, your
Mi^escip^wiB'be read7 to receive the isisled with tenderness
\. S a "wA
a6a PAR LI A M E NT A R V A. 17^^;
and mercy ; and your Majesty's gracious .commtmication of
your intention to give authority to certain perspns on tlic spot,
to grant general and particular pardons and indeimitties, m
such manner, and to such persons, as they shall think fit, and
to receive the submission of any province or colony whidn
may be disposed to return to its allegiance, demands our
warmest acknowledgments 5 and .we shall be ready to giv<
our concurrence to such measures as may best contribute to
carry y6ur Majesty^s wise andhumane intentions intacxeeotbiKi;
Every motive, and every interest, that can animate the
hearts of loyal subjefts, call upon your &ithful CommoRS ta
grant to your Majesty such supplies as the circumstances and
exigency oT affairs may require ; and, being £ully convinced:
that the security of every benefit and advantage derived to tthe
comin^ce, the manufactures, and the navigation, of your
Majesty's kingdoms, from the American colonies, must ever
depend on their being held in that due subordination to the
legislature of Great-Britain in which the constitution has
placed them, we should be wanting in the duty which wc
owe to our constituents, ourselves, and our posterity, if vre
did not engage, with our lives and fortunes, to support this
great and important cause, in which the rights 6f your Wfai-
jesty's crown, and the intferests of your peo|de are so essentialljr
concerned •, and we hope, and trust, that we shall, by the
blessing of God, put such strength and force into your Ma*
jesty's hands, as may soon defeat and suppress this rebelliotr,
and enable your Majesty to accomplish your gracious wish,, of
re-establishing order, tranquillity, and happiness, through all
the parts of your united empire.
His Majestfs amtver*
Gentlemen^
I return you my hearty thanks, for this loyal and dutiful
address : I promise myself the most happy consequences from
the very zealous and aftc^ionate assurances of the support of
my faithful Commons at this great and important conjunc-i-
ture ; and I have a firm confidence, that, by thfc blessing of
God on the justice of the cause, and by thd assistance ofinij
Parlia nent, I shall be enabled to suppfess»this dangerous re*-
hellion, and to attain the most desirable end of restoring my
subjjcfts in America to that free and happy condition, and to
thac peace and prosperity, which they enjoyed, in their con-
stitutional dependance on Great-Britain,' before the piresent
unhappy disorders. • •
OBohr 304- .' •
Lord iV^^f^presenced'dle b\i\ fot ta^itj^Uu^lHb^tfitciti^
out and assemble the militia, jn ^aseSr of rebellioil ifi my p^t-
of, the d(Wttinions belonging to t{ie crown q( Gi^at Britain*,
He touched slightly an the general d^ign of the. bill, and.
moved to have it read a second time on Thursday,^ Nov. ad. .
. Mr. Turner pointed out a great number of incDnve-
jiiences arising from the militia law, particulary in ma;?.
nufa6bjring counties add j>lac^ of . trade and corhmerite.
All the evils of the former adl, he insisted, would be mulf>.
tiplied by the new aft. He added, that he did not ap-
pi'ovc of the prodigious power with which this acV would lie-
-cessarily ^rm the SovereigpRthat of caDing out the militia^
'Whenever bethought fit. On this ground he contended, that
the justifiable occasions for assembling the militia, if they
were not particularly specified, would remain at the discre-
tion etitirely df the Sovereign. On the whole, he dreaded
the worst coasequences from taking the militia from under
the immediate cdntroul of Parliament, who hitherto had beeif
yes guardians and paymasters.
Lord N^rth ^id, it was impossible he could, in this stage of
the business, reply to the arguments of the honourable gentle-
jnah 5 the proper time to state his objeflions would be oil
Thursday, when it was proposed to give the bill a second
reading,
Mr. y. Johnstone swd, he could not approve of the bill,
because it clearly gave the CroWn a poW^er to decide what was
or was not rebi^llion, a point upon which the bill depended }
and observed, that it was impossible to foresee, to what the
operations of such a bill itiight reach, if a latitude was Jejft *i|
the execution of so extensive and dangerous a power.
Mr. Sawhridge desired to defer the second rcadiiig a fei^
days longer ; but it was refused.
Sir George Stiitie defended the bill.
The order of the day to go into a committee of supply. Sir
Grey^ Cooper moved, that a supply be grafted.
Mr. Sawhridge^ to testify his dissent, 5nd give his reasons \
fthe gentlemen on the treasury bench talking rather loudly,
and paying very Kttlc atterition,}'he insisted on his right to
speak, and informed the gentlemen, that if what he was offer-
ing was disagreeable or disgusting, they might, if they pleas-
-cd, withdraw. He contended that the granting the supplie$
^a^ ihc only check either the representatives or the people
liad over the King's servants, to bring th^m to a proper sense
0i£ thj&ff 6xAj \ that the present ministers were boih weflkim^^
nvicketfy he therefore, for his part, would itever consent to trust
l^iem, urith lihe puiadic sDOoeyi* vhicJot they bad so repeatedly
262 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775,
squandered, in effefting the most infamous and corrupt pur-^
poses. He added he was convinced of the King's good under*
standing and disposition; but that unfortunately he saw
through a false medium, through a fog and,*a mist, raised by
his ministers, by which he was prevented from seeihg objects
di'siindUy, and in the manner they truly appeared.
. The question was put, and agreed to, without farther op-.
position,
OBober 3 1 ,
Mr. F. Montagu said the resomtions of the House made
last session, respefting private bms, having been found in«
jconvenient, he wished they might undergo a revision. Ho
moved that a committee be appointed for that purpose.
Agreed to.
Hon. Mr. Marsham said, that as the noble Lord [Lord
North] had not given the House any satisfa£Hon relative to
introducing the Hanoverian troops into Gibraltar and Port
Mahon ; and as he had heard nothing in justification, which
had yet reconciled him to that measure, he took the opportu-
nity of giving notice to the House, that he meant to move for
leave to bring in a bill of indemnity at a short day j unless
the minister, meaning to save hijn the trouble, would rise and
assure the House, that he intended to do it himself.
Lord North said, as far as his own thoughts went, he was
perfectly satisfied of the legality of the measure ^ yet, as some
gentlemen seemed, apprehensive that it might be hereafter
drawn into precedent, as an individual, he had no objection
to concur in any measure which might tend to keep the heads
of miilisters more securely on their shoulders. He added, he
had consulted several, who united in opinion with him, that
bills of indc^mnity were never resorted to, but to defend' the
advisers of objectionable measures against actions at lav ; but
never against a criminal charge, on which the person ofFend-r
ing, or supposed to offend, was liable to be impeaphed. He
said, he had a resolution in his pocket, which he drew out and
read ; " Resolved, That it is the opinion of this House, that
his Majesty having ordered a body of his electoral troops
to cmipose part of the garrison of the ifortresses of Gibraltar
and Miaprca, whereby the greater part of the troops of this
kingdom may be employed for the support of his authority,
has shewn his attention to the interests of this country, bein^
in the opinion of this House, a measure necessarily deniahd?
ing more dispatch than was consistent with waiting for the
assembling of Parliament.
Hon, Mr. Marsham excepted to the resolution \ Arst, as it
A- X775r- DEBATE S. I 163
did not by a^iy means come up to his idea on the subjeA ;
secondly, though it had, he could never agree to encounter
the established law of the land, springing out of the consti-
tution, by a resolution of one House of Parliament.
Governor Johnstone said, he disapproved both of the bill
and resolution j and he believed it would be difficult to quote
a more respeftable authority than supported him in his opinion.
He remembered well, than in a speech * attributed to Lord
Mansfield, universally given him by the public, and believed
to be genuine, that noWe Lord, who when he rides the horse
of liberty, which he wished he would ride oftener, for nobody
knew how to ride him better when he mounted him, speaking
of the aft of indemnity, relative to stopping up the ports to
prevent the exportation of corn in 1 766, does not treat biUsf
of indemnity, as applyii^g to the paltry consideration of being
a bar to private aftions ; but describes them as favours and in-
dulgences to ministers, as pardons for mere blunders and
errors, not proceeding from the intention^
Lord Mrtb said, his i*esolution might be made the resolu*
tipn of both Houses by a conference.
Hon. Mr. Marsham still said, that was by no means satis-
f^ftory, and gave notice that he should move to-morrow for
leave to bring in a bill of indemnity.,
November i.
. The House waited some time for Lord Norths but Ws Lord-
ship not coniing, Lord Barrington laid before the House the :
army estimates, and mentioned the taking them into conside*
ration oh Monday next, the 6th.
C6L Barri desired to know the number, state, and dispo-
sition of the troops in America, according to the lafl returns
Lord Barringtof^ ^zid Jie could not satisfy the honourable
gentleman ; but before Monday ho would consult some papers
which would eaable him to answer as much of those particu-
lars as are prudent to be disclosed,
CoK Barrf, What the noble Lord had now said is in the
true spirit of the administration. Give information they will
not ; but they will call upon Parliament to vote fresh troops,
without letting Parliament know the least of what they ought
to know concerning those which are already employed. I
shalj therefore move. That there be laid before the House an
account of the last returns of the number of effeftivc men, in
the sever^ regimeats and corps in his Majesty's service, serv-
S 4 mg^
♦ Se^ F.^rliamentary Debates for the year 1766, page 19$,
264 P A R L I A M EN T A R If A. 1775,
ving in North America, together with a state of the nmnber
of sick and wounded ; distinguishing the several places where
the said troops are stationed.
Mr. Cornwall desired the motion might be postponed tiH
Lord North came.
CoL Barri acquiesed.
Lord North came in in about twenty minutes.
Lord Barrington. Ever since I have been concerned in the
army, I know not of any precedent similar to what is now
called for. To call during a war, for the return of an army
has indeed been attempted, but was always opposed, as a
pra£tice which might prove exceedingly inconvenient. Itt
the present case, I do not know that any evils would flow
from it, but if done by a resolution of the House, it will
bjpcome a most dangerous precedent. As to the informadoii
which the gentleman wants, I can give it partly on my legs,
in which way it will not be a precedent; and if I am hot so
correct, from the papers which I have accidentally about mCji
as might be expected, against to-morrow I will procure those
which shall be more accurate.
Colonel Barri. The noble Lord gives me the strongest,
ground, that the thing I demand will be of no evil conscr
quence. Without entering into the matter of precedent, why *
not give the House an > information which can do no harm,
^nd may do much good ? But in these matters accuracy is to
be wished for ; and I see no reason if the noble Lord lets us
into the faits in general, why he should refuse the return it-
self, which is asked for in the motion. As to telling it mc,
I want not to have a private curiosity gratified— I want not to
be paid in private a public debt. The information should be
general. The ministers and officers of the crown have ad-
mitted that they were deceived — ^they have deceived ParUa^
mcnt •, which would not have been the case, had information
been laid before us : my motion demands only information,
that before we vote more troc^ we may know something con-
cerning those we have already. Let the noble Lord be expli-
cit in his information ; let ys know to what extent future es-
timates are to go, that when we have voted one pumber, sup-
posing it to be the total, there may not be after demands. The.
House must proceed in the dark, as we have hitherto done, if
we are nutmformed what the state of the army in Boston is,
and what the distribution is to be. The information \ haTc
had, which is that of the public, is only that of the troops
being besieged; a light-house burnt under the nose of
the dcetf said the men sent to repair it carried off by the ene-
A. r77Si^ ©DERATES,! j4$
mj.- Let us knoirthd mithyand weshailthenbe jMetor
proceed uritii our eyes oJ)tti.'- •
Lord Barrmgtm* The last Feittm is that of July the I9thy '
xrhich was received here tl^e ajth of Oftobat*. Bjr this it arp-
pears that the number of ^ men in Boston, exclusive of three
rcgimcJits going over to join them, was 8550, of whfch 148a'
were sick and wo.unded, and 354 missing, of which^-* ■
Right hon. JVelbora Ellis interrupted his Lordship, aftd-
ironically said, I submit it to the noble Lord, whether it
%vould not be also for the information of the House, to lay be-
fore us these particulars of the rebel army ?
• Col. Barri. I give the right honourable gentleman credit
^r what he says \ lay before the House the nunfiber zaA
strength of the provincial troops, that we may know whe^
ther you can fight them, that we may judge of your demands^
and know if 'the troops you ask will be as Competent to the
service they -ar*^ to perform' as were those 6f hst year.* He
(Expressed his isurprize that goyemmeiit hadtno I'eturns of the
army later than the 19th of July.
Right 'hon. T. Town/hend. On the point of precedlmt, 1
can give the iK>ble Lord one,* fully in point. I mof ed for the
return of the regiments employed ki the afiair of St. Vincent*Si
and It was laid before the House.
' Lord Barrington. That return was not called for till the
affiiir was over: in the present case the war continue^; #hick
make§ the difference. [Denied by Mr. Townshend.]
Hon. Mr. Fofc. It is evident from what has passed that the
plea of a^Sling contrary to precedents will riot avail the noble
Lord. That point is satisfa^orily, cleared up. What there-
fore is the true reason for the ministers refusing to lay the i»*
formation called for before the House I Merely, I assert, to
keep Parliament in ignorance. Was the fair truth to be laid
before the House, the demands of ministers %vottld be incofi-*
sistent with the fafts they produced'. This was the Case last
session, and they have kept back all informiation* and Impok^d
on the House in order to get the cry of the j>eople before the
extent of the evil was known. But they hive taken dare to
a degree of afie^Hion to inform yoiii that it is the rights not of
the crown but of Parliament, for which they arc fitting,
and yet with an inconsistency worthy only of themselves, they
win not allow Parliament the least information to kno# how
to fight for thoiie rights which they say are peculiarly its own*
This is the condu^. Sir, which has driven from them somjb
of the^most manly and respeftable characters in the kingdenn
^hey were deceived 5 they openly tell these men who call
' them.
%66 PARLIAMENTARY; A, 1775:
themselvdi ministerSf you deceived us ; you would not let us
know the state either of America^ or the force you had there
to quell the disturbances y a£ting thus in the darkj we were
led into error J but we will not persist in it ; we know your in«
tentiQnal deceit, and we leave you. This, Sir, is also the
case of Parliament ; and the only remedy for the case is Par-*
liament's imitating the conduct of those manly characters, by
refusing to vote away the money of their constituents for mea-
' $^res about which they are absolutely in the dark*
Sir GfJbert Elliot, Whether or not the precedent be for or
against the information, I shall be equally against the motion.
It would make a precedent of the most mischievoiis tendency.
What is the return of an army ? Why every particidar con-
cerning it given with the utmost accuracy, and perfe£Uy au-
thentic ? Can it ever be proper to publish such a state of one^
while your enemy is in the field ? Would it not be giving
him intelligence of the most advantageous nature ? Could any
ministers carry on the business of the public, 'if any gentleman
in this House had a right tp call for such an account ? It
would be impossible. If ministers a-ft badly they should be
turned out of their places : but the public service can never
be advanced by calling for accounts which destroys your con-
fidence in them.
Mr. Burke. So, Sir, it is now laid down as a maxim
|iot only to refuse the information, but to take care that such
information shall never be given-^and this is to be the case^
because Parliament, instead of calling for information, should
give confidence to ministers. This, Sir, is not only telling
us that we must bear our ignorance, but perpetuating it 5 ana
making a minister's having forfeited a right to all confidence^
the greatest plea for placing the more in them for the future*
This is a mode of reasoning I never heard of before. As to
the importance of the information now called for, and the
danger of producing it, it makes one smile. Can you ima^
gine that this army return of July last, can be conveyed to
America, and become better intelligence than General Wash-
ington has already ? I will not have so poor an opinion of hi^
abilities, who could write that excellent letter, w^ have aU
read, to General Gage \ hpt suppose him» and the general^
Lee and Putnam, to be more assiduous and attentive. These
men know much more of your army than your retiu*n can
give them. They coop it up, besiege it, destroy it, crush it.
Your ofiicers are swept off by the rifles, if they show their
^oses.
tor4
A 1775. DEB A T E S. 76t
Lord Nefrt!!> md, tbit before the year 1763, the ai^th^rity
of the British legislature was not denied in America. He •
said, the repcaliiag thirteen a£b of Parliament, would not
i[x»nsequently place us in the same situation in which we then
were. He ly^hed as ardently as any person to stop the rf-t
Vision of blood oQ both sides ; but thought it could only be
cffefted by sending over a formidable army early in the spring*
and appointing proper persons on the spot to give pardons, as
mentioned in the speech: these were the only methods he said,
which could, in his opinion, restore matters to that desired
fpotiiig ; lamd when that period should arrive, he did not
4oubt but his conciliatory plan would give permanency to the
r^onciliatioii by our accepting a quantiwi annually in lieu of
tjaxes. He declared himself against the motion, as it would
ground a precedent for fixture abuses 5 he said the case of the
Caribbs was very different from the present : in that the mt«
Hiister. was accused of sending too many men to an unwhole*
som^ climate \ and, besides, there was no great danger of the
Caribbs reading our accounts.
. Colonel Barr^ observed, that the conduct of the minister
ifi withholding every proper information from the House*
put him in mind of a King, who perceiving one end of a
Lutheran church exceedingly ruinous and all the rest of it
very good and elegant, proposed to rebuild that part for them %
which he did in a very magnificent manner \ but when they
came to assemble there, they found that he had taken away
all the light ; upon which they waited on his Majesty, thank-
ing him for his favours, and also acquainting him with their
misfortune, in not being abl^ to see at church \ upon which
his Majesty replied it w^s perfectly right so : for it is written
in thq scriptures, ^^ Blessed are they that believe and do not
$ee/'
The question was then put, and the House divided, when
the numbers were, for the motion, 63 5 against it, 170.
' Colonel Barri also moved, that there be laid before this
House, an account of the artillery, arms, ordnance, and tnili*
tary stores, issued from the office of ordnance^ sent to Ame^
rica, from the first of Sfeptember, 1773, to the first of Sep-
tember, 1775. It passed in the negative.
The House resolved itself into a committee of supply.
Mr* BtsUer moved, that 28,000 seamen, including 6665
jn vines, be voted for the service of the year 1776, at the
rate of 4!. per month, each man, for maintaining them for
thirteeen months. He spoke of the stations of the fleet ;
particularly that ^ fleet under ^ command of Admird
. , ^huldhasxi^
269 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775;
Shuldhanii who was to command in-Noith' America) was to
consist of screnty-eight sail.
Admiral Jiu^i^ opposed the motion, as inadequate to a
war^ and too large for a peace establishment. Said no vessel*
could keep the sea upon the coast of Nort& America in the
winter season; arraigned the proceedings of the first lord of
the Admiralty in his conduA of the navy, which herepre*
sented to have been in a much better situation before the pre*
so^l nobk L6rd came to the head of that department, thad
since.
Hcmourable Captain LuttrelL When the address, whichy
we arcf told, pledged us to nothing, passed this, House, I did
suppose ministry would think it politic to Tote navy, army,
militia, supplies, and every grant they may want, to exhaust
the treasure of this country, without giving time for refiec*
tion, information, or enquiry ; and therefore I am not sur-r
prixed at the precipitate manner in whieh the honotiTabk
membef has brought before us a question of such great na^-
tional import ; but as I suspefted it, I was eager to leartt from^
the noble Lord opposite to me, when he iSnentioned the num<p
ber of land forces proposed to be cmplcrj;ed for the" present^
y«:ar, what the naval establishment was to consist of? Hii
tx)Fdship carefully avoided being thus communicative, though
he assured us in too general terms, that the most prober oeco^
noniy had been, and would be, observed with respeA to ther
mvy. Sir, I do not mean to accuse that noble Lord of an
inclination to impose upon this House, or the public, because
his ignorance of naval affairs will acquit hhn with me of airf
sfuch design. But, Sir, let him beware here ho^- he put*
implicit faith in tlie information of a man, who with httlei
more maritime knowledge, may perhaps have much subtlety^
and is wise to rest such assertion as this upon the credit of tho
Itoble Lord rather than upon his 0^?^ ; for I belietre it will
puzzle- any mail in this House to produce more than one in^
stance where this boasted oeconomy has been observed, and
tbefe ^ofusion would have been excusable^ if not comnoend-
able— I mean, Sir, when his Majesty went to review his fleet
at Portsmouth. But, Sir, it would take me till midnight
to enumerate the various instances of bad management, igno^
ranee and extravagance that have followed one another since
the noble Lord, who now presides at the head of the Admi-*
ralty, was appointed to such office ; proceeding in part, I am
gure, from his not taking the advice of a very able and rc-
spe^bble sea officer, who is a Lord of that board, but ob-
^inatdj ibUowmg Ihs own nay^iidte^) ^ beihg unaUe ct
A. I77S- I> E:B A t E S. ib^
t^nwilUng to duscem^ that though a subtle statesman, he i»
but an ordinary seamen.
Sir, where then is this oeconomy to be found ? Is it in the
summer parade of that noble Lord, sailing from one King's
port to the other, and wasting every year some hundred pound*
0^ the public money, by the single expenditure of powder^
to notify his arrival ? By prostituting the honour of the jSagy;
and claiming distundtions he must know, if he knoy^s. ai^;
thiiig of the service, be is no way entitled to, and' therefoi^c^.
ought to be ashamed of. Is it by the Jk)ss to the pubi^ o£
die artificers laboiur, while they are doing homage to this
mighty Lord? Js it. Sir, in sending a royal yacht with hi^
flpnto Lisbon, which will cost the public loool. wh^a he
mght have gone in a packet for 50L Js it, Sir^ ifi the wise
regulations he has made in the navy, which we hear of in tlm;
news papers, a^d by his dependants, but no where else ? Off
ji it, Sir, m tbatcardful inspection into ^ state of the fleet
90! to prevent abuses, that the best men of war may be spldfbs
a thousand pounds^ while the worst appear to have cost forty
thou$iand in. repair ? And, Sir, as it is the custom to call up
th? attention of. ^c country gentlemen upon every alarming
subjeA} I will crave that indulgence for a minute to mark
Ane infltance out of very many where this ceconomy is not tQ
1^ founds
.[J% tien entered into the abuses, and misapplications thai;
had prevailed in the naval aconomy since the year 1770. Hi
ibemedy that thctugh in tie course of Jive years upwards of tnvQ
millions sterling had been granted by Parliament for the repairs
^ the navy ^ over. and above the sums annualh for wear and tear^
yet the navy debt had encreased in the same five years upwards ^
five hundred thousand pounds. He .proved that the Africa^ a
ihip'of seventy guns >, had been sold for nine hundred pounds y though
she: meu in better order than two-thirds if the fleet y and could
have -been made at^ good as new for 3000/. while it appeared upon
the journals of the House ^ that there had been demanded of Par'^
Hamenty fir the use of the Dragon man of war only^ within four
years y though she had never been at sea in the timej 32,973/.
Mng extra work over and above nvhat she had cost under the ar-^
tieles <f wear and tear^ and ordinary*; and is now laid up in
Fareham Creek unfit for service without further repair. He
likewise provedy that the fioble Lord at the head of the board was
the cattle of the late insurreBioti of the shipwrights y as he had en*
couraged Jtiem to petition the, Parliament for an encrease ofwages^
intpposkion to thet.^^pjicatiim of the captains ^f the navy fir an
mt^mtififi.tbfir >bti^fiffif^:hi,iimseff:ibA^^ tbnr nrnmittef
S^i PARLrAMEKTART A. 17^^/
having taxed tke Americans^ as he did on the 6theirf thdr
tnode of resistance* He put the House in miad^ thait the
Aoble Lord [Lord North] had in the last session given k ad
his firm opinion^ that the forces, then votedj aad the oth^
measures the House had adopted, would put an end.'tOaU
emr mihappy disputes with America, even wjibout a 4K>p
of bloodshed; and that notwithstanding we j^ fdt so stf-
rionsly the grievous effects of these iH-advised xxkcastaxtfn the
noble Lord, be said, wkh fatal experience agitinflt hini^ way
determined to seek, our total ruin, by perseverifig in-the sasiiie
ivild and extrava^^t system ; instead of whichf he add^dy
lender of conciliation on terms suited to the true spirit enf
the British constitution ought to be preferred -and h^d out
to the Americans, which, if found not to prevail, to r^
Hlftquish all connections with thexa ; ot otherwise, if prafti-*'
cable, to harrass them with your fleets, b^ interrupting their
trade, till at lengtzh they might perhaps be brought to sue
fer protedtion. Contended that measures of this nature
would save the nation from impending ruin and destrufisont
whic^h must otherwise be attendant on the system of coerdkm
and conquest ; that our finances might thus be kept unim-'
paired ', that we should have nb occasion for foreigki troops,
for the vast exercise of our army establishment, or for caUing
forth the militia to the prejudice of trade and of the culti«
ration of our lands, and that we should preserve to ourselves
what it was to be feared might be too soon wanted, security
at home against foreign or domestic insults ; and that in the
worst event, the loss of America could never be adequate to
the blood and treasure of which this country must be ex-
hausted in the endeavours to recover it, and to preserve it, i£
in the end victorious.
The motion was agreed to without a divisicm^ ai&d Mr-
Speaker resumed the chair.
Lord Norti? said, although his o^ti particular sentin^ents
continued to be, that the measure of sending part of his
Majesty's electoral troojis, to form a part of the garrisons of
Gibraltar and Minorca was perfectly legal and constitutional^
under the circumstances in which it was done, yet as several
gentlemen did not see the matter in the same light, to whon^
he would wish to give every satisfaction in his power, he
would move for leave to bring in a bill of indemnity* His.
I^ordship accordingly moved the House for leave to bring in
a bill to indemnify such persons as have advised his Majesty
to send to the garrisons of Gibraltar and Port MahoD> a ^%
A.i77Si D E B A T t S. 271
so artfully discretional) that if your ships should be wrecked
. upon that frozen coastj or anv misfortune attend them, the
blanfie may be laid on the Admiral^ and his reputation as an
officer be sacrificed to shelter the wicked proceedings of these
ministers.
. Sir, an honourable member told us, we need not be dis^
pirited with our misfortunes in America, for that our fleets
were unsuccessful at the beginning of the late war, but after-r
wards proved vidorious. Sir, this is a position similar to that
of the naval (economy, which I think can hardly be marked
in above (me instance^ I mean the loss of Minorca. Where
else did ill-success await our naval arms ? Was it in Europe,
Asia, South or North America, where from the conunence*
ment to the conclusion of the war we were making captures ?
How then, Sir, was the ill-success, misfortunes, or calami*
ties that attended t^s country in any foreign war, to be com-
pared to the sea of trouble we are now embarked in, but
which I hope to God may calm sooner than I' fear the minds
of those men will (ib, who can tell us, in a language that is
sh(x:king to hear, they are riveted to coercion agaii^st our fd«
low-subjeds in America.
Lord Hinchinbrcke said, his brother was in such a situation,
the noble Lord [his father] had no other means of sending him.
Lord North said, the ships built at the end of the war, were
built of green wood, which not being so durable as the sea*
soned wood, were very bad, had lately proved very rotten,
and that this circumstance had been the cause of the great ex«
pencc.
Sir y» G. Griffiriy said, he did not get up to oppose the
numbo- of seamen, because he thought if any operations
were to be continued against the Americans, they ought to
be conline(l to that service only. He then declared that he
had hitherto supported government on principles, without
regard to men; thinking it his duty as an honest man so to
do, as long as the true interest of the country appeared to
be coniKuUed, and the public affairs conduced to the credit
or honour of the nation; denied that to be the case at pre*
sent, and called on any of the minister's best friends to con-
tradift him ; adding, he should ill deserve to sit there any
longer, if he continued to afibrd his support to men, the
effeAs of whose mistaken and pernicious measures had re-
duced Us to so shameful and dishonourable a situation. Pro*
fessed himself an advocate for the supreme legislative autho-
rity of this country over its c(donies; disclaimed howev^ qti.
t4ie one hand vindicating the rash and rndss^cit^tx. \sii(»s5vn<t ^\
4ti PARLTAMEHTAltT . A.-t^^
having taxed tkeAmericansy as ke did 4m the ^^tber, Aaat
tnode of resistance* He put the House in rniBd^ Aai the
Aoble Lord [Lcard North] had in the last session givien .k at
his firm opinion, that the forces, then votedj and the ^athor
measures the House had adopted, would put an catijMiail
emrtmhappy disputes with America^ eWn wMilnife a.^dfpp
of bloodshsid; and that notwitlistanding we lA.ftU le 60»
rioosly the grievous effects of these Sl^^uMmA xaeawfCfti Ae
noble Lord, be said, wkh fatal experience* Hg^want. -Ji«9^ ww
determined to seek, our total nun, by pcrseveriag ipf dto. awtp;
wild and extrava^^t system ; instead of wixiehi- Jbe- «dUl(dy
lender of conciliation xm terms stiited to the true fi^iurit e(
the British constitution ought to be proferrdd ^and hdd 0aii
to the Axnericans, which, if found not td prevail, ^|o w^
Hftquish all conne^ticms with thexa ; of otfaerwifie, if ffn£AJ
cat>le, to harrass them ^ith your fleets, b^ internipdng their
frade, till at length they might perhaps be brought to sue
fer protedtion. Contended that meastures of tius natuie
wouM save the nation from impending ruin and destiruftioa^
which must otherwise be attendant on the system of coeraqufc
and conquest ; that our finances might thus be kept uaiflEM
paired ; that we should have nb btcasion for foreigb tBocps,
for the vast exercise of our army tfstablishxnent, or nu* cuUh^
forth the militia to the prejudice of trade and of Ac cuiti*
Tatidn of our lands, and that we should preserve tooursolves
what it was to be feared might be too soon wanted, jecurity
at home against foreign or domestic insults ; aind that iki the
worst event, the loss of America could never be adequaite t»
the blood and treasure of which this countty rnnsC be ex<*
hausted in the endeavours to recover it, and to preserve ky if
in the end victorious.
The motion was agreed to without a divisiofiy aod.Afitv
Speaker resumed the chair.
Lord North said, although his own particular scntuncati
continued to be, that the measiu-e of sending part of hi$ .
Majesty's electoral troops, to form a part of the garrisons of
Gibraltar and Minorca was perfectly legal and constitutkmalt
under the circuinstances in which it was dcHie, yet as aevenk
gentlemen did not see the matter in the same light, to itboqi
he would wish to give every satisfaction in his. powcTf b^
would move for leave to bring in a bill of indemnity* Hhl
I^ordship accordingly moved the House for leave to faring in
a bill to indemnify such persons as have advised his Mbjesty
to send to the garrisons of Gibraltar and Port MahlMH ft vm\
■-•.•■..•■•;:-.;. Of
A. X775. ^ 2 6 A 'T -fev IBt.'' i7j
t)ir the ele£torai troops of Hanover^ during the recesis of Paur^
lament.
Agreed to. ^
Navetfiier 2if
A petition of me 'merchants and traders of the town, anl
bounty of Poole was presented to 'the House, and read ; setting
ibrth, that it has been fepl-esented to the petitidners, that the
HVest India merchants intend to apply to parliament for leave
to export provisions and other necessaries from Great-Britain
to the "West thcila islands j. and therefore the petiti<>ners pray,^
that they may also be' permitted to export, from Great-Britain^
provisions and other necessaries, for the use 6f the British
jBshciry carried on at Newfoundland and the plates ladjacent>
as the American sources are stopped, and to give them suck
other indiilgencies, for the l>enefit of that tirade^ as to tht
^ouse shall seem meet.
Ordered to lie upon the table.
A petition from the merchants of Dartmouth, in the coun-
ty of Devon, engaged in, and carrying on, a trade and fishery
to, and at the island of Newfoundland, was presentted to the
House, and read ; setting forth, that the unhappy differences
now subsisting between Great-Britain and her American colo^
nies having occasioned the latter to withhold the tisual supplies
of bread, flour, and other provisions, which they have hirfiertb
afforded to the inhabitants of Newfoundland, and to the great
numbers of seamen and fishermen annually engaged in catching
and curing fish at that island, and on the banks, the prices of
those necessaries of life have been enhanced this season near
three times their usual rate, to the ruin of many, and the great
loss of all those who are obliged to purchase such articles in
Newfoundland ; and that the quantities of bread, flour, and
pease, allowed by law to be exported from the port of Dart-
mouth for Newfoundland being very inadequate to the necessary
copsumption of those articles, it will be impossible for the peti-
tioners to carry on any trade and fishery to that island the en*
suing season, unless they have power for exporting such quan>
tities of thpse articles as may be suflBcient for supporting not
only the people immediately employed by them in their re-
spective trades, but also great numbers of inhabitantis of that
island, and others who annually resort thither to carry oh the
fishery \ and that the petitioners cannot, with any degree of
precision^ ascertain what quantity of each of the said articles
may be necessary iot these purposes, but they conceive great
disadvantages may possiUy arise £rom theh* being stinted, and
no inconveniences likdy to accrue £^osn\SMMi\la^f\s^^^
l74 PARLifAMeiftAltr A.t7tJ#
16 e^pcirt to the said hhmd toch qmntHiat ii thdr fbtore adU
vices therefrom may mtke them )viige necessary ; and there*
fore praying, that they ftiaj have liberty to cxportf froiii the .
I^^rt of Dartmouth fat the ishnd of NewfouiuUancU any tpmoi*
titles of bre^d, flom" and pdase, withoot stmt, or to give tfatf
petitioners such other relief hi the prenuses 8» siay be jtedgeJ
liecessary.
Ordered to Be upon the table.
Lord ^tfrnW^ presented the anny esdbnaf^/ JjyLqltA*
»hip said, that uie accounts td the army returns, wfak& he ha<l
tead yesterday, were not the latest ^ that the annj at BMM
Consisted of 7415 men.
Colonel BarrS (after ^Eskmg soffte questiohs, vriiidi Lord
Barrington answered) said, that the aiiny m America codsiit*
di of twenty battalions and a half ; and these battalknss ac-
cording to his Lordship, did not contain atbove half their pro*
per number of men.
Lord Barrington declined going mto any arguments vpOBf
Ac subjedt.
The order of the day for reading a second titne the biHibt
Embodying the militia.
Mr. Hartley. I shall beg leave upon the presenf: oetasidD
to take a scope wide of the immediate business, and ofier an
observation or two upon the necessity of having some measur e
of a conciliatory nature to attend tiiose coercive ones wfaidi
are brought forward agamst America with so much haste* I
would propose that there should be some test of sabmission
held out, by which the colonies may prove their submission to
the legislative power of this country. I think the best vrouki
be the recognition of an 7t£t of Pariiament, to be registered
in the assembly of such colony w9Kng to submit. And I
thmk the best should be one which exercises a contmlfii^
power over the colony ; for instance, suppose ft was to ena$
that all the slaves in America should have the trial by JQry«
The recognition of this and the submission to its operation
l^ould yield the requisite proof of duty. When this aftoal
recognition of an aft of Pariiament shall have replaced the lb-
gislative authority of this country without question or dimi*
nution, as it was before the commencement of thc^ tronUes
then, as an aft of merhed justice to such colonies as shall have
given this proof of their return to their allegiance^ let their
grievances be redressed ; let the operation of all the afisf cpm^
plained of, cease, ipsofaHo^ in each colony respeftfvelT where
llie required recognition shall have been conipiijsd itith.
Tiiii proposition seems t^^ m<i to \» ^c^tafeSa ia iti^t f *
hope it will be thought by ^ parties to be definite, isati$£i£to*
rjr, and prafticablc.
Mr. CharUt Turner. I a£ri dgainn the present bill upon
tvery account, as I am agsrin'st mUitias in general; The pro^
per men to recruit and supply your troops are the scum and
outcast of cities and manufactures, feUoilirs who Toluntarily
submit to be slaves by an apprenticeship of sev«i years are
the proper persons to be military ones. But to take the
hon^> sfober, industrious fellow from the plough, is doing an
essential mischief to the community, and laying a double tax*
The militia is likewise more expenjsive than the regulars, and .
therefore the more improper at present.
Lord MoHntHev>art. I do not rise t6 oppose the present
bill,1)ecause I am clear that the force-of a militia is the triie
constitutional force to be relied on by this or any kingdom \
but. Sir, I Wish to see no longer a partial militia^— I wish to see
an end of a line of distinction drawn between countries, which
in nature and in land are the same : I wish to see a militia in
North Britain. What reason can be assigned i&gainst it ? The
«tain of rebellion b wiped out ; it is done aWay forever, by
the loyalty of the people, and the uncommon exertions they
made for the crOwn in the last war. I do not mean now to
bring this matter under consideration, but give notice that I
shall take an early open day to propose it.
Mr. Dunning. He condemned the bill% Instead of the
ostensible motives held out by this bill, the militia may be
employed in the most alarming and unconstitutional manned
It throws a power into the hands of the King, hitherto un^
known to the constitution. He took a retrospective view of
measures in general i and introduced some strictures on ad^
dresses ; particulary that from the first battalion of the mili^
tia of the county of Devon. The very honourable and wor-
thy gentleman [Mr. Ackland] who helped to procure that ad-
dress, and presented 4t, he supposed, consulted the noble Lord
£Lord North] upon it } and he had good ground to believe
the noble Lord corrected it. The address speaks its origiii
fiiily 5 it makes a tender of their services with their swords
drawn, not to use them against the common enemy, any of
the branches of the house of Bourbon, not even against th)l>
Americans, for they could not act against either out of the
kingdom, but again^ his Majesty's internal enemies, that
is, such who' in this House, Or elsewhere, dare to hold a
contrary opinion with the framer and author of it. He said^
the tendency of the present bill is exceedingly .d\fEatx^itQ«DL
Che old milkia lawj and* therefore demtoAa %xk tx^Ti^.*
tj6 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^
tion, that the House may know how different the situation of
the gentlemen now in the militia will be» when the bill i»
passed, from what it is at present* They and the men enter-
ed into that engagement with their countrj, under the ea>
press circumstances that they were never to be called out but
m time of invasion or rebellion in England, or imminent dan-
ger of one or the othe?. This condition secured them from
being at the beckon of a minister, to be called out under pre-
tences of a distant or imaginary danger. They knew the na-
ture of the very cause in which they were to draw their swords^
but what will be their situation if this bill passes ? it will be
in the power of the minister to embody the militia, and put
them under the mutiny aA, if a rebellion is only apprehended
in Bengal, in St. Helena, in the most distant and insignificant
dependency of the crown. To draw their swords in defence
of their king and country, is what they entered expressly and
chearfiiUy to do ; but to be made soldiers in spite of tdicm-
selves, to serve not their country in great and fearful exigen-
eies, but to second the apprehensions or evil designs of a mi*
nister, is being in a situation so totally different, that no ar-
guments can convince me they will endure it. I am a friend
to the old militia, because it can only be drawn out in cases
prescribed by the constitution, but I am an enemy to this new
scheme, because it in h& annihilates that meritorious milxtia,
and gives you a monster in its stead.
A nobl^ lord has touched upon another militia — a militia ta
be composed of a set of people of a complexion which has not,
it seems, been thought by the legislature to recommend them
to possess it : a northern militia 1 From the manner in which
the intimation is given I take it for granted the plan is de-
termined, and that we may consider it as one of the measures
which are at present so rapidly combined ; and it leads me
naturally to the great question of America, to sKew how these
measures are united in order to be effectual ; and I shall the
readier undertake it, as next week I shall be othervrise em-
ployed.
It is curious to observe what are the auxiliaries which due
present adininistration call to the assistance of the British con-
stitution ; Catholicks from Canada, if they can be induced
to 7i£t ; Irish Papists ; a new militia in England^ composed
of a description of men exceedingly different from those who
composed the old one ; a Scotch militia, of a description that
I will not name ; Hanoverian mercenaries to garrison the two
great fortresses of the. Mediterranean $ and, to crown the
wifeoie, 2o,oco Ruwians, to proie&\!^<t\cgksJi'aX\^eauthiW^^ of
A. 1775- DEB A T "E S- * irjr
diis country. It has been declared in another house, that thit
Russians are not to be sent to Amorica, therefore they are, w^t
piay presume, to be brought here. He wished to know what
object we were now contending for with America. It was not;
for taxes, as we might easily perceive, hy Geneneral Burgoyne's
letter to General Lee \ for a gentleman of his good sense, and
who held so high a post under government, would not ven-
ture to assert so, much without some authority. It could not
be said that we were contending for the general unlimited
pgwer of parliament over every part of the empire \ for the se-
cretary of a neighbouring kingdom had contradifted that idea,-
by assertinff, " that expressions of that kind which had been
made in that House by a gentleman in an high office, were
no more than the rash inconsiderate opinion of an hasty in-
dividual." — He wished to be fairly understood with regard to
his ideas of Rebellion : he said he never had considered it as
a genus which might be divided into several distinct spe-
cies; yet he was apt to imagine, that there might be one
sort of rebellion less deserving our hatred than another ;
that there might be a provoked and an unprovoked rebellion,
of which each merited different degrees pf censm^. He then
proceeded to ridicule the motley complexion of our intended
forces, which were to consist of Hanoverians, Russians, savage
Canadians, 'and Irish Roman Catholics. He said he had
heard, that a singk regiment could march from one end of
North America to the other 5 but he desired to know, if it
was not more probable than 26,000 Russians cbuld march from
Johnny Grott's house to the Land's End. On the whole, he
declared that he H'as against this, as well as most of the other
measures of government \ that he stood alone, unconnected
with any party ; that he despised any man, who,* at such a cri-
tical junfture as the present, could be swayed by any personal
motive whatever ; that, for his part, he spoke ex atmnoy and
he hoped, the House would give him credit for his assertion.
H^ concluded by observing, that although he might not, per.-
haps, be able to give that close attendance to the business of
the Hou3e which he could wish, yet he would uniformly op-
pose the ministry in every step they should take to enforce
measures whi^h he heartly condemned.
Sir George, Tonge informed the House of the manner in
which the Devonshire address was obtained, without the
knowledge or concurrence of the gentlemen pf property
in the county.
Mr. Kigby. I should not have risen to the present ques*-
|ion, had ^pt tlie lear-ije^ gentleman brought me into a con*»
T 3 ^^\s:.\\R>\>s.
Tft P ARLIAMElfTARY A- «77S*
spicaous light}, from what an Infh secretary is sud to hxte
mentioned in another place. I have a great bpimon of tha%
gentleman's abilities ; and it is wery plain he has z very goo4
opinion of me, from the w^y he treats me. Because the
Irish secretary says I am a rash and inconsiderate individual^
therefore administration says I am so, for such and such senti-
ments. As to the right of taxing Ireland, I assert it upon
the solid authority or an aft of Parliament j if this Parlia-
jhent has a right to deprive the House of Lords of Ireland oi
their judicial right, in the dernier resort, it has a right to do
every thing else. But the learned gentleman has taken a
longer fieMi he has given us a rueful catalomie of troops,
which are to execute the measures, and among the rest ao,ooo
Russians. This is the first time that I ever heard a pliable
of Russiax^ coming here. It is true, I am not of the cabinet ;
I never was there in my life : but from the conneftions I
have, and from alj my information, I know of no such de-
sign. But whenever a war has been opened, which demands
foreign auxiliaries, various are those that have been hired.
The last war saw Wolfenbuttlers, Hessians, Hanoverians, and
I know not what, in our service ; and there was a Britannic
legion, which consisted of all the thieves in Europe : the
learned member, if disposed to ridicule, might call them and
the Marattas of the east, allies of the King of England. The
learned member enters very logically into the distinftions.
of rebellion, and from attending minutely to them, all I can
learn is, that there are two sorts of rebellion j one which the
gentleman likes very well, and one which he likes not at all.
He detests the rebellion of 1745, but likes the present passing
well. Now, for my part, although I think there is but one
kind of rebellion, I cannot carry my sentiments so fai" back
as the honourable gentleman ; for, whenever the Americans
shall return to their duty, and behave as loyally as the people
of Manchester, I shall not, by any means, consider them as
deserving my hatred j but shall readily give up the point of
taxation for honourable terms of accommodation with them.
Colonel Barri observed, though he was informed his ho-
nourable and learned friend could not stay long the present
evening, yet he did not believe, however extensive and pro-
fitable the prafticc of his learned friend might be, that he^
would negleft to attend his duty in that House on any affair'
of national importance, where his advice or assistance might
be serviceable to his country. He observed, that he had late-
ly heard many gentlemen in administration speak very mode-
rately of American affairs, and \x<^ e»i\oxt.ed them to throw
A.i77S*^ 5> 2 » A T 1 «; , :^
spme kind of a conciliatory proposition ^ethifi f^ ^ step tcH.
wards an accommodation. He requested tjbe jErion^s of • mi*
imtry not to be so very £b«^d of war, i$ %o ovcrliaiok an easy •
and honourable peace, which lay $o ixnxnediat^iy in their
way, that they could not but see it, if they WQuld Uit gi?if
themselves the trouble to look for it, and concjLuded by r^
minding the House, '' that Philip lo$t the tJiiit^ Province,
by being too tenacious of one single post.**
Mr. AcUemd. As I understa^ by whatdrppt from the
honourable gentleman wh(^ spoke lact, {[Colonel Barre] t^'
the honourable and learned gentleman [Mr. Dunning] may
probably soon leave the House, and as I do npjt intend ihstii
some aspersions the honourable and lojpied gentleman hai|
thrown out on me shall gp unnoticed, I rise now to give th6^
learned gentleman an opportunity of replying if he cl^ises it*
The learned gentleman began by calling me his honourable
friend, and immediatdy proceeded to give me the most une*^
Juivocal proofs of his friendship, by tlirxraring out assertions as
etrimental to an independent chara£ter:a^ they w^e unfound-
ed in fa£t. The learned gentleman has said, that tb^ addrcss^f
the first regiment of Devonshire militia, which I b^d the ho-
nour of presenting, was corrected by the noble Lord. If I
was to give way to the just diftates of my resentment, no ex-*
pression the English language contained would be ib-ong
enough to mark in its true colours such an unwarranted assert
tion ; but I will content myself with declaring to this House,
this full gallery, arid the whole world, that It is untrue. The
address, which has had the misfortune of drawing down -the
weight of that gentleman's resentment upon it, and which I,
it seems, in an unfortunate hour presented to his Majesty, if
Its containing strong sentiments of loyalty to the King, and at-
tacl^ent to the constitution, be a crime, is, I conjSess, nx)St
criminal. But, Sir, sorry am I to find, that expressions of
loyalty to the King and attachment to the constitution should
appear so criminal to that learned gentleman. This addresst
at which the gentleman is so much displeased, expresses, Sir,
a just abhorrence of every attempt to alienate the minds.of his
Bilajesty's subjects, and a readiness, when properly called op,
ito endeavour to suppress any internal enemies of the King
and this constitution. It is netessary that I should inform
this^ House, th^t about the time that this and many inflamma-;
tory papers, breathing a spirit adverse to all order and tranquil**
lity, had been, with an assiduity hitherto unknown, dispersed
through the west, ampngst others, letter's inviting to assQciate
''\ T4 haa
00 PARIIAMENTART A-iyy?;
had been sent to many of the principal magistrates and first
gentlemen of property; these associations were recommended
- on the principle that associations of the same nature had been
entered into previous to the Revolution. Now, Sir, we
imfortunate country gentlemen, who are not blessed with
those abilities which teach us to understand black when we
read white, did conclude, that if these letters of associatiouj^
so recommended, did imply any thing, they did imply the
necessity of another revolution. Under such circumstances^
Sir, in such times, were we not justified? Did we not
a£i the part of good citizens and good subjefb, publicly to
declare to the whole world our just abhorrence of every
attempt to alienate the minds of his Majesty's subje£b, and
to express our readiness, when properly called upon, to
exert our utmost endeavours to suppress any internal enemies
pf the King and this constitution; for, Sir, such inflammatory
papers and such circular letters of afibciation, are attempts to
alienate the minds of his Majesty's subjefts, and those men,
1 care not who they are, by whom such papers and such
letters were circulated, are enemies to the King" and this
constitution. An honourable gentleman observed, that not
above sixty or seventy people had signed the Devonshire
address •, I must tell that gentleman that he has been ^gregi-
ously misinformed, for I can assure this House, that nineteen
out of twenty of the principal resident representatives of the
property of the county signed that address. I must here beg
the patience of this House, as I am on my legs, to answer a
question which has been often thrown out from the other
side of the House. It is perpetually asked, how country gen-
tlemen, whom it seems it is the fashion of some gentlemen in
this House to ridicule, though J believe they would be very
clad of their support, can again trust an administration
tnat has so often deceived them ? For one, Sir, I answer, that
they never deceived me ; but if I had been deceived, I had
been deceived under the san(^ion of the gravest and most rer
speftable authorities of this House, under the sanation of that
honourable and learned gentleman himself, who diu-ingthe last
session of Parliament, when administration applied to Par^
Hament to strengthen the hands of government, compared
the disturbances then existing in the province of the Massa-
chuset's Bay to the riots that had. often happened at diflerent
times in different parts of England, which had been sup-
pressed with a very trifling, if not without any assistance of a
military forcQ. Would not therefore that gentleman and
his
A.I77S- D E B A T E ,S. 281
his friends have treated it as the most ridiculous, the most
absurd, the most extravagant, the wildest of ;ill wild doc-
trines, if administration had proposed to Piarliament to send
out a force adequate to the conquest of a whole continent,
to do what? Why, to suppress a few insignificant riots
in the M^issachuset's province, such as the honourable gen-
tleipan told you that you have had fifty times in this
country, and which have been suppressed without any
military aid at all. I again repeat, I have not been de-
ceived by administration, fpr I did not think the force com-
petent; but because a competent force was not sent out last
year, I do not think it good sense or good argument to
oppose the sending out a competent one this year ; nor should
I think, if at this time I withdrew my weak support from
administration, I should the next year have a right to accuse
administration for the ill success of meslsures, if they should
succeed ill, when I had done every thing in my power by my
opposition to prevent their execution.
Mr. Dunning apologized for the mistake he had been under
ycspefting the addFes$ from the Devonshire militia.
Right honourable T. Townshend called on the ministers to
know where the Russian troops were to be sent, as it wa4
asserted in the other House not to America ; and now,^ by Mr.
Rigby, not to England. He supposed to Ireland* Said that
innovations in the militia were dangerous, because every
standing oppressive force in Europe began with a harmless
militia. He detested the politics of administration, while he
compassionated the unhappy Americans, who had been pro-
voked to resistance by the late adts. He declared, that in his
opinion the necessity of embodying the militia of any part of
the kingdom could only be justified by local causes ; that if
there was a rebellion in Scotland, or in Wales, he should
vote for the embodying of the Scotch or Welch militia, but
not otherwise ; and that he differed in opinion from an ho-
nourable member [Mr. Rigby] who had asserted he knew but
of one kind of rebellion. Mr. Townshend in support of his
dissent from Mr. Rigby, instanced the rebellion of 1745,
, when the town of Manchester (who had now sent up an ad-
jdress, flattering the ministry, and abusing the gentlemen in
opposition) took an ostensible part against the present family.
Sir Thomas Egerton^ defended the town of Manchester ;
said he had signed their address, which did not contain any
abuse upon the gentlemen in opposition.
Right honourable T» Tcwnshetni cited the passage,
'' Mr.
a«2 P A R L 1 A M E N T A R Y A. 1775,
Mr. Burle observed, that the Manchester address was not
singular in the indecency of its language, but that sjl the
ministerial addresses spoke of those who. had epdeaTOured to
prevent the civil war in which this country was unhappily
now plunged, through the ruinous and destru£Uve measures
pursued by administration, in the most scurrilous and illiberal
manner. That the gentleman who defended Mandxe^er
stood in the same predicameat with many others who had
signed what they never read, and tlierefore were astonished whax
they afterwards heard the language of the addresses; lan-
guage, he said, which disgraced the name of Britons ; in
which the good-nature of Englishmen and the manners of
gentlemen were totally forgot ; and which, though procured
by courtiers, contained nothing charafteristk of them but the
most ignoble servility, and the most unmerciful encourage-
ment of barbarous, blood-thirsty me^iu^ei. There were two
other addresses, he declared, which c^kd loudly for the
censure of that House ; the address from the first battalion of
the Devonshire militia, and the address ffpm the University
of Oxford. These he termed the addressee military and eccle">
siastic^ addresses from persons who, at aQ tinies, and on all
occasionsj were debarred constitutionally from middling with
the politics of the country. He descanted largely on the first,
sliewing the impropriety of the militia, or any armed body's
soliciting to be employed against their fellow-subje<5s- Witl^
regard to the latter, he almost charged Lord North with^ hav-
ing not only seen it before it was presented to the King, bmt
with having altered the composition of it ; and if Lord N(Mth
avowed the propriety of the University' of Oxford (a body of
learned and religious men) interfering with politics, adyisin^
a civil war, and ciiling those that opposed it rebels and trai-.
tors, the freedom of this country was dead, her liberty wa^
no more. He painted in strong colours the situation of the
heads of an.Univerlity, who he declared ought, by no means
to instil politicid principles into the minds of those who were
not suiBciently matured, who knew too little of the world
to be able to judge of tbeir propriety, and to distinguish between
sound policy and destructive expedients. Every man, he ob-
5!:rved, must iGfi\ the violent er-or of such a conduct 5 he had
himself a son at tlie University, and he could not approve of
his son's bein;^ told by grave men, that his father was an
abettor of rebels. He concluded with declaring that Lord
North ought not only to have abstained from taking part in
the formation of that addi*ess, but that he oujjlu. to liave re-
. jeiled
A. 1775- DEBATES- adj
jefled It when it was sei^ to him/ and prevented it from being
presented-
Sir JVilliam Bagot related the origin of the Stafford address,
declaring that he had seen the address from London to the
c^eflors of Great Britain, and as he was not willing that the
gentlemen of the county should be seduced by it, he support-
ed at the sessions an address, containing sentiments very dif-
ferent from the London address, only one person, whom the
House well knew, [Mr. Wooldridge] objefting to it.
Hon. Capt. LuttrtU. When the last votes in favour of
the address (which I considered to be destruftive to the liber-
ties of America) passed this House, I thought we might take
Jeave of every ray of hope, that peace and good fellowship
would again subsist between our colonies and this country ;
I, however, felt this consolation, that, uninfluenced by sel-
fish views, or by the political interests of any man, -or set of
men whatsoever, I had discharged my duty agreeable to my
conscience, and the best of my abilities \ and as I could not
prevent, I had only to lament the future progress of this un-
natural war. But, Sir, in consequence of what fell from the
noble Lord on the opposite bench, I hold it a duty incumbent
on me, to offer to the House such intelligence as 1 have re-
ceived from America^ that I may not be comprehended
^unong the number of those gentlemen the noble Lord sup-
poses to be inclined to conceal, from him^ or the public^ what
they have reason to believe is the true and general sentiments
of the Americans*
Sir, a noble Lord has communicated to us the private infor-
mation he has received from a general oificer at Boston •, a ripHt
honourable member in my eye acknowledged the receipt of ^e^
letter from an ever memorable colonel, the substance of which
-ainounted to little more than this, that he lamented they had
been mistaken in their ideas of the provincial army. Sir, my
information comes not from a military man, but from a friend
of mine, whose family remains in this country, and who
went to America for the recovery of his health. Sir, he is of
a nation that will hardly be suspected of taking part in this
rebellion ; he is a man of good sense, sound judgment, quick
disceroiment, some philosophy, and much candour-, he is
known to many members of this House, having been a candi-
date for a seat in Parliament. I value his information, be-*
cause I believe it authentic ; and that I may not be supposed
to state it partially, as what he says of America is comprised
in a few lines, I will, with leave of this House, read them.
\Hcre Captwin Luttrell uad a Utter from New Tork^ dated
iht
3S4 PARLIAMENTARY A.1775.-
ibe beginning of September j which affirms i ** That the people
there aim not at independence, but are generally determin^
to die, rather than submit to the arbitrary claim of taxation^
though they are informed the French, their natural enemies^
have offered assistance against them."]
Now, Sir, if the information conveyed to America be true^
France is the foreign power that has offered us assistance.
What, Sir, is likely to be the state of your army then ? 30,000
British troops, perhaps one half that number French, some
thousands of your Canadian subjedb and Irish Roman cathp-^
Kc marines. Then, Sir, when America is conquered, and
the flower of your army cut off, your new allies wiU be pre-
pared to dispute the conquest with you. Is there a ihan, Sir,
m this Hoiise, that doubts but every Roman catholic of
cither army, or in that country, of any name, description, or
rituation, will not be ready again to assert the right of France
to the colonies of America, in opposition to the .protestant
army \ or that they will not be supported by the northern In-
dians^ who are bigots to the Roman catholic religion, and im^
mediately under the influence of the popish priests and jesirits
which abound in that country. Still, Sir, I am at a loss to
tell, whether I thould prefer an alliance with France of
Russia. It is time we should look to the enterprising ge-
nius rising in that empire •, to a people eager in the pursuit
of fresh possessions, in climes less inhospitable than those.they
now inhabit, already become (thanks to Great Britain for
it) the flrst maritime power in the north, the third great ma-
^time power in the world, extending her manufaftures and
commerce.
I fear the balance of trade is already against us ; but it must
inevitably be so soon \ and then you will send your specie to
Russia, to purchase the vast quantity of hemp, turpentine,
lar, and other naval stores, necessary to supply the present
great naval establishments. Sir, should Russia insist upon
sending these naval stores to your arsenals in America in her
mvn bottoms, dare you refuse it ? What may be matter of ne-
cessity now, was ignorance, or something worse, ten years
ago. Sir, it was for these reasons, I requested the honourable
member who moved the address, would adopt the motion,
•* previously to enquire into the real state of Great Britain
and her American colonies ;" that upon mature considera-:
tion we might present a dutiful and loyal address to his Ma-
jesty, fully as respectful to the King as the present : but pe ^■
hap^ less conjlusivc on the part of Parliament. Sir, those that
bought they plolged thejnselvcs lo uovVvitv^^ dvd well to give
A. ijTs* DEBATES. 2»s
it their assent. /, conscious I knew but little, and believing
I pledged myself to every thing, hope I did as well to vote
against it ; for I considered it to imply a thorough knowledge
of both countries; whereas it appears, by the language of admi-
nistration, that they are totally ignorant of the real state of ei-
ther. One noble Lord tells us, we cannot raise an army of
Britons sufficient to subdue the present rebellion in America ;
but must call in the aid of foreign troops, which we must pur-
chase with our wealth, in like manner with any other commo-
dity. Some gentlemen of great abilities and equal authority,
hold the dircft contrary do^fariiies, calling up to our recolleftion
tjie numerous army of British troops supplied in the late war^
From some of these benches we learn, that great part of Ame-
rica is still in our possession ; from others, that we have not
a foot of it. One minute it is asserted, the Americans are
still ready to submit \ the next, that they imite the men with
their measures, and execrate both. Some say they contend
only for taxation ; others for independence : with a variety
of different accounts, as to the numbers, situation, and op-
position of the provincial army. And the most matel'ial
question of the whole still remains undecided, whether thb
country (England I mean) is, or is not, desirous of pursuing
coercive measures against the Americans ? Sir, his Majesty
can certainly do no wrong 5 but are his ministers therefore
above reprehension ? And if the King has been deceived by
their misrepresentations, is it not more dutiful and loyal,
humbly to point them out, than to let the people ascrib^ a
share of blame to him, while they take shelter under the sa-r
cred name of Majesty. The King wishes for peace and recon-
ciliation with America, and I believe the noble Lo^d oppoisitc,
and a part of his associates, do so too, as well as the genera-,
lity of the people of England ; and that these blood-thirsty
measures can only be pleasing to such slaves to a part of go-
vernment, who the very last year told us, they shuddered at
the plan of operations, and would not support them, because
they thought them cruel *, yet now they can adopt them
because they are ten times more so j and to a set of unprin-
cipled, arbitrary, and avaricious men, who I wish to God
were transferred to a government like New Zealand (where
they devoiu: their fellow-creatures) from that of a civilized
nation.
Hon Mr. Fox observed, it had been said that the ad-
dresses would cause ill blood here, but that he would add
somethings more; they would cause much ill blood in Ame-
rica* The address from the Devonshire militia he reprobated^
^96 PAHLIAMENTART At 77$.
as one of the most onconstitixtionai aAs that ever had fWDeit
within his knowledge. After which he deabxrcd b^ did noT
think so meanly of 3ie understandings of the present minntry^
as to^supposc they would leave this country without an army
of some kind ; that he approved of a militia as a suetedaneun^
to an army, but that by the present bill they were evidently
to serve as a part of the army itself. He then entered into a
definition of the original meaning and intention of the Eng-^ ■
lish militia^ and laid it down as a doffa-ine^ that fom i aly aL
militia-mftn was merely armed and disciplined, that he mighty
, when danger was at his door and pressed upon him, AtSso/ir
himself. He said he should certainly be against the intrO*
duftion of foreign troops, and he was also agaiqst a standing
army ; that the purpose of the present bill was to create a
standing army, and to encrcase the power of the crown ; that
he saw no difference between a standing army of regulars^aad '
a standing army of militia, whom the King could call out
when he pleased ; for that in this country, aind every other
extensive dominion, there would alwap, in some part or'
other, be a riot, which the minister might call a reheIlion«
There might be a disturbance among the negroes in Jamaicaf
in* Bengal, or any other distant place, which might serve a^
a pretext for embodying the militia. That many gentlemen
would frequently be embarrassed who served in it, by being'
put upon disagreeable duty 5 and that at present, if he was a
militia officer, he would resign. He concluded with declar**
ing that administration were taking advantage of the present
situation of affairs, to put the people under martial law, and
to add that law to the prerogative. That all the late AmOT-
can afts tended to increase the power of the crown, and to
demolish the rights of the people ; and that as the present bill
evidently would do so, he should oppose it.
Lord North observed, that although there were so manjr
different opinions held, and so many different obje£Hons
thrown out in the present debate, that it was impos*
Sible for him to reply to all of them, yet he thought it
incumbent on him to speak to two matters which had
been urged by the gentlemen in opposition : one was, the
charge made against him respefting the Oxford address j
and the other, the idea which had been alledged to pre-
vail witli administration of introducing foreign troops intdr
fhis kingdom •, with regard to the latter, he declared thcr^
was no such idea entertained, and he appealed to the bill be-'
ibre the House as a confirmation of what he said ; for that it
t5 obviousj if ministry had sucix an mtexvxlwa xkcj ncvci*
A.t7'7r- DEBATE S. zif
would haTC introduced the bill, but moved for the introduc-
tion oiF foreign troops, on the j^ea of the Insufficiency of the
present militia aft. He declared he was himself averse to the
employment of foreign troops. But that where a great con-
^tutional point was to be carrie49 auid which^ could not be
carried without them, he saw nb objeftiori to their being
made use of; he thought they might be applied to as a rew
source, thdugh it woidd be Inq;K)litic to use them in the first
instance : diat sis we had more money tli^ men, it was a
natufal and a justifiable resource ifi cases of necessity ; but that
s(t present administration meant to leave the defence of ttns
country to the gendemen of it, which was sufdy the measure
moiit likely to |>rove agreeaUe to every Englishman ; and that
io fin* Was he m)m wij^ng to embarrass any gentlemen indie
militia, that he had no objeftioa to the insertion of a dause^'
giving them power to resign if they didiked the service. His
Lo^d^hip treated what had fallen from Mn Fox, respefting
die dangerous use that might he made, at any future period,
of the power granted by tins aft, as a chimera, never likely to
be realized; observing upon the hazard a minister wotdd run
in making a riot in the Indiei, or a disturbance in any distant
quiuter OT the King's dominions, a pretext for calling out tfad
militia of England ; and adding, that if any minister should
be so faafdy, he sktcerely hoped he would be impeached at the
bar of the House of Lords. With regard to the Oxford ad-
dress, his Lordship declared, that it came to him as a part o(
(he university,' as one of the firm of it^ in faft, it was sent as
a compliment to their chancellor ; that he did not aher the
langu^e ; that he both then and now thought it contained,
sucn sentiments as were proper to come from the university i
tibat it did not encourage the plunging this country into a civil
irar; that it only expressed a disgust at rebellion, and teemedt
with jfrofc^ons of loyalty which were an honour to those
frotfi whom it came ; and that therefore he did not prevent it
from being presented : but he solemnly protested that he saw
no other address iti its way to the throne, and he defied the
gchdcnden onthe other side of the House, after the most exaft
taquiry, to prove that administration interfered in procuring^
Lotd John Cavendish made a short reply; after which the
Rome divided upon the question. For reading tte bill 2591
:^gainst it 50.
Bill committed.
%S9 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^
November 3.
A petition of the merchants of London trading to the West.
Indies, was presented and read ; setting forth, uiat the inha*
bitants of the sugar colonies in the West Indies have hitherto
been supplied with very large quantities of flour, bread, ric^
and Indian corn, from the continent of America, from which
supply they are now cut off by reason of the present interrup*
tion of commerce with America «, and that the quantity o£
wheat and meal flour, bread, and biscuit, now allowed by
law to be exported to the said colonies from the port of Lon^
don, will t^e greatly insufficient for the sustenance and use of
the inhabitants of the sugar colonies during the continuation
of such interruption ; and therefore praying the House will
take the premises into consideration, and grant such relief as
to them shall seem meet.
Ordered to lie upon the table.
Sir James Lowtler moved, that the introducing the Hano*
verian troops into any part of the dominions belonging to the
crown of Great-Britain, without the consent, of, rarliament
first had and obtained, is contrary to law. He said, he would
not take up much of the time of the House in entering into the
great question of law which this resolution led to, that doubt^
less would be spoken to by more able gentlemen then himsel£
The measure appeared to him to be doubly improper, both as
being in direft opposition to the bill of rights, the aft of set-
tlement, and the established law of the land \ and also that it
is at present highly inexpedient in the present state of the dis-
pute with America. Why are we, said he, to have recomrse to
foreign mercenaries instead of our own troops ? Why place a
dependence upon those who cannot feel the same call for de-
fending the liberty of this country as the natives of it ? There
is no good reason for this ; and if we may judge from the
uniform tenor of administration in all their conduft, we
ought to consider it as a most dangerous weapon in the worst
hands which any weapon can be lodged in. But the nobla
Lord on the other side the House will tell us that he is the
able pilot that is to conduft us into port. I should be glad
to ask that able pilot what are the provisions he has made on
the continent of America for the employment of those nume«
rous forces to be voted ? Where are his transports and viftiial-
lers to go ? Where are his magazines to be formed ? What
security will he give us that they are not to roll about the At-
lantic by way of a harbour ? But one question ought to faw
elude a thousand others. Why have we not peace with a
people, who it is evident desire p^^ce m\.\x us» %ad who are
A. X775. DEBATES- 2S9
ready to submit to the legislative authority of this country ?
£He then read^ as a part of his speech, the last address of the
Congresy to the people of England.]
Governor Johmtone moved to read that part in his Majesty's
speech, which says, ^^ and I have, in testimohy of my afieiStioa
for my people, wno can have no cause in which I am not equally
interested, sent to the garrison of Gibraltar and Port Mahon, %
part of my selefted troops.** He then acquainted the House,
that he rose to second the motion of his honourable firiend.
Nothing, Mr. Speaker, requires such watchful attention
XQ this admirable system of government as the due poize
of the sword between the King and the people. His Ma<r
jcsty has the entire command of the troops after they are
raised or introduced into his dominions, that military ope<»
rations may be condufted with that secrecy, and dispatch^
which is necessary to give them their full eflfeft; but th^
people, on the other hand, must be first consulted on the
occasion of raising or introducing such troops, lest, under the
pretence of defending us against our enemies, an over-
whelming force may be turned against our dearest rights.
This rule I take to be a corner stone in the British constitu^-
tlon, which once removed, leaves every privilege we enjoy
at the mercy of the King. The words the clerk has just
read, I consider as the most wanton violation of this princi*-
ple, and the most avowed declaration, that it does not exist
in the law or spirit of our government. It is to meet such
dangerous do£fa:ines, and. to vindicate the wisdom of our
ancestors, who have not left the rights and privileges for
which they bled on so precarious a footing, that I now pre'<^
sume to trouble the House; nor docs the bill of indemnity^
laid on your table by the minister so early this day, slacken
my ardour on the occasion. In the preamble to this bill, which
I have just read, it is declared, ** that doubts have arisen"
on this great constitutional question ; I say then it is fit the
. legislature should determine those doubts* If so palpable %
daed remains in this government, let us boldly declare the
fadl, and correal it without delay. If (as I apprehend) it
is free from so glaring an absurdity, as that of supposing
' his Majesty can introduce any number of foreijgn troops into
his dominions without the consent of Parliament, let us, with
equal willingness, assert the right of the people throughout
his Majesty's dominions; and censure, or pardon, those who
have offended^ as their condufty whm duly considered, may
Vpi^IIf U d^erve.
290 PARLIAMENTARY - A. 177/.
deserve. But in iendemcss to them, do not let this gx^
assembly forget what we owe to our country : do not let us
forget what we owe to our own dignity as legislators by leav-
ing so great and essential a point undecided, merely in com-
pliimce with the fiiumours of some gentlemen, who w^ant to
balance between their former professions and their present
conduct.
It was happily observed by a noble earl, whose superior
wisdom was so long revered in this House, that you . might
intrench yourself with parchment up to the teeth, as defences
against the power of arms put into the hands of other men \
but the real Security consisted in never admitting of sucH
numbers as could effeft any evil purpose; for wherever such
power had been entrusted^ distinft from the guardians of li-
berty, the sword had always found a passage to the vitals of
the constitution. This principle ever direfted our peace
establishments, till the reign of his present Majesty. This
had governed the conduft of our ancestors till this hour.
This jealousy is evident in every clausp of the mutiny billi
whereby a military establishment is interwoven into our go-^
vernment. But in case his prudent generous jealousy * is
commendable against our own countrymen and felloW-citizens
when they became soldiers, they who have equal privileges to
lose and to defend ; they who have all the ties of frien^hip,
relationi and education, to restrain them from destroying th^
liberties of their country; how much more watchful and
attentive ought we to be, when this ' intoxicating power is
delivered up to foreign mercenaries, who have no obje£t but
the pleasure of a prince; who have been accustomed t6
consider the rights of a freeman as an insult on their profes-
sion ? Shall neither argument or experience stop this House
5n the madness of her American career. Must every prin-
ciple of our government be' dissolved in the contest ? ShaU the
first barriers of our freedom be levelled with the dust, to
favour our ministers in their absurd management ? Shall we -
despise the history of all those nations, from Carthage down-
wards, who have lost their liberty by employing foreign
troops, and recur to tho^e weak silly arguments which have
always been lised as the reason for first introducing theni. How
different is the spirit which prevails notr, to that which in-
spired our ancestors after the Revolution ? That the House
may judge on this point, I desire the message firom king
William, of the i8^th of March, i6gSi and the answer of
the Commons of England maybe read. [^Read the message
and
A. I775* O E B A T E S. .19^
wid an answer as under.*"] Here you find a King to whom the
very Parliament he addressed, owed the freedom of their
U 2 resolves,
. -—^
* Journals of the House, 1 8th March, 1698. i'-;
William R.* . V
His Majesty is pleased to let the House know that the ne*
cessary preparations are made for transporting the guards^ who:
came with him into England; and that he intends to send th^m:
away immediately, unless, out of consideration to him, the
House be disposed to find a way for continuing them longer iij:
His service, which his Majesty would take very kindly. '■ »
Upon which a question being proposed, th^t a day be ap-'
pointed to consider of his Majesty's said message, the question
was put, that that question be now put, and it passed in the
negative. -
20th of March, 1698.
The lord Norris reported from the committee, appointed on
Saturday last, to draw up an humble address, to be presented
to his Majesty ; that they ha[d drawn up an address accordingly,
which he read in his place, and afterwards delivered in at the
clerk's table, where the same was read, and is aa foUoweth :
Most gracious Sovereign,
We your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjedls, the com-*
ipons in this present Parliament assembled, do, with unfeigned
zeal to your Majesty's person and government, (which God long
preserve) most humbly represent.
That the passing the late aft for disbanding the army gave
great satisfaction to your subjefts; and the punftual execution
thereof will prevent all occasion of distrust or jealousy between
your Majesty and your people* '^
It is. Sir, to your loyal Commons, an unspeakable grief, that
any thing should be asked by your Majesty's message, to which
they cannot consent, without doi/fg violence to that constitution yowr
Majesty came over to restore andpr^ervey and did at that time, in
your gracious declaration promise, that all those foreign forces
which came over with you should be sent back. In duty, thcrd-
fore, to your Majesty, and to discharge the trust reposed in us,
we crave leave to lay before you, that nothing conduceth more
to the happiness and welfare of this kingdom than an entire co»».
fidence between your Majesty and your people; which 'can no
way be so firmly established, as by entrusting your sacred person
with your own subjefts, who have so eminently signalis5cd them*
^lyes on ^ occasions during th^ late long mul expensivi^warf '^
492 PARLIAMENTARY A.177J.
nsolves, fupplicating with a degree of eagerness, humilityf
and affe£lion, that might have melted a Roman fittfacr^ in
^^ehalf of troops, who had been active in his service } who
had been the companions of all his glory, and all his toiIs»
whose numbers could be no obje^ of jealousy ; bat those real
patriots knew the nature of courtly precedents, and they saw
the consequences of this. They refused the common formality
cf appointing a day to take his Majesty's message into con-
sidention; they waved those trifling respete, when the con-
■ stitution of th^ country was at sta^ke ; they instantly named
a committee to draw up an answer, and the House most
solemnly and truly declared, as you have heard, '< that they
could not consent to his Majesty's request, without doing
violence to that constitution his Majesty came over to pre-
serve." While I commend this glorious spirit in our rore-
ftthers, I hope there is no person who hears me,^ that can
believe it springs from any of those ignoble prejudices, which
sometimes prevail against the inhabitants of other countries.
Singly and individually, I believe a Frenchman as good as .
an Englishman, and a Spaniard equal to either, if they are.
-protc&jsd by a free government. All I maintain is, that their
misfortune having placed them under despotic governments,
they are more fit to destroy, and not so fit to preserve, thtf
privileges of freemen. That the happy predeli^Hon every man
feels for his native soil, is a principle established by God, and
ought to be striftly attended to by statesmen in the formation
of armies, and that no intelligent stateman ever despised this
natural afFe<Stion, or would wish to have recourse to fol-eigncrs
in the wanton degree the instance before us exhibits. It"
k said, we have pknty of money, but are scarce of men —
If money is so plenty, it were well to consider from whence
this superabundance comes, before we kill the hen that lays
. the gplden egg. It is strange, in one breath to declare our
|denty, and in the next to plead our poverty, as a reason for
altering our ancient system of colony government, to ^ct
money to support us ! As to the scarcity of men, I mam-
tain, if any country wants men for its necessary purposes,
there are some defefts in the system of government. Every
country imder a good government will breed up to the nmA-
ben wanted, and the means of subsistence. If population
falls off, there is some radical defe6l— I perceive some gentle-
men seem td laugh at this do<fbrine-^r laugh at their ignorance.
Will any man alledge there is no radical defeft in our gOr
vemmentf wherd, by impolitic impositions in your revenue
hws^ J 000 m^n aresamuall^ \o^t to ^J\^ Yvxi^wa^ «id 4000
A-^1775- DEBATES. 2^3
are tempted to work against its interest ; 3000 arc annually
lost in gaol, or as fugitives driven abroad by the severity ot
your laws respecting private debts ; 1000 by criminal puiibb*
ments j looo soldiers die annually out of the course of natUrty
by the manner of shifting our troops from station to station, td
pick up the diseases of all climates ; some millions are lost to
national defence, by the oppressive laws about religion hi
Ireland. Is it possible to consider these fafts, and assert theiti
is no defeft in the government under which theyhappett2
The introduftion of foreigners by bills of naturalization, ot
stretches of prerogative, to remedy such waste, call only
render the disease more incurable. Administration plaCe thid
war to account of the dignity of the nation ; for they ac-
knowledge no other profit, or advantage, can be reaped £rotn
it in the end. But is there any step that can reduce the tepu^
tation of this country so low, as that of dependiUj^ on the
electorate of Hanover for the interior government of its own
sttbjefts ? What a confession at the outset in this buskiess I
that Gr6at Britain is unequal to the contest ! How afe th«
mighty fallen since the peace of 1763 ? What a spedbde
for Europe! Can it be supposed that the force of the
empire is really so diminished, or must we impute it to
the injustice of the cause, and the madness of our i'ulers,
who, without exterior cause, have rent the empire asunder
in so deplorable a degree. So far I have reasoned on the
bad policy of this measure, supposing it had been pef-mitted
by the law of the constitution. I shall now consider it lipott
the spirit, and then upon the letter of the law.
The spirit of the constitution is fully declared by the bill of
rights, and annually by the mutiny bill. " That the raising, or
keeping up a standing artny, within thd kingdom, unless it bft
with the consent of Parliament, is against law." Is there any
man so narrowed in his ideas of governnlent, as to think, in
a sentence declaratory of the first essential principles of the
constitution, that the words within the kingdom, meant m^dy
the territory of England. The bill of rights is not an enft£t<^
ing law, but declaratory of the old rights of the subjeft by the
common law : in this case we must look for the principle that
governs, the rule-; wherever this jMrinciple extends, the law
applies. The principle is plain, that the King may never be
able to assemble any military forces for unjustifiable purpofies^
so as to overawe the Parliament to* enadt, or the people to
acquiesce in measures, which may be destructive of their
freedom. Let us try the construftion contended for by the
U 3 friends
ap4 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^/
friends of administration by this rule 2 to what purpose pro-
hibit the King from exercising this power in England, if he
can raise or introduce into Ireland or Guernsey, or the plan-
tations, whatever number of armed men he pleases? The
reasoning is so weak and absurd, that I am well informed, the
first law officer * of the kingdom has abandoned it in another
assembly, besides, if this do£fa-ine takes place, what security
have the people in the colonies for any of their privileges, if
his Majesty can order what number of forces he pleases into
the different colonies, without the consent of Parliament ?
How does this acccord with the doftrines of virtual represen-
tation ? If their members here have no vote in the most ma-
terial of all other concerns in a free state, the ponver of the
jw^rf— the feeble protedbion from withholding their pay and
subsistence is of little avail : the eleftor of Hanover may pay
them ; men in arms will ever find money for themselveSir •
Nor caa there be any reason alledged for resigning this power
to the crown : : foreigners never can be employed without
leaving sufficient time for calling the Parliament ; whenever
it is necessary to employ them, the occasion must be so mo-
mentous as to demand, the advice of the great counsel of the
nation. To alledge, as in the present case, that the members
of this House would rather submit that the crown should
possess the power of butchering half the inhabitants of the-
empire, than be disturbed in their diversion of killing a- par-
tridge, is the severest satire that could be pronounced upon
U9. It may be true of the majority. But in that case I ask,
if there can be so strong a proof of a declining empire ? I ask, '
if such dispositions prevail, if the people of America have •
not just grounds of jealousy against submitting the prote6tion
of their dearest rights to - such guardians ? I maintain there
was full and sufficient time, without retarding the measure,
to call the Parliament ; the transports, with the Hanoverians,
ivre not even yet sailed from Stade. The manner of mention-
ing the fadl in the King's speech, (more as a piece of news
than as a measure on which we could deliberate) sufficiently
shows that the prerogative of sending foreign troops to every
part of his Majesty's dominions beyond the kingdom of Great
Britain, is claimed by his Majesty's ministers ns an undoubted
power in the" crown : and though the bill of indemnity^ now
introduced, shews they are under much difficulty in. main-
The lord high chancellor.
taining
-A; 1775. DEBATES. 295
taining this doftrine by argument, yet every man of sense
must see this business is merely to amuse the country gentle-
men, that they might retire with decency on this day ; for I
. defy them, under all' the shifts of parliamentary doublings,
to negative* this motion, consistent with their former princi-
ples. Another objeftion to this measure occurs very strongly
to me. His Majesty has declared, that any treaty -which .
may be made for the employment of foreign assistance, shall
be laid before the House. Now I maintain, some treaty for
mutual contraft (which is here the same thing) must' have;
been made with the cledlor of Hanover, and registered in his
council for the employing those troops. They are corps as dis-
tinft from the troops of this country as the Russians. His Ma-
jesty, and the eleftor of Hanover, are, in their political capa-
city, as distinA as the empress and the king of Great Britain.
Does any one suppose, .so perfeft a despotism prevails in Ha-
nover, that the eleftor has ordered the troops of that state
without some fornal capitulation ? If there has been a capitu^
lation, we have a rij^t to see it. Th^ ministers have engaged
his Majest/s word, that evorylreaty for that purpose shall
be laid on the table, and m case it is withheld,* or denied,
they are responsible for the breach of so sacred a declaration*
But after sporting with the iroyal proclamation,* imder all the*
seals and solemnities of the state, inr the Quebec bill;; after
despising charters of government granted hy. his Majesty'ar?
p/edecessorsi and acquiesced under for hundreds of years, a»-
the proper executive form of binding the nation, I am not
surprised they mock and ridicule a speech to Parliament of
their own drawing.* » ' '
I come now to consider the letter of the law. The aft of
settlement 12 W. III. c. 2. enafts, *S that no person born
out of the kingdoms of England, Scotland, 6r Irelaud, or
the dominions thereto bekmging, (although he be natm^Kzed,
or made a denizen) except such as are bom of English parents,
shall be ca|>able to tftyoj^any office^ or place of trusty ctinl or
military,'* Now I ask, if possession of the fortress of Gibral-
tar, or Port Mahon, is not a great military trust ? I ask, if
the King could commit this trust to the officers of Spain, or
France ? I desire to know where the distinftion in point of
law is to be found, which renders, it more legal to commit
those great national bulwarks to Hanoverians than Spaniards.
The ministry, under the duke of Newcastle, by advice of the
late duke of Cumberland, had made the same mistake as. to
the prerogative of the crown in a capituJajtion they had made
U4 with
396 PARLIAMENTARY A. lyjg.
with colonel (now general) Prevost, for employing foreigner*-
in America, without the previous consent of Parliament*. 1
heard Mr. Pitt, in his place, tell the then tniniafers, if thejr
should dare to employ such troops, he should consider the aft
of settlement as broken, and that he would impeach the z6^
risers of such illegal measures ; this was at the commence*
H^ent of a war with France, yet no apprehension of danger
could induce that great man to yield any« constitiittional poind
to the expediency of the moment, which might eitiblish 4
precedent that might ruin his 'country. These ministers,
though in possession of full zs great a msyority as generally
follow the voice of the noble lord in my eye, were too wise
to persevere. They brought in the a^ ct the 29 Geo. II*
c 5. to enable his Majesty to grant commissions to foreign
Protestants in America, only with the several limitations in the
billy which every officer knows. If his Majesty had possessed
the power of employingforeign troops, where was the ne-
cessity of such a bill ? The ^tin£tion that is taken by thcr
noble lord in the war department^ is trifling to the last degree..
, He says the difference is obvious, because in the one case,^
they hold commissions from the King ; in the other, from the
ejeftor of Hanover. Are they less to be feared, because
they do not hold their comrmissions from the state ? Are they
not equally under the order of his Majesty, when they enter
1ms dominions ? The law does not say, they shall not hold
any commiscions, but any ciffice, or place of trusty civil dr
military. Our ancestors did not guard against the shadow,
and submit to the pressure of the substance. What further
confirms me in this opinion is, the words of the mutiny bill.
It declares, as a principle in the constitution, *' that no man
can be fcwejudged of life, or limb, or suflir any punishment^
but by the judgment of his peers." It makes the exception
as to the army, to be employed imder that bill. Gibraltar
and Minorca are expressly mentioned as places within the
piirvie^ of the aft. Every one is now convinced, from the
case of Fabiigas, after all the chicane to avoid the decision^
that subjcfts in Gibraltar, or Minorca, are equally liaWe to-
the proteftion of th^ common law, against oppressions, as in.
other parts of his Majesty's dominions. The mutiny aft de-
clares, as the only authority under which courts martial can
be held, " That his Majesty may grant his warrant to the
lord lieutenant of Ireland, or other chief governor or gover-
nors there, for the time being, or the governor or governors
cf Min6rca> Gibr^tor, and any of his M^csty's dominions
beyond
A* 1775- DEBATES 297
beyond the seas rcspeftively , of the person or persons there
commanding^ in chiefs his Majesty's forces, from time to
time> to appoint courts martial in the kingdom of Ireland^
and other pbce& and dominions respectively : in which courts
martial, all the offences ahove mentioned, and all other
offences herein after specified^ shall be tried and proceeded
against in suck manner, as by this a£k shall be hereafter dx*-
rt&ed.'* The subs^equent j^rt of the z/Et declares, *^ That
every mgrnhcTy assisting at such trial, before any proceedings
can be had ti^reqpon, shall swear, that he will administer
justice accorcfing to the rules and articles, for the better go-
vernment of his Majesty's forces, and according to the aft of
parliament, now in force, for the punishment of mutiny and
desertion, and other crimes therein mentioned." AH these
regulations, it is impossible tor any Hanoverian officer to
comply with* . Men who will not carry their ideas on the
spot ; who will not attend to the precision of cruninal .pro-
ceedings by the English law, which leaves nothing* to discre-
tion, find no difficulty in any thing y ** Do the best you can,**
solves every difficulty, and forms every instruftion from them.
But to men of more accurate dif cernment, I will ask a few
questions. Can any court martial be held in Minorca^ or
Gibraltar, without warrant from the governor ? Can his
warrant order any court martial, otherwise than as described
by the mutiny bill ? Can German officers, without know-
ing our language, swear they will administer justice according
to a law they do not understand ? In case the sentence is
death, who is to approve such sentence, or who is to sign the
warrant to execute r If it is alkdged, the Hanoverians carry
their own military law with them into our dominions, I shaU
put a case : suppose an, Hanoverian punished by Hanoverian
law in Minorca, should bring this aftion for dsunages against.
the governor, or in case of punishment by death, an indift-
ment is found, would such a plea, in justi^catfon that it wa»
done according to the laws of Hanover, be allowt^d? I maintain
that it would not. I assert, the moment any man enters into
the dominions of the crown ofBritaiu, he owes a local allegiance>
and is liable to the punishments and the protection (^ the laws
of this realm only, and that no foreign potentate hath, or can
exercise any jurisdiftion, ecclesiastical, civil, or military, within
the same. If these positions are true, I demand theny under what
law are th^ Hanoverians to be triwi ? If they can neither be ♦
tried by our martial law, or their own, I ask, 4n. what estate of
security are those garrisons left, when entrusted to men under
-, no
apS P A R L I A M EK T A R Y A, tyyj.
Yio regular martial discipline ? All these things prove not only
the necessity of the previous consent of parliament, before
foreign troops can be introduced into the King's dominiotos^
but the necessity of an aft of parliament to accOtmnodate the
law to their situation. Some men, from approving the mea^
sure, may think this opposition springs from Captious mtitivefrt
I think I have said enough, and quoted respe^ble aufhoritjr
sufficient to vindicate the movers from such reproach. Num-
bers in this House, conceiving themselves happy under Various
lucrative employments and bounties from the crbwn, do not
perceive the progressive steps the prerogative is nuking. Be-
sides the daily increase of influence by additional places and
pensions, when I consider the weight thrown ifito thlt pre-
ponderating scale by the royal marriage billj the vicJlent attempt
to raise money on the subjeft by proclamation, itithe case of
the f6Ur and a half per cent, winch was at last condemned lir
the courts of law, notwithstanding every obstiiiftion that
could be devised ; the great, inordinate, and iniquitous power
given to the- crown by a violation of all the rights of the
members of. the East-India company ; the further breaches
in the old form of government, by thelmusual powicrs yielded
to his Majesty by the Quebec aft, and Boston port bill 5 I
, say, when I consider these strides, since the short period of
,his Majesty's accession ; the great increase of our peace estab-
lishment in the fleet and army, I cannot help expressing the
, alarms I feel, that a despotic government is aftnally intended,
that the proceedings in America are only the forerunner of
what is preparing for ourselves at home, and that nothing can
insure the success of those schemes so effeftiially, as establish-
ing the principle which is now contended for, that the King
may overawe us with foreign troops ; if we are not disposed to
receive the chains that his ministers are forging for us.
Before I sit down, I beg leave to say a word or two, on the
subjeft of the diflerent addresses to the crown, which have
been so often 'mentioned in this House, and given to the-
public with such affefted parade in the Gazette,* even de-^
scending to the meanest Scotch Burgh, while petitions from
the first counties in England have been denied that honour j
making the Gazette, which should be . a paper of authentic
intelligence, a vehicle of false information, more shame-
l^s than that of Bruxells during the last war. First, it
Is asserted, to inflame the nation, that the provincials had ex-
ercised great cruelties, and had scalped our soldiers. This I
a$$cn to be a notorious falsehood j that one man who was killed
was
A..177S- D' E B: A T E S. 299
vxsis afterwards scalped at Concord, I believe to be true; but
the treatment given to the King's troops in general, who were
then made prisoners,, was . humane and generous. Another
false fadt,. asserted in; the Gazette, was, that Mr. gayer had
been taken upr for high treason. The story of a scheme to
. seize his . Majesty's, person, when going to the Parliament
House^ -was circulated with the utmost industry; but when
the: warrant was produced before a Judge, not remarkable for
leaning to the cause of liberty, it appeared the commitment
was for treasonable praBices\ and the whole story appeared fio
futile and ridiculous^ that this magistrate shewed his utmost*
contempt oAhe whole proceeding. Yet these trutbs never
reach the country : men f-ead of the cruelty of the Americans
abroad,, and the indignant treasc^^ of their abettors at home ;
^hat good subje£l, under such belief, would «iot offer his life
and fortune in defence of his Majesty's person ? If I could
have bdieved^ny design against his Majesty, I should have
been among the. Toiremost to offer, my life in his service.
Knowing the whole to be a wicked contrivance of the minis-
ters to deceive the King, and delude his people, my indigna-
tion turns against the contrivers of such shameful plots. What
can be said in. vindication of such proceedings ? Is the pro-
tection of the personal liberty of the subjedt no part of the
business of this House ? The president Montesquieu snys,
that the spirit of liberty sees with the eye of a jealous mother
the injury that is done to every individual ? What man is
safe under 'such machinations ? The ministerial paragraphs
in the news-papers, had. long teemed with accounts of in-
tercepted letters. . At length a contrivance is devised to
search the private papers of a suspedled individual. Will
th,e advisers. of those measures tell us, what they have now
found, or formerly possessed ? Will they produce some
of this intercepted* correspondence, that the world may judgp
between us ? Let us see upon what ground bail was denied to .
this oppressed -gentleman ? Why he was sent close prisoner to
the Tower ? Why his counsel was denied admittance ? If
there are no grounds for such cruel severity, mankind must
perceive the motive for propagating such falsities. The tide
of addressing may turn ; when the people see how grossly they
have been imposed on by false accounts, and false intelligence,
from every quarter ; when they iind that all true information.'
has been purposely denied at home and abroad. I say, when
'the people become sensible of those trdths, their vengeance
may recoil with redoubled fury. Richard Cron^weU^ 9^.
James
30O PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775-,
James the Second^ had their coffers filled with addraacs, dues
or four mcniths bcfijre they were d i spo w es Bcd of aB aadbority.
These should be examples what littk rdiaiic)t.caii be placed
on emptj words i The good sense of this c oiuitry is cfim
deceived at firsts but they generally return to the princqiies
of freedom at bttt« The Ameriran contert is com^iicatfd in
its nature ; it demands much information, and a process of
reasoning, on the great principles of society to undcrttand
the subject; every art is nsed to midead and misrcpre-
sent, by men reaping the harvest of our tronUes. ^Wlien
the nation shall Kt\ the great loss, and the ruinons ezpence
attendiiu; the measures of administration ; whoi America,
is lost, I am in no doubt, they will investigate the snbjeft
and call those to severe account, who are leading them hood-
winked in this will career, which cannot be jusdfied on an/
of those principles oF liberty, or sound pcdicy, by which the
£une of this country has been renowned among the nations
of the earthy by which it has hitherto invigorated every
part of its dominions throughout the globe; by which it
has raised, and by which alone it can maintain, this mighty
empire.
Mr. Waltir Stanhope ^ in support of the motion, recapitulated
what he called the errors and blunders of administration ;
aud prophesied the worst consequences if the affairs of this
country were permitted to remain much longer in the hands
of the present ministers.
Lord Barrington, Upon this question, I shall, from the
attention which I have given the subjeft, from being in office,
endeavour to shew the House wherein I think the present mo*
tion is against truth ; and that there is nothing iUezal in the
present case. The bill of rights declares, that to mtroduce
foreini troops within the kingdom in time of peace, and lirith-
out the consent of Parliament, is illegal ; and that declaration
I take to be founded upon the common law of the land ; but
I think it has, as the bill expresses it, reference only to the
kingdom itself, and not to the dependencies of it, of which our
history will give us the clearest proof. Go so far back as the
case of Calais 5 there was a garrison kept in that fortress re*«
gularly, without any consent of Parliament, or without its
ever coming before Parliament. Then there were Dunkirk
and Tangier, the garrisons of which were kept up without
having the least recourse to Parliament ; nor was it ever
dreamt of, that the sovereigns of this country were a^Hng '
iU^Uy in keeping up such garrisons. As to the expediency
of
A* 1775. DEBATES. 301
of the measure, it is justifiable, because the foreign troops arc
easier and readier to be had in due time, and at the same time
cheaper dian our own troops. I know from the experience of
last yearns recruiting, that it would have been difficult to
have procured new levies in that time. H!e declared the mea^
sure to be legal, and said he should pity and contemn the
minister who should ask for a bill of indemnity 5 for his part
he wanted none, though he had had a principal ihare in ad«
vising the measure.
Right honourable T. Townjbend. The dangers that mus^
arise from the introduction of foreign troops into the depen-
dencies of the realm, if not illegal, might be very great ; for
it might easily be in the power of an ill-designing prince to
fill all the exterior parts of the dominions with foreign mer-
cenaries, and take opportunities to make them the means of
overturning the constitution. No man should forget the na-
tural tendency of standing foreign troops 5 they cannot esteem
yburlaws; they know not your constitution ; they, cannot
respect it. Recoiled the case of the Hanoverian soldier at
Maidstone, where the commanding officer told the civil of-
ficer, ** Release the man, or I have eight thousand men hferc,
and I will beat down your goal, and take him by force." Sir,
that will be the language of commanders of foreign troops.
They know not the laws, they cannot respect them. Dis-
putes will arise in quarters, and they must be terminated in
this manner. But let us turn our eyes to the other countries
of Europej and see what miserable work the soldiery have
made. Sir, they have overturned Europe from its basis.
Xook at Sweden, where the king, merely by the means of
an army, has cut the throat of Swedish liberty, and rules by
the sword 4 and I might here observe, a-froposy that this ad-
ministration in England was accessary to the mischief, or at
least attempted to prevent a' reparation. I do not assert this
upon my own knowledge, but I have been told it on pretty
good authority, when the empress of Russia was about to stir
in favour of the old government of Sweden,* we interposed^
and threatened her with the fleet of England, if she made any
such attempt. He was zealous in vindication of the character
and reputation of king William the Third, whom he called
our immortal deliverer, which had been assassinated in print,
iand the work encouraged, [alluding to Dalrymple*s book.] '
Mr. Serjeant Adair y spoke in support of the motion, he
said, he should not enter at large into the subject of American
affairs, but confine hitnself strictly to the question before the
House. He first observed on the arguments that had been
304. P A R L I A ME M T A R t KtyjS'.
)Bwn martial law, he insisted thit no mftn cooklbe pat t9
death in the dcMninions of this country by any other authority
than the mutiny a&, or the law of the land. He put it to
the crown lawyers, to. say^ by what law disputes arisixig be»
tween the British troops, or inhabitants, and the Hanoveriansy
were to be decided.
. He contended, that the proposition contained in themotion,
was not only striftly warranted by the principles of law and the
constitution, but that it was highly necessary that tic House
should come to such a declaration, to avert the danger arising
firom the precedent; more especi^y after the approbation
expressed in their address. It had indeed been alledged, that
* the approbation went no further than the gracious motives
which had induced his Majesty to the measure in question.
That he had always looked upon this distin<EHon as illusory
and absurd ; but at all events the only way to demonstrate that
the approbation went only to the motives and not to the mea*
sure itself, was to come to the resolution now proposed to the
House.
' He concluded with saying, that he thought the expediency
of the measure would come more properly before the House,
when they proceeded on the bill of indemnity, which had been
Tead. That, however, the evidence of history ami the expe*
rience of all nations, evinced the extreme danger of calling
in the assistance of foreign troops ; and that the Saxons, who
had been called into this island to support the British govern-
nient, had themselves most efFedhialiy conquered and over-^
turned it. '
. But of all foreign troops, said he, the most dangeroiis arc
those who are the subje£ts of the King and not of the crown
and Parliament. Should any future prince of the illustrious
house that now sits upon the throne, perfeftly unlike his
present most gracious Majesty, assisted by ministers not very
unlike the advisers of this measure ; should, I say, such a
prince, deluded by such advisers, entertain the mad and ne^
farious design of overturning the constitution of this country ;
«>f destroying that liberty which was the glory and strength
of bis government, and reducing his kingdom to the same
abjeft state with those of the most of his neighbours, what
means could be so proper to effeftuate so wicked a purpose^
as filling all parts of our dominions beyond sea, witli foreign
mercenaries, and putting our strongest garrisons,^ and half
our empire, into the hands of officers and soldiers, the de-
voted ^ubje^Sls of the King, but totally independent on the
croirji or Pariiament of the kingdom ?
A. i77i;. DEBATES. 305
Mr. Stanley explained, that foreign soldiers serving inr
England were under the laws of England: and in respeS of
the expediency of the measure relative to the want of men, he
observed, that we had more men than the King of Prussia^
who kept 200,000 men on foot, and as many as the Hon^
of Austria j but as our men were employed in arts and manu-
faftures, it was more expedient to take foreign troops into
our pay, which had been the uniform praftice of the king-
dom, from the battle of Newcastle upon Tyne to this day;
bf which very many instances vrere to be met wiA in Rymcr
and Froisard.
Mr. Gordon asserted, that the measure was certainly illegal;
that a recruiting Serjeant "tould not inlist a single foreigner^
much less could you march five battalions to Gibrakar j but ,
condemned the motion for being an abstraft proposition, with-
out any connefted question, it might carry too severe a cen-
sure upon an aft, which he was convinced was wdl meantf
and very expedient \ he trusted, that its illegality might be
established by an alteration in the preamble of the bill of in^
demnity 5 and therefore moved the previous question.
The Solicitor General [Mr. Wedderbume] entered very fully
Upon the subjeft ; and stated f o the House the diiSFerent pe»
riods of time when, and the occasions fi)r which, foreign troops
had been introduced into this kingdom without the consent
of Pisffiiament; observing that there were so manv precedents^
for such a praftice, that he wondered any objeaions should
now be so seriously started against it. He therefore put his
tiegative upon it.
He embraced a great variety of circumstances and argu-
ments against the motion, and in fayour of the previous
question. Having established, in his own opinion, he said,
the legality of the measure, he went to the propriety of it,
and took occasion to remaric, that if the, militia laws vere
duly enforced, enlarged and extended, there would never
more be any occasion for them to debate on questions concerti-
ing foreign troops, as such would be totally unncessary.
Mr. Burke observed, that one honourable gentlanan was
against the motion, because it was not an abstraft proposition ;
another was against it, because it was an abstraft proposition.
He said, it was not kind of Mr. Gordoh to fight opposition
with a weapon which he knew they could not make use of.
He observed, that the honourable member knew the measure
was illegal, yet he would vote in favour of it. Now, says
Mr. Burke, if I, or any of: the gentletnen on this side of the
House, were to argne m this manner, it would cause a horse-
Vol.il X \»i^
jGi PARLI AMEMTARY A. 1775;,
used cwi the other side of the <iuestion, particularly by
Lord Barrington. He said, the noble Lprd had affirmedtjbat
there was no statute law which liniitcd the number of forces>
or the power of the crown in that respe^k^- before the Rcvoliir
tion V yet he admitted that Charles th^ .Secotul keeping a
standing army without consent of Parliamenty was con-
. trary to law 4 it must therefore be contrary to tiie ancient
prindples of the constitution, which the Serjeant contended,
equally applied to the present case.
With regard to the instances mentidned, of keeping troops
. in Calais, Dunkirk, and Tangier, without authority of Par-
liament, he said, that the ill-consequences of the two latter
instances, had already been sufficiently pointed out, ♦ and the
izoble Lord himself had, with great candor, given an answer
in the very next sentence, by observing that the same King
who kept troops in those two garrisons, kept them also in
England without consent of Parliament^ so that no inference
could be drawn as to the legality of the one more than of
the other, which the nqble Lord had admitted; to be illegaL
As to Calais, it was the last remnant of those extensive terri-^
torles formerly held in France, by our kings, who clain^ied
also the crown of that kingdom ; and no consfent of the Par-
liament of England could be necessary to enable th^ Iving tQ
keep troops in his French dominions. . ,. . ,.
He then argued from the principles of the constitiitioii,
ihat the King never had a power to keep up a standing, army
of mercenary soldiers, in any part of the dominions of the
crown of England, in time of peace, without authority of Par-
liament. Nor to introduce foreign troops a^ any time,
v/ithou): parliamentary consent. The ancient . anpies of th^
crown, were composed of those wiio served by virtue of their
, tenure^ for a limited time, and for particular services -, which
the King was. intitled to in common with other inferior lords
in right of property and tenure That from the abolition oiF
those militai'y tenures, the crown ^had no constitutional mir
iitary force wliatever, any whercj except what should be granted
by Parliament. That the bill of rights being declaratory of
the ancient 1'A\5^s and constitution, should be construed as
r->;tcnsivcly as the principles from whence it was derived 3 and
not narrowed or confined to the mere w^ords of the declara-
tion, which had a reference to the mischief recited in.th^
preamble, but should be applied to. all mischiefs that came
By i^^lisTownshcnd, . .,
A. 1775' DEBATES. 30J
within the same principles. That it had been held in ano-
ther h6iise> by the highest law authority in the kingdom ;*
that this clause of the bill of rights, by the spirit and fair
construction of it, applied to all the dominions of the crown.
That this construction was confirmed by the mutiny aft ;
which after reciting the very words of the bill of rights, goes
on to say, that it is necessary that a body of forces sl\ould be
kept up for the safety of the kingdom, and for the defence of the
possessions of the crown of Great Brit amy &c. From whence
he inferred, that it was the opinion of the legislature, that
forces could not be kept up for any of these purposes, with*
out consent of Parliament. That it was no answer, to say
that, in faft, the number jof troops mentioned in that aft,
are only those kept up in Great Britain, exclusive of those
employed in the garrisons abroad ; because estimates were
every year bid before Parliament, and supplies granted for thb
express purpose of supporting the troops kept in those garri-
sons, as well as in Great Britain, and therefore the one had
the consent of Parliajnent as well as the other. ,
He argued fiirther; that the employing foreign officers was
unlawful, from the aft of settlement, by which no person
born out of the dominions of Great Britain, though natu«
ralized, could enjoy any office or place of trust civil or military^
And that the command of a body of troops at Gibraltar or
Minorca, was certainly an office or place of military trust.
That this extended not only to the kingdom of Great Bri-
tain but to all its dominions, he said, was still further con**
firmed by the aft of 29 Geo. II. c. 5, by which the King
was enabled to grant military commissions to foreign pro-
testants in America, which would have been altogether unne«
cessary, if the King by his own authority could have employed
foreigners in any part of his dominions. And he pointed
out to the attention of the House the precautions taken in
that aft, by Hmitting the number of such foreign officers,,
obliging them to take the oaths, and declaring that the cqlo*
ncl should be a natural born sulojeft ; none of which were or
could be taken in the present instance of thp H^ioverian
troops, without the authority of Parliament.
Alter enlarging upon these topics, he stated to the House
the doubts and difficulties that must arise, by what law those
foreign troops should be governed, or their discipline main-*
tainod. For notwithstandmg all that had been said of their
own
* The Lord C\\^xic^\!l9t.
jod PARLIAMENTARY A. 177J,
, laugh in the House. This is not an argument dfortiori^ but
a m^jori: it is the argument of a majority. He said ibt
,4eanied gentleman [Mr. Wedderburne] had ransacked, histo^
ry, statutes and journals, and had tajcen a very large journey
! as was usual with him^ through which he did not wish to fol*
low him> but he was always glad to meet him at his retinrn
,liome.
Let us, says he, strip off all this learned foliage entirdy
from his argument \ let us unswatlie this £gyptian corpse^ and
strip it of its salt, gum and mummy, and see what sort of a
dry skeleton is underneath. — ^Nothing but a single point of
law.— -The gentleman, said he, asserts that nothing but a bill
can declare the consent of parliament, not an adc&ess, not . a
resolution of the House; yet he thinks a resolution of the
House would in this case be better than a bill of indemnity: so
that we find a bill is nothing, an address is nothing, a resolu-
tion is nothing, nay I fear our liberty is nothings and that, ere
!long, our rights, freedom, and spirit, nay the House itself^ will
Vanish, in a previous question. ,
Lord North desired to know whence the proofs and au-
thoi'itiefe of a point of law could be better drawn than from
history, statutes, and journals^ he did not think it was from
wit, flowers, and eloquence, that they should be deduced*
He said, he admired the hon. gentleman's n>ethod of proving
a resolution to be nothing; an address, nothing; a bill,
nothing ; and by the same mode of reasoning he was inclined,
he said, to conclude, that a long witty speech was, nothing.
. General Conway was very sorry to see such learned gentle-
men as Mr. Serjeant Adair and Mr. Solicitor General differ
so widely in their opinidns on so important a- point. He said^
that for his part he did not understand the laws to a pra^dc^
nicety; but his experience in that House had given him so
much knowledge of the constitution, that he felt the itieasure
illegal and dangerous* He said, he could not conceive with
what propriety a bill of indemnity could be proposed for a
measure that was legal ; the ideas of criminality and indem-^
nity were, he asserted, inseparable. He condemned the con-
dudl of those who advised his Majesty to bring foreigners into
this kingdom, without the previous consent of parliament j but ^
said he would vote for the previous question, because the mo*- ,
tion was too general, and passed a censure on a measure,
which, so far as his Majesty was concerned, he was sure pro*
ceeded from the best motives.
Sir William Lemon said he a()p*oyed of the American mea-^
sures i but such wasuUblii^ £s?kp^Qb^tvou oi that; paragraph
A.iyis. D E B A T'E S/ 367
in his Majesty's speech, which informed his Parliament, that
he had sent his Hanoverian troops to garrison Gibraltar and
Minorca, that he was compelled to withhold his approbation
of measures, which in every other instance he approved,
and consequently, on that account alone, voted against the
address.
The previous question being put, that the, main question
' be put, the House divided \ Ayes 81, Noes ^03.
Adjourned to November 6. <»
November 6 >
Mr. SawiriJge '&M, the bill for embodying the ittilitia be-
ing Committed for the gth, and that day being Lord Mayor^g
day in London, the city members wished, the bill might be
postponed. Agreed to, and the 13th appointed.
No debate.
November, 'J,
Hon. T. LuttrelL At this time, in the heat of a most im-
natural civil war, I hold it incumbent upon every member of
Parliament, inconsiderable as he may b<* in his private charac-
ter, not only to speafe: out with firmness and decision, but to
exert his utmost endeavour, to restore peace and commercial
prosperity to the mother country and her colonies.
The wisest writers on politics lay down for a rule, that those
fovernments are the most perfeft which are oftenest brought
ack to their first principles. Now, Sir, the history and per»-
feftion of the government of the British empire will eluci-
date the truth of such maxim; for there is not any other coun-
try on the face of the globe, in which the government has so
often been brought back to its first principle; and that ndt
by kings with their parliapients, but by e^tra formal a5:»:m-
blies of the people, in a convention or congress y which con-
veyed a purer and more positive sense of the community at
large, than the estates of the land, assembled according to or-
dinary forms, could possibly do ; and. Sir, in every contest,
during the last eight hundred years, between the people and
their trustees for executive power, the former have come off
i^^ith victory ; fully establishing this plain proposition, that all
partial institutions of policy, must, when the national wel-
fare is in question, be lost in the mo^e extensive laws of reai-
son and of nature ; with whatever levity or sallies of wit such
plea may lately have been treated by some gentlemen with-
in these walls. The happiness of mankind first diftated the
necessity and ends of government, as the intermediate power
between the individual and the people. AH government
was created by the people, who by their * original com-
^o6 P ARLIAMENTARr ' A.*7^.
foA tmOF^fcd to themselves a paramount rigkt^ to wbldbt tbef
Blight revert in cases of public dai^ger } to supply CMcntial
4e£scts, to reform abuses, and to take the most ^Se^xisi mea»
sores far the lasting peace and safeguard of society^ Tbef
gubje^ c£ the British empire^ in an especial mapneff daim
liberty and property, according to tkeir ancient laws dnd cus^
Unuy not as a charter-gxft or L»dulgence, but asi aa inherent
right never to be alienated, and at notime ttangSemdto thi^
monarch or proxy m Parliament.
I shall not trouble the House with a research mto the ni,^
ture . and efficacy of the British comtitution ; but there are
ipme rafb requisite to sustain the arguments in favour of tbe
modon I am going to make, wjbukh I must beg leave to caiS
np to your recoll e Oioo.
The popular form of government of the Saxons (it is wdt
known) was in very remote times transplanted itito this island
£:om Germany; their national conventions were continual^
and according to the Itmar periods. After the accessicMi of
Alfred the Gfes^ they were negixkted by the festivab of the?
diristiaii calmdar.
The lower we descend in history, die less regidar we find
these assemblies. Property encreased. Tiie bcSy of fireemen
became metre diffuse and numerous. What was every man's
business seeitied of trifling intei'est to the individual, axid many
concurring cauaies rendered their meetings little frequented^
till at length they seldom concerned themselves ¥rith tins duty,
linless some edidt or pjfecept, issued by the immediate executive
branch of government J should demand their judgment and
suffrages, to provide for the support of the state. But, Sir, the
poli^ry df courts gradually encroached, and at length brought
^he modelling of these assemblies to depend, in fa(t, upon the
royal will and pleasure i hence afos^ corruptions and into*
lerable grievances to the people ; but Whenever the disease
reached its full paroxism, they wisely esteemed the public good
as the supreme obje& of all civilized govefhrnents*, and when
sober counsek, iieiterated admonitions, and processes of sub-
ordinate judicature had failed, they, by virtue of that original
jKJwer, which I insist had at no time departed from them, did
appeal tQ the transcendent, jMimeval law of conscience and
common-sense; and when the a£b of ministers begun in opr
pr,ession, led on to a general calamity, they considered rfw-
ebedience to be the duty of every good citizen, and chearfiilly
bor« the burthen and sufferings of a civil war, father thaa
i>ecoipe slaves themselves^ and entail beggary and bondage on
irpo$terkj.
A. 1775- © E B A T E S. ^
1 shall now illustrate this dcxSrinej which I take to be the
fundamental basis erf our genuine Whig doftrine, by some
striking passages selefted from your annals; first, observing
that of thirty-three sovereigns of England, since William the
Conqueror, thirteen only have ascended the throne by divine
hereditary right j the rest owe their royalty to the zeal
jind vigour of the people in the iDamtenahce ot conetitutiona)
freedom.
The will of the people of Englwi4> supeirseding an h««di-
tary claim to succession, at the commencemtot of the twdfth
century, placed Henry the First on the throne of this kings-
dom, with condition that he' would abrogate the vigorote
laws made since the Norman invasion j restore the goyernmcK^
as in the days of Edward the Confessor, and abolish aU tUijttst
and arbitrary taxes.
King Stephen obtained the crown, and Hehjy the Second
Ifept it, on the same express terms ; yet. Sir, ih the days of
King John, it was judged expedient no Ibnger to trust dfr
uxerc oral declarations, which state chicane and sophistry had
of late years occasionally explained away, but to compel that
prince solen^inly^ to register an affirmance of the antient rightf
of the people m a formal charter; and this necessary work
was accomplished by the congress at Runemede, in the year
1115 : an assembly which ought never to be spioken of by
the representatives pf th^ Qon^mons of England bet with pro* ^
found veneration.
An honourable and lea^med member over the way mention-
ed, a few evenings ago, the introdudHpn of foreign troops intq
this island in the reign of Henry the Tliird, as a precedent tx}
warrant the present stretch of regal prerogative in the case of'
the Hanoverian mercenaries : ^s that member is not now in
the House, I shall be more concise in treating of the qjrents
he alluded to, than I otherwise intended. Sir, in ^hc reign ct
Henry the Third (about the year 1233) ^^^ barons, clergy and
freeholders, refused two distinft summonses to Parliament ;
and understanding that the King as Earl of Poiftou, had
ianded some of his continental troops in the western ports of
England, with a design to strengthen a most odious and ar-
bitrary set of ministers, they assembled in a convention or con-
gressy from whence they dispatched deputies to King Heniy,
declaring that if he did not immediately send back those Poicr
touvians, and remove from his person and counsels evil ad-
visers, they would place oti the throne a prince who should
better observe the laws of the land. Sir, the King not only
hc;>rkened to that congress, but shortly after complied with
X 3 ' cverx
3ip PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775/-
every article of their demands, and publicly notified his re-
formation. Now, Sir, what are; we to call that assembly
which dethroned Edward the Second, when the Archbishop
of Canterbury preached a sermon on this text, The voice of the .
people is the voice of God, And when alearned judge, in- the
charafter of procurator for the mass of the freemen, surren-
dered the homage and fealty of the people of England, ^Uedg- .
ingthat the original compaft, through which they were bound
to ^egiance, was disserved, by the use and aggrandisement
of ill counsellors j by the administration of government,
which agreed not with the ancient laws of the land, and by
a total disregard to the advice and supplications of his Majesty's
faithfiil but afiUAed subje^b. ' Richard the Second (like the
unh^py Edward) fell a viftim to despotic obstinacy and fa-*
•voriti^mj and to this King, in the same manner, was sur-
rendered by commissioners (or prpftors) the allegiance of his
subjefts, and a prince of the house of Lancaster (founder of
our present most gracious sovereign's royal line) was invited
over from banishment, and elefted by the people to the throne.
But, (Sir, before I dismiss this reign, it may be proper to ob-
jsenre that Richard entirely subverted the constitution of the
Upper House of Parliament, for he made it an appendage to
the crown, introducing peers by creation, in prejudice to the
territorial baronies \ and wjth respeft to the other House, he
sent orders to the sheriffs of the several counties throughout
England, to return only such representatives to Parliament
as should on every occasion implicitly obey the royal mandate.
Nay, Sir, both Houses conjointly went at last so far as to com-
. mit their whole parliamentary power into the hands of a ca-
binet junto of ministers, having, however, first obtained the
' Pope's leave for so doing. I wish gentlemen who contend for
supreme sovereignty in the crown and parliament, deny-
ing any righjis of the people in pre-eminence to their joint
a^uthority, would apply such argument to the state of King,
I^ords and Commons, at that aera. I shall next proceed to
the general convention or congress, which in 1461 enthroned
the Earl of March in Westminster-hall, by the name of Ed-
\fard IV; the Primate of all England collefting the suf-
frages of the people ; and at that period even the Lancastrian
historians date the commencement of his reign.
But to cqn^e to modern occurrences : in 1659 a convention
or congrei^ restored legal monarchy in. the person of King
Charles l^he Second, who was then no farther distant from
this island than the town of Breda, and being pressed by
many
KijTSf DEBATES; 311-
many of the royal partisans to issue his wi'its for a lawful
Parliament ; he made answeri that he would rather be in*
debted for hia restoration to the uninfluenced sense of the
people of England, taken in a free assembly.
. On the 26th of December, i688, was held a convention or
congress at St. James's, where the Prince of Orange presided ;
and there were present most of the surviving members who
had served in any one of th? Parliaments of king Charles the •
Second, the Lord Mayor of London, the aldermen, and about
fifty of the common-council, &c. and on the 2 2d of January,
following, by virtue of notices issued on the aforesaid 26th of
December of St. James's, the memorable convention-parlia-
n^ent assembled in this House, and perfeAed the glorious
work of the Revolution.
I mean. Sir, from these examples and arguments, to de-
duce for an incontrovertible truth, that all the subjedls of -
the British empire have a right to be governed according to
the spirit of our ancient constitution, by which no freeman
could be taxed without his consent, either in person or by
his substitute; and notwithstanding the infringement of this
right under some of our Norman kings and their successors,
yet we find William the Conqueror himself confirming it,
in his code of laws, the year before his decease. And the same
explicit declaration in its favour from oiu* English Justinian,
King Edward the First, in the charter of the 25 th and sta-
tutes of the 34th of his reign, admitted to be among the
earliest authentic records of Parliament extant, according to
the present mode of summons.
I have, I think, shewn that our kings in former days have
not scrupkd to treat with a congress ; that m^ny of the best
of them owe their crowns to jsuch national meetings ; and
that this nation , has, on the one hand^ been saved ffom des*.
pot ism, and, on the other hand, from anarchy, by a convention
or congress; which surely possesses some advantages over a
parliament ; for being free from ministerial «ianagement^
hiving neither placemen, pensioners, nor dependent retainers'-
on their list, are more likely to hear the sincere diflafces of
conscience, and tlie unpolluted sense of thojse they represent, •
But, Sir, however inadmissible the voice of a congress might
be deemed as z£ts of legislation^ yet I conceive that their
plea in the charadler of advocates for the constituent body by
whom they are commissioned, ought in justice, as well as
sound policy, to be listened to. A puncSlilious delicacy now
in fashion, which we stile the dignity of the crown and Par-
liament, Will, if madly persisted in, cost at least half the
X 4 "^^^^
3U PARLIAMENTARY A.i775.^
blood and substance of Great Britain. The most haughty
dnd povrerfiil monarch of his time, Lewis the Fourteenth)
when there was a formidable commotion in the Cevennesj con*
descended to depute two marshals of France to enter into a
treaty with the malecontents : peace was accordingly liiade
and the terms of it were afterwards faithfully fulfill^.
Look, Sir, into the history of the proudest as well as most
rcnowrted people that ever existed, the Romans 5 observe the
conclusion of their social war, and you will «ee they were not
above negociating a peace with those very insurgents whom
they had before, individually by name, {nroscribed as rebels. *
Rome found herself at that day reduced to the same critical .
predicament which, I apprehend, we now stand in ; there,
was no other possible means of restoring concord, or Saving
the commonwealth firom ruin : but, Sir, above all, I would
wish the House to give, on this occasion, due weight to a
conclusive remark of the excellent author of the Commen-
taries on the Laws of England, where he is descanting on the
revolution of 1688, which placed the sceptre in the hands of -
King William, and eventually brought in the illustrious
• bouse of Hanover to be guardians of the protestant religion^
and assertors of the ancient constitutional rights of all the sub-
jcfts throughout the British monarchy. " No practical sys^
terns of law, say he, are so perfeA as to point out before
hand those eccentric remedies which national emergency will
diftate and will justify."
I now, Sir, beg leave to offer to the House the following
motion.
** That a committee be . appointed to draw up an address
to his Majesty, humbly requesting that he will authorize
the commissioners nominated to aft in America, (for the
gracious purposes expressed in his Majesty's speech from the
throne) to receive proposals for conciliation from any ge-
neral convention, congress, or other colleftive body, that shall
be found to convey the sentiments of one or more of the' se-
veral continental colonies, suspending all enquiry into the
legal or illegal forms under which such colony or colonies^
may be disposed to treat ; as the most effeftual means to pre-
vent the effusion of blood, and tp reconcile the honour and
permanent interest of Grelt, Britain With the requisitions of
his Majesty's American subjefts.
The motion was seconded by Captain Wolscly^ who. said
he had served some years o^i ^he coast of Ameriica, and had
at this time the best intelligence possible from that part of the
world,-
A.I77S- DEBATES. 31J
world, and was sure a peace could never be tSbEtci bnC
through the general congress.
Mr. Rice said, that not having been in the House While the
honourable gentleman spoke in support of his motion, he
should not reply to his speech j but only observe, that no man
in the House could be more desirous of peace with Americt
than himself 5 but would not treat with the congress, because
it would be admitting that to be a legal assembly, which must
of course determine the question at once in favour of Ame*
rica* If that meeting was legal, all oiur condu)6b was injus-
tice. Thought it more becoming the dignity of Parliment
to find some other way; to wait a little; could but. take
this at last.
Mr. J. JSbnstone for the motion, as the only means of treaN
ing with America.
Sir George Tonge also for the motion.
Sir George Suttie called upon the ministers to inform the
House whether they had any plan, or to inform the Houte
what they intended to do*
No answer.
The motion passed in the negative.
Novernher 8.
The House in a committee of supply. Lord Barringhn
stated the army estimate for the service of the year 17 76. .
He said that the whole of the force intended to be raised and
maintained was 55,000 inen, the ordinary expence of which
would be 1,300,0001. and a fradlion ;' that the expence of
last year was something above i,ooo,oool. consequently thjit
the increase would be 300,000!. He then enui[nerated the
different services, and shewed that except the force intended
to serve in America and Great Britain, the troops stationed
elsewhere would be nearly the same. In the latter there
were at present seven battalions, and ten returning from Mi-
norca, Gibraltar, and America, which would make seven-
teen in the whole, four of which would return with officers
only; of these four the* 1 8th and 59th regiments, which had
suffered most, would be two. He next informed the com-
mittee that the garrisons of Gibraltar and. Minorca would be
garrisoned by fivd battalions of Hanoverians, consisting of
475 men each, and four of English; the two serving at Gi-
braltar to consist of 477 men each, the usual establishment ;
and the two at Minorca of 677 men each ; so that by this in-
crease of men, which was cffe6led chiefly by the invalids
which were sent from hence, another battalion could be spar-
ed from Minorca. He observed, tliat in the West Indies
3f4 PARLIAMENTARY A, 1775.^
there would be one battalion less ; for instead of five there
would be but four battalions, which was meant to be com-
posed of his Majesty's royal American rfegiment> to be com-
manded by General Prevost. He said that /the force to'
be employed for guards, garrisons, and invalids withm
Great Britain would be twenty thousand men, and those
m America, including the force in the West Indies, Gibral-
tar, Minorca, and the coast of Africa, thirty-four thousand^ "
and that the aAual force in America alone would be 34 batta-
lions, at 8 1 1 men to a battalion, including two regiments of
light horse, due sent some time since from Ireland, and Bur*
goyne's, mtended for that service, which would in the whole '
amiDunt to upwards of 25,000 men. This, he said, was the
army intended to carry on the operations in America, part of
which was borrowed from Ireland, and must accordingly be'
paid by Great Britain, He said, this was the general out-
line of his arrangements on paper, but he was sorry to say it
was but on paper, for none of the corps but those in Gibral-'
tar and Minorca were completed to their full complement/
particularly those in, or going to America, besides the four
regiments returning from that country to Great Britain ;
which were to return with officers only. That this was a
matter, in the present situation of things, much to be la-
mented, yet nothing was left untried in order to remedy it,*
hitherto to very little purpose, for the recruiting service pro-'
ceeded but slowly ; that attempts were made to enlist Irish
Catholicks, which is what he would not have advised, had
it not been for the extreme necessity, though he did not look
upon the measure to be contrary to law. Foreigners were
tried as single men, to be incorporated in British regiments,
neither did that answer 5 the bounty was raised and the stand-
ard lowered, still the men could not be obtained. Such being
the true state of the case, he would, he said, take the li-
berty to obviate a popular objeftion that would probably be
made to the present plan of hostile operations against America
Kpon this very ground, that recruits could not be had, be*
cause the service they were to be employed in was odious to
the people in general. But his Lordship insisted that was not
the true cause, for it might be traced, and found in several
concurrent causes ; nor could there be a stronger instance on
which to found his reasonings than that at the time of the
armaments by sea and land, relative to Falkland's Island, the
same difficulty of obtaining recruits was felt, and no person
would say, that a war designed to be carried on against France
and Spain is not a popular war^ Those causes were in the
^^^IS^ DEBATES. 315^
first place to be attributed, he said, to the great influx of real /
or nominal wealth of late years ; to the consequent and na-
tural luxury of the times j to the encreased emplpyment this
furnished to the lower orders of the people j to the very flou-
rishing state of our manufaftures and commerce } buf above
all to the true and natural cause, a want of men. This want
of men he imputed to the following reason : he said, at the
breaking out of the late war our military force every where
did not exceed, (including those in the East Indies) above
40,000 men ; whereas our last peace establishmept consisted
of 31,000 paid by Great Britain, 15,000 by Ireland, 10,000
in the East Indies, 4000 marines, which in former times were
ijever a permanent corps, and 27,000 militia, which last de-
scription of men were' as much cut off from the recruiting
service, as if they had been aftually enlisted ; summing up
then those respeftive numbers, they formed the monstrous,
amount of 89,000 or about an increase of 49,000, most
of whom, on an emergency like the present, cpuld have
been called into adhial service. He said, he understood
that the idea of taxing America was entirely given up ;
that being the case, the next consideration, nay, indeed the
only one, was how to secure the constitutional dependency of
that country. This, in his opinion, was not to be effefled
without Great Britain declaring a resolution to maintain her
constitutional rights, and putting herself into a situation to en-
force them, should America continue to\esist or refuse obedi-
ence to her just rights. This, though he did not pretend to
speak from authority, was the general plan adopted by admi-
nistration, first to arm, and theh send out commissioners ;
atid he said, that he had heard that a very great military of-
ficer, high in the esteem of his Sovereign and the nation, and
who is perfedlly well acquainted with America, was the person
intended to be sent out as first commissioner. In the course
of the detail, his Lordship observed, that of the last five re-
giments which left Ireland, two of them had been driven by
stress of weather into Milford Haven, but as soon as the
transports were refitted, they would proceed with those troops
to the place of their destination.
His Lordship moved, that 20,752 men be employed for
land service, for the year 1776, and that 659,200!. 2s. io|d.
be allowed for maintaining them for 365 days, from the 25th
of December 1775, to ^^^ ^5*^ ^^ December 1776.
That 723,4321. IIS. 7 id. be granted for maintaining the
iForces in the plantations and Africa^ for the year 1776.
That
3ttf^ PAftLIAMKNTARY A. 1775.
That 42,^3 ol« ^9^* 4^. be granted for the charge of paying^-
gSid the differexKe of pay between the British and Iri$h esta&
lishmcnt for the troops of that country now serving in Ame^
rica.
That 11,5031. 7s. 3d. be granted for the pay of general*
and staff officers for the service of the current year.
That 104,1361. 6s. be granted for levy money, for th«r
augmentation of the British and Irish forces for 1776.*
That 15,0721. I2S. out of savings of grants of last ses-
sions for th^ charge of an augmentation to the forces, and for
tevy money for the augmentation to Major General Preston's
regiment of light dn^oons towards defraying the charge of
levy money for the augmentation of the British and Irish-
forces for the year 1776.
That 26,7831. 15^. 2|d. be granted for defraying the
charge of five Hanoverian battalions of foot at Gibraltar and
Minorca, from the ist of December 1775, *^ ^be 24th of
December following.
That 46,8381. IS. pd. be granted for defraying the
charge of five Hanoverian battalions, serving as above, £&t
the service of the year 1776.
That 249,6551. 1 8s. 6d. be granted for the oflice of ord*
aance, fcmd service, for the year 1776. And,
That 223,1711. IIS. I id. be granted for defraying the
expence of services performed by the office of ordnance for
lai^d service and not provided for by Parliaipent in 1775.
Colonel Barri made some remarks on the noble Lord's es-
timate 'f and particularly on some of his reasonings and de-
dii£Hons. He observed, that his Lordship stated the establish-
ment of the English battalions, at Gibraltar, at 477 men ;
those at Minorca, at 677 5 the Hanoverians serving at both
places, at 475 men each ; and those in America, at 81 1 men :
why not at 677 at Gibraltar and Minorca both ? Why not
the Hanoverians at the same number ? And why not those
in America at 850 men, which was the usual number during
the late war, with the same number of officers ? He objefted
against the additional companies proposed by the noble
J^rd, and insisted in the present state of the army, they w;ere
so much additional expence, without the least use. He said,
he should not range the wide field the noble Lord travelled
over, but to whatever motives he attributed the present dis-
* This resolution was amended on the report, and the
sums made 89,063!. 14s.
turbances
A- i^*j$. D E B A T E «. 3it
turbanccs in America, lie was satisfied, that the great source
Was the ruinous consequences of patronage. Several great
interests and ci^oexipns were to be gratfeed, and a hea^
Eice establishment" was formed to get rid of the army at
mc ; it ¥ras seat to America, where it was not wanted, th<t
veiglxt of maint^ning it was soon fcU, and that rfKMrtljrjgave
fcirth to the absurd idea of making America pay for it. Tliii^
he insisted, wa$ the genuine fountain from which the disputep
•ifigii^Lally flowed, mi would ever continue to flow, tiU the
cause was remoyed. He observed^ that the account was bib-
Iscious, as tjie estimate now on the taUe would amouc^ tt
foil tiro mtillions ; one third of which, he ventured to con*
tend, mig]iLt be saved, if the battalions were made cozcmleati
that is, if in proportion- there were a fewer numb^ or ogffir
cers, and more men. He next turned to the ordnance and
levy money, the former of which, he said, exceeded some of
the: years of tie late war, in which our arms were trium^
phant iijL every quarter of the globe. He laofiented dbe litde
infonnadon there was ever to be obtained from that board i
fer several of the greatest ministers and ablest men in th»
country, to his knowledge, had made the attempt, but in rsM^
every thing in that department being in darkness and obsictt*
rity. The expence of the ordnance service for this year wap
isboyff 470,000!. and no man could tell to what the accouttt
might be sweUe'd. On the whole, he contended, that die es-
timates were much short of the real expence, and insisled th^
nothing but the most urgent necessity, and the fullest infor*
iBationto justify that necessity, coul4 ^i^n^^nt the representa^
^ves of the pe<:q|>le to load themselves and their constituents
^ vith such heavy burthens. It had been all imposition from
* b^inning to end« or some persons imagined they had an iur
terest in pretending to be deceived. He quoted one instance
eut of a hundred in his memory, the rank ignorance of send-
ing troops to Canada in the moiUihof OAober. [Here he was
proceeding to relate some matter, when the gentlemen on the
tseasury b^xch began to ^nile.] He said, be despised the
spleen whidi created the siUy observs^ons on his stcny telling i
k was beneath his contend almost to take notice of them*
' floweverhe was astonished tiiat administration could fall into
so gross an error *, for though the pride of the navy was on
dus side the House, they haai one officer [Palltser] to direft
diem^ if they h^d thought proper to consult him ; but to
tc£6ff this errar, the ndl>le Lord says, that diey are to pur-^
sue^eir yftofm^ as ^nasthett!a&sports.are.readyto prasmi
3x8 PARLIAMENTARY A.i77f
Mr. Powys said he had hitherto voted with the minister on
American afiairs in general, particularly for the militia Jtod
augmentation of the navy ; but that when he did so, he un-
derstood, and several other gentlemen understood the sam^
that before all the supplies were voted, the miniver would
lay before the House his plan. From the bcfginning, he said,
lie understood the minister so intended: if he had not thou^it
so he would not have given his support to measures of whidi
he was not to be acquainted. But, now not seeing in thft
noble Lord any disposition to give the information and satis^
fadtion he desired; and had promised himsdf he was to re-
ceive, he supposed it was meant to vote the estimates first
and hear the reasons afterwards, that is, that the Hotise
should begin with a division and end with a debate. He
therefore moved that the chairman do now leave the chair.
This motion was seconded by Sir Robert Smytb^ who
not considering it as a motion hostile to administrations
with whom he had uniformly aAed in this business, nor in
any ways tending to retard those military preparations whidi
he deemed so necessary to be made at this crisis ; not
wishing to relax the nerves of government, when, in his
opinion, they ought to be stretched to their utmost tone, but
considering it as a motion proper to produce that pause to
our proceedings until due information shall be brought be-
fore us ; when he mentions information he does not mean
a few scraps of garbled and mutilated papers, but that, verbal
official information which he thought it the minister's duty
to impart to Parliament ; perhaps the noble Lord will say,
that this is one of those arcana of state which properly be-
longs to the cabinet, and which it would be imprudent to
impart to a numerous popular assembly ; he allowed the ob- '
je6Hon to have some weight if the dispute lay between sove-
reign powers of equal authority, where the complicated in-
terests of other states might be in some measure involved,
but where the question lay between fellow subjefts equally
interested in terminating it, he did not see the necessity of so .
much mystery and secrecy ; it might be highly improper in
him to ask, as well as impolitic in them to discover, the de-t
tail of their plan, but, he only wanted to know whether they
had any plan at all.
With respeft to commissioners intended to be sent to Ame-
rica, he thought, that not only the persons, but the nature
and extent of the commission, should be made known, that
Parliament might judge whether they were men proper to be
intn»ted.
A. 177$- t) E B A T E S. 319
iAtrusted with so important a negociation, and whether the
terms they carried out were consistent with the dignity of
Great Britain to ofier, and the interest of the Americans to
receive ; he had heard certain governors mentioned, but could
not help thinking them very improper men; he did not
mean to cast any reflections upon a governor^ a very worthy
member of this Hoi^se^ who^ from his thorough knowledge
of American afiairs, is very well qualified for such an im^
portant trust ; but governors, as such, were obnoxious men
to the Americans ; he did not mean in an extensive sense
arisi]:\g from their attachment and partiality to a popular go-
vernment ; but, that for many years past, there have boea
continual struggles between the governors and the assemblies,
.which have been hastily called, and as abruptly dissolved |
and the people ever consider go;vernQrs, from the nature of
their appointment, more interested in asserting the preroga-
tives of the crown, than in maintaining the libertieifc <rf die
people ; besides, they are fully persuaded^ that most of their
^misfortunes have arisen from the misrepresentations of go-
.vcrnors on this side the water. However the noble Lor4
may affedt to treat this proposition of his honourable friend^
he only begged leave to observe that this was not the rash
and hasty opinion of an inconsiderate individual, but the
deliberate wishes and desires of many gentlemen of a mo/st
respedlable description within the House, who expeA to be
called upon in a short time, almost personally, to contribute
a large supply towards carrying on these measures.
Lord Noi*th did not give a direfl: answer, though he ad-
mitted the propriety of the gentleman's reasonings who spoke
last. He said a commission would be sent according to the
intimation giveh at the opening of the session from the thronfe;
that the gentleman need not be uneasy that any treaty oiF
concession would be agreed to without the approbation of
parliament ; but it wowd be necessary to know upon what
ground the Americans would treat before the powers suffi-
cient to ratify what tlue commissioners might think expedient
were derived from Parliament. When the terms that Ame-
rica is willing to isubmit to were in a state proper to be laid
before that House, that, in his opinion, would be the pro-
per time to take the sense of Parliament, on previous commu-
nications, and leave it to judge of the alternative, whether
the offers of America could be accepted with honour, or
whether Britain ought to reduce them to a state of obediencei
however hazardous the undertakijig.
Ri^ht
^o P A*L1 AMENTA RT A. 1775^
Right Hon. T. ToHonshend said, the noble lord [Lord fiaiv
Inngton} had given him a strong lesson against great estaUisb-
•tents, when his Lordship said, that the keeping up 89^)00
■aen in peace had crippled us. But, said Mr. Townshtod,
there is a great difference betwerai the present division of -the
tmpire and a war with its natural enemies ; those enemies
«re quiet, but are ready to attack us on, a sudden whenever
^bey see an opportunity.
Mr. Innes. The present state of our American affairs fbwt
from natural causes* "Hie prosperity of a people depends on
% form of government suited to their situations and drcuniF' .
•tanceJB ; that which was calculated for the infant state of our
colonies^ is evidently defective now that they are grown great
suad p<^x:^ovs. In every civilized nation in the known worldf
at this period 'of time, whether monarchy or. republic, you wiH
BQt find the sub^e^te governed merely fay the k>vd and affec-
tion which they besu* to their rulers. A well r^idated govern*,
ment maintains its authority by a proper force, to restraia
and corredt the bad humours of discontented individuals. Is
it possible in the nature q£ things, that amongst a numerous
race cS people, all of them can be sober and sensible ? In
every large society, there is. a restless and turbulent set of
men, fond ef power, and envious of those in rank and station
above them. Have you hitherto kept a force sufficient to
maintain the authority of this country, over even a few in»
dividuals in North America ? No, Sir, you have not. Yo«
laid on the stamp aft, without power to enforce it : you were
so weak to repead it, without giving time to try what effeft it
might have in the ordinary course of things j owing to your
own unsteady and factious pursuits at home.
What has been the real cause of discontent in America ? It
has arisen chiefly from a thu^ after independency, and from
the great encouragement which the colonists found on this side
the water. A seditious spirit soon spreads its contagion ; ahd,
in the present case, has grown to an enormous height. 1$
this to be wondered at, when you ccmsider, that both here
and in America, there are to be found men of abandoned
principle, ready to engage in any outrage? The more sen-
sible, who are disposed to peace, will not interfere in proper
time, thinking it is the business of government, under whose
. prote6Bon they live, to defend them from insult.
You are told, with confidence, that the North Americans
are all of them united. It^ is not true. I have letters, on
the veracity of which I can depend, informing me of the
€agtnuj. Ask the gentlemen lately come from North Ame*
iK», ttksj wiU tcU you they Ixsivc \)i^u iQi«^ «w»j>\^-
«XQa(^
A. 17^5. DEBATES. 321
cause they would not join in the general riot and disturb-
ance^
On the great question of the natural rights of mankind,
tod the right of taxation, I beg leave to make a few ob-
servations. When the first settlers went oiit, they were con-
tent to go under certain restridHons and regulations. What ■
were those regulations? Wefc hot the colonists confined
within certain bounds, and subjected to certain terms by charter
grants ? Wei*e thCy not then satisfied and happy to accept
the terms granted them, and to be tmdel* the proteftion of
the mother-country ? Did the first settlers in the colonies, to
whom the charters were granted, presume to say to the
mother-country, we will abide by your laws and regula-^
tions so long as i^e shall think fit, btit no longer ? Have
not the colonists all . along enjoyed every encouragement and
support which the first settlers could possibly have expedled ?
Was it not then understood, that they were to be subjeft to
the laws of this country ? Will any man say, that either the
original, or any of the late emigrants, ever went out with
any other views than those of interest ? Did the original set-,
tiers presume to talk about representatives in Parliament, and
of a refusal to be taxed without their own consent? Has a man,
whom I have indulged to possess a share of my house at a^i
easy rate, but subjeft to my rules, a right, when I am
grown old, thinking he is stronger than me, to say, I will
submit to your rules no longer, the hopse is mine, and I will
turn you out ? Is it because the colonies have arrived to a
flourishing condition^ under the wing of the pai^t state,
that they* have a right to rebel ? It has been asserfed, that
the colonists are the oflfspring of Englishmen, and as such,
entitled to the privileges of Britons. Sir, I am bold to deny
it,' for it is well known that they not only consist of English,
Scots^ and Irish, but also of French, Dutch, Germans in-
numerable, Indians, Africans, and a multitude of jfelons from
this country. Is it possible to tell which are the most turbu-
lent amongst such a mixture of people ? To which of them
is England to give u^ her original right over an estate belong-
ing to herself? I leave it to the learned and ingenious hc-
nourable gentlemen to define the true sense and meaning of
the difirerent charters granted to the colonies ; but I am afraid
their nice . distinctions and defkiitions will throw little light
noon the subjeft, and serve only to perplex and confound men
of ordinary understanding.
• The grand claim of the Americans is liberty ;' but it dp-
pears to .me; absurd to say, that a peo^e wh6 *fe^rt. %\a?5^%^
and are despotic over thcm> ti^yj mMvy oP'^YvjWa dx-sw \^^
Vol. 11, Y ' ' vas*'^'^^^^^^^
j2:a PARLIAMENTARY A.1775^
sustenance from the very bosom of slavery, have a right tc
the freedom which the inhabitants of this country enjoy.
The North American spirit and pra£tice in this respcft, have
surely nothing in them similar to what prevaik in Great Britain.
Would it not then ber a strange piece of policy, if not a sub-*
version of all order in the mother-country, to countenance
this dangerous spirit, which evidently aims at independencyt
and might speedily degenerate into tyranny, over their pre-
sent constitutional superiors ? What claim can those persons
have to an increase of liberty, who do not grant the smallest
exercise of it to* their neighbours ? or, if their claim were tcr
l>e admitted, in what manner is such liberty to be dispensed ?
Partially, or impartially ? Is the gran4child to be free, an({
the grandfather to remain a slave ? Is the brother to enjoy
liberty, and the sister to be excluded from it f
The question concerning the natural rights; of mfOakind
caimot with propriety come imder consideration in the present
dispute between us and over colonies ; liberty, genuine liberty,
if it exist at all, is confined to this and our sifter kingdom.
If our forefathers have been so= negligent as not to give st»-r
bility to the authority of this country over her colonieS} it is
high rime' that we should do it.
{ cannot reconcile it to the duty I owe to nvy country ii»
gencrial, and to- my constituents in particular, to be silent oa
this great occasion: ; things are got to such a height, that it
behoves every man to give- all the assistance in his power.
The method hitherto pursued to quell the rebellion in North
America has proved ineflfeftual, because it was mild and gen-
tle. We are not however to despair i more vigort)us and
better planned meatures will have a different efieft^ Your
troop? received a severe check on the 19th of April; what
else could be expefted ? The provincials were provoked at
being represented as cowards v they were determined to con-'
viiKe you of tlie contrary ; they fought, indeed, but how
did they light ? They attacked your troops fropi windows
of houses, and from behind walls, at a time the soldiers were
fatigued with a long march ^ neither has the lame^itablc afiair
of Bunker's Hill, on the 1 7th of June, any thing surprising
in it : the provincials were strongly entrenched on an emi-
nence, a situation which inspired courage, in confidence of
safety ; yet our troops fought and conquered under the great-
est disadvantages. Boston is a place badly s^ituated for de-r
fence, surrounded by hills, and liable to be attacked in va-
rious ways ; it is therefore entirely in^proper to keep an army
at a place Jio,icircumstanced> and for. this ceason your troops
A. 1775* DEBATES. 323
There has not as yet been any regular engagement, nor a
fair trial of militafy Skill and courage between his Majesty's
forces and the rebels ; i\ie numbers of the latter are undoubt-
edly great, and it will be difficult, if not impossible, to con-
quer them, if attacked i^hen so securely entrenched.
The people of the Massachusetts Bay appear to be both ob-
stinate and enthusiastic to the last degree ; they ought there-
fore to be treated like madmen, whom it were folly to con-
tend with J I would on this consideration advise to shut them
up with frigates and sloops of war, and leave them.
A noble Lord may remember, I took the liberty to propose
this measure to him in the month of February last, before
the reinforcement went out, and from a full persuasion of the
propriety of it, recommerided to his Lordship to send all the
army to New York and Philadelphia. I wish that plan had
been adopted, it would have prevented much bloodshed and
other ill consequences; but it must be admitted, that no
human foresight can determine in what manner the best con-
certed plans will operate. You are losing, to all appearance,
a complete year by your army being kept at Boston : the ene- ^
mies of adininistration exult, and reproach you with the
ignominious situation of British soldiers, cooped up in a state
of inaftion. But let not tliis discourage us j if it were not
for the real loss of so many brave men, who have xmhappily
fallen, every other consideration is immaterial ; you «are not,
however, without some advantage ^ time, which brings all
things to an issue, seems to be working favourably for you.
I presume, with all deference, still to offer my poor opinion;
it is, that the army should be sent to one of the southern,
colonies, to make one strong poist. If there is t.o be more
fighting, let the provincials make the attack, if they please.
I take it for granted you are to have an army of twenty or
twenty-five thoiisand men in North America next spring ; al-
though I mean they should be entrenched and aft on the de-
fensive, yet they may aft pffensiveljr as opportunity offers.'
Your army posted in a secure situation, will give loyal sub-
j^fts encouragement to declsure themselves ; they only want
proteftion.
I think there can be little doubt, that the force intended is
sufiicieivt to subdue the colonies to the southward of Delawar
River, arid, that sloops of war may easily obstruft the passage
of an army from the northern provinces, should an attempt be
made to 'cross tliat extensive river to join the insurgents on
the pther' side.
Your success against onehalf of NoTtVv A^rckexvca.^S^Y*^^^^
tt^jffo tfic'cdhijiiest of the whole, and it is mwc^-wxYc^-s^^
324 PARLIAMENTARY A. ^77^
you mny find men to recruit vour arrny in America ; money
will engage them to enlist. Such of those deluded people a»
^Y2 determined to continue in rebellion, nxay be allowed to
carry on their military designs a|id operatioxis in the interior
parts of tlie country, as long as they can keep together j they
ought not to be followed ; let your army still maintain one
firm post. . In time the rebels will be tared out i they will be
perplexed if you do not follow them 5, their guilt, folly, and
expellee, must breed intestine dissensions y the common men
niiist soon be convinced of the fraud of being paid In paper
currency ; the foolish and wicked resolves of the congress
with regard to non-importation and non-exportation, will
soon recoil on themselves and prove their destruction. The
congress, by their ridiculous and presumptions scheme of a
bir to all trade with Britain and her islands, have exposed
themselves to contempt, and, by this time, must be feeling
the ruinous effedls of it. They vainly imagined, that all the
merchants and manufaClurers of Britain would have taken the
alarm, and, through fear of the loss of trade, have yielded
to their views ^ but the good sense of the people of this
country has shewn them and the world, that they are not to
be deceived by such artifice.
Another of the ingenious devices of the North Americans',,
was, to lay in a stock of goods, which they thought suffix
cient to cloath them for an extraordinary time j but by au-
thentic advices, they are already in great want of all sorts of
necessaries : as one instance within my own knowledge, ^
letter I have received within these few days from a corre-
spondent in North America, iriclosing an order for goods to
be sent next spring if possible, contains this paragraph, " My
*• negroes will suffer much next" year, if matters are not
" speedily accommodated ; what the poorer sort of planters
^ " will do, I know'uot, for there is not a piece of linen of
" any sort to be got in any of the stores.*'
1 hopt the friends of the colonies will not be so bold to as-
sert, that they are such a supernatural race, as to live without
cloaths, any more than they can exist without meati drink^
and sleep. ' .
After your army has fortified one strong place, detach-
ments may be sent to otlier sea-port towns to ereft forts un-
der the cover of ships of war ; it will sopn appear how far, set- .
licment.s may be extended in the southern provinces.
l£ your sloops are vigilant, which doubtless they will be*.
it is next to an impossibility that cargoes of gOo4s can be
ftyugglcd Into North America to. 211^ extent, even in the
Li^'cc v/mtcr months, which are ou\y seHCK^\.o\!Si<tUQt!0Dwra4^^
A. 1775- D E B A T E-tS. 325
trading vessels can scarcely escape sloops of war, properly
stationed on the coast, and within the great rivers. In this
situation the colonists will be driven to the last extremity few-
want of cloaths and other necessary articles, particularly those
of the woollen kind. It is scarce possible they can subsist
with any degree of comfort without British and Irish goods 5
if they are supplied with tKe manufa^bires of this country by
any indiredl means, yet the pretext of the decline of trad*
may be kept up by designing men, although in fnA it be flou-
rishing. ' ;
I have read the petitions and addresses from some of the
manufadhiring towns, giving a dreadful representation of
their fears and apprehensions of a total decay of trade, " should
that be interrupted which we derive from a friendly intercourse
with North America, and by which alone our rank in Europe
can be supported**' In these p^itions they artftiHy inrinuaio,
that the present flourishing state of commerce throughout the
kingdom, is owing to accidental and temporary causes, such
as " the peace of Poland, the Spanish flota," &c. Sir, these
petitions are calculated merely for the purpose of imposing ori
weak minds 5 this /country furnishes many articles of com-
merce, from natural growth, and by the dexterity of outf
artists, which no other part of the globe can produce ; it is
impossible therefore that we can be deprived of our usual share
of trade with every part of the world 5 North A meric;^ in par-
ticular cannot be supplied with several of her commodities,
except from Great Britain. If a survey were taken of the
state of the manufaftures over all Europe, it will not be
found, that one nation with another possesses above one year's
superfluous stock of goods, any more than an extraordinary
quantity of provisions ; on the supposition therefore that the
American trade should be diverted into a foreign channel, the
nation which supplies them, must of course be it$elf speedily
exhausted, and forced to apply to Britain for a recruit.
Sir, I declare myself averse to any further concession
towards the colonies, than what was offered by the concilia-
tory plan, namely, " that the colonies should furnish an
adequate sum, to be raised amongst tliemselves towards the
general expence.**
The defence of North America has cost this nation many
millions; and it is but equitable now, that the colonists
should contribute to the alleviation of that burden. Admi-
nistration, in my opinion, betrayed the dignity of this coun-
try in making even that proposition, and after what has since
happened, the rebels are unworthy of such mild treaXs\Rx\^.
Fxoai whom ought proposals of ^ccovaTXvodi'JXVQtv vo tavs\^\
Y 3 YvaN«»
3i6 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
Have they not been the aggressors ? Have they not grogsl^r
insulted the constitutional authority of this empire ? The
North Americans in general^ indeed, arc objefts of com-
passion, rather than of resentment ; they have been led on,
and insensibly made the tools of fafHous and discontented
men in this and their own country. It is more than pro^
b^hle the stamp zO: would have been submitted to, had not
the opposition to it been countenstnced here.
As afiairs are now situated, some new and uncommon ex-
pedients ought to be devised, to reftify them. One of our
great objefts at present should be to succour our innocent and
peaceable subjects in this their time of distress $ fbr this rea-
son, I cannot altogether approve of all the afts passed for the
punishment of the delinquents, because they involve the in-
nocent with the guilty ; the former, as well as the latter, are
in great want of all sorts of cloatlis.
It being unsafe for mercliants to send out goods, h is Sub-
mitted, whether it would not be good policy in government
to give orders for, and export, a quantity of stich couunodi-
ties as our loyal American subjefts are kno^vn to want most,
and particularly cloathing for women and children; this
vould be an aft of great benevolence, as well as sound policy.
Such goods might be under the care of supercargoes, proteft-.
ed by the army ; they would be ready to supply our friends,
and also such of the disafFefted as might be disposed to submit;
this, under good management would prove beneficial, not
detrimental to the public ; nor would it require a very large
sum for this purpose; the goods might be bartered for flour,
and other provisions for the army. Merchants would, after
some time, be induced to send cargoes to the places where the
army was securely posted, which would relieve government
of that trouble. Sugars, rum, molasses, and even tea, ar-
ticles all of them much wanted, would find purchasers, and
be very acceptable, they would be the means of procuring
bread, flour, Indian corn, staves, shingles, &c, for the We^t
India islands 5 the sloops of war would proteft trading vessels
to different towns and creeks 09 the rivers ; detachments of
soldiers might be sent to assist the landing of goods ; trade
would thus be at least in the choice of foes as well as friends,"
and their necessitous situation would constrain them chear-
fully to embrace it; for who can* suppose that the naked would
refuse to be cloathed, or the miserable to be relieved ! and
tiius the olive-branch would be held out to them in one hand^
while the sword is kept in the other : let them make their
^pdon ; if they are determined to xemavu obstinate, we have
A. 177J. DEBATES. 377
only to continue firm; and I trust the contest will be decided
without much further bloodshed. It cannot be doubted that
those who are loyally disposed, of whom there are many,
wait but a pretence to shake off their obedience to the reso-
lutions of the congress, to which they now submit tihtough
compulsion.
As to the West-India islands, one of the.capkal objefts of
attention, your effedting the conquest of even only two or
three of the principal towns on the continent, would^ in a '
great measure, furnish them with necessaries ; tliis shoiild be
<ione with all the dispatch possible.
With regard to our manuftftures at home, a no less im-
portant ©bjeft, if the proposed exportation should take place,
they would be kept in employment, and thereby much unea-
siness prevented ; it is surely of the last xronsequence^ that
the distresses of the industrious pirt of the nation should be
alleviated to the utmost, and their aflFeftions to governnieiit
preserved. How is this to be affedled, if no goods are to be
•sent to America .? The manufaftures ought, nevertheless, to
be purchased at the risque of the public, and the goods laid
up in store till a demand for them should offer. This is a
common cause, and should be supported at the general £xpence,
if any should be incurred.
Sir, I must beg leave*also to mention the situation of an-
other class of men silffering great hardship*, I mean the mer-
chants and traders to North America, whose fortunes arc
locked up whilst the present disputes subsist ; not owing to
the want of inclination in their principal correspondents abroad
to remit, for there are men of as great honour in North Ame-
rica as anywhere, and who have sent all the pajrments they
could ; but in the present general confusion, which obstructs
the administration of justice, a stagnation of payments fol-
lows of course.
It is impossible for the merchant, under these circumstan-
<:fes, to discharge his debts to the shopkeeper and mechanic^
and this brirtgs on a general distress. To remedy this evil,
a committee of merchants, not in the American trade, might
be appointed to examine into the difficulties which the North
American merchants labour under^' What they .want k
money, or a credit for k, to answer their present exigencies ;
and, I presume, they would be well satisfied with a sum equi-
valent to one half of what they are disappointed iiU To ef-
feft this valuable purpose, I am persuaded, a less sum than
one miUion would be suflicient. Government, for this end,
Y 4 might
328 ' PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775*
might issue bills under the san£Hon of Parliament, bearing four
per cent, interest, to be lent to such merchants as may be found
intitled to this aid, under the stipulation of their paying the
interest on tlie bills so lent, half yearly, to the possessor of
them. It being further understood, that the borrower shall,
besides his own security, find two sufficient bondsmen to be
answerable, by indorsing the bills, for the repayment of the
loan at the end of two years after peace is re-established with-
America, or with the particular colony where any individual's
effe£b may be detained. Still further, in order to give full
satisfadlion, both to the holders of said bills and to the pub-»
li^, they must be so qualified as to return on tlic mer-
chant and his two securities, and be no longer passable aftet*
the two years are elapsed, from the time public notice has
been given that peace is restored, and courts of law open for
the recovery of debts. In this, or some such mode, a very
necessary piece of business might be transacted, without
much, if any loss, to the public ; and, indeed, no loss can,
happen, unless not only the mercliant, but likewise both his
bondsmen, siipuld become insolvent, My own concerns in
Nortli America are too small to induce mg to propose this
plan from selfish motives ; I hope, therefore, this House will
do me the justice to believe I am only pleading a general
cause, from the satisfaclion it would give me, to be in the
smallest depjree instrumental towards promoting the happiness
of the British merchants. This is no new thing in the com-
mercial world, for within these ^ few years, the Empress of
Russia, at a time of general distress, ordered a considerable
sum of money to be lent to the merchants ir^ her dominions,
which pi'cveiitcd the ruin of several of them.
The manufa<^urers and traders, who are afraid of the loss
of their business, afc much mistaken if they think it is to be
preserved by a repeal of the a<Sl's complained of, or by a sub-
mission to the Americans ; to rejy on their afi:eclion to this
country would indeed be to bujld on a sandy foundation.
It is notorious to every merchant in the American trade, that;
the most ncrtherji of the colonies, have long been in the prac-r
ticc of smuggling every article qf goods they could from Hoi-?
land and Germany ', ajid all the (,oloaies, withoi t exception,
have discovered great partiality to the French inlands, in pre-r
ference to the British. If you give up your authority over
the colonies, it is losing the substance for the sake of the sha-
dow; it is sacrificing a lasting trade for, a momentary, ill-
judged trancjuillity,
A. 1775. DEBATES* ": 329
You have been told, with apparent gravity, that ** peace is
in your power 5 that you have only to embrace hey to possess
her 5 but consider what kind of peace is meant, and from
whose mouths the voice of peaqe proceeds. Does, it come
JBromthe lips of bosom friends?. Does it flow from those you
have reason to believt sincere ? Is it not rath^ the^ language
of mockers, revilers, and deceivers, of men who wish :ypur
(destrui^on .^ .
Peace is recommended by s6mc right honourable gentlemen
who tell you the declaratory adl (an aft passed whUe they
themselves were in office) means nothing. - That aft certainly
meant something at the time it was made •, the intention of it
must at least have been a deception on this country, to palliate
the disgrace of repealing the stamp aft.
Those advocates for a paltry and inglorious peace, seem to
depend too much on their rhetorical abilities ^ they wantonly
sport with the constitution of this great nation, merely with
the view to overturn the present ministry, under the pretence
of rescuing their country from imminent danger.
Supposing those mighty patriots wore to prevail in the-pre-
$ent struggle for power, and to liavc settled with the Ame-
ricans upon their own terms, these honourable gentlcmeiij
when in office, may again change their language, and tell the
provincials, as they have told you, tliat they meant nothing.
Let the Americans trust them, if they will j but as you have
been already deceived by their dissimulation, it would be the
height of folly in this country to put confidence in such men
a second tune.
You are upbraided with insolence, cruelty, and . bloodshed,
iR-idiculous, false, unjust ! Did not tlie rebels first begin the
attack on tlie King's troops in both the engagements i Ad-
mitting the tea aft was wrong, does that justify the audacious
steps their lawless mobs took, to shew their resentment against
it ? Can any aft of government, even a mistaken zesd for
the authority of this country over her colonists, justify the
raising of armies, the concertuig and condufting every other
device of war, to resist the legislature of this country? Have
they not exercised such cruelties pver our loyal subjefts as our
^lost inveterate enemies would shudder at ? Will you not
resent such inhuman afts , committed on your defenceiesf
friends and subjefts, who have been (men, womo^j and
children) driven from their peacefrd habitations? Did not
the congress first, by their resolves, endeavour to starve your
West-India islands, and also to deprive your industrious ma-
nufacturers
330 PARLIAMENTARY A.i77^
iiufaAurers of employment ? Have they nbt,'by cv^ry art,
endeavoured to throw this kingdom into the utmbst c<mster-
tiation and confusion ? Can you bear such repeated insults ?
Can you, after so many and deliberate indignities offered jou,
treat with them, but as with revolted, rebellious subjeAs, who
ought thankfully to submit to such conditions as you mzf
think proper to give them ?
I hope, and trust, the ministry will continue' firm, and
that after ages shall not be able to say, that in the days of our
«iiost gracious sovereign, George the Third, America was lost
to England. Let us be steady in pursuing the interests of
this country, but at the same time merciful and forgiving. It
is more than probable that the ringleaders in this mischidF are
but few in number ; if they can be laid hold of, they deserve
no mercy; convince the lower class of those infatuated peo-
ple, that the imaginary liberty they are so eagerly pursuing, is
not by any means to be compared to that which the constitu-
tion of tliis happy country already permits them to enjoy.
Patience and perseverance in this great work are absolutely •
necessary , the time does not yet seem to have arrived for the
Americans to acknowledge their error. The natural course of
thiiig!^ will do more for yOu than great armies.
Where is the necessity of haste ? It is even better to risque
s war also with your real enemies, than to end the present con-
test in a dishonourable, pitiful and disgraceful way. Some
things require great drspatch, others mature deliberation ; tlie
more time you take to settle these controversies, you will ob-
tain the better term^s : negociations for peace resemble trans-
aftions in trade ; he who is the most eager to buy or sell, .
usually makes tlie wor^t bargain.
• This country^ when united, which it certainly must be in
cases of necessity, where the well-being of the . nation is at
stake, is always able to defend herself against the whole world;
consequently powerful enough to reduce her revoltedcolonies tq
0bedience. Let the colcmists know, that the longer they resist,
the heavier burden tliey will inciir, as in justice they must be
made to defray the expcnces of subduing the present rebellibir.
They have given you the oppoitunity, and now is the time,
to insist pn terms, safe vnd honourable for tliis country ; •in-
form-then^, in plain language, that yon are determined to
«re£li©r^y and in future to keep up a sufficient force amongst
them tV> maintain peace. Your naval power vs great; your
»esccin'ses' fyt military men, while you have Achcs, are im-
menfjej
A.X77S- DEBATES. 331
mensej hut above all, your cause is just: be not afraid;
Heaven will support you.
General Conway* If Administration meant any things
they should have prosecuted the operations by sea. He con^
demned the whole of the arrangements now proposed. He was
certain the force, noS^ going to be voted, would not be suf-
ficient. ,He was certain no force they could, with their ut-
most exertions, raise or maintain, would be adequate to the
task : it was not only his own opinion, but that of several
general officers, men of rank and eminence in their profes-
sion ; nay, it was the opinion of one of the first general of-
ficers in Europe, whose name, if insisted on, he was ready
to mention. But supposing the force to be adequate, sui>-
pose you could carry every thing according to your own ex-
peftations, what would it amount to ? Do you think tlie
other powers of Europe will sit silent and inactive at such a
season ? Do you think, though they should not take an open
part, they will not encourage and spirit up these people ?
They will not give that kind of assistance which America
wants, and they can best spare ? It is true, Holland has pro*
hibited any communication with the British colonies. Has
France or Spain issued any such public order ? Or if they did,
ought it to be depended on ? I am sure it ought not. I have
the strongest reason to believe, by information from persons
well acquainted with the matter, that none of them are to be
relied on ; and I have heard, from no mean authority, that
at least one of the former powers has given, and will con-
tinue to give them every secret aid, till they no longer shall
tave an interest in concealing their real sentiments. For my
part, I disapprove of the whole proceedings from the beginning
^o the end J the principles, the measures, the system, all
claim my wannest disapprobation ; I am therefore determined
to set my face openly against them. The noble Lord who
has the diredlion of the affairs of this country tells you, that
the Americans aim at independence. I defy the noble Lord, or
any other member of this House, toadduceone solid proof of this
charge. He says, the aera of 1763, is the time they wish to
recur to, because such a concession on our part would be, in
effisdl, giving up ,their dependence on this country. I deny
the conclusion too. I would ask the noble Lord, did the
people of America set up this claim of independence previous
to the year 1763 ? No, they were then peaceable and dutiful
subjeftir: they are still dutiful and obedient. — [Here a mur-
mor of disapprobation] I repeat my words ; I thio^ them so
in-
332 P A R L I A M E N.T A R Y A. 1775.
inclined •, I am certain they would be so, if they were per-
mitted. The afts they have committed arise from no want
of cither; they have been forced into them. Taxes have
been attempted to be levied on them ; their charters have been
violated, nay taken away; administration have attempted to co-
erce them by the most cnici and oppressive laws. What wiUmen
not attempt in such a situation ? What will not freemen fed
imder such a complication of misery and distress ? How doc%
any man in this Hoiise think men should aft, when overwhelm-
ed with a train of calamities i How ought freemen and Eng-
lishmen to aft under such circumstances ? I will not say that
the assertion may be striftiy legal, but I am sure it is founded
in the fimdamcntal principles of this constitution, and the
natural rights of mankind, to affirm they arc fully justi-
fied in their resistance; and, I hope, that that principle
is deeply engraven in the heirt of every Englishman. 1
would ask, is there one of you that would tamely or basely
submit to such a manifest injustice ? I say it is injustice in
the most aggravated sense, to take money from people againit
their consent, nay their express disapprobation, without a
single information relative to their abilities or means of pay-
ment. The noble I^ord says, the contest is not now about
taxation, but whether the people of America are to form ti
dependent part of this empire, or are not. But I beg leave .
to say that the dispute this moment existing, is about taxa-
tion ; for but once give up the claim, and every single step
you have taken throughout this business has been no less mad
and ridiculous, than violent and unjust. You sought a re-
Venue, to which you bail not a single fair pretension, because
they fully contributed to the proportion of the public burdens
by acquiescing in the monopoly of their trade. In fine,
though measures of coercion were constitutional, were equi-
table, I a?n pcrfcftly satisiicd they are totally imprafticable.
1 am sure there is not a gentleman of the profession, however
sanguine* will rise and tell the House, that he believes the
force to be voted this day is by any means proportioned to the
extent of the necessary operations, though the regiments
were effective and every way complete. If this be then the
case, it is plain some other phn is in contemplation. Let
then the noble Lord in the blue ribbon rise and give us some
information. I do not desire the detail, let us have the ge-
neral outline, to be able to judge of the probability of its
success. It is indecent not to lay before the Housf some
plan, or the outlines of a plan^. He demanded repeatedly,
what
A. 1775- P E B A T E S. . 333
what did the noble Lord mean ? How did he intend to z€t i
If Jb.is plan i^ conciliation, let us see it, that we may form
some opinion upon it ; if it be hostility and coercion, I do re-
peat again, that we have no cause for a minute's considera-
tion, for i can with confidence pronounce, that the present
military armament will never succeed.
Mr. Jenkinson contended, that several of the afts desired
by the Americans to be repealed, did not diredUy relate to the
present contest. He said, he was afraid that all attempts to
conciliate would be fruitless. A noble Lord [Lord Chatham^
in the other House, had formed a plan of conciliation 5 another
originated in that House ; but what was the reception they
met with ? They were both treated with every possible mark of
disrespect and contempt ; nay, so determined were the continen-
tal congress to rejeft any pacific overture, that they refused so
much as to receive the latter as a basis for treaty or negotia-
tion. He said, if there was the least prospeft of success, it
would be the accompanying our terms of conciliation with a
considerable force. There were several terms to be made be- '
fore conciliation could be obtained. He could mention many^
but at present would only mention one ; that security should
be given to all those who had adhered to the government of
this country over America \ and had, in consequence, been
driven from America. Terms of forcp were the measures
chalked out by his Majesty, in his speech from the throne \
a formidable armament, conditions of conciliation, and gra»
cious offers of forgiveness and prote<Slion. On this foundar-
tioh the present vote w^ proposed : if, therefore, premature,
explanations were desired j if the gentlemen,^ who pledged
themselves to support those measures, had altered their minds
in one event, or had withdrawn their confidence from the
King's servants, he saw no possible way to remedy matters
but by a change of administration j observing, that at this
very time, after going such lengflis, how cowardly it would
be to decline the contest almost at the very outset.
Lord John Cavendish said this was treating Parliament with
every possible degree of disresped. Measures are concerted
in the cabinet j the King is made by his ministers to express .
hjs general intentions j the House of Cx)mmons is desired ta-.
support those measures by voting ap enormous war establish- ..
ment; and when questions are asked, and explanations arc ;
desired, even by the very friends of administration, the gen-,
tlemen who call for a plan are very laconically referred to the
King's speech. The speech holds out geners^ls, and refers^
you
3S5 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775'.
▼aried from that line either in his conduft or opinion. Was it
now in the power of the House to have a choice, and was ft now
the question whether we should pursue this civil quarrel under
modes of policy or by measure of force, he should now, as he
did in 1769, give his opinion and his vote against force. But
that was not the ground on which we stood; our debates
were not whether or no we should go to war ; we were at
war. The Americans, (by a miserable fatality become our
enemies) " had closed with us in an appeal from reason to
•^ arms," " were determined to use the power which their Bene-
" ficent Creator had put into their hands, and to persevere
** with the utmost energy in the cause in which they were
** fntally involved. That they had great internal resources,
«* and every reasonable and well-grounded assurance of foreign
<^ aid/* That while they thought that we expefted of them
an uncond'ttiofial submissiofty their ultimatum^ held out to us,
was" the laying down our arms, and a confession and relln-^
<juishinf; of our errrors in opinion and condudt. That so go-*
ing back to 1763, a period in which these errors were re-
alized by ?ra6tice, they might then treat with us as to what
remained. • He said the winter of course gave a natural re-
spite to military force. He wished any ground might be
found to give an actual suspension of arms; but he could
not as a Briton, zvA in a British House of Commons,, enter-
tain the idea, in the face of the enemy under arms, of our
laying down our arms, and surrendering at discretion. He
wished for peace ; he thought peace might be had ; but as the
Americans were in all events prepared for war, they set
us the example , we should also be prepared, if peace could
not be had this winter. The Americans meditated, and were
able to establish, and would establish, as an independent
slate, a republic : " but necessity," to use their own words,
*• had not yet driven them to th:iy dcsprrate measure. They
•* still wish to remain united to the nation, subordinate to the
"mother-country, obedient to its Dvereignty. They still
«« lamented, as tlie last and worst of all evils, (?!ivery only
*^ excepted) the breach with us^ and most sincerely and ar-
•* dently Vv^isiied a reconciliation." He said, he was of opir
nion, that jx^uce might be had on safe and honourable
terms. He ventured very peremptorily to aiErm it ; he
said, you may, it' you will, have peace on terms which
will save the honour of government ; which will establish the
sovereignty of this country, a constitutional sovereignty 5.
and restore the union of tlie empire in all its compiercial
felicity
A.I775- DEBATES. 335
mothericountry, not«te tax them unrepresented, nor condemn
them unheard j thej had a right to rule them Uke English-
men, not to oppress them like, slaves. ^
Governor Johnstwie was not surprized administration were
unwilling to give information \ for he believed they had none.
A remarkable proof of it, he said, was, that Mr. Penn has^
not, since his arrival firom the very city where the congress has
twice assembled and ddiberatied, been asked a single question \
not .even when he presented the petition from the American
Congress to the noble Lord who is secretary of state for
that department.
Governor Pownallf (who had. been up several times be-
fore, but the chairman pointed to others) began with observ-
ing that still persevering, he arose to speak under every disad-
vantage and ill impression that a man could offer himself.
He appeared, he said, like one determined to force hi? im-
pertinencies on the House, and to obtrude opinions which
the coimnittee were unwilling to hear, yet, that was not his
turn oi chara£ter; he very seldom troubled them, but at
present, besides the desire he had to speak his mind, he had
particular reasons, respedting himself and his conduft in this
business, which he wished to give, in explanation of what
might be otherwise much misunderstood and much misrepre-
sented. He said, he had been invariably an advocate for peace \
was so at this hom*, and ever should be j and yet, circum-
stanced as afiairs now were between this country and America,
he should give his vote against our laying down our arms, ancl
for the continuance and strengthening our force. If ever,
said he, I had misrepresented the state of fadls -, if ever I had •
used the informations of which I was possessed, either to trum- ;
pet up a false alarm, or to give false hopes ; if ever I gave
or supported an opinion to serve any party whatever ; if ever
in any instai^ce I treated these matters as party matters, I
should be ashamed to rise in this House, I should not dare, to
open my mouth on the subjeA now^ in this horrid period of
events. New that I am going to speak to fadls, and give
my opinion on those fafts, if there is any person, who can fix
ufK^n any one article in which I ever misinformed the House, <
cither as to a single faft, or as to tlie effcfts o£ things, I beg
he may n<ft only disbelieve me now, but mark the m61. He
said, that in the WTetched commencement of this sad business, .
in the year 1769, he bad given his opinion against measures
of force, and by stating the evil and dcstruftive consequences
of such measures, had endcavx>ui^d to turn the mind of our
ksider$-from measures of force to 7n^des of policy ; he had never
varied
335 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775^.
▼aried from that line either in his conduft or opinion. Was it
now in the power of the House to have a choice, and was it now
the question whether we should pursue this civil quarrel under
modes of policy or by measure of force, he should now^ as he
did in 1769, give his opinion and his vote against force. But
that was not the ground on which we stood; our debates
were not whether or no we should go to war ; we were at
war. The Americans, (by a miserable fetality become our
enemies) " had closed with us in an appeal from reason to
*^ arms," " were determined to use the power which their Bene-
" ficent Creator Imd put into their hands, and to persevere
^ with the utmost energy in the cause in which they were
« fntiiliy involved. That they had great internal resources,
•* and every reasonable and well-grounded assurance of foreign
<« aid." That while they thought that we expelled of them
an uftc^ndithfial subfrnssion^ their nltinuitum^ held out to us,
was the layinrx down our arms, and a confession and relin-r
<juishin(r of our errrors in opinion and conduct That so go-
ing bacic to 17^3, a period in which these errors were re-
alized by -.-rac^ice, they might then treat with us as to what
remained. • He said the winter of course gave a natural re-
spite to military force. He wished any ground might be
found to give an actual suspension of arms ; but he could
not as a Briton, z\\\ in a British House of Commons,, enter-
tain the idea, in the face of tlic enemy under arms, of our
laying down our arms, and surrendering at discretion. He
wished for peace ; he thought peace might be had ; but as the
Am'^ricans were in all events prepared for war, they set
us the 'jxaniplc *, we should also be prepared, if peace could
not be hiid this winter. The ^lnericans meditated, and were
able to es;tahH:^h, and would establish, as an independent
state, a repubil.: : " but necessity," to use their own words,
" had n.jt yet cirivcii them to th. ::y dispcrafe measure. They"
•* still '/ish io remain united to the nation, subordinate to the
" mother-country, obedient to its . Dvereignty. They still
«* lamented, as tlie lust and worst of all evils, (plivery only
<^ excc;^)TeJ; the breach with us^ and most sincerely and ar-
" dently v^^isheu a reconciliation." He said, he was <rf o]lir
nion, that pt^ace mi;Tht be had on safe and hcmourabic •
terms. He v::ntured very peremptorily to affirm it 5 he*
said, you may, if you will, liave peace on terms which
will save the honour of government ; which will establish the
sovereignty of this country, a constitutional sovereignty 5. '
and restore th? uiiion of tlie empire in all its comiDercial
fidlkxty .
A. i^y^. D E B A T E 1^. 337
felicity; ahd, those matters settled, you may have a revenue
by compaSl. But this peace is not to be obtained by disho-
nourable concessions and repeals ; repeals of statutes back to
the year 1 763 would give them the advantage-ground, while
concessions would cut the ground from under your own feet.
Tou would concede, by such preliminaries, data from whence
conclusions, which you could not resist, would be drawn to
the giving much more than is now afked. And yet every
justice might be done to the rights and claims of the Ameri-
cans, and even your own rights and sovereignty confirmed and
established without these direft concessions and repeals. By
a revision and reforming of your whole system in the tnie
spirit of the establishment of your colonies, in the true spirit
of your aft of navigation and the laws of trade, as first
formed in Lord Clarendon^s time, who understood the
affairs of the colonies better than ever they have been under-
stood since.
Tliiis being, he said, his full persuasion, and having assured
himself from his Majesty's speech, that however necessary
it had been thought, and really was, to prepare for war at
all events \ yet his Majesty's ministers had engaged them-
selves to some plan of pacification. This, he said, he thought
was a niatter so much to be wished, and whidh was truly so
jhuch wished, that as far as in him lay, he should give hisf
aid ahd assistance to it. ^That he wished as anxiously, and
as ai*dently, as the gentlemen who called upon ministers to
produce their plan, to see it come forward; and did hope
they would produce it; He hoped that every line that might
lead to peace would be tried before the opening the next
campiaigh; but yet thought, that by a respectable and even
forrhidable" armament, we ought to be prepared for that cam-
paign, if necessity obliged us to open it. But setting his
foot firm on thiff ground of peace, he thpught that those whom
his Majesty entrusted with his powers of government could
alone make it ; that therefore, under the same idea by which
he objefted to the present motion, he should objedl to the
bringing forward any other propositions, by any person what-
sbever which was meant to anticipate, or to frustrate those
measures of peace, which he hoped he should see put by his
Majesty into the Ixands of His ministers. That until we saw
how far these were prafticable and honourable, or otherwise, .
he should be against any other persons taking the business
out of their hands; that as we heard last year the concir
iiatory proposition explained into an auctlotv> -ai ^VviSx
* Vol. II. Z x^^-
338 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
the Americans were to bid up for their rights, so now he
found we were to have, (by a competition of propositions
to be brought forward by some gentlemen) a Dutch auHian;
at which parties were to bid downwards for the good il^
and favour of the Americans ; those to be best entitled to it
who could offer the lowest terms ; he thought this, he said,
so unfitting, that he would put the previous question upon any
such propositions, even upon those which an honourable gentle-
man [Mr. Burke] had given notice he would propose and move*
He then went to the explaining some matters of faft which
had been asserted. First, in answer to an idea of his being
intended to be one of the commissioners mentioned in the
speech; he totally disavowed any communication about it,
or the least knowledge of it. He said, if it were offered, he
should wish to know, first, whether the powers to be granted
were such as could be of any use; he said these commissionen
could not treat with the present self-created congress, and on
the other hand, that no provincial assembly woiild treat
with them ; he said there must be other means found to
obtain even preliminaries whereon to treat. In answer to a
charge made against ministry for sending the transports so late
to America, and to Quebec especially, he said, single ships
might and did go all the year round to some part or other of
America ; that they might even get up to Quebec so late as
Christmas ; that until tibe river was shut by being frozen up,
the northwesters and monsoons, on the latter season, were not
against but for them when once in the river ; that though
there might be bad weather before, yet winter did not -usu-
ally set in, so as to shqt up the river, till Christmas.
A gentleman had said that the French exclaimed against
our condufl: at the breaking put of last war, in seizing their
ships without a previous declaration of war, as a breach of
the law of nations. He explained this, and shewed that the
French were the aggressors, and that they broke the law of
nations, by seizing our Indian-traders, carrying thetn pri-
soners in irons to Canada, confiscating their goods to a great
amount, destroyine their habitations and settlements, and
taking the King's torts by force. That he had the ;iccounts
of these losses made out in an authentic way, had sent them
to the minister at the time, and had now duplicates of them
by him; that he hoped therefore we should hear no more of
this reproach*
Mr. Burhe was witty on the notice now given of putting.
Uie previoufi question on his motion; pointing out the won-
dors'
A^l^^S. D E B A T E S- 539
Acn that were daily enafted through that means. He con-
gratulated administration upon it ; and observed, that they
had already given up the idea of taxation, and seemed rather
doubtful of recovering America on any terms ; but in such
a state of political despair, the honourable gentleman tells
them, that not only peace and America may be recovered^
and restored, but that a revenue may be yet obtained 5 and as
a proof of the e£Bcacy and probability of this plan, every
proposition that came short of that, nay every proposition -
but that of the minister, should be smothered in embryo by
the previous question. He admitted, that the honourable
gentleman had knowledge — ^But now, he said, (looking at
Mr. Jenkinson) let me turn from knowledge to authority^
which has always more weight in this House. I shall now
speak to the real minister* From his speech it is obvious
» what is intended. An army is to do the businejss; since that
is the case he should rest satisfied without further enquiry :
but just to beg leave to know if there was one gentleman of
the military profession in the House, (and, blind as he was,
he could discern several red coats) who would rise and tell
the House, that from his conscience he was satisfied the esti-
mate on the table, and the arrangements in consequence of
it, WQjild answer the ends proposed.
Mr. PowySf in reply to Mr. Jenkinson, said also, that now '
he found it was war that was intended.
[An altercation arose, whether the board of trade had not
neglefted to apply to governor Tryon, when in England, for
information on American affairs. It was said by a member,
[Sir John Wrottesley] that the New York petition, presented
last session, W21S written in England. It was warpaly contra-
^difted by another tnember [Mr. Burk] who offered to bring
three evidences to disprove the assertion, and challenged the-
honourable gentleman to bring his informer.^
The question was put at near eleven o'clock, on the first of
these .resolutions, and the committee divided, — Ayes 227 j
Noes, 73. Adjourned to the loth.
November 10, private business. Adjourned to the 13th.
November 13.
The House in a committee of supply.
. Lord North, after briefly stating some of the public ac-
counts, .spoke of the necessity of quelling the disturbances in^
America, remarked on the expence of this measure, and
then on the propriety and expediency of applying to the
landed gentlemen for their support, at a time, he said,'^heii
the other resources of the state were incompetent to the pur«
Z 2 '^^^R*
340 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775
pos^. He therefore moved that the land-tax for 1 7 7<5 he Jim
shillings in the pound.
Sir Joseph Maivhey said the American war was unnecessarj
and wanton; and it was difficult to determine .whether it was
most founded in folly or injustice.
Mr. J, Johnstone said, that however unacquainted he mig^t
be with parliamentary proceedings, he had observed, since the
commencement of the present session, it was expefted by the
friends of administration, that no proposition of theirs, how-
ever wild, extravagant, or novel, should be questioned. This
to him was a most extraordinary procedure, nor could he sec
to what end Parliament assembled, if they only assembled to
vote, not to deliberate. He hoped, however, for the sake
of appearances, that the minister would stand forth, when
he came to demand the public money, and tell the House to
what purposes he really meant to apply it.
Sir George Tonge moved an amenineut, that it should be
three shillings instead oifour.
The Lord Mayor [Mr. Sawbridge] said, though the land-
tax was a tax the easiest coUefted, and gave the minister the
least influence in its mode of colleftion; yet no considera-
tion of convenience could balance, what he felt on the pre-
sent occasion, when not only the treasure and blood, but
the honour of the nation were sacrificed, to the traitorous and
despotic designs of a junto, carried into execution by the most
unprincipled prostitute tools that ever disgraced this country.
Mr. Vyner said, he had hitherto supported the measures of
the minister respefting America, though he condemned the
introducing foreigners into any part of the dominions of
Great Britain, without the previous consent of parliament.
Standing thus affefted, when the motion for the recommit-*
ment ofthe address was made, as he approved of the great
line sketched out in the speech, he found himself under z
necessity of voting for that measure. The vote, however^
he gave on that occasion, was a conditional one; it was on
the supposition that a bill of indemnity was to be brought
in and passed, in order to legalize that unconstitutional man-
ner of introducing those troops. In a few days after, a biU
of indemnity was brought in, and read a first time, and
©rda*ed to be read a second time ; but a fortnight has since
Bssed, and he never heard a syllable more concomtng H.
is reason for rising on the present occasion was, to assure
the minister of his support, and chearflilly to agree to the
proposed resolution, provided his Lordship kept his word with
his best friends. He begged his Loxdship to tell him whether
A- I775» DEBATES. 341
the indemnity bill was in being, or whether it had been
starved or stifled, or had its throat cut in the cradle, which in
his opinion, would be cruel, as he had understood since it
came to be first mentioned, that he was pleased to own it for
one of his own children.
Lord North replied, that the child he seemed to be so soli-
citous about, was safe from all, the accidents he affeftcd to
dread so much ; and to drop thp simile, he would move to*
morrow to have the bill read a second time.
Sir William Wake observed, the minister comes with a bill
in one hand, and tells you very seriously that he has framed it,
he has presented it, but when it is past, it will signify no more
than so much waste paper ; for it is granting a pardon for no
crime \ and indemnifying a man against his inclination and
his judgment.
Lord North said he never sought to shield his public con-»
duct by an aft of Parliament ; and the more so on the pre-
sent occasion, because he entirely relied on the purity of his
intentions. Other gentlemen, however, happened to be of
contrary sentiments, to whose opinions he wished to pay pvery
reasonable degree of respeft and attention. It was to meet
the ideas of those gentlemen he took upon him to frame and
fupport such a bill ; it was xo give them perfect content, that
he was resolved to do all in his power to carry their ideas into
execution.
Mr. Byng congratulated the country gentlemen on the ad-
ditional shilling land-tax, as the first happy friiits of American
measures.
Mr. Hartley said. That it required but little foresight la^t
year, to prophesy as he had done, that if the ruinous system
of American measures continued, our land tax must he raised
itb four shillings. He wished that his present fears might
prove in the event less well-founded, but that he saw no
probability of the land-tax being ever reduced below four
shillings. Instead of the promised revenue from America^
we shall fiind a perpetual mortgage on our land, to pay for
unjust and ill-executed measures. It requires but a very
slight accumulation of debt, a very trifling loss upon the
revenue, to make a three shilling land-tax with the sinkings
fond insufficient for the ordinary peace esti^blisbment. The
][8aid-tax at three shillings, added to the annual malt-tax, pro-
duce net about i>9oo,oooL The sinking-fundf upon an
average of seven years, about 2,500^0001. The profit upon
an annual lottery 150,000!$ altogeth^ making about
4^50,090!, T)s» WWual rsite c^^p^n^^s frq^i i 768 to 1 774^
342 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775,
upon an average, including the annual increase of the nav/
debt, has been about 4,150,000!. As soon as the dijSbrence
between the annual income and pur annual expences, which
is but about 400,000!, is lost by falling oflF or the revenue,
or swallowed up to pay the interest <5f the enormous debts
which are now contracting, it follows unquestionably^ that
we must require the additional shilling upon land, to support
even the peace establishments which we have hitherto men-
tioned. As a foreta^'e of the losses to be expected in the
revenue, one branch is gone; the revenwc on tobaccol The
produce of that is nearly 300,0001, besiSes aU the profit of
the trade and commission. This cuts deep into the 400,000!.
surplus just now stated. How many times 300,000!. may be
cut off from the revenue, when the fatal, influence of these
measures come to be felt, in every branch, and throughout
the whole circuit of our commerce, should be matter of the
most alarming apprehension. In the next place, for the debts
that we are so blindly contracting, that they will probably be
kept out of the public sight as long as possible, but they
must come out at last. The navy debt inunense. The trans-
port, service perhaps greater than at any period in the latter
war.. And for the army extraordinaries, if we ait to main-
tain an immense army, at the dis^^ince of 3000 miles, to be
supported with every necessary and contingency from hence,
who can say what proportion they may bear to any case hi-
therto experienced ? The case itself is certainly without
example. However vague the premises are, yet we may be
sure that these expenses are enormous : There is ho speci-
fying, who can give us assurance, that the total of the navy
debt, the transport service, the army extraordinaries, the
exchequer bills, the civil list debt, all deficiencies, &c. &c.
not only now existing, but what shall be added in the course
of the year for which we are now providing, shall be so little
as five or six millions, perhaps more. Over and above all
these losses upon the revehue, all debts contracted, and to be
contracted, which must be supplied with the perpetuity^ t>f
the four shillings upon land.' Another annual charge has
been announced by the noble Lord • at ^ the treasury, viz. a
proposed augmentation of the civil list. If any weight were
wanting to turn the scale, and to put the perpetuity of the
four shillings past hope, • this must decide. "Why are mini-
sters so obstinately bent to plunge this nation into inextrica-
ble perplexities and boundless expence. Even upon the ground
of the interested views of administratioii, if the considerations
of humsmkj and justice have lost all vtifluence with them^-
A. 1 77 J- DEBATES. 34J
let them chusc deliberately, whether they perfer the waste
and ruin of the public revenue to procure the destruftion of
their fdlow subjects; or, whether they will cultivate the
good-will of the people of England, by providing those pro^
per resources, by which, without oppressive burthens or the
prospect of bankruptcy, they might be enabled, upon suitable
occasions to be ready to testify their affeftions to a gracious
Sovereign. The continuance of the American war, and its
consequences (perhaps European wars) must defeat the pos-
sibility of any perpetual augmegatation of the civil list. In-
dependent of the consideration of grants to the civil list,
being suspeAed as affording the means of corruption, who ,
could hesitate at the option, whether to grant his money for
the destrudHon of his fellow subjeAs in America, or to sup-
port his Sovereign in dignity and splendour ? It is in the dis^
cretion of ministers to harmonize the interests of the crown
with justice and mercy to their fellow subje£h.
Mr. Baldwin said, he had always understood, the dispute
with America was for a revenue to be raised dierey.to re*
lieve the country gentlemen ; but having since heard, that the
idea of taxation was given up, that the object was abandoned,
he thought, if so, it was improper to expend any more mo-
ney in the contest, and thereifore he should, in that case, be
against the noble Lord's motion.
Lord Narth said, he was sure the honourable gentleman,
jMr. Hartley] who supposed the sinking-fund would in the
course of the year 1776, be anticipated 700,0001, was qpre-
giously mistaken, according to the .presenl: estimates, ami it
was impossible to provide against every exigency, or to fore-
see or prevent accidents. He said, the honoiiraU^ gentleman
had pointed out how mudbi more meritorious it wpuld l^ to pay
his Majesty's debts, than to squander away the national trea-
sure in z&s of such a nature as would make the most obdurate
feel and tremble. He suspeded the lumotu-able grentleman
was, as ignorant of the true di^sition of the gracious
Prince, who for so long a time has filled the throne of these
kingdoms, as he was of the nature of the dispute, which
he called a wanton effbsicm of blood. I will t^Il hiip then;
[continued his Lordship,] that his Majesty, libe the true far
ther of his people, more zealous and anxious for their in-
terests, their reputation, and their honour, than his own,
has foregone- every private consideration $ he has kept back
his own wants, in order to make rpon^ for those of his
iiountry. l^ead, thcr?fope, of ^MnikiBg abeut his own af-
Z ij fairs^
344 PARLIAMENTARY . A. ^7^
£urs, instead of reminding Parliament of Ihs very urgent
iiecessities, he has only desired it to take care of the general
interests of his ^ubjc£b, and their own honour; carefully
^voiding so much as to hint at his own wants till the great
national objedls shall be first adjusted. ^Phe hon. gentleman
seems to affirm, with great confidence, that the Virginians
^e determined to turn their tobacco plantations into com
grounds. I beg leave to differ from the hon, gentleman, and
jhat fi-om authority on which I can depend. They arc not so
infatuated to forego tlie very singular advantages they enjoy
from thiis very beneficial trade. He says, the mother coun-
pj reaps much the larger part of the gross proceeds. In
this, he is equally mistien j for, firom the best intelligence
1 Save been able to gaui, I find, that the profits are divided
in the proportion of seven to America, and three to England.
He likewise exaggerates the duties upon tobacco, much be-
yond their true estimate ; for by the latest retiu-n come to
my hands, I perceive, that the duty in England amounts to
240,000!. per ann. and in Scotland, to 2o,qooL per ann.
Another honoiurable gentleman [Mr. Baldwin] is afraid the
idea of taxing America is given up. It is true taxation was
the original question with America, but. now the dispute ia
much higher. Still he had not a doubt but some mode would be
adopted by which a contribution would be obtained from Ame-
rica and brought into the public treasury here 5 when his Ma-
jesty's ministers said, that tlie idea of taxation was abandonedj
they never intended by that expression more, than that it
was abandoned for the present \ that is, that taxation was but
a matter of secondary consideration, when the supremacy and
legislxjftive authority of this country was at stake. When,
^erei^^re, his Majesty's miftj^ters spoke in the general terms
atove- alluded to,^ I would have my honourable friend per-
feftly undastand, that taxation is not nor ever was otrt of
their view. It is necessary that taxation should be insisted
on, and enforced ; because to ensure your legislative authority
and commercial advantages, it will be aftually necessary you
should combine it with a tax, otherwise you would never be
able to carry one into effectual execiition without still exer-
cising the other, thpugh. i>p kind, of advantage should arise
from it.
Mr. Baldwin said he was satisfied with this explanation.
Governor Johnstone was fpr Lord North's motion, be-
cause, having voted the services, there must be money for their
support, and the lan4'-ta& he thought the best, it ii^as the
only
A. 1775- ' D E B A T E S. 345
only encrcased t»- that was ever remitted, whereas raising
money in any other mode had been found to be a perpe-
tual tax.
Right honourable T. ToKvmhend was for Lord North's mo-
tion, for the same reason j that as' the army and navy were
voted they must not be starved ; and observed that t^ pre-
sent encrease to four shillings would never be reduced ; for the
American war wduld involve the ministry in so many debt$
the additional shilling would never be taken off.
Sir H, Houghton spqke for Lord North's motion.
Sir George Savile said, he was astonished to hear such mi-
nisterial language, for the first time, as had this night fallen •
from the noWe Lord at the head of the treasury j that a vote
upon one occasion should bind in every possible instance th^
might arise. Such a language, he insisted, was unparliamen-.
tary. For instance, there were many gentlemen, who at the
first blush of a business, might have hastily ^eed to measures
of coercion, vrbo, when they came to consider the consequent
ces, and weigh the manifest certain inconveniences against the
probability of success, might he very ready to retra£t, and be
well known ; he abhorred the idea of robbing the Americanst
of their liberty •, but supposing he had first been of a different
way of thinking, when he came to support measures with hia
purse, when he came to give the only true test of his senti-
ments, he might probably jdter his opinion 5 and whatever
the current language might be of a disinclination to burdei^
their constituents, he believed it was one of the most
wholesome and constitutional checks on the representative,
that when he bound the represented, he at the same time
bound and taxed himself. He said besides, that this me-
thod of voting money for services unknovm to the House,
or at least on which they had no substantial controul, fur-
nished ministers with opportuijiities of bribery and corrup-
tion, which were to the last degree fatal and ruinous in their
consequences.
' Lord North rose to CQUtradift what he termed a most ridi-
culous and absurd assertion ; the King had his revenue, the
several departments had theirs j and though it was impossible
in the nature of things, to chc^ck them immediately, yet the
ensuing session, when the several acpount^ of the preceding
one wisre made up, any gentlepaan was at Uberty to examuie
them, to det<(9: errors if were were any, and to. call the mini-
sterial cfficers in their several departments to account, and if
proved
J46 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
proved guilty of malversation in office, to bring them to .con*
clign punishment. "
Mr. Innes said, he was for the four shillings in the pound
land-tax, as it did not affeft him.
Sir Joseph Mawhey^ thought what fell from the last honour*
able gentleman deserved the attention of the House. If he
was not aflFeded by the land-tax, he should Jse glad to know
where his qualification was ? •
The House divided upon the amendment. For it 47,
against it 182. The main question was then put, and agreed '
to.
November 13.
Nothing done (not members sufficient for a ballot, to try
a contested cle£bion, and therefore obliged to adjourn.)
November 15.
Mr. Frederick Montagu reported from the committee, who
were appointed to take iato consideration the standing orders
of thift House, relating to private bills, which were made in
the last session of the last Parliament, and to report the same^
with their opinion thereupon, to the House 5 that the com-
mittee had considered the same accordingly, and had come to
several resolutions, which they had direfted him to report to
the House •, and he read the report in his place, and after-
wards delivered it in at the table, where, the same was read ; '
?u3d the resolutions of the committee are as followeth; viz.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that
the standing order of the ilouse, pf the z^'th day of Aprils
1774, " That, after this session of Parliament, before any
petition is presented to this House^ for inclosing^ draining
or improving, any lands, fens, or commons, a printed or
written notice of such intended applicatiop to Pariiament be
• affixed on the church-doorpf the parish or parishes, in whicl\
such lands, feas^ and commons, do lie, for three Sundays in
the months of August and September, or cither of them, im-
mediately precediiig the session of Parliament in which such.
petition is to be presented," be adhered to.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that the
standing or^er of the House, of the said 25 th day of April,
1774, " That, after this session of Parliament, in all T>ills
for inclosing lands or commons, the names of the commission-
ers proposed to be appointed, and the compensations intends
ed fcM- the lord of the manor and the owners of tithes, in liei^
of their respeftive rights, where any bargains or agreements
have l^een made for such compensations, be inserted in the
8 - ^o^^
A. 1775- DEBATES. 347
copy of the bill presented to the House ; and that all copies
of such bills, whether printed or written, which shall be sent
to anjrof the persons interested in the said manor, tithes, lands^
or commons, for their consent, do contain the names of such
proposed commissioners, and also such intended compensa^-
tion," be adh^ed to.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that
the standing order J>f the House of the said 25th day of April,
1774, " That, after this session of Parliament, before any'
petition is presented to the House, for making ia turnpike road,
or for the renewal or alteration of any aft df^afliament passed
for that purpose, notice of such intended application to Parlia-
ment be given, ^at the general quarter session of the p9^cet
which shall be held for every and each county or distrift,
through which such road passes, or is intended to pass, at the
Michadmas immediately preceding the session of Parliament
in whfeh sxich petition is to be presented," be adhered to.
Resolved, That it fe the opinion of this committee, that
the standing order of the House, of the said 25th day o|
April, 1774, " That this notice be gi^n, by affixing to thcj
door of the "sessions house, where such general quarter sessions
jure held, a printed or written paper, desmbing thd|^ parishes
through which the ^id road passes, or is intended to pass ; and
that such notice be also printed in some one newsrpaper of
the county, orj if there is no such paper printed for that coun*
ty, then in the newspaper of some near or adjoining county,
three times at least, in the months of A^guM':and Septembo-,
or either of them, immediately preceding the session of Par-
liament in which such petition is to be presented," ht ad-r
hered to.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of thifftommittee, that the
standing order of the House, of the said 25th day of April,
i774j " That after this session of Parliament, when any pe-
tition is presented to this House, formaking a navigable canal,
or for making or improving the navigation of a river, or fof
altering any aft of Parliament passed for either of those pur-
poses, there be presented with such petition, a plan describing
the line of such intended canakor navigation, and the landi
through which the same is to be carried} arid that previoiis
application be made to J(he owners and occupiers of such lands,
■for their assent to the proposed canal or navigation ; and that
separate lists of the mmts of such owners and tjiwrcupiers be
presented also with the said petition, distmguisbing which of
{hem, on such application^^ hitye ai^ted to, or dis.sented
■ fromt
3^8 PARLIAMENTARY A^ m5'*
firom^ the said proposed canal or navigation^ x>r are neuter in
wspeA thereto," be adhered to."
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this conunittee. That
tbe standing order of the House of the said 25th day of April
1774, " That after this session of Parliament, .when any peti^.
tion is presented to this House, for making a navigable canal^
or for making or improving the navigation of a river, or for
i^^ki^g a new turnpike road, or for raising, any further suna
of money for any of those pm-poses, there be annexed to the
said petition an estimate of the proposed expecice of such un-
dertaking, signed by the person or persons making the same,
together with an account of the money subscribed for carry-
ing the said work into execution, and the names of the sub-
scribers, with the sums respeftively subscribed by them," be
adhered to.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee. That
the standing order of the House, of the said 25th day of April,
^ That after this session of Parliament, in all bills for mak-
. ing a navigable canal, or for making or improving the navi-*
gation of a river, or for making a new turnpike-road, there be
inserted a clause, compelling the subscribers for carrying any
$uch work into execution to make payment of the sums seve-
tally subscribed by them/' be adhered to^
. Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, That
the standing order of the House of the said 25th day of April,
*' That after this session of Parliament, when any petition
for a canal, navigation, or turnpike-road, or for renewing or
altering any a6l of Parliament passed for .any of those pur-
poses, or for inclosing, draining, or improving, any lands, fens,
or commons, hath been preser^ted to this House, the commit*.
tee to whom tlie said petition shall be referred, or,^in case
sucli petition shall not be referred to a committee, then the
committee to whom the bill for those purposes shall be conv
mitted, do examine, in the first place, how far the orders con»
t'^ined in the six resolutions first reported from the conmiittee,
as agreed to by this House, have been complied with ^ and
the chairman of suth committee shall report the evidence,
iipon such examination, to the House, on the report of. such
petition or bill,'* be repealed.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, That
after this session qf Parliament, when any petition for a canal|
navigation, or turnpike-road, or for renewing or altering any
a<.^ of Parliament passed for any of those purposes, or for in-
closing, ilraining, or improving any lan^s, fens, or commons.
A. 1775. DEBATES. 349
hath been presented to this House, the committee to whom the
said petition shall be referred, or in case such petition shall not
be rrferred to a committee, then the committee to whom the
bill for those purposes shall be committed, do examine, in the
first place, how far the orders contained in the six resolution*
first reported from the committee, as agreed to by this House^
have been complied with ; and the chairman of such com-
mittee shall report the same to the House, on the report of
such petition or bill.
Resolved, That it is the opinion of this committee. That
the standing order of the House of the said 25th day of April,
** That, after this session of Parliament, in all bills for inclo-
sures, there be inserted a clause, compelling the commissioners
to account for all monies by them laid out and assessed oh the
parties concerned in the said inclosures," be adhered to.
The bill to indemnify such piersons as have advised his Ma-
jesty to send to the garrisons of Gibraltar and Port Mahon 1
part of the eleftoral troops of Hanover, during the recess of
Parliament, was read a second time, and coihmitted.
The House in committee on the bill for empowering his
Majesty to assemble the militia in cases of rebellion in any of
the dominions of the crown of Great Britain : a motion was
made to amend the preamble with these words, '^ that th€
said power should not extend beyond the continuance of the
present rebellion."
The Lord Mayor [Mr. Sawbrtdge] contended that this bitt
would throw an additional vreight into the hands of the crown,
already become too powerful, which might and probably
would be productive of very dangerous consequences.
Lord John Cavendish said', if the fincnds of adminfstra^ion
Opposed the amendment, it would convince him that his sus^
picions were well-founded, which were, that the present bill
was no more th^h a mere colourable pretext for arming the
crown vnth power hitherto unknown to the constitution.
Sir George Savile said the very point meant to be covcrtJj^
carried by this bill, was what no kin? of England, even th^
rtiost despotic, was ever able ta gam; that on this was gtouiwt-
«d the leading contest between Charles L and his Parliament?^
long before that assembly was charged with any views of fee-"
tion, or of overthrowing the constitution. Hitherto, he said,
no man in this country could be armed without the consent
of Parliament ; the army were armed by Parliament 5 so wiere
the militia : but if this bill should pass, the military would
be, or at least might be, armed by the King, without the con-»
sent
350. PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^;
sent of Parliament. Many things might be urged on the
ground that the militia were the great constitutional force of
the kingdom; that nothing of course can be feared from them^
for they will aft in a double capacity, of defenders of their
country and its constitution. The argument is plausible, and
therefore the better calculated to deceive ; but he begged leave
to draw a very different conclusion. There were always two
parties in this country ; no matter as to their principles : the
Prince would have it in his power, by this bill, to put themili«
tia into the hands and under the command of which of those
* ' he thought fit, and to call them out into aftual service when he
5 leased ; for as to the condition of a rebellion being within the
ominions of the crown of Great Britain, he looked upon that
as nothing 5 as means might be easily devised to furnish a pre-
tence* sufficient to justify the embodying the militia. What
then may be the consequence, but that an ambitious or weak
prince, supporting or urged by a revcngeftil persecuting £k:-
^ tion, may create a civil war in some distant part of the em-
pire, in order at length to give them an opportunity of. exter-
minating or triumphing over their adversaries at home, and
destroying the liberties of their country.
Mr. Hobart said, the liberties of no free country could be
preserved, on the supposition that the people Were in a state
like that described by the honourable gentleman ; that the
Parliament must pay the militia, consequently the ministry
would be cautious to assemble them without a just cause ; and
while the present constitution continued, it would be absurd
to guard against Parliament, in whom we must continue to
repose a confidence.
Mr. Serjeant Adair entered into several legal definitions of
treason and rebeUion. He adverted to a law passed in the
reign of Edward I. in order to shew the true ancient ground
on which the militia of this kingdom rested, and so traced thp
fubjeft down to the present times. He insisted that if the
friends of the bill meant what they asserted, they would be
amply content to have a temporary one. That when they
taid the bill meant no more than it exjpressed, why did they
not define and specify the sort of rebellion, the extent of it,i
and its locality? No ; any thing the governing powers thought
proper to call rebellion, would .soon be deemed so. He m-
stanced the various cases, or afts of violence, which in law are
deemed levying war, such as levelling enclosures, pulling down
meeting-houses, bawdy-houses, &c. He mentioned particu-
larly the cases of the Oxford riotersj and the puUine down
bawdy-
A* 1775- DEBATES.- 351.
bawdy-houses in the reign of Charles II. and the pulling
ijown Burgess's meeting-house, in the reign of Queen Ann,
when some persons were tried and condemned for high-treason,
for being concerned in that riot» He observed finally, that
the British empire extends to the four quarters of the globe ;
that if any illegal or riotous aft, of the nature now alluded to,
should happen, no matter whether at Patna, Senegambia, or
Boston, the minister might construe it into rebellion, and call
out the militia.
Sir Grey Cooper contended, that the minister could not call
out the militia, without assigning his reasons for soloing, and
submitting them to Parliament for their approbation, when-
ever they met, if not sitting at the time.
The right honourable T. Townsbend did not much approve
of the bill, but would give his assent to its passing, because if
it should not pass, Germans would certainly be brought over ^
yet he hoped the bill would be properly limited. He never
knew or read of a standing army which did not originate in a
militia. Several free governments had been overturned by a
militia ; particularly one near home. It was well known that
Louis XI. of France overturned, and completely destroyed the
liberties of his country by a miHtia.
Mr. Cator against the amendment ; he did not know whom
people could trust, if they dare not tri?.n themselves.
Mr. Dempster for the bill; observed that the right ho^
noiurable gentleipan [Mr. Townshend] vvho said that all the
free governments of Europe had been destroyed by a militia,
was mistaken, for history would furnish inany more instances
in which they had been overthrown by standing armies ; and
he hoped that a militia would be established in the north part
as well as the south part of the island, for the defence of the
nation in generaL
The right honourable 7*. Townshcncl oVjzditi. to the small-
ness of the qualifications of officers who were to serve, and
said they ought to be raised.
Lord Northy after paying great encomiums on this constitu-
tional mode of defence, replied to the last objeftion, by ob-;
serving, that quahfications were higher in the militia than for
the members to sit in that house to make laws.
Governor Johnstone insisted thit the old aft, as it now stood,
wanted no amendment, unless in case of rebellion being in Ire-
land 'y for the King, in case of rebellion or invasion in this-
kingdom, is already empowered to call the militia out in.
fourteen days.
■ ' • ■ Sir,
35^ PARLIAMENTARY A. 177^.
Sir George Tongey for the slmcndmcnt ; that the House had
alwayd.a right to be jealous and suspicious^ when no reason wa^
oflSwed to be assigned.
Lord North said, he saw no occasion, if the law Was a raod
law, it ought not to be restrained to the continuance of Hub
present disturbances in America. The question being put od
the amendment, the committee divided: Ayes 55: Noes 140.
Mr. Adair proposed another amendment, ** that the militia
should not be called out of their respective counties, unless ill
case of aftual invasion.'* It passed in the negative.
Mr. Hartley offered a clause *^ to impower the King tb cafl
the Parliament together in fourteen days.** It was* agreed t<>
without a division.
The House then went into a committee to consider of the
petition from Nova Scotia, wlien they came to the fpUoWlng
resolution, which was moved by lord North :
That the propositions contained in the address, petition^
and memorial or . the council and house of assembly of the ,
province of Nova Scotia, of granting to his Majesty itt per-
petuity, a duty of poundage ad valorem ^ upon all commodi-
ties imported into the said province, not being the produce of
the British dominions in Europe arid America (bay salt eif-
cepted) 5 the said duty to be under the disposition of Parlia-
ment ; is fit to be accepted ; and that the amount of the said
duty shall be eight pounds /^/^ cent, upon all such commodities.
Indemnity bill read a second time; and committed ; upoh'
which there was no debate.
Novefnber i5.
A petition of the gentlemen, clergy, clothiers, ma'ntlfae-
ttirers, and Others, inhabitants of the several towns of West-^
bury, Warminster, and Trowbridge, arid the lieighbourhoodf
thereof, in the county of Wilts, whose nam^s are thefetiiidgf'
Written, was presented to the House, and read ; setting, forth.
That the petitioners are greatly alarmed and sutprizfed, atf
finding certain persons, styling themselves the gentlemen,
clergy, clothiers> and other tradesmen, of the tbwfis and
neighbourhood of Bradford, Trowbridge; and Melkshaih,
in the county of Wilts, approach the Throne of our mosf
gracious Sovereign, and, under the pretence of testifying their
fcyalty and affeftion to his Majesty, boldly assert, in regard
tb the American prohibition of all commerce with his Ma-
jesty's European dpminions, " that they the petitioners find'
ilo melancholy effefts arising therefrom, or any unusual fai-
lure of demand for their manufaftures, or of emplojrmefif
Ar their poor 5 and, at this impoxUnX ^xiA ilaxmin^ crisb.
A. r77^ DEBATES; 353
wh^ so much depends on the deliberations and resolutions of
Parliamenti not less than the lives, liberties, and properties
of thousands of their fellow subjects, the petitioners, appre-
hending that the like misrepresentations may be conveyed to
the House, should hold themselves imjust to their own dearest
interests, and that of tfieif posterity, if they did not pub-
licly express their entire disapprobation of that malignant
and uncandid spirit which cati carry falshood to the throne ;
for the petition's assure the Hoiise, that the trade of that
part of the kingdom has most sensibly declined ever since the
commencement of the present unfortunate and unnatural con-
test with America ; and that employment for the poor has
prorportionably decreased in like manner, insomuch that it ap-
{lears* by authentic and undeniable evidence, that the poor
fates of the said towns have, during the last ten years, grown
to an enormous degree, and are now become an almost in-
supportable burthen to the inhabitants thereof ^ and that the
petitioD^^ do not presume to arraign the wisdom or justice of
. Parliament, in the measures which have hitherto been adopted
and pursued towards America, but, as intercession on behalf
of their afflicted brethren in the colonies, and in extenuation
jof the criminality with which they have been charged, they
beg leave to offer, that their resistance to the right of taxation
in the British parliament (from the claim to which, the pre-
sent unhappy differences have originated) has not, as they
conceive, proceeded from an impatience of subordination to
that high constitutional supremacy necessarily vested in the
mother-country, but in support of an usage, which an uniform
and uninterrupted enjoyment of more than 150 years had
given them reason to believe themselves entitled unto, and
which Great Britain herself had frequently called upon them
to exercise in their own provincial assemblies -, and the peti^^
tioners therefore, considering that the vital principle of trade
is peace and confidence, not war and distraiftion ; and com-
passionating the tumultuous and irregular exertion of that
rude yet manly spirit, whose features plainly mark its origin
of British ancestry, and which, though misguided in them»
FiUj through our common ancestors, produftive of those
blessings which make the peculiar boast of our happy consti-
tution^ and to which we owe the distinguished happihess that
the present august family sure at this day on th^ throne of these *
kingdoms ; and deprecating also the horrors of a civil war^
the event of which, being iti the hands of the Almighty,
may terminate in the dismimiberment of oui* empire, or in
A barren and ruinous conquest ; and therefore praying the
VoIm II. A a "^rtjovisft^
354 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
HousCi to tak€ the premises into their consideratioDf and, for
the sake of peace, for the sake of trade and commerce, and
for the general safety, concord, and prosperity of fhc whole
empire, fdt the sake of our holy religion, and the glory of
Almigl>ty God, who dwells in peace, to adopt such lenient
measures as may restore to this great kingdom and her colonies
that affe^onate intercourse with each other, which alone can
prevent the manifold evils with which they are now threatened,
and establish the national greatness on the. broad foimdation
of equal rule, and the general happiness of a free, loyal, and
united people. Ordered to lie upon the table.
Mr. Burhf who presented this petition, said, that the* sign-
ers were all men who manu&^red for themselves ; and he
was authorized to say that they possessed more than 500,000!.
of English property.
He wished the prayer of that petition<to be considered as the
exordium of what he had to say to theHduse. He complained,
of the difficulties which in civil wars lay upon moderate men,
'who advised lenient measures ; that their moderation was ab-
tributed to a want of zeal, and their fears for the public
safety, to a want of spirit ; that on this particular occasion
whatever they said to incline the House to lenity, was con-
strued into a countenance of rebellion ; and so many arts, and
so many menaces had been used, that if they had not been
opposed with a good share of firmness by the friends to the
peace of their country, all freedom of debate^ and indeed all
public deliberation, would have been pUt an end to.
He said, that for his part he was no way intimidated by all
these machinations from doing his duty -, and that nothing
.that could be threatened by those whose measures had brought
this country into so deplorable a situation, shi^uld hinder him
from using his best endeavours to deliver it from its distresses.
The first step for this purpose, was to get out of general
discourses, and vague sentiments, which he said had been one
of the main causes of our present troubles ; and to appreci-^
ate the value of the sfcveral plans that were, or might be pro*
posed, by an exaft detail of particulars.
He stated, that there were three plans afloat. First, sim-
ple war, in order to a perfciSt conquest. Second, a mixture of
war and treaty. * And thirdly, peace grounded on concession.
As to the first plan, that of mere war, he observedf that it
was proposed in two ways 5 the one iUreff by conquest, the
other indireB by distress. In either of these ways he
thought it his duty before h^ voted for a war, to know dis«
tinftty
A. 177 J* D fi B A T E Sv 355
tiftly thftt the means of carrying it on were adequate to the
end. It did not satisfy his conscience to say, that the re-
sources of this nation were great j he must sec them v. ^i'hat
before he could trust to those resources, on the credit of what
had been formerly done, he must find the situation of the
country tcr'^be what it formerly was.
He then examined what the ministers had laid before the
House as the means of carrying on the ensuing campaign.
That as to the forces which they had made the House ex-
pect from his Majesty's allies, all discourse of them had, for
some time, entirely subsided : he could, therefore, take cre-
dit for nothing more on that account, than a handful of
Hanoverians, which only answered the purpose of an imper^
fed security to some of our foreign garrisons. That our
national forces to be employed in America, by the account
on the table, amounted to no more than 26,000 men.
In this, credit was taken for the \ army now in America at
full numbers. He could net allow that estimate ; as sup-
posing that if the redudKon of the troops in future vaf
to be estimated by the past, they must be reduced to little ot
nothing, by the beginning of next campaign. That the
troops here are only upon paper, and the difiiculty of recruit-
ing was acknowledged. On the whole, he ^aw reason to
apprehend that we should not be very materially stronger at
the beginning of the next year, than we were at the begin-
ning of the last. He said, the probable number of troops,
whether national or foreign, weighed very little in his jtuig-
ment ; as he thought the circumstances of the country wore
such, as would disable them from effedling any thing like a
conquest of it.
That as to the predatory^ or war by distress (on the nature
of which he greatly enlarged) he observed, that it mig'^it irri-
tate a .people in the highest degree ; but such a war h^^d ne-
' ver yet induced any one people to receive the gov rnmetit of
another. That it was a kind of war adapted ro distn • 8 an
independent people, and not to coerce disobedien sulijedts.
But his great objedlion to it was, that it did not lead to a
speedy decision* The longer our distractions continued, the
greater chance there was for the interference of the Bourbon
powers, which in a long prptrafted wai:, be considered not
only as probable, but in a manner certJiin. That he was
very sure this country was utterly iuc ipable of carrying en
a war with America and these powers adting in con-
junction* . He iontered into a long and particular enun era*>
A a a tion
I
156 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
tion o( all the dangers and difHculties which muist attend
such a war.
He stated the condition of France at the beginning of this
century, and even within a few years ; and compared it
with her present situation. He observed, that from being the
Jirst, she was, with regard to effe£Hve military power, only the
Jljih state in Europe. That she was fallen below her former
rank, solely from the advantages we had obtained over her ;
and that if sbe could humble ///, she would certainly recover
her situation. There was now an opportunity for her making
herself, with very little hazard or difficulty, the first mari-
time power in the world ; and to invest herself with every
branch of trade, necessary to secure her in that pre-eminence.
He admitted, that at present there were circumstances (which
he mentioned) that might prevent her from availing herself
of this opportunity. But, he said, we must be mad to trust
such an interest as ours to suth a chance ; and that thev who
presumptuously trust to the extraordinary Providence of God,
Dy afting without prudence or foresight, deserve to be aban-
doned by his ordinary prote^on.
He then observed that, as he saw no probability of success
in the detail of any of the arrangemeiits that were proposed,
neither did he see any thing of authority to induce him to
believe that they would succeed ; not one military or na-val
officer having given an opinion in its favour ; and many of
the greatest in both services, having given their opinion di-
rectly against it. .
That as no man of miUtary experience had vouched for the
sufficiency of the force, so no man in the commissariate
would answer for its subsist en ce from the moment it left the
sea coast ; that therefore its subsistence and its operation were
become incompatible.
To the obje<^on, that at this rate the Americans might
always bring us to uiireasoii^blc terms, by the supposed im-
possibility of reducing them by force, he said that he could
not help the difficulties which ;5rose from nature and the con-
stitution of thiiigs ; that he could not make America nearer
to us than it is ; or a country of another nature • than what
God has made it. That people who cannot contrive to re-
concile their quarrels, must sutFer the evils that happen to a
divided nation. That he was of opinion, there was no
dishonour at all in any kind of amicable adjustment of do-
mestic quj:rrels ; and he would rather yield an hundred
points, when it was Englishmen that gave and received, than
a single
A. 1775-^ DEBATES. ' 357
a single point to a foreign nation ; and we were in such cir-
cumstances that we must yield to either one or the other.
After an examination of the merits of the first plan, that
of reducing the colonies to obedience by simple ivar, in order
to a perfeB conquest^ he entered into a discussion of the second,
viz. That of the mixture of war and treaty.
Among the great and manifest diversity of sentiments which
prevailed on the treasury-bench, he thought he could discern
that this plan had been the most generally adopted by minis-
ters, or by those who a^ted as such. That no light, how-
ever, had been let in upon the particulars of the scheme, ex-
cept in the speech from the throne. It was indeed very
little^ and that little very fallacious. One would be inclined
to think from that speech, that notliing had retarded the re-
storation of peace, but a doubt, whether those in arms might, .
upon laying them down, obtain a speedy pardon. However,
the faft was, no pardon had been ever applied for. If nothing
had been wanting to conclude the peace but such a power, the
commander in chief might be authorised to hold out mercy to
all those who should submit \ and then there would be no need
of the laborious, expensive, uncertain, and dilatory process
of a commi^^ion.
It was impossible to pass by the very exceptionable man-
ner in which this power of pardoning was to be dele-
gated : ** they shall hive authority (says the speech from
the throne) to grant general or particular pardons or indem-
nities, in such manner^ and to such persons^ as they shall^
think jit J* A shocking, arbitrary power, not to be trusted
to any persons, as giving encouragement to dangerous par^
tialitiesy and tending rather to distraft than to quiet the coun-
try. That the rule of pardon, when delegated to subjefts,
ought not to be their pleasure or displeasure^ but the com-
pliance or nori-compUance of the guilty, with certain fixed
conditions. Tiiat some such discretionary power as that
mentioned in the speech, seems to be given already, and to
have produced the mischiefs which might be expected from it.
For that General Gage had already, whether by himself, or
by order from ministers, made a very indiscreet use of it, by
offering mercy to those who were openly in arms, and aftually
besieging him in his station, and excluding from mercy
those who were five hundred miles from him,* and then sit-^
'^ ^ ^ ^^"8
* M(5ssrs. Hancock and Adams, who were excepted in the
general pardon offered by general Gage on submission, whils|
Ward, Putnam^ &c. besicgmg hiiji,wcyc not t^cc^\a^.
3J8 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177$.
ting in an assembly^ never declared by authority to be iU^al ^
an assembly, from which the ministers in the House of Com*
mens had at one time declared they were not without hopes of
proposals, which might lead to accommodation. On this
part of the speech from the throne he animadverted with great
severity.
He said he understood, that instead of the Americans wait-
ing tor pardons> they were to be persuaded by negociation to '
accept them. Therefore it would be necessary to examine
what body of men it was that administration proposed to
n^gociate with, and what the obje^s of the negociation were
to be.
That if he did not mistake the discourses of ministers, they
did not now propose to negociate with the present, or with
any other General Congress or meeting, but with the several
assemblies distin<Stly. In this scheme, he said, they knew
that they could not succeed. Because there w^ one principal
province, that of Massachusetts bay, whose assembly, under their
charter, was destroyed by a6t of Parliament. That no assembly
would sit in that province under the new constitution \ because
ir it should, the inhabitants must, as a preliminary, yield tlic
principal obje<fi: for which they had taken up arms ; and thus
turn the negociation against themselves, even before it should
be opened. That this province was the aftual seat of war,
as its sufferings had been the cause of the war itself. Treaty
must therefore stumble upon the threshold.
That besides this objection, (which was fundamental) a ne^
gociation with so many provinces, of such different consti**
tut ions, tempers, and opinions, never could come to an
end. In the mean time our hostile operations with their
wriole train of disasters, accidents, and ruinous expences,
would be continued, to the destruction of this country and of
that. That the hope of dividing the colonies, on which this
part of the plan was founded, and which was even avowed
as a reason for adopting it, would be the most unfortunate
thing that could happen -, as it would protraft the war, and
complicate its horrors and miseries, without a possibility of
ending it. It was, he said, a vain imagination, that a^y of
the colonies would take up arms in favour of ministry, fqr'thc
execution of any of their plans ; and that a part of the colo-
nies was suflicicat, at least to keep this war alive, until the
i;iterference of foreign powers shpuld render it utterly de-
structive. '
That with regard to the objedfs oi the treaty,-T-they must
be concesaions on the side of the colonies; or upo^ ours; or
A. i77Ji DEBATES. 359
upon both. ,That upon their side thcjr must be either jr^ri/-
lative recognitions oi rights upon as large a scale as tvejsad
claimed them ;- and this it was absolutely certain they never
would submit to ; or upon a lesser^ excluding taxation^ and its
consequences y and this they had submitted to already ; so that
there seemed to be no objed of the speculative kind, which
made it necessary to postpone peace by a protrafted negocia-.
tion.
That the other objeft of treaty might be a praBical recog-
nition of our right of taxing for a revenue 5 that this revenue
was to be either nominal or beneficial j. if only nominal^ it
amounted to nothing more than that speculative acknowledg-
ment of right, which we knew they would for ever refuse to
make. If beneficial and productive, it was to be either by
submitting to lord North's proposition, namely, that of forc-
ing them to furnish a contingent by authority of Parliament ;
or acieprding to their ancient mode, by a voluntary grant of
their own assemblies.
If the former, we know, said he, they have already rejeftcd
that proposition ; and never can submit to it, without abandon-
ing mat point, for the maintenance of which they have risked
their all. If it only requires, that they should resort to their
ancient mode of granting \yf their assemblies, they have de-
clared again and again, nrom the beginning of this contest to
the end, that they were willing to contribute according to
their ability, as estimated by themselves^ who were the best
judges of what their ability was. That ability would be les-
sened, if not totally be destroyed, by the continuance of those
troubles. This armed negociation for taxes would therefore
inevitably defeat its own purposes ; and prevent for ever the
possibility of raising any revenue, either by our autliority, or
by that of their own assemblies.
That if the ministers treated for a revenue, or for any other
purpose, they h^d but two securities for the performance of
the terms : either the same force which compelled these
terms 5 or the honour, sincerity, and good inclination of the '
people. If they could trust the people to keep the terms
without force, they might trust them to make them without
force. If nothing but force could hold them,' and that they
meant nothing but independency^ as the speech from the throne
asserted, then the House was to consider how a standing army
of 26,000 men, and 70 ships of war, could be constantly kept
up in America. A people meaning independency, will not mean
it the less, because they have, to avoid a present inconve-*
nieoce, submitted to treaty. That after ^1 our struggle's,
A a 4 our
36o P A R L I A M E K T A R Y A. 1775:
our hold on America, is, and must be, her good tnclinatioii«
If tills fails, all fails; and inre had better trust to the ho-r
nesty of the colonies, before we had ruined ourselveS| than
after; before we had irritated them, than after we had
alienated their afFc^lions for ever.
That the troops sent for the purpose oi forwarding^ would
certainly impede the negociation. That it was impossible
the provincials could be mad enough to lay down their arms^
whilst a great adveisc military power remained in th^ir coun-
try, without any assurance whatsoever of their obtaining any
one of the points fcr which they had contended. This would
not be to negociate, but to surrender at discretion. All the
frievances they had complained of, were contained in a£U of
arliam'^nt. Lord North had declared very truly, that no»
body could have power to negociate for the repeal of an aft
of Parliament.
But if t ^e colonies should incline to put any tonfidciicc in the
certain iniluence of ministry over Parliament, even that grand
coriiidehce muirt: fail them ; as they cannot tell whether the
same ministers will continue in power ; and that even at thi^
very time no two persons upon the treasury-bench were Cff
the s^me opinio a, on the cenduft to 'be held towards America.
Which of tiiose opinions would finally prevail, no man living^
could divine. That this uncertainty might continue the
armed negociation for several years, to the utter ruin of botli
countries. •
He gave many other equally strong reasons against the
scheme ; and concluded this part of his speech, by observing,
that although the mixed plan of war and negotiation could
answer no good end in future^ it might have a retrospeflive
operation, — to justify the ministers in the use of their forcible
proceed infTs. For force and concession going out together, if
peace should be the result, ministers would attribute the sue*
cess, not to the concession^ but to ths force. So that all thif
delay, bloodshed, and expence, was incurred merely to furnish
miinsters with an excuse in debate.
After going through the two fir^t plans, he spoke to- the
third (his ov/n) that of a concession previous to trettt^
He observed, that as he put no great trust in any pegpcia*
tion, and none at all in an armed negociation, his idea Was,
to have very little treaty -, and that little as short as possible.
The House was therefore at that time tp judge, >vhcther it
Was necessary to make any concession to the colonies: if it
should appear to theih that such concession was necessary^ he
daarly bi opinion, that they ought to inake it imtne^
' ' dvA.t.elYv
A. 1775^ DEBATES. 361
diately, and of their own free grace. This he thought of mbre
dignity with regard to themselves, and of much more efficacy
with regard to the quiet of the colonies, than the concession
upon treaty which had been proposed.
He said, that the first ground of treaty must be confidence >.
find that the colonies never could confide for the effedt of any
concession (as he had shewn in examining the foregoing plan)
|n a less assurance than that of Parliament itself.
He then shewed, by a variety of instances, coUefted from
the public proceedings during the last ten years, how neces^
eary it was that government should be aided by Parliament in
fe-.str.biishing that confidence which had been shaken by
4ho^c proceedings, and that some firm ground should be laid as
{a foundation for future peace.
He was of opinion, that this foundation of confidence was
become the more necessary, from the constitution of the pre-
sent ministry. That in no time or country, or under any
form of go v'omment, was the power of ministers suffered to
survive the success of their counsels; or the same men permitted
to inflame a dependent people to arms, and then to' appease
them by successions. That the duke of Alva would be tk
strange plenipotentiary to have sent, for makin:^ the conces^*
cessions which king Philip the Second proposed to the Ne-
therLmdt.. In concession, the credit of a state is saved by the
disgrace of a minister ; because it is his counsel alone that is
discredited. But when the same ministers do and undo, in
consequence of the resistance they meet, it is the nation itself
that submits. Besides, he allcdged tliat all treaty is more easy,
and fewer concessions are required by all men, when they have
a confidence in thost! they treat with.
He was convinced, that the mere removal of the offensive
afts would have given satisfaction in former times, and from
amicable hands. But now things are on another footing \
and if more concession is required, it is because injudicious
.coercion has made it necessary. That he had always wished
to preserve the legislative power of this kingdom entire in
every thing; and that it was with great grief he saw, that
even an odious and scarcely ever to be exercised part of it,
was to be abandoned. But when the maxims of public coun-
cils are not steady, it is necessary that laws should supply the
¥rant of prudence. That it was thus, and for this reason, that
Uoiits had been set to absolute power in all countries ; and
that power (though not absolute) had been preserved, not de«
Itroyed by such limitatipns.
^ • That
362 P ARLI AM.ENTAR-T A. 1775*
That we are now in a quarrel ; and in putting an end to
any quarrel^ it is necessary to look to its ort^ ; that the ori-
gin of this present difference had evidently been upon the sub-
jeft of taxation. That an arrangment of this question, either,
by enforceihent or concession^ was a preliminary essential to
peace. That the house ought to estimate the full value of the .
object to be conceded, before they agree to give it up. If 1
they were of opinion, that the taxation of America could re-;
pay them their expences, or compensate their risks, they ought
to pursue it. If, on the contrary, it was evident beyond all
contradiction, and so evident as to enforce reiterated acknow-
legments, that they never could enjoy a moment's quiet as.
long as that matter of contention continued — ^it was then alto«
gether as essential to the preservation of their own authority,
m all other points, as to the liberty of America and quiet of
the whole empire, to give it up, with such limitations in the
concessions, as the rights of sovereignty required.
That the Parliament of Great Britain were not the represent
tatvoey but (as Lord John Cavendish had said, some days before,
with great truth and propriety) the sovereign of A merica. That
the sovereignty was not in its nature an abstract idea of unity,
but was capable of great complexity and- infinite modifications^
according to the temper of those who are to be governed, and to
the circumstances ot things ; which being infinitely diversified,
government ought to be adapted to them, and to confcarm it-
self to the nature of things, and not to endeavour to force
them. That although taxation was inherent in the supreme
power of society, taken as an aggregate^ it did not folloyr that
it must reside in any particular power in that society. That
in the society of England, for instance, the King is the sove-
reign ; but the power of the purse is not in his hands ; and
this does not derogate from his power in those things, in
which our constitution has attributed power to him. If Par-
liament be the sovereign power of America, Parliament may,
by its own a£t, for wise purposes, put the local power of the
purse into other hands than its own, without disclaiming its
just prerogative in other particulars. •
That formerly, whatever their right might be to it, the
Kings of England were in the praftice of levying taxes by their
own authority, upon the people of England 5 they contend*
cd that the crown, being charged with the public defence,
must be furnished also with the means of providing for it.
That it would be absurd to commit a trust into the hands of
one person, and to leave the power of executing it to depend
upoa
A. 1775- • DEBATES; ^(1%.
tipon tlie will of another. T^^ therefore held, that this
power was inseparable from the crown j and in general they
xnad<: use of the verj arguments in favour of the King's inde-
feasible right to tax the people of England, that are now used
by the Parliament of England, to tax the people of America.
Notwithstanding all these arguments, one ot the greatest of our
Kings, by an express and positive a<St, cut off from the sove*
reign power this right of taxing.
This act wliich has been the foundation of the unity and
happiness of England since that time ; that is, the stat. 35
Edward I. called Statutum de tallagio non concedendo^ Mr. Burke'
made his pattern ; and from thence (if his plan should be
adopted) be hoped the same good efftfts in future. That
tJiiS pattern statute was absolutely silent about the right ; but
confined itsdf to giving satisfaction in future j and that it laid
down DO general prindples which might tend to aifect the
ro;a' pivrogative wxother particulars. 'Ihat in all human pro-
bability the preservation of the other branches of the prcnv
gativ^ was owing to the clear and abi^piLic i:un\nc;€r of this.
(** lie then moved that piC statuic «'t id-aidj jKfi cjiicedendo '
might be read,' )
He obi?trvtd, that this statute consisted of three capital
parts ; a renunciation of taxing, — a repeal of all statutes which
had been made upon a contrary principle, — and a general par-
don. — He then read his onvn Lilly and shewed its conformity to
the spirit of that aiSt, supposing Great-Britain to stand in the
place of the Sovereign, and America in that of the subjeft.
'iliat the circumstances are not indeed in every respeft exactly
parallel, but that they are sufficiently so to justify his fol-
lowing an exaii:pxc tr.at gave salisiacuon and security on the
subject of /fl;et J, kiud ieit sdi othei'' rights and powers whatsoever
exa£tiy upon the bottom on which they stood before that ar-
rangement h^d been madfe.
He then gave his reasons for not adopting the methods
which (though not proposed in the House) had been frequent-
ly suggested in cpnyersation by ^veyal friends and well wish-,
qrs to America.
And first he mentioned the proposal for repealing the ^^-
Moratory ^ct of 1766. On this occasion he entered into the
history of that ait, the reasons for making of it 5 and the
perfect acquiescence of the (:olonies under it 5 until by the rc-
fiewal of the scheme of aAual taxation their apprehensions
were roused, and they were taught to loc^ with suspicion and
lenroir upon the^miUmited power^of theBritish legislature. That
the
3<fV P A R i. lA WE * T A fi Y A. 17^5/
the fepcal (jf a declaratory aft was a thing imj^dsible ; for it •
v/ks nothing less, than to make the legislature ascuie itsetf of .
uttering propositions that were false, and making claims that
were groundless. That the disgrace of an English Parliament
could add nothing to the security of American liberty. — TTliat
oh the contrary our inconstancy would become a bad ground
of trust.^— That the declaratory aft had been- misrepresented,
as if it had been the cause of the taxation ; whereas the grand -
scheme of taxation had preceded the declaratory aft, and not
been the consequence of it. — ^That the aft has said nothing in
particular . oi taxation, but is an affirmation of the univer--
sality of the legislative power of Great Britain over the colo-
nies. — ^That' if this aft were repealed, it would be a denial of
legislative power, as extensive as the affirmation of it in the aft
* so repealed. — ^That he was averse to doing any thing upon
speculations of right. Because when Parliament made a po^
sztiut concession, the bounds of it were clear and precise ; but
when they made a concession founded in theory and abstract
principles^ the consequences of those princij^es were things
out of the power of any legislature to limit. That this bill
gave as efFeftual a security against future taxation as any de-
claration of right could possibly do \ and that it put American
liberty. in that point upon just SlS good a footing as English
liberty itself.
He next considered the proposition for repealing, all the afts
since 1 763. This he shewed to be impossible, without ruining
the whole system of the trade laws, and some of those laws also,
which are extremely beneiical to America. That all the laws
which leaned, upon the colonies, and were the cause or con-
sequence of the quarrel, were to be repealed in this bill,
which made provision Hicewise for authorising such a nego-
ciation as might tend to the settlement of all those lesser
matters to the mutual advantage of the parties. That thc:
congress did not require this sweeping rep^eal as a preliiriinary
to peace ; but that even if it had, he was for treating of peace
with and making concession to the colonies, and not receiving
Jaws from them. That he did not' conceive, that when men
come to treat of peace they must of course persevere in dc-^
manding every thing which they claimed in the height of
the quarrel. That the cause of the quarrel was taxation \
that being removed, the rest would not be difficult. For ha
denied that the desire of absolute independency was or could
be general in the colonies. It was so contrary to their clearest
interests, provided their liberties were preserved, that so far
fron^
A. 1775' O £ B A T E S. j^
from disbelieving them, when they denied such a de^ign^ he
could scarcely credit them if they should assert it. He then,
stated five or six capital fa£ts, to prove th^t indep^ndenqr
neither was or could be their objcft.
He said he was confident, both from -the nature of the
thing, and from information which did not u$^ to fail hin^,
that this bill would restore immediate peace; and as muiph
obedience as coiild be expedled after so rude a shock had been
^ivcn to government, and after so long a continuance of public
xi^isturbances. That in this bill, a basis was laid for such satU-
fai^on in the minds of all sober peofAe in America, as would
enable government to fix and settle^ if common prudence
were employed in its future construftion and management.
That in the first operation it would be the /ru^ means of Jiv^-
ing America, Not the dangerous and fallacious method of
dividing which had been proposed, and firom which nothing
but confusion could grow; not the division of province from
province, or the rich from the poor; or the landed fi-om- the
trading interest ; but the division of the peaceable firom the
faAious; the quiet from the ambitious; the friends tp the
unity of the empire, firom the projeftors of independence.
That this would put the standard of American liberty into
the handsT of the friends to Britifh government ; and when
this was done, there was no doubt, but that a sense of interest,
natural affection, the dread of the horrors jof war, and even
the love of fi-eedom itself, better secured by such an aft than
by any scheines of hazardous speculation, would leave tl^e
really faftious very few followers or companions.
He then strongly urged the necessity of granting peace to
our colonies on terms of freedom ; dilated largely on the un-
certainty (to say no worse) of obtaining it upon any othqr ;
and theuttiter impossibility ofpreserving.it in future, withoyt
setting the minds of the people at rest. He dwelt largely oiv
the mischieliB which we must suffer by the continuance of^this
quari^l. H e rested little on the consideration of trade and '
H[^venue ; he put that out of the question, as a matter that
would require a large discussion by ittelf ; but chiefly aimed
* at shewing, that in the progress of this business new powers
must be daily added to the crown ; so that in seeking to de-
stroy the freedom of others we may fail to obtain what we
pursue, and in the pursuit may lose our own liberty. On
this head he dwelt very largely, and concluded the whole
with a warm and earnest address to the consciences of the
members^ and nn exhortation not tQ trust to general good
- ' intention,
3«B PARLIAMENTARY A.ins-
jniae tm •^ — r — r— = if not further continued by
Parliamoit*
And whereas, in consequence of the late trouUes sereral
fli£b of Parliament have been made for the purpose of coercing
and restraining the colonies, of which an advantage has been
taken to represent the same, as if a design had been feroied to
deprive the peo{de of the said colonies of several rightSj bene*
fits, and advantages of nature, and of the British constitution^
^ vhich hath greatly encreased the discontents of the coloniesj
and fomented the troubles in America, In order, thereforc»
to quiet the minds of his Majesty's subje£b in America, and
to reclaim the disobedient by that lenity, which ought -to
: have the strongest operation on the minds of free subjeds,
be it enacted, that an a6t made in the seventh year of his
present Majesty, intituled " An a6t for granting certain du-
ties in the British colonies and plantations in America, for
allowing a drawback of the duties of customs upon the ex-
portation from this kingdom, of cofiee and cocoa nuts» of
the produce of the said colonies or plantations ; for discon*
tinning the drawbacks, payable on China earthem ware, ex-
ported to America; and for more effeftuaUy preventing the
clandestine running of goods in said colonies and planta-
tions." Also one other a6^, made in the fourteenth year of
the reign of his present Majesty, intituled *^ An aft to discon-
tinue in such manner, and for such time, as are therein men-
tioned, the landing and discharging, lading or shipping, of
goods, wares, and merchandize, at the town, and within
the harbout of Boston, in the province of Massachusetts Bay,
in North America." Also one other aft, made in the four-
teenth year of his present Majesty, intituled " An aft for
the impartial administration of justice in cases of persons
questioned for any afts done by them in the execution of the
laW; or for the suppression of riots and tumults in the province
of Massachusetts Bay, in New England." Also, one other
aft made in the fourteenth year of the reign of his present Ma-
jesty, intituled " An aft for the better regulating the go-
vernment of the province of the Massachusetts Bay,' in New
England," be hereby severally and respeftively repealed.
And the King's most excellent Majesty taking into his gra-
cious consideration the great troubles, discords, and wars, that
have of late been in some of his Majesty's colonies in America,
and that divers of his subjefts are, by occasion thereof, and
otherwise, fallen into, and become obnoxious to great pains and
penalties, out of a hearty and pious desire to put an end to all
suits smd controversies^ that by occasion of the late drstraftions
in
A* 1775* DEBATES". 369
in America^ have arisen, or may arise, between his subjefts 5
and to the intent, that no crime whatsoever, committed"
. against his Majesty, shall hereafter rise in judgment, or be*
brought in question, , against any of them,, to the least enda^-'
magemcnt ot them, cither in their lives^ liberties, or estates,.
or to the prejudice of tlieir reputations-; and to bury all s^ds
of future discords and remembrance of the fprmer, as well. in'
his own breast, as in the breasts. of his subjedte, one tcn^ar^ii
another ; is graciously pleased^ that it may be pnafted, and b'e^
it enabled, &:c. &c. . - . !
That all and all manner of treasons, misprisions of treasons,
murders, felonies, offences, crimes, contempts, and rnisde-
meanors, . counselled, , commanded j afted or doxie: jsince the
r ^— *• by any person .or .persons, in Avcxp-
Ticzy before" the . .■ .■;. v ■; — r-i .r — r- -by, virtue,., or
colour, of any command, power, authority^ c©mmisaioh, wai*-
rai^t or instruftion from liis Majesty,, or fromaiy other per-
son or persons, deriving or pretending to derive authority^
mediately or immediately, 'jSrom his Majesty, or of or frpxn
any assembly, council, g^ne^al court, convention, congress^. or
meeting, in any of his Majestyls colonies in America, canedj
or reputed, or taking on them the name of the assembly^ '
council, or general court, of any of his Majesty's colonies'^h
America, or of a general congress, or provincial congress';
or any other name or style whatsoever, .or by virtue or colour
of any writ, commission, ox: instru£lion of or from any per-
son or persons, reputed,, or taken to be, or claiming or ex-
ercising the power of comniauder in chief of the contineptal
army in America, or of any prpvincial army, or commander
of any army, or body of troops 'whatsoever, within any ot
his Majesty's colonies in America, by sea or land, or of any
ningistratc or oiiiccr, v.ithin any of the. said colonies, or by
any pretence, warrant, or comniand w^hatsoever, from them,
or any of them, or their, or any of their respeftive counsel or
counsels, or any member of such counsel or counsels, or from
any person or persons whatsoever, deriving, Or pretending to
derive authority from them, or any of them, be pardoned, re-
leased, indemnified, discharged, and^put in utter oblivion.
Antl that all and every the person and persons, afting, ad-
vising assisting, abetting, and counselling the same^ they,
their heirs, executors, and administrators, be, arid are here-
by pardoned, released, acquitted, indemnified, and discharged
from the same ; and of and from all pains of death, and other
pains, judgments, indiftments, informations, conviftions,
attainders, outlawries, peniilties, escheats, and forfeitures,
Vol. IL Bb -^^^
374 PARLIAMENTARY A- iyls.^
position) which waving that question, was moved solely on
the ground of expediency. TTie gentleman who moved it
had studiously avoided touching upon the right, and yet the
House had been now near seven' hours talking Upon a subjeftj.
which had nothing to do with the question of the day. He
was sorr)^ to find, that this discussion had been carried on
with mutual reproaches of parties, one against Imother. So
long, said hCi as the House will dwell upon this points and
so long as parties shall be, as they always, are on. this point.
more solicitous to discriminate their own principles, to defena
the reAitude and consistency of their particular line of con-
duct, in reprobation of that of others, wq never can come to
any real settlement of this matter.
It seems now, at length, high time to say something to the
matter proposed, and to the real question before you. He
said if he had risen earlier in the day to speak, he shoilld
bave foUqwed the honourable gentleman through the whole '
of his reasoning, as well as examined the proposition with
which he concluded : but now, after so long a debate, and at
so late an hour> he should confine himself siniply to the pro-
position.
In the stating of it, he begged the attention of the. gentle-
man, that if he mis-stated it, he might be correfted.
The honourable gentleman has stated this business as lying,
in three lineS/ of consideration, or three plans, on which it
might be taken up. The first was direft war ; the second, a .
mixture of war and negotiation ; and, thirdly, his plan of
concession, previous to all treaty ; that is, concessions made as
preliminaries to peace. The first part of his speech endeavours
to prove, that war was impradticable ; his second part was
taken up to shew, that the mixt plan,' as he calls it, must be
a series o^ fruitless perplexities. He says, it was necessary
to dispose of, as he expressed it, these two ideas first, that
he might make way for the third, his own plan. In his
manner of doing, he has justified the propriety of moving
the previous question ; because. Sir, if his plan cannot be
considered till the next plan, wKich he supposes to be the
minister's plan, is dispbsed of, we ought to know, Jirst^
what that plan is, and not be satisfied with his disposing of a
phantom of his own raising, which he supposes to be that plan.
The speech from the throne informs us, that there 13 some
plan of pacification : we may take assurance, that the mi^
nisters must lay that before us •, according therefore to the
honour.;blc gcntlcmaii'^ own method prescribed, we must •
dij^
A. 1775- DEBATES- 373
dispose of that before we can come to tlie consideration of his
plan. But if there was not that reason, from his own idea
of the iiiethod of proceeding, I cannot, but think it de-
cent to consider, first, that plan, of which the speech from
(he throne has given the first notice, and not to suffer it to be
anticipated by the intervention of any previous plan. If that
gentleman had on any occasion given noticfe that he would
offer to the House propositions on any particular subjc<il:, and
if after such notice, any other gentlemen should endeavour
to anticipate him, by getting a previous day, I would cer-
tainly, in such case, move the previous question on that gen-
tleman's motion, as I shall on this of the honourable gentle-
man to-day.
He says. Sir, such is the state of this American business,
that we must either change their sentiments by negotiation^
or subdue the rising spirit ; that we cannot subdue the spirit
which is up,- by war ; that we cannot change it by any nego-
tiation, which, while war lasts, we can enter into; wc
must therefore previously make concessions ; we must disavow
our declaration ; repeal our a£b ; sue for peace, and the Ame-
ricans will give it to us, on his plan ; we must previously re-
gain their confidence, ** by removing the ground of the diffe-
rence :" on the plan he proposes, we shall restore the former
unsuspcfting confidence of the colonies. This, Sir, is the
very question now before you. Let us then consider the con-
cessions which he proposes, and examine, by the best rule and
only judge in this case, experience, what cffeft these con-
cessions will have ? He says, tfiat as the Americtms did, on
the repeal of the stamp aft, resign themselves to their unsiis-
pcfting confidence, and were perfeftly satisfied, so will they
now, if his plan is adopted ; and he has read from the jour-
nals of the congress, their words as his authority : but
as he has not read all their words, not all the sentence, let us
see how the whole stands. " After the repeal of the stamp aEl^
say they, having again resigned ourselves to our ancient un-
suspicious affeftions for the parent state, and anxious to avoid
any controversy with her, in hopes of a fmiotirable alteration iti
sentiments and measures towards uSy *we did not press OUR OBr
JECTIONS, against the above mentioned statutes made sub^
sequent to that repeal." So far then it appears from having no
suspicions, they had objeftions; objeftions to afts passed subr^
sequefifto the repeal ; and these afts are specified in their re-
solves and proceedings to be afts of 1766 ; the declaratory aft,
ittid the a^t for granting duties in lieu of others repealed.
B b 3 ^\>.«v^
374 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
When, Sir, instead of alterations of sentiments and measures
towards them, one law was made, proposed by this gentle-
man's friends, declaring a power to bmd them in all cases
nvhat soever ; and one other, reciting, that although it was
proper to repeal certain rates and duties on account of their ifu-
expediency f yet it was necessary to grant others in lieu of them^
to his Majesty, his heirs and successors, to be paid into the
exchequer and reserved for the future disposal .01 Parliament ;
their content vanished, they relapsed into their suspicions,
they began to come forward with their objeclions, and the
New-York petition was the firss symptom of this. But, Sir,
they not only were not, in fadl, but they could not, on the >
principles from which they opposed our system, be content.
They obje^ed to all laws laying duties for the express pur-
pose of a revenue. The 6th Geo. III. c. 52, granted
duties to his Majesty, his heirs and successors, to be paid as
a revenue into the exchequer, and to be there at the disposal
of Parliament. Many laws prior to this period, gave and
granted duties, and appropriated them to the purpose of re-
venue. We have heard much of the aft of navigation, and
by some mistake, gentlemen under that idea refer to the z£k
of trade of the 25th Car. 11. The adl of navigation di-
refts that all the commerce of the colonies shall be carried on
in British shipping, and enumerates a certain number of ar-
ticles of the produce of the plantations which are to be brought
to England only. The aft of trade says, that there shall be
answered and paid to your Majesty, if bond shall not be first
. given to bring such commodities to England, the rates there
specified. Here we ,find the precise idea of duties laid as a
regulation of trade. But in the year 1 696, in king William's
reign, we find, for the first time, these duties converted in-
to a revenue 5 they are direfted to be paid whether bond be
fiven or uot. Revenue ofiicers, under the direftdon of the
iOrd High Treasurer, are established. If therefore we arc
to repeal all afts which grant duties as revenue, in 1696,
not in 1764, was the system changed. If therefore on that
principle we go back to 1763, we must of necessity go back
to 1672. But lest gentlemen should doubt whether duties
granted to his Majesty were ever before 1 764 appropriated
to revenue, let them refer to the civil list aft, of the first of
Geo. I. there they will find that the plantation duties, which
by the 25th Car. II. « were granted to his Majesty, his
" heirs and successors for ever, shall be brought and paid
into
A. 1775. DEBATES/ ^f;
nto the receipt of the exchequer, for the purposes in this aft
expressed/' namely, the forming a fund for the civil list.
But, Sir, before this time the tax of six .pence a month laid
iipon all American seamen, and always paid by them, was laid
in King William's time, for the purpose of augmenting the re*
venues of Greenwich HospitaL
The Americans require the repeal of the post-office aft, of
the 5th Geo. Ill ; that aft. Sir, laid no new duties, it made
new regulations; but it was the post-office aft of the loth of
Ann, which granted duties in America for the purpose of ena-
bling her Majesty to carry on the war.
It appears therefore, as they were not, so they could not, be
content with what was done in 1 766.
But to come to the precise propos|ition of this day. It is
a proposal of a bill formed on the resolutions which he moved
last year j and that proportion, although grounded first, on the
complaint which the Americans make of their grievances ;
second, on the declaration of their rights 5' and third on the
plan of the preliminaries which they throw out ; although
they require, as such preliminary, that we should go back to
1763, the proposition does not extend to a fiill remedy of their
grievances, and to their idea of their rights; it does not go even
to 1763, it goes only back to 1766. It is very ready to repeal
every aft, except the afts of the administration of that gen-
tleman's friends. The declaratory aft is not to be repealed.
The revenue aft of the 6th Geo. III. is not to be repealed.
Let us first see what the effect of this plan of concessions
made last year, was: it came last 'year in 'resolutions, it is
now formed into a bill. Why, Sir, since this plan was pro-
posed, the congress, reiterating their demand of the repeal
of all the afts of revenue and restriftion since 1763; spe-
cify particularly the declaratory law, and the revenue aft of
1766. After having recited fifteen heads of grievances,
Jiear what they say in their own words : •* But why should
we enun^erate our injuries in detail ? By one statute it is de-
clared that Parliament of right bind us in all cases whatsoe-
ver. What is to defend us against so enormous, so unlimit*
ted a power ?"
Upon the efFeft which this plan has had last year, we may
fairly put the issue of the efieft that may be expected from it
this year, especially when this year we find in the prelimina-'
ries of the congress, the removal of the troops as well as con-
cessions ; which does not make psrt of this gentleman's pl^^-
'Vy^hatever Acpcctations that gentleman may have of confir
B b 4 dcncc
376 P'A R L I A M E N T A R Y A-iyy^.
. dence from the Americansj in consequence of this plan,
he may be assumed, that while the iVmericans are very
willing to avail themselves of th? assistance of him and Im
friepds, other persons will hav^ their confidence. The gen-
. tleman and his friends bid as low as they can in conscience go ;
but others have bid lo--Ter : some are ready to go back to
.1763 y others think you should still go further. The Ame-
ricans expect that we should go further-, for see on what
ground they put themselves, when they ask only the repeal of
• the revenue and restriclive laws passed since 17^3. Take it
in their own words. /^ Resolved, That the congi'css do ccft^
fine themselves at present to the consideration of such rights as
have been infringed since the year 1763, postponing the further
consideration of the general state of American rights to a future
dayr •
From the first spring of this sad business, having been iar
modes pf policy in preference to measures offc^-ce ; \ Have al-
ways theught, and invariably said, that your system called f(w
revision and amendment, I have been against all partial con-
cession and repeals, I think it should be laid on some basis,
which is solid and may be permanent ; on such whereon the
liberties of America being fixed, the sovereignty of the em-
pire might be established. Repeals upon every partial com-
plaint, and concessions upon every clamour, is not the way ;
this would produce nothing but endless succession of quarrels, *
and patching up of those quarrels. Inducia^ helium^ pax
rursum. It should be taken up on some great and general
system. And such I now expeft, and shall therefore, al-
though I give no negative, move the previous question on any .
parts of a scheme moved on partial grounds, that of previous
concessions.
But to consider the purport of the bill itself. Although it
is grounded on the complaints of the American grievances,
and of the violation of their rights, it does not go to. the re*
dress and remedy. They complain of laws, laying duties,
and granting them for the express purpose of revalue 5 yet it
goes ooly back to the year 1 766. You have seen the remedy
to be real and efficient must cari-y us back to 1672. They
complain of the admiralty jurisdicdon : now that. Sir, is as
old as the a£t of navigation. By that acr, ships navigated
contrary to law were to be seized, mi.:ht be brought to the
coiu-t of admiralty in England, on the ex^Tcss principle, that
th.'ve should he na party juries. For the case, and not the ag-
grieving of the subject, courts of admiralty weA afterwards
- establislied
A. 1775. DEBATES. 377
established in the colonies, and all this system stood established
before the period of 1 764. To my argument it is nothing
how far this is right or wrong, grievous or otherwise : but the
Americans complain of it as a grievance ; ai\d if the bill which
is to redress their grievance, and to concede to their com-
plaints, must go to the bottom ; if it means or hopes to gain
their confidence — this bill does not go far enough — ^therc are
others who are willing to go further.
On this ground, he said, that the present proposition would
not produce the effo^l it proposed ; that it was but a part
of a system proposed as an expedient, or rather an experi-
inent to a partial purpose. On the assurance that this busi-
ngs of Aiiierica would be now taken up on some great and
general system in the whole, and the speech had announced
some plan, which from the method adopted by the honour-
able gentleman should be disposed 01 firsts he moved the pre-
vious question.
Lord George Germaine said, as he had held but one conduft
in this American business ; as he had been direct and explicit
in that conduft, he now entered into office on the same prin-
ciples, on the same line of condu<St, and he hoped he should be
always found decisive, direct, and firm in it.
On the point of the legislative authority of this country, he
should always maintain that sovereignty which was established
and founded on the constitution. On the point of taxation,
although he should never concede the right, he should nevef
objeft tot-he witholding the exercise of it, if other modes
could be adopted. But if we are to have no peace, unless we
give up the right, the contest is brought to a fair issue 5 we
are equal to thfe contest ; our internal resources are great ; and
we can never despair of that assistance which we may want.
Gentlemen call for answers to several questions; I stand
forth, as far as my judgment can, and my advice goes, to
give an answer. Are we, say some gentlemen, to give up -
taxation ? Are we to have no American revenue ? I do Hope
we shall ; I trust we shall draw a revenue from America.
Whether that shall be by the exercise of our right of taxation,
or whether by any other mode, I do not think' material. If
the Americans, willing to join their aid to the common supply,
and willing to share our common burthens with us, can pro-
pose any mode which will make them easy, which will remove
their fears and Jealousies, I shall be ready to adopt it. I
wish they wn^e in the situatioit of the year 1763, if the gt>i
vernmeht of this country was so -likewise* If our present
-jT^ PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
system is wrong, let us avow it ; consider and reftify it.
They have a right to every liberty which they can enjoy,
consistent with the sovereignty and supremacy of this country.
Let them be happy. Nobody can wish them more so than I
.do. But I have never changed my opinion as to the legisla^
tive supremacy of this country. What I have always held^ I
now stand in office to maintain.
To the questions; What force is necessary? What do
you mean to send ? I answer, that the officers serving on the
spot, those specially commanding, are the proper judges.
What they, upon a ftdl state of the service, think nec^sary^
as far as my advice can go, shall be sent ; not to be insylted.
Such forces as arc necessary to restore^ maintain, and esta»>
Wish the power of this country in America, will not be
wanting.
. Much has been said about the plan of sending commission.-
crs. My idea of that measure is, that they should not only .
have powers to pardon, but to inquire into grievances ; and
if the Americans, retinming to a sense of their duty, should
offer terms (not with arms in their hands) they should be em*-
powered to consider, and on their submission, to take off
those penal restriftions under which, from the nature of their
conduft, the Americans now lie. If, by opening a door to re-
treat, the crown tries to induce them to lay down their arms,
what can it do more. If they persist in their appeal to force,
the force of the country must be exerted. The spirit of thi?
country will go along with me in that idea, to suppress, to
crush such rebellious resistance.
As to the gentleman's proposition, I think it has been fully
proved, that it would not answer the expectation of those in-
America, whose confidence he meant to gain ; that it does
not go so far as they expelled ; nor so far as some here would
go ; and previous concessions, as gratuitous preliminaries,
whetlier accepted or not, without any thing offered on their
part, would put us on worse ground, and remove the matter
still further from the conciliation he proposes. I am therefore
ready to give my negative to it, or rather, to join in the pre-
vious question.
Mr. Fox for the morion, and very severe upon administra^
tjon. It was here this gentleman, with infinite wit and
readiness, gave a description of the treasury-bench, begin-,
ning with Mr. Ellis, and ending with Mr. Cornwall, by a singly
epithet, happily marking the charafters of each of th^n\,
with fine satire, and without the least breach of deporum.
The
A. 1775. DEBATES. 379
The Solicitor General [Mr. Wedderbumc] in answer tQ
Mr. Fox, defended administration in a fine vein o£ oratory.
And in answer to an observation of Mr. Burke upon the con-
duft of Demosthenes, he entered upon classical ground, and
with consummate eloquence and accuracy of recolledHon, des-
canted upon the history of that period, with allusion to the
present times. His speech was a restoration to ^e House ;
and though it was three o'clock in the morning, awakened
the attention of every man in it.
General Conway replied to Mr. Wedderburne.
Mr. Graves seconded the.motion for the previous question.
Lord North, I declare, that if I thought the motion would
procure that conciliation which the honourable gentleman
who made it has held out, I should be staggered. But it
has appeared that this line of concession will not procure it ;
and it has been clearly marked to you, that this line is not
sufficient. Therefore were I of opinion with the honourable
• gentleman [Mr Burke] as to repealing all the afts he men-
tions, as I am as to some of them, these concessions would
not procure the end he proposes, but put us upon still
worse ground, and remove us farther from any conciliation
this country can agree to, I think, for instance, that those
penal and restriftive afe which have. been indefinite as to the
term of their operation should be repealed, and the matter
and purport of them thrown into one general aft, framed to
be enforced during the continuance of the war. The ho-
nourable gentleman [Mr. Burke] has in his bill proposed to
empower the King to call a congress in America. He has
that power ; has done it before, and may do it at any time.
Besides^ the proposed bill confines the power of the crown to
treat only with the congress, therefore his Majesty can treat
with nobody else, if there were any persons disposed to oflfer
terms of submission,
A little before four o'clock in the morning the previous
question was put " that the question be now put." The
House divided, ayes 105 ; noes 2io.
November 17.
Nothing material.
Adjourned to the 20th.
November 20.
Lord North moved, that leav be given to bring in a bill,
to prohibit all trade and intercourse with the colonies of New
Hampshire, Massachusetts bay, Rhode Island, Connefticut,
New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, the three lower coun-
ties
3go PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775^.
tics on Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolinat,.
Sotrth Carolina, and Georgia, during the continuance of the
present rebellion within the said colonies respeftivelyj for re-
pealing an a£l:, * made in the 14th year of the reign of his
present Majesty, to discontinue the landing and discharging^
lading or shipping, of goods, wares, and merchandize, at the
town aind within the harbour and^ Boston, in the province of
Massachusetts Bay, and also two afts,f made in the last
session of Parliament,. for restraining the trade and commerce
of the colonies in the said afts respccHvely mentioned ; amd
to enable his Majesty to appoint commissioners, and to issue
proclamations, in the cases, and for the purposes, therein to
be mentioned. He explained the necessity of restraining the
Americans from all trade during the present rebellion, and.
the justice there would be in immediately taking off the re-
straint from such colony wherein it might cease ; that the
Boston port aft, and the afts passed last year, being framed
upon other grounds and for other purposes, would stand in
the way of this operation 5 that the restraining bills were civil
coercions against civil crimes; but we being now at war, the
provisions were incapable, and other provisions were now.
necessary : those provisions he now proposed were such as
would be made use of in case of war with any country in the
world ; but they were framed under such provisos as might
open the door of peace upon its first approach. That if we
were ready also to repeal the charter bills, yet he could not
do it while they denied the right that wc had to make them ;
that as to the bill for the administration of justice there was
no need to repeal that, because the country being in aftual
war,* martial law took place, and there were no courts of
justice in which it could operate : it was a temporary bill for
three years, two of which are expired ; and it wou}^ cease of
itself. That he should also be ready to repeal the tea duty
on the same grounds, that he would suspend every exercise of
the right of taxation, if the colonies themselves would point
out any mode by which they would bear their share of the
burden and give their aid to the common defence. The pur-
port of the clause respc6ling the commissions, had been very
well explained the other day by a noble lord [Lord George
Germaine] that it meant besides the granting of pardons, that
* The Boston port aft. ,
f The fishery and restraining afts.
they
A-tJ7S- D E BrA T E S- 381
they fliouldj enquire into any matter of change of circum-
ftances in which the colonies wcr« now, from the time they
were when the laws were made ; iiF there were any matter oi
real grievance or opprcffion that could be remedied to their bc^.
nefit or to the common intereft, that they were to have the
power of judging whether any part or a whole colony were
returned to mat .state of obedience, that they might declare
that colony or part to be in peace, u^on which the restriddon*
in the present bill were so formed a& to cease. He acquainted
the House, he £ound from what he said the other nighty imder
a state of fatigue and indispositioni had led people to conceive
he was so far tired out with this business, that his administm-
tion was drawing to a period ; he therefore begged to repqat
what he always had said, how happy he should be to decline
the arduous task to which he might, perhaps, in point of abi->
lities, be imequal ; yet in poiiit of good intentions he had no
other end in view, no not fot a moment in any time, but the
public service ; meaning at all times to condud it with the
least burden to the pubUc ; on those occasions where severitj
was necessary, to alleviate that, as much as the commoji
safety would pei:mit ;, and to withold it, whenever the public
jsafety did not absolutely require it. That there were two
grounds, upon which every minister ought to stand : the first
was, that the King had an undoubted right of naming his
o\m servants: the second was, which, formed the happine^is
of this country, that if the people by their representative«
did really disapprove the measures 01 any minister, to that
degree that tlicy would not go along with him, the I^ng,
however he nught approve such minister, could not carry on
hk business by Um, and must part with him. That this bo-r
siness of quarrel with the colonies about taxation, was began
and prepared for him before he engaged in it as a minister 5
tlut he took it up,, not wlicn it was a question whether it wa»
right to tax. the colonies or not, but when they disputed our
having any such right, and at a time when this country was
determined not to give it up : as he engaged when this dispute
was adtually l^gtm, he was Ixjund to see it through : and i£,
the colonies, by appealing to anus had made war the medium,
although peace was the only point he ever retained in his
view, he must pursue it through that medium : being tlius
engaged, he did declare, that unless the King dismissed him,
or a majority of the House, disapproving his condu^ desdred
his dismission, he would not give up the conduct of this busir
jiiess to any body el^. As to the means of condu^^ng th^
38i PARLIAMtNTAkT A. 177J
War, he declared there never was any idea of raising or em-
ploying the negroes or the Indians, until- the Americans them<i<
iselves had £rst applied to them : that general Carleton did
then apply to them ; and even theh, it was only for the de^
fence or his own province. Ais to the events 0f the war,
things wore a much better aspcft at present, thaii a little
while ago : that now Halifax was absoliitdjr safe j that there
were indeed two expeditions against Canada, But he did
hope that Canada would not fall into the h^ds bf the rebels.
He would almost venture to say th^t Qtiebec Was safe ^ but he
begged the House would not understand him as promising
that : his own opinion was, that it would not fall into the
hands of the rebels.
Mr. Fox. This proposition is cutting off and destroying
aH trade with America. If the noble Lord's other measures
had hot done it, this would effeftually. Though they had
not at present the manufafturers at their door, he would pro^
phesy, they would have them at their door next year. The
true intention of this bill is, to break up the manufacturers,
who, through want of subsistence, will be obliged to enlist,
and thus the noble Lord thinks he shall recruit that army
which wbuld not otherwise be recruited. That as the noble
Lord had now proposed repealing three oppressive afts, h©
begged to ask him, as a man of honour and as a gentleman,
whether he did not now wish that he had adopted the opinion
of the noble duke [the Duke of Grafton] who was first lord
of the treasury, when the repeal of the tea duty was moved
in that House, and supported it ? He repeated, there were
differences of opinions amongst persons high in office at that
time ? and he asked the noble lord [Lord North] whether he
did not now wish he had been of opinion with those who were
for repealing that duty, because they saw and therefore wished
to avoid that chain of misfortunes, which the continuance
of it has drawn after it ? — l^'his proposition of peace he said,
^ like that of last year, was meant' to lead on this country
under a delusion of flattering hopes of peace ; and to endea*
vour to deceive, which it would not do, the Americans, that
this country wished for a peace of the description which
the noble Lord held out, or were unanimously determined
to prosecute the war, if such peace could jiot be had. The
whole was insidious, and therefore could have no other effeft
upon the Americans than to destroy their confidence in go- .
vemment, if any yet remained. If the Americans should
I^eUcve the spirit of this country was unanimous against their
TV^htSt
A- 1775- DEBATES. 363
rights, they had nothing to do but prepare immediately for
war, as their only defence against a system of despotism*
That this proposition therefore was a declaration of perpetual
War ; and if he gave his vote for it, he must consider him-
self as giving his vote for a declaration of war. However,
as he had always said that he . would support any measure
of reconciliation, he should go so far with the noble Lord, as
the repeal of the three adls he mentioned. Therefore he
moved the following amendment. To leave out the words
** To prohibit all trade and intercourse with the colonies,
&c." to the word " rcspeftively: and to leave out the
words, ** And to enable his Majesty to appoint commis-
sioners, &c.*' to the end.
Sir George Hay. The question was not now, either of a de-
claration of war, or of the mode of condu6ting It, but how
to get out of the war. This was the first bill of vigour that
had been offered, therefore he should be heaiitily for it. He
then said many things upon doftrines of resistance, according
to the principles of the Revolution ; in particular, that if any
unlawful power was exerted, or even any lawfiil power ex-
erted in an arbitrary manner, against the constitution, those
who had a right to defend and maintain that constitution,
had a right to resist it ; but that there had been in this case,
no violation of the constitution; either by the exercise of an
unlawful power, or by the exertion of any lawful power in
an arbitrary way. He owned that many of the laws, form-
ed for the state of the colonies in their infancy,, might be bur-
densome, and the occasion of grievances, by being inapplicable
to their present state ; that those laws ought to be revised :
that even the a<Sh of trade might be somewhat relaxed. If
the monopoly of trade cannot be maintained or secured, the
colonies might be encouraged in all' manufaftures not inju-
rious to this country, and tliey might be obliged or com-
pelled to take from us our mannmfturcs: but these were
matters for a time of peace, not for the present, when we
are engaged in a question of power ; until that was settled,
.it was nonsense to talk of our making regulations, the right
of making which was disputed, and the power of carrying
them into execution opposed by arms. His idea, therefore,
was, that at present the Americans are in adlual rebellion \
but if other gentlemen are of opinion that they are in a state
.of resistance which they justify, they are called upon to take
Bp their defence, jiot by speeches in this Hpuse, but by
arms:
384 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775-
arms : Why don't they go and join them i that would be the
true mode.
Lord Hinve. He did not know aiiy struggle an officer could
have> ser\'ing on the present occasion, to painfid as that be-
tween his duty as an officer and his duty as a man. How-
ever he suSercd, if commanded, his decided duty was to
serve. He did apprehend that all this an honourable rela-
tion of his had felt : it was what he himself £sk very sensi-
blv ^ and if it was left to his choice, he certainly should de«
chne to serve.
' Mr. Fax got up, to £x his Lordship to the point> with
precision.
Lord Howe to explain. Should certainly decline to serve^
from the sense he had of the right and importance of such a
trust : but if he was commanded, it was his duty to obey^
and he could not refuse to serve.
Lord Frederick CampbelL When those gentlemen who
repealed the stamp-a£k came into that measure, they did not
venture to do it without bringing in the declaratory bill, tp
mark the sovereignty of this country, and to shew that they
did not give it up. No man or party now in the kingdom
dared to repeal the declaratory adi j even a great minister,
whose measure the repeal was, when he quoted Prior-
Be to her faults a little blind.
Be to her virtues very kind ;
every body knows the next line, which he did not quote.
Let all her ways be unconfin'd.
If thr.t great minister did not venture to hold that language^
he might assert, no other man in this country would*
General C:nix-ay, Thinking as he did, that the interest
of this country depended upon an union with America, and
that the union would remain so long as that interest was
rightly pursued, he did not see the necessity of the declara-
tory law : he thought it right that tlie supremacy of this
country should be established to all points which were neces-
sary, but not to taxation : he had hoped and flattered him-
self, that t]\e idea of taxation had been wholly given up by
every body , but since a noble I^ord liad come into office, it
seemed as if the dispute on that question was revived. He
thought the fire had been smothered, but since- that noble
Lord cxune into office, he had uncovered the ashes and blown
the flame afresh. Our supremacy, he said, over the colo-^
nies, is of the essence of our relation to them: but, may I'
not make an exception ? There is no law without an excep-
tion.
A. l^^Si E B A t E S. Sg3
tion. The Houfe of Lords and the Houfc of Commons,
have each of them their rights, which are generally und^r-
ftood: but if we were to go into difputes, with all the pre*
judices of each Houfe refpe£ling power, we could do no
bufinefs, and there would be an end of Parliament. For
argument*s fake, therefore, I may allow, that our right of
taxation is a clear and diftin£): right, which in my confcience
I believe to be no right ; yet, would it be for the intefeft
and good of this country to go to war about exerting it? As
to the forces of the two countries; fpeaking of our ovi^n,
however high our difcipline might be fuppofed to be, yet
compared with many other countries, it would be found
very inferior ; but yet that the courage and fpirit of our
people fupplied that defeS. That the forces of America, .
though certainly inferior to ours in difcipline, yet they were
already much beyond any thing we had any idea of, and
would in the courfe of war be trained and as well difciplined
as ours. In point of courage, he could make no diflindion
wherever a Briton dwelt : but this every body muft remark,
that there was a certain fpring and zeal, which an animation
for liberty always gave, beyond any other caufe. - Suppofihg
each party to have an army of 50,000 men, he thought the
Americans would prove a match for the Britifli troops, as
they contended upon principle for liberty, which he thought
would render them fuperior to our advantage from difcipline.
As to that part of the propofcd bill which related to the
commiffioners, he could fay little, as nothing had been ex*
plained ; only that fo far as his opinion and vote went, he
would never triift any power to any commiffioners whatfo*
ever, without adiftinft and direft line laid down in Parlia-
ment. The fubjaft of military obedience having been
ftarted, it might, in the eyes of fome, look like an unworthy
fhrinking from the queftion, if he did not fay a few words to
it. He did not imagine there could be any (Iruggle in the
mind of a military man fo dreadful, as any doubts of this
kind. There was a gteat difference between a foreign
war, where the whole community was involved, and a do-
meftic war on point of civil contention, wherein the com«
munity was divided. In the fiift cafe, no officer ought to
Call in queftion the juftice of his country: in the latter, a
military man, before he drew his fword againft his fellow-
fubjefts, ought to alkhimfelf, whether the caufe was j.ufl: or
no? He quoted the ftory of the m^ffacre of St. Bartholomew,
and the anfwer of the Count de Torden, and concluded with,
that if he thaught of this cafe as de Toc<ka did o^^Viax^ '^i^
386 PARLIAMENTARY A. 17754
emoluments, naf the facrifice of what people ia hi& iituation
>eid deareft, their honour, all this would be nothing in the
fcale with his coofcience : he never could dcaw bis fword
in the caufe.
The Attorney General [Mr, Tharlow.} I^t the honour*
able gentleman jullify his confcience to himfelf, but not hold
it out as a point of do£trine to be taken up in a certain quar-
ter and line of fervice, where his opinions might be iuppofed
to have very great influence ; for if thofe opinions were once
cftablifhed.as matter of doftrine, they muft neceflarily go
to a diiTolution of all government. Turning to Mr. -Burke's
late proportion, he faid, however amufing and ingenious it
was, it drew to no conclufion, and though called a propofi*
tion, ended in no propofition at all: it talked of conciliation
and union between Great Britain and her colonies, without
flating, in any one inftance, the relation in which they do
* or ought to ftand. He gave an account of what he called
the general fpirit of oppoiition, in which he faid, the oppo*
fition having got beyond all line of reafoning, they did ncK*
thing but fcoW at arguments which they could not refute.
He. now clearly underftood the noble Lord's [Lord North}
propofition, and he approved of it, becaufe it retained tha
habitual exercife of taxation, and left an opening jto Ame-
rica, of a permiifion to raife her Ihare of fuppiy towards
the common defence, by granting it in her own amemblieSt
and giving it in her own way. On this ground he was wiU
ling to coincide, not. only in a plan, but in any thing that
might give a ground for a conciliation with AmeHca ;. yet
he thought, the only fure and permanent ground would be
to define the relation between the mother country and her
colonies. He added, that as Attorney General, he had a
right, by writ of fcire facias^ to let afide every charter in
America: but that in our prefent fituation fuch a procefs
would be juftly the objeft of ridicule, for the cond<i£t o£
America was not a matter for judicial but Parliamentary .^i«
madverlion.
Mr. Burke. The plan of this year is to enforce the con-
ciliatory motion of laft year by military execution. To the
charge of not having defined the relation between Great
Britain and her colonies, he replied, that the fiUy, wicked
attempt to define it, had been the firft and continued caufe.
of their prefent difunion.
General Conway^ to explain; on points wherein bis cha-
ra(tGri his duty to his Majefly, and the intereft of (he piib^
A. nIB. DEBATE, S. 387
lie might be involved, he hoped the Houfe would indulge
him to explain himfeif. He very feldom recollcdted the
words he had ufed in the heat of argument, and could not
therefore recollea what might have been his words on this
occafion : it was a peculiar part of his charader, upon any
point in which. he was warm and interefted) as he always
was on this hufinefs of America. He might probably ufe
firong expreffions, which went beyoad the line of his deli-
berate opinion ; if he faid any thing which carried a fenfe
fuch as that which had been imputed to him by the learned
gentleman, [the Attorney General] he did not mean it; and
what he meant to fay, was, that if he thought the caufe pofi-
tively and dircftly unjuft, it might fo pre& upon his con-
fcience, that he might decline ferving in it.
Governor Johnftone faid, he would not make any apo-
logy to the Houfe for the late hour of the night ; for let the
hour be. what it would, the fubjeft was of that importance,
no hour could be too late for the mature and deliberate con«>
fideration of it I will now tell you as a failor, that you
will deftroy the Weft India trade by this barring up of the
ports of North America ; and if you fhould not do that, you
will at leaft double the infurance on that commerce and
navigation ; you will ftarve the iflands, and uniting them in
the fame caufe with North America, drive them to revolt
alfo. In anfwer to Sir George Hay, he faid, that adminif-
tration had both ufed unlawful power, andlnwful power, ar-
bitrarily. Great Britain is the only government in the
world which has found but the art of carrying power to the
diftant parts of the empire, by fatisfying the people that they
are in fecurity againft oppreffion. You cannot govern the
colonies without carrying this power to the fpot ; thatinftead
of fending it with the neceflary and conftitutional checks,
yop are going to fend out a commiilion. to exercife, not the
conftitutional, but the didatorial power of the crown.
The Houfe divided upoir the amendment. For it 64 ;
againft it 192.
November 21.
No bufinefs. Not members fufficient to ballot for a com-
mittee to try a controverted eledion.
November 22.
Mr. iR?« moved, that there be laid before tliis Houfe aa
account of tlie expences of the ftaff, . hofpitals, extraordinaf
ries, and all military contiz^encieswtiatfoever, of the army
in America, from AuguftiT?3 to Acmtft fJ^S, incluiive.
He had drawn up the motion ia th«fe w<»i4|^ b^^wxfc VC^
3W PARLIAMENTARY A. HT*^
,would lay open an afioni(hing fcene of minifterial deluiioil
held out by the pretended eftimate laid before the Houfe a
. few days ago. It would bring the ftaff into the full glare af
day » which has been hitherto artfully held back; it would
fhew, that the expence of the ordnanbe this year had ex*
ceeded any one of the duke of Marlborough's campaign»»
while in tlie midft of repeated viftories, he was immorta-
lizing the Britifh name ^ and it would convince the greateft
court iniidels of the temerity of the minifler, who, to the
very laft day of the feffion, infifted and declared, that the mi-
litary fcrvice, in every branch, and tinder every defcriptioi^
was amply provided for; that all his arrangements
were made; and who thus duft, in the bare article of
the ordnance alone, incur a debt of upwards of 24-0,0001.
He faid it would be a farce to fit any longer in that houfe, if
accounts of this nature were refufed : that the motion was
parliamentary; that it would convey no frfcret to the
enemy ; and within his own knowledge or reading, he
never heard of an inftance where fuch inmrmations were de-
nied, unlefs in inftances where it was impoflible to comply
with them; fuch as the accounts defired not having been
received, or officially made up. Aware of this, he would
be perfedly fatisfied with copies of thofe already come to
hand, or of grofs computations made by eflimate, and wait
with pleafure for the remainder, till the rainiftry could
venture to face the public, andanenfured majority, with the
diigraceful contents.
Lord North faid, that part of the accounts were on the
table ; and that the honourable gentleman would have them
all regularly at the proper feafon.
Mr. Jenkinfon faid, part of the accounts now called for,
come in under the head of fervices incurred and not -pro-
vided for by Parliament ; and that the other part of the
^account would, come when the returns were received from
America.
Rt. hon. T. Town/hendidiA^ it was very difficult to colIeQ the
true meaning of what had fallen from the noble tord on the
treafury-bench, and his confidential friend and powerful fup-
porter who fpokelaft. He thought the honourable gentleman
who made the motion had, by his candour and previous ex-
planation, prccludedthem from reforting to fuch pitiful cva-
fions, and manifeft impofition. The honourable gentleman
defired no more intelligence than what might be eafily ob-
tained, than what they had in their a£tual pofiTeffion. Bat
IfAer Tcrjr Jpgicaily, at leaft Ntt^ YkMnvout^vaflr^ tell him.
A. ins. DEBATES. M9
** Wt have not all the information you want in our power,
therefore we are refoived you Ihall have none,*'*
Mr. Hartley fhewed the propriety of the ineafure on thfe
ground of parliamentary uiage, and predi£led that admini*
ftration would fufFer more in the eyes of the public by
withholding the information than by difcloiing it. It was
impodible but the nation, at iaft, muft be convinced that
their works could not bear the light, when they kept every
thing in profound darknefs.
Mr. Burke prefled the neceffity of the motion, as K might
be the means of informing the Houfe of the probable ex-
pences of the next campaign, formed on the comparative
icale, of the proportionate expence of an army of 8500^
and 25600 men, which would be the refpedive military
armaments of the years 1775 and 1776.
Sir George Savtie obferved, he had fat in fome very com*
pliant dutiful Parliaments ; but if the minifter was able, by
his magic influence,' to put a negative upon this motion,
the prefent would be one of the moft polite and well-bred,
he would not fay ilavifli, fordid, and corrupt, he had ever
the honour to fit m. However, he did not think that either
the managers or the managed a^ed with fufficient dexte-
rity and addrefs, for they both had already a falvo for every
thing. America is to be conquered ; America is to be
taxed; the expence will be great; but what of that? We
fhall not only conquer thefe rebels, but we fhall likewife
compel them to pay our debts, and bear our burdens.
What occaiion then for concealing an expence, which will
be rapid, at the rate of 1000 per cent. ? What occafion to
fend the poor country gentlemen, with their fingers in their
mouthy, or tongue-tied, down to their counties or boroughs,
when they might at once be permitted to tell the truth.
The iaft campaign coil one million and a half ; this will
coft five ; but then we fhall, in the end, be able to make
America pay fifty. This would be a£ting like wife and
firm miniuers. It would be arming the country gentlemea
with fads ; they love good, round, ftrong, uncontradicted
ailertions ; and if by next November our afiairs ihould
grow worfe, and that we fhould be obliged to tell our con*
nituents that the army and the land-tax muft be doubled-^—
What of that again ? Why, let the minifters, as they rife
in their demands, improve in their wifdom and firmnefs,
and inftruA the countiy gentlemen to tell their conftituents
at Chriftmas 1776, as they muft tell them at ChrHtmas
1775, that adminiftration was deceived.
$9^. PARLIAMENTARY A. iriH
, The queftion was put, and it pafled in the negative, widi«^
out a divifion.
Mr. Burke moved, that an bumble addrefs be prefented
to his Majcfty, that he will be gracioufly pleafed to givq
diredions to the proper officers to lay before this Houie
copies of all a£ts of aflembly pailed in any of his Majefty'a
iflands in the Wefl-'Indies, by which the duties commonly
called the four and a half per cent, duties have been grantecl
to his Majefty. Agreed to.
He then moved, that an humble addrefs be prefented to
his Majefty, that be will be gracioufly pleafed to give di-
reftions that there be laid before this Houfe an account of
the amount of his Majefty's quit- rents in the feveral pro^
vinces of North-America.
Mr. Solicitor General oppofed the motion, as difrefpe£lful
to his Majefly, the difpofal of thefe duties being entirely
within his own power.
Lord North faid, that the money thus granted was appro-
priated to the maintenance of the dignity of the crown, and
therefore could not come properly before Parliament^
which, it was well known, had no controul over it.*
Governor Pownall faid, the motion, if agreed to, would
create another difpute with America. So far as this was
the private revenue of the crown, every body muft know
Parliament never meant to intermeddle with it, not even to
audit it. If the mover had any view to audit and controul
the revenues raifed by the American aflemblies, that was
Mrhat they had always entertained the higheft jealoyfy of,
and would open another vwy feiious difpute. Pafled in
the negative. . .
The Houfe, in a committee of fupply, having voted
47,4001. 12S. for the railing and pay of a Highland regiment
of two battalions, Sir John fVrotteJley defwed to know, if the
officers appointed to thofe two battalions were to be taken
from the half pay lift, or were to be new ones ; becaufe, if
the latter, he fhould certainly give his vote againft agreeing
with the committee in the propofed refolution.
Lord Barrin^ton replied, that he did not believe there
could be Highland officers fufficient procured from the half««
pay lift ; but as General Frazer, who is^ to be their colonel,
was in the Houfe, be could probably give the committee
bjetter information on that head.
. General Fraxer confirmed what Lord Barrington faid re*
fpeSting the want of a fufficient number of Hightand oflScers
oeing on the half-pay lift \ at^ Siv4^ lU^t he had himfclf
a; 1715. DEBATES. %n
recominended an officer who was a young man of fortune,
family^ and great abilities. He thought aU the officers
ought lo be of North-Britain. This mode of railing the
men, he infilled, would be a public faving of two-fifths
of the fevyimoncy ; for the levy-money of the two batta-
lions would not be more than three pounds or guineas a
man, while t'hat of the other regiments is five pounds or
guineas^ a man.
. General Harvey difapproved of raifing new corps, and
cxprefsly of this.
Lord NortA faid, troops could not be raifed in the ordi*
nary way, therefore he had adopted this. This mode had
been taken before, and with fuccefs ; though he did not
quite approve of it, yet he, believed there was no other.
Lord Barrington faid> he never approved of new levies ;
they were a hurt to the fervice in general, mifchievous in
their confequences, and expenfive to theftate; but if men
were not to be had in any other manner, we muft fubmittu
the neceffity of the meafure.
The Houfe next went into a committee on the indemnity
bill, and ordered it to be read a third time on the 24th.
Hon. Mr. Mar/ham gave notice, that he would, on that
day, propofe an amendment to the preamble ; for in its
prefent form it was an infult upon the Houfe, and a mockery
upon tlie nation.
The militia bill was then read a third time. Sir George
Savile offered a rider, to limit its duration to feven years.
Agreed to.
Mr. Fox attacked the bill, the framers, the advifers, and,
in (hort, every iingle obje£t which it held out, particularly
as it would be th6 means of encreafing and extending the
prerogative of the crown. In the courfe of his fpeech he
mentioned the addrefs from the firft battalion of the De«
vonlhire militia. He fuppofed they wanted to alienate the
King from the people, to imbrue their hands in the blood
of their fellow fubjeSs ; fuch men, be thought, ought not
to be trufted with arms. The Attorney General may be
ordered to profecute the perfons complained of in the ad-
drefs, and, if. wanted, they might come in to affift the law^
that y^% their ftation.
Mr. Ackland (who prefented the addrefs) faid, he thought
the honourable gentleman pointed at him. He was no ad-
venturer' or place-hunter ; he was a gentleman of indepen-
dent fortune, who voted purely in conformity with his fen-
um6nt6, without any linifter views whatever. Mea o£ ^t<^->
C c 4 ^^^'^^^
599 PARLIAMENTARY A. HTS,
perty, who bad much at fiake, who could have no intereft
Dut the public intereft, were furely the fitteft perfons to be
trufled with arms, not thofe of reduced fortunes, &c. (/;!•«
terrupted by Mr, Burh.l
Mr. Fox replied, he had a qualification which .Wji$ fuf.
ficienty and that it was the firft time he ever heard any maq
take any liberties in that Houfe on account of his fortune,
whether real or ideal ; faid, ftanding as he did, he fuppofed
he had as good a right to fpeak as any man in that Houfe,
and would not be interrupted. {^Here the Houfe interpofed^
and the altercation went no further ]
Lord North vindicated Mr. Ackland. Said, the militia,
being a conftitutional body, might with great propriety, aS'
a military body, at any time, addrefs the throne upon the
flate of public affairs, to exprefs their loyal difpofitions to
his Majefly, and promifQ any ei^ertions in fupport of the
crown.
Mr. Burke faici, he was glad the noble Lord had ipoke
out, becaufe he had now, by this declaration, given a clear
infight into his fyftem and principles of adminiftration. If
this were conftitutional and juftifiable, there was an end
of the liberties of this country ; and that however nominally
we were free, we were from this inftant, in faft, fubjeft to
military government ; for if the crown can at any time
draw forth the fuffrages and fupport of the militia (all
. ofScers appointed by the crown) that it had all the difad-
vantages of a ftanding army, and more danger attending it
from the prepofleffions in favour of a militia, and that un-
guarded confidence which their fellow-citizens placed in
them preferable to the army. He had hitherto been a
friend to the militia, but'from this time he muft look upon
them with a jealous eye ; and he thought it as hf^ for the
guards to addrefs the King in a body, as any provincial
corps of the mililia.
Mr. Moyfiy oppofed the bill, as an unneceflary extenfion
of the prerogative. He ftated the law as it ftood, indepen-
dent of the piopofed alteratioii, and argued that ev^ry rea-
fonable purpofe of a militia eftabl ifli men t being merely lo*
c;ul, was alrea,dy amply provided for by the laws in being.
The queftion being put, that the bill do pafs, the Houfe
divided, Jiyes 162; noes 26r
November 23.
The refolution the committee of fupply came to yefierday
(relative to a new corps of Highlanders) was reported, and
Oppofed by M?, Biuke and l^\i* ¥ox. They contended.
A. Ills. DEBATES.: S9J
that it woald be (addling the balf-pay lift with a heavy ex-
pence in future, and for the prefent, would have the effeft
of loading the public, to the amount of the half- pay of as
many officers as might be incorporated into the new levies.
Lord Barrington faid, that new levies were very difagrec-
able ; and, in ta£t, he did not like the meafure, thoufi;h it
was thought right by thofe in office, that were better ju^es;
imd better informed than he was. Yet he looked upoa
himfelf as accountable as if he had adually advifed the
meafure.
Lord North faid, he had been often told he was no more
than the oflenfible minifler ; he therefore might excufe him-
felf by faying, he was not prepared with his anfwer till he
had got bis inftruftions. He would not fay he direAly ad*
vifed the meafure, but was willing to declare, that, in con-
junction with the reft of the King's fervants, he had ma*
turely con^dered it, and thought it the moft eligible metlio^
of raifing men on the prefent emergency ; for he was fony
to be obliged to acquaint the Houfe, that tlie recruiting fer-
vice was very far from being fuccefsful ; and by the plan of
operations already agreed on, it was neceftary that the forces
fhould be ready ror embarkation early in the fpring.
The refolution agreed to.
The order of the day being read, for going into a com-
mittee on the Nova Scotia petition, yid the Speaker being
about to leave the chair, Mr. Burke objefted to it ; as did
alfo Mr. Derapfter and Mr. Fox. They contended, that
the Nova Scotia petition had been brought into the Houfe
by furprize, late at night ; and that the authenticity of the
iignatures of the petitioners, ftyling themfelves the fpeaker
and aftembly of the province, had not been proved ; they
infifted, that Mr. Cumberland, the agent for Nova Scotia*
iliould be called in and examined while the Speaker was ia
the chair.
This was oppofed by Lord North, Sir Gilbert Elliot, &c.
It was agreed to go into the committee, and Mr. Cumber-
land was called in. He was aiked if he knew any thing of
the petition then before the committee ; he faid he knew
nothmg of it He was fhewn the fignature of the fpeaker
i)f the adembly of Nova Scotia, and alked if he knew it ;
he replied, that he knew the gentleman's hand-writing, hav-
ing received feveral letters from him, but he did not know
that he was fpeaker of the aftembly till be was now in-
formed of it. [^fVithdrew,]
Lord NQrth moved the following refolutions:
4« PARLrAlVlEN TAltY A.ini.
Refblired, That it h the opinion of thk committee thtff
the propofition contained in th#addrefs, petition^ and me-
tnonal of the houfe of aflembly of the province of Nova
Scotia, of granting to his Majefty, in perpetuity, a duty of
t)Oundage» ad vahrem^ vtpon alt conFimodities iipported ihto
the province of Nova Scotia, hot being the produce of th6
Btitifh dominions in Europe and America, (bay fait 6x.
cepted) tiie faid duty to be difpofed of by Pariiaipenti
is fit to be accepted, and that the amount of the faid
duty (hould be eight pounds pet centum upon all fuch cota*
inodities.
Refolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that
when and as foon as any aft or afts fhall have been pafl^d by
the general aflembly of the faid province of Nova Scotia,
conformable to the foregoing refolution, and his Majefty
fliall have given his royal approbation to fuch aft or afti»
ill and every duty, tax,- and afleflment, upon any goods,
wares, or merchandize, imported into the faid province, and
which duty, tax, and afleflkient, hath been impofed and
levied within the faid province, by any aft or afts of Parlia«
ment now in force, ought to ceafe and be difcontinued ;
and that, for fo long as the aft or afts of aflembly for grant*
ing to his Majefty the faid poundage duty fliall continue in
force, no other or further duties, taxes, or aflfefllnents,
ought to be impofed «r levied by aft of Parliament, within
the faid province, except fuch duties only as it may be ex-
pedient to continue to levy, or to impofe, for the regulation
of commerce, the nett produce of the duties laft mentioned
to be carried to the account of the faid province.
Refolved, That it is the opinion of this committee, that
it will be advifeable to admit a direft importation into the
province of Nova Scotia by his Majefty's fubjefts, in- (hips
and veflcis, qualified by law, of all wines, oranges, lemons,
currants and raifins, the growth and produce of any foreign
country whatfoever, provided fuch wines, oranges, lemons,
currants and raifins, be imported direftly from the place of
their growth and produce ; and provided alfo, that the faid
commodities be not imported into any other port or place
within the faid province, except the port of Halifax.
Sir George Yonge faid, he would mention a matter which
did not feem to occur to the Houfe ; which was, that this
favourite petition from Nova Scotia contained the fame
doftrine, held the fame language, and claimed the fame
right ^s the general congrefs did ; namely, of granting their
own mon^y. The Houl6 were ftxuct ^\il\ this obfervation.
A.m5. "DEBATES. 89S
H€ defired the petition might be read, when it appeared in
totidem verbis; upon which he moved the following aniend«»
nent to the firfl refolution.
** That when the exigencies of the ftate may require any
further fuppltes from Nova Scotia, requifitions ihaU be made
in the ufual manner fornaerly praAifed in North America,
whereby the faid provinces may have an opportunity ^t
fliewing their duty and attachment to their Sovereign, and
thieir fenfe of the caufc for which fuch' requifition was made*
by which means only his Majefiy can be made acquainted
with the true fenfe of his people in that diftant country,'*
Mr* Burke feconded it ; and General Conway fuppcurteA
it ; but a negative was put upon it.
A petition of the merchants of London, fubfcribers there^
unto, in behalf of themfelves and others concerned in tl>e
commerce and filheries at Newfoundland, Nova Scotia,
Ifland of St. John's, River St. Lawrence, Coafl of Labrador^
and places adjacent, from the feveral ports of London, Li-
verpool, Weymoutl), Topfhami Limpfione, Exmouth, aad
Tinmouth.
And the faid petition was read ; fetting forth, that the
petitioners, during the prefent year, have fuffered very great
inconvenience and lofs, in carrying on their trade and mhe*
ries at Newfoundland, and places adjacent, by their ufual
refource of bread, flour, and other neceiTaries, being totalljt
interrupted, by the unhappy differences between Great Bri*
tain and her American colonies ; and that, although the pre*
lent price of corn leaves the exportation of bread and ^our
entirely open, and feems to make this application unnecef*
iary, yet as the price of both may advance, fo that the pro-
hibition may again take place, the petitioners may thereby
fuftain much lof^ and difappointment in their buiinefs, unleni
a timely and proper relief is provided by the Houfe, in cafe
of fuch exigency ; and that, as the quantity of bread, flour,
peafe, and other provifions, allowed to be exported from
certain ports in this kingdom to Newfoundland, under the
aft of the 1 4th of his prelent Majefly, will not be a fufficient
fupply to carry on the trade and fifheries while an interrup*
tion continues in their fupply from America, the petitionei!^
cannot purfue their bufinefs, unlei^ they have liberty to ex»
port, under certain limitations and rcflridions, a fufBcient
quantity of bread, flour, peafe, grout, oatmeal, and other
neceflaries ; and as confining .the export to particular per*
ibns and diftriAs has been found injurious in a general com*
mercial
296 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177S;
snercial view» the petitioners hope that the Houfe will thii^
k expedient to allow the exportation of the neceiiary articles
to be extended to any port or ports in Great Britain, where
they may be able to obtain them upon the moft reafonable
and convenient terms ; and therefore praying the Houfe to
take the premifes into conikieration, and grant fuch relief
therein as to the Houfe fliali feem meet.
Nwembir 24.
\ The order for the third reading of the indemnity bilL .
The Hon. Mr. Marjfiam moved an amendment to the
Jreamble of the bill. He obferved, that the words as they
ood at prefenty declaring that, ^^ doubts having been en-
tertained of the legality of the meafure," were an infult
upon the good fenfe of the Houfe ; for by what conftruftioa
of law. (MMcafon, was it poffible to prefume a neceflity of in*
damnifying tlie advifers of fuch meafures, while the whole
of the offence imputed to the fuppofed ofienders, was, that
the meafure was fubftantially legal, but tliat doubts had
arifen in (bme men's minds relative to its legality ? This
was a mockery, he contended, too grofs to he endured.
He hoped, therefore, for the dignity of Parliament, and the
particular refpeft due to that Houfe, that the noble Lord
who brought in the bill, [Lord North] would confent to
amend the preamble, and infert, " That the toeafure (viz.
offending the Hanoverian troops to Gibraltar and Minorca)
was not warranted by law and againfl the fpirit of this con-
ftitution."
Mr. Filmer Honeywood feconded the motion. He infilled,
how dangerous foever the introducing foreign troops into
tlie dominions of the crown of Great Britain, without the
confent of Parliament, might be, the precedent to be efta-
bliflied by the prefent-bili would be infinitely more fo.; be-
caufe it was plain it could not be intended to indemnify the
minifter, but to give the meafure itfelf the fandion of Par*-
liament.
Mr. Ambler oppofed the motion. He faid, let the bill
pafs as it is, it can do no harai, for it left the matter juft
as it found it ; but for his part, he could n<!9t pofiibly difcem
the leaft occafion for a bill of indemnity, as where there
was no crime committed, there no indemnification could be
required. .
Mr. De Grey contended, that his Majefty's advifers were
perfeftly juftified in the advice they had given. That the
io^dfuic w^kt neceiTary ; and the necefiity was a full juftifi*
catioQ
A. mS. DEBATES. 39T
cation of it. If the amendment was prefled, he thought the
bill ought to be withdrawn.
Mr. Serjeant Adair faid, it was plain beyond (|ueftion, that
if his Majefly, by his royal prerogative, could mtroduce fo*
reign troops into any part of the dominions of the Britifh
crown, he might introduce them in any number he pleafedy
and into every place he thought proper, in time of peace ai
well as war. He obferved, that whether we confidered the
law as it ftood anterior to the Revolution, or as it was then
declared, it Was evident, that even keeping a ftanding army
of natives was contrary to law, much more foreigners, when
the fpirit of the conflitution was confidered.
Mr. Morton affirmed the meafure was legal, becaufe it
was taken in a time of war.
Mr. Moyfey protefted againft the abfurdity of declaring the
law doubtful in a great conftitutional point, and leaving
thofe doubts to embrangle pofterity ; he then entered into a
difcuflion of the legality of the meafure, which he argued
was in direft violation of the bill of rights. He inMed^
from both the letter and fpifit of it, that the provifion againft
ftanding armies was co-extenfive with this empire, and dwelt
much upon the diilin£tion between foreign war and rebel*
lion.
Solicitor General^ [Mr. Wedderburne] infilled upon the
diftin6tion between garrifons and troops at large, aliedged
many^ pailages in the condufl of the legiflature to warrant
fuch diftindion, even in the frontier forts within this ifland.
He faid the check which Parliament had upon the crown in
regard to the army, was the-payment of the troops ; and, he
faid, if the meafure in quellion was fit and beneficial to the
public, it fhould be ratified, tho' it were againft law ; but,
if unfit and inexpedient, ihould be condemned, tho' the
letter of the law were with it.
Mr. Adam declared his opinion againft the legality of the
meafure.
Sir Adam Fergujfon infifted, that though this were admitted
to be a time of war, yet the calling in a foreign army would
always have wanted an indemnity ; that both the literal and
fubftantial meaning of the bill of rights clearly imported,
that no military mrce whatever had a right to be kept on
foot without the confent of Parliament. The matter was
indeed felf-evident, for it fairly amounted to this, that if
either the letter could be evaded, or the fpirit explained
away, it would follow that the law enaded nothing, and
tDS PARLIAMENTARY A. nlft
Ihat the King of Great Britain might keep any number ^
forces he pleafed on foot, without the confent, nay» agaioft
the declared fenfe of Parliament. He made fcveral remarks
on the queftion, and fome obfervations upon the mutiny
ad.
, Right Hon. T, Townjhend was very fevere on the mini*
fter ; faid he came before the Honfe in a fituation no miniiler *
ever before ventured.. He had violated the laws of his coun-
try,, and had the effrontery ta come to Pariiament, not ta
be indemniiied, but to make Parliament teftify that be had
done nothing but what was perfeftly juftifiable.
Mr. Burke faid he bad heard of angelic Parliaments, heal-
ing Parliaments, diabolical Parliaments, wonder-working
Parliaments, but never till now of a doubting Parliament,
tte aiked, did the gentlemen of the long robe, thofe of the
treafury-bench, or the very worlhipful corps calling them-
felves the King's friends, doubt ? becaufe, if they did, he
was certain there was not a fingle perfon in the Houfe bc-
lides, who doubted that the meafure was direftly. againft
law, and fubverfive of the conftitution.
Attorney General^ [Mr. Thurlow] replied to Mr. Seijeant
Adair, to explain the do£trine of non-refiftance, he had on
a farmer occafion delivered, in which he made his do£trine
fiaore palatable than it was before.
Lord North concluded the debate. He treated the argu^ »
ments on the other fide with fome pleafantry, but did not
anfwer tliem ; and obferved, that as the gentlemen on the
one fide were pofitive for the legality ; ^nd the gentlemen
on the other fide as pofitive for the illegality ; he thought
there could be no impropriety in Hating the law to be doubts
ful. ^
The Houfe divided upon the amendment. — For it 68^
againft it 130.
Adjourned to November 27.
November 27.
Mr. Alderman Oliver made a motion for an addre& to his
Majcfty. Heintroduceditby faying. That the motion which
lie had then to make, relating to the advifing and couafe]«»
Jing the King rn matters of great national concern ; an ob-
jeft'Of no fmall importance ; it had ever been confidered afi
ilich in this nation, and in all monarcliies where the intereft
of the whole employed the attention of the individual; tfnl -
muft efpecially be confidered fo by thofe (amongft whom^
be fai^y be ranked himfelf ) who were moft warmly attaphei
to the rights and dignity of the ctoy^u^ ^yA tsv^^ ^^ifcwaUY
«&A'oiiate to theprefent^lotiaicVv;
'Wife
A* 1775. DEBATES. 3da
The wifdora of our conftitution, he faid, had never at
any moment, from its firft eftabliihment, negle£led this mo(^
important province.
The great council of the nation, the hereditary coun«
fellors of the crown, the privy council, were all nameSf
he faid, with which we were conftitutionally acquainted i
aodiithat the oath appointed for the 1 aft made an]^ argun
meats from him unnecefTary to ihew the fuperlative impor<t
tance of the office.
To thefe, Mr. Oliver faid, his motion had not any refe<?
rence.
Modern times, be faid, had prefented us with novel infti-
tationSf and that we now talk familiarly of a cabinet couii*
oil. Very modern times, he faid, had brought us acquainted
with fomething farther ; and the prefent Houfe of Com-
mons would know (which preceding Houfes would not have
known) what was meant by the name of an efficient cabi-
net council.
Whether thefe were bleniifhes or Improvements in our
fyftem of government, he faid, it belonged not to him to
pronounce ; for to thefe likewife his motion had irot any
reference.
His motion, he faid, went to thofe, who, not as members
of any of the councils he had mentioned, but as fomething
ftill more efficient, have the undoubted merit or demerit of
counfelling and advifing to his Majefty the late meafures
concerning America, before thofe meafures were brought
forward in Parliament.
That there were fuch counfellors and advifers, he faid^
he took to be an undoubted faA ; and that he muft be per^
mitted to entertain his own private opinion of the veracity
and integrity of any intelligent perfon who Ihould ferioufly
and folemnly declare that he believed there were none of
this defcription.
He faid, he prefumed it would not be denied that the
unanimous opinion of an oftenfikle prime minifter, a chan-
cellor, and. a refponfible fecretary of ftate, compofing even
this cabinet efficient council, had been over- ruled by this
fomething ftill more efficient.
There was one meafure, he faid, and a meafure which he
conceived to be the moft important and uncommon tliat
ever was produced in an Englilh Parliament; the eftablifh-^
ment of ahfolute defpotifm in Canada ; the author andad«
vifer of which remains to this moment imknow^. Though
approved, and admired, adopted, a&it Udid b^osvy^'i^^^'^^^^
400 PARLIAMENTARY A. l11&^
Kameht; yet no privy counfellor, no cabinet, no efficient
cabinet counfellor, had ever yet aiTumed its merit ; but all
to whom it had been imputed had invariably difavowed it.
The unanimous complaint, he faid, of all thofe who had
leen in adrainiftration during the prefent reign, as well as
the frequent mortification and diftreffing embarraffinent,
felf-contrkdidion, tergiverfation, apparent inconfiftency,«nd
feemirtgly intended impofition on Parliament, of thofe. who
are now in adminiftration, all prove the exiftence of thefe
tinknown counfeilors.
He faid, he.did not mean to charge the prefent ad miniftra-
tion with any real inconfiftency in their opinions, or with
any intention themfelves of impofing on Parliament ; he
entirely acquitted them of both. He believed them inno-
cent of thefe charges, for they were obliged to give way to
an efficiency they could not counteraft, and in which they
had not the fmal left (hare.
Now thefe fuper- efficient counfeilors, he faid, for he
knew not what other name to give them, were the fole '
objefts of his prefent inquiry. Upon thefe, he faid, the
attention of the Houfe fhould fix ; as that of the nation has
long been fixed. Thefe, he faid, he defired to har\'e de-
clared to that Houfe authentically ; and he defired it now,
when they would enjoy the full popularity to which thofe
itieafures entitle them, which the fenfe of the nation was
faid to approve."* And therefore he moved,
That an humble addrefs be prefented by the Houfe to his
Majelly, humbly requefting that his Majefty would be gra-
cioully pleaied to impart to the Houfe who were the origi-
nal authors and advifers to his Majefty of the following
meafures, before they were propofed in Parliament, viz.
For taxing America without the confent of its affemblies,
for the purpofe of a revenue.
For extending the jurifdidlion of the courts of admiralty
and vice- admiralty.
For taking away the charter of the province of Mafitt-
chufei's Bay.
For reftraining the American fifhery.
For exempting murderers from trial in America.
For tranfporUng accufed colonifts to England for trial.
And moft cfpecially. For eftablifhing popery and def-
potifm in Canada.
Mr, Sawbridse feconded Mr. Oliver's motion, which, he
Jkid, he did in compliance with the inftruftions of his con-
&itucats, H^ faid, it was \i\s o^Vtiion^ X\\aX i^^>&»w:.^ ^^a^j
A. ills. Debates. wi
juftifiable even to afis of Pariiament, if they were iinjuft
and oppreffive. He faid, he had himfelf once been in dan-
ger, together with the late Mr. Beckford arid Mr. Townf-
end, of fufFering unjuftly by an aft off Parliament ; fot
that one gentleman in the Houfe [Mr. Ellis] had cotne pre-
pared with a firing of motions, oft which to ground a bill
df pains and penalties, although the only crime of himfelf
and his colleagues was that of petitioning the King for ^
redi-efs of grievances i but that this intended punifhment
had been over-ruled by one perfon in the cabinet^ who had
fenfe enough to forefee that if they went On with perfecu-
tion, inftead of having one Wilkes to deal with, they fliould
have five,
Mr. Stbrey^ tofe to oppofe the itlotibii. Hb faidj th6 mo-^
tion might be very well intended; fot that fome people
were apt to fufpeft too mucb^ and fome might think they
knew too Uttle ; but he thought it proceeded from a very
unneceflkry curiofity; That as to the planner and original
Contriver of the meafures, no doubt the noble Lord at the
head of the treafury muft be the perfon ; and that he could
not fee why all the other moft excellent meafures which his
Lordlhip had carried through, were not likewife inquired
after, as well as thofe mentioned in the motion ; that indeed
there was no occafiott to inquire after the author of any of
them, for that the noble Lord had himfelf avowed theni
without any inquiry.
Mr. fVilkes. The addrefs to his Majefty, which the ho-
nourable gentleman has moved this day, is fo elTentially
different from all other late addrefTes to the throne, that I
own it meets with my hearty concurrence. I think it^ Sir,
of the utmofl: cqnfequence to know the original authors and
advifers of this pernicious and calamitous war^ which has
already deluged with blood a part of America, and fpread
horror and devaflation through that whole northern conti-
nent. When fomany provinces of the empire are lofl, and
the refl: aftually engaged in a cruel, civil war, we ought not
to fit down in a criminal fupinenefs. It becomes our duty,
as the grand inquefl of the nation, to find out and punifh
the delinquents, by wbofe fatal counfels fuch evils have
been brought upon this convulled, and almofl ruined, flate.
We owe it to the people at large, and feveral of us have it
in exprefs charge from our conflituents.
We are, I fear, Sir, on the eve of an eternal, political
feparation from the weflern world, unlefs a very fpefcdy re-
conciliation fhould take place. If \li« pt^feiiX «xQ>\Aaxi^^^^.^
Vol. U. D d ^^^^
402 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177».
with fuccefs, I am fure it will do more towards a fincere,
laftiog and hearty union with America, than all the captious
and fallacious propofals of adminiftration. The Americans
will then believe we' indeed defire a reconciliation with
them, and they will at length begin to have confidence in
our counfels, when they fee the vengeance of Parliament fall
to the authors of our common calamities. The principles of
violence and injuftice, which have hitherto prevailed, they
will fee (if the Houfe is really in earned to treat) yield to
Equity and moderation; a negotiation on fair, equal, aad juft
terms, may enfue, and a general tranquillity be re-efiabli£hed
Jn an empire, which is now fliaken to its very foundations.
I really think, Sir, this is almoft the only method now
left of extricating ourfelves with honour and dignity from
0ur prefent alarming difficulties. You have voted fleets and
armies* and your forces figure greatly in the expenfive ^fti-
ifiates on your table. But the minifter knows very well they
dre not equal to the mad projeft of fubjugating the vaft con-
tinent of America ; nor do I believe the whole ftrength of
tihis kingdom adequate to fuch an attempt. After a very
bloody campaign you have conquered only one hill of Jefs
Ihan a mile's circumference, for you were fufFered to land
as friends in the only fea-port town which you pofleft.
Would the noble lord, whom his Majefty has fo lately raifed
tjo one of the highell civil offices, if he were fent on a mili-
tary fervice there, would he venture, even at the head of the
whole Britifti cavalry, to advance ten miles into the country ?
He would not, 1 am perfuaded, be fo rafli as to make the
attempt. And is any minifter weak enough to flatter him-
felf with the conquell of all North America? The Americans
will difpute every inch of territory with you ; a train of moft
unfortunate events wili probably enfue, and the power of re-
cruiting, perhaps fubfifting your forces, at fuch a diftance, be
loft. After an unavailing ftiuggle of a very few years, when
the ruined merchant and manufafturer befiege your doors,,
you will perhaps think of naming ambafladors to the general*
Qongrefs, inftead of your prelent wild and expenfive job, and
farce, of thirty commiffioners, with a falary of four thoufand
pounds each, to cry Peace, when there is no peace.
Yet, Sir, 1 think peace abfolutelyneceflary between Great
Britain and America, and therefore I approve the prefent mo-
tion, as holding out the olive branch. The Americans are •
rapidly encreaiing in population, and in the knowledge of all
the uleful arts of life, even in the falhionable art of murder-
ing our own ipecies. The Vale vjotlVi^ "gpN^\ivat vil^^tLtdSjU
A. niS. 13 fi B A T E S. 40*3
Vania declared at the bar of the other Houfe, that the pro-
vince now grew more corn tlian was fufficient for the fupply
of its inhabitants ; that they perfeftly understood the art of
making gunpowder, and had efFeSed it ; ,that mills and othet
Inftruments for faftpetrehad been erefted with fuccefs ; that
the art of cafting cannon had been carried to great perfec-
tion, as well as that of fabricating fmall arms ; and that they
were expert in fhip-building beyond the Europeans. He de-
clared, likewife, that fingle province had aftually enrolled
2^^,000 men, and had 4000 minute men ready on the firft
notice of any real danger. The authentic accounts of the
preparations for the forming, training, and difciplining
troops in the Maflachufet's Bay and in Virginia are equally-
formidable, nor are they inconfiderable in the other united
provinces. Every idea of force, therefore, on our fide muft
appear infatuation.
All wife legiflators, Sir, have calculated the llrength of a
hation from the number of its inhabitants, the laborious,
ftrong, and aftive. The population in mod parts of Ame^
rica is doubled in the courfe of nineteen or twenty years^
while that of this ifland is known rather to have decreafed
fince the year 1692. The emigrations of late from the three
kingdoms have been amazing and alarming. Our own peo-
ple have fled in multitudes from a government under "which
they ftarved. It appears, from the niceft calculations, thar
many more of our fellow- fubjefts have left this kingdom for
America, never to return — than I believe adminiftration has
hitherto fent in their pay both of our fleets and armies, nevei?
to return ; in any cdnfiderable proportion I mean of the forcd
Tent. The Americans, Sir, are a pious and religious people.
With much ardour and faccefs they follow the firft great
command of HeaVen, Be fruitful and multiply. While thejf*
are fervent in thefe devout exercifes, while the m^n continue
enterprifing and healthy,' the women kind and prolific, aH
your attempts to fubdue them by force will be ridiculoui
and unavailing, and be regarded by them ^ with fcofn an4
abhorrence. They are daily ftiengthening, and if you lofisJ
the prefent moment of reconciliation, to which this motioii'
tends, you lofe all. America may now be reclaimed or re-
gaii>ed, but cannot be fubdued.
Gentlemen,. Sir, do not feem to have confideied the afto-
riifhing difadvantages, under which we engage in this conteft
againft the combined powers of America, not only from the
diftance and naturai ftrength of the country, butlW^^^o^Kvax.
a/rd fortunate ciVcumltances of a ^oung, tV[\\i^ ^tt\Y^\^. '^v^
• D d 2 ' ^^^*
404 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
congrefs, Sir, have not the monftrous load of a debt of
above one hundred and forty millions, like our Parliament*
to ftruggle with, the very intereft of which would fwaUow
.up all their taxes ; nor a numerous and hungry band of ufe«
lefs placemen and penfioners to provide for ; nor has luxur]^
yet enervated their minds or bodies. Every ftiilling they
raife, will go to the man who fights the battles of his coun-
try. They fet out like a young heir with a noble landed
euate, unmcumbered with enormous family debts, while
we appear tlie poor, old, feeble, exhaufted, and ruined pa-
rent ; but Exhaufted and ruined by our own wickednefs and
profligacy.
Sir, I daily hear the Americans, who glow with a divine
zeal for liberty in all its branches, mifreprefented in this
tioufe, and the oAenfible minifter diligent in propagating
the moft unjuft calumnies againft them. The noble lord
with the blue ribbon told us, the liberty of the prefs was
loft throughout America, The noble Lord deceives us ia
this, as in many other things. His intelligence can never
be relied upon. The liberty of the prefs, the bulwark of
all our liberties, is loft only in Bofton, for his Lordfliip's
ininjfterial troops govern there only. The prefs is free at
Water-Town, but feven miles diftant from Bofton, at Phi-
ladelphia, Newport, Williamfburgh, and in the reft of North
America. I will give the Houfe the demonftration. Ge-
neral Gage's foolilh and contemptible proclamation againft
Samuel Adams and John Hancock, two worthy gentlemen,
jand, I dare to add, true patriots, declaring them rebels and
traitors, while the generals Wafhington, Putnam and Lee,
with the naval commanders in arms, remained by him un-
noticed, was reprinted in all the American papers. His let-
ters likewife to Governor Turnbull and otliers, in which he
inoft heroically apologized for his inert condufi, as neceflary
fur the proteftion of the army, which we were taught to
believe would look all oppofition into fubjeftion, awe the
faftious, and give fecurity to the well afFefted, thefe letters
too were faithfully copied, and I believe all the curious or-
ders he has ifllied, will be found as exa£t in the Pennfyl-
vania, Water-l'own, and other news-papers, as in the ga-
zette, publiflied by his authority at Bofton, which, is as par-
tial and falfe as that of Paris.
The honourable gentleman. Sir, who fpoke laft, fays, the
^refent addrefs is trifling, for we already know the author
andadvifer pf all the late meatuv^s againft America ; that the
noble Lord with the blue nbbauA mW ^n^nr >iawKx> ^5A\3ka&
A. nib: DEBATES. 403 •
done it. I wi(h to hear fach a declaration. WiUthe noble
Lord avow hiinfelf the ad\rifer ofonly one of the late flagitious.
iTieafures, that of eftablifhing Popery and defpotic power in'
Canada? The father of that monftrous birth I thought had^
prudently hitherto chofen to remain concealed. He likewife;
tells us, the motion now before us is coupled with nothing,'
and leads to nothing. I will tell him what it ought to lead^
to, and be coupled with. I mean an impeachment, Sir,
which I truft will follow, as the next motion of the honour-
able gentleman who fpoke firft in this debate. Whoever did
advife the meafures lately purfued, which have loft half of
oiir empire, I confider as a criminal of fo deep a dye, that
his head would be a juft facriiice to the honour of England
and the peace of America. The word Impeachment, I hope,'
will ftill ftrike terror to the ear and heart of a wicked and
arbitrary minifter, and that the nobleft and moft important
prerogative of this free people, fecured to us by our great
deliverer, King William, in the aft for the further limita-
tion of the crown, and better fecuring the rights and liberties
of the fubjeft, will Ihortly have its full effeft, that no pardoa
under thegreat feal of England be pleadable to an impeach-;
ment by the Commons in Parliament.
Lord North thanked Mr. Storer for the compliments he
had paid him ; but faid, the honourable member who made
the motion, had not confidered him as the refponfible author
of the meafures he had mentioned. He allowed that the
cabinet and efficient cabinet councils were no p^rts of the
conftitution ; but faid that the King might confult any part of
the privy counfellors he pleafed. He faid the prefent motioa
was a very ftrange one : tl^at there were feveral afts of Par-
liament concerned in it, ^f which he did not know the
author : he did not know who was the author of the aft
of Henry the Vlllth, which he fuppofed was alluded to ;
that fome of the other afts had been made in different
adminiftrations. As for Poperv, he faid, that was efta-
blifhed in Canada before, and defpotifm was not now efta-
blifhed ; for that the prefent aft might poffibly be repealed
when Canada Ihould be in a fituation fit to have aflfemblies ; ,
but that at prefent a legiflative council at the will of the
crown was the fitteft form of government for them. That
however the Canada bill came to them from the Houfe of
Lords ; that he was very willing to take upon himfelf the
guilt of fupporting it in the Houfe of Commons. But he
faid, he hardly thought any perfoh would propofe the calling -
members to account for propofiug ov ^u^^vitvvcv^j^ ^w^ \s^^-a.-
fares la Pariiament. The gentlematv v?\vo xcva^a \Jx^ y^^*^^^^.
D d a vw^vw-
4P$ PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775^ '
ipotion was certainly a great ftickler for freedom of debate,^
and freedom of opinion, and to complain therefore to another^*
^ijjunal of what happienedin this Houfe, in confequencqt
q{ ufing that freedom:, he could not think fgitable to the^
general tenor of his condufl: ; he \yas fure it was not confli-.
tutional ; that be was the more furprifed at this motion, as
the gentlemen who had moved and fupported it, Ijad always
profefled thenifelyesdifregardlefs of men, and concerned only,"
about meafures; but that this motion was calculated merely.
for perfonal chaftifement, and rebuke. He faid, he agreed
intirely in opinion with the counfellor, whoever he was,*
that might think one Wilkes fufficient ; for indeed he thought
that it was one too much in any well-regulated government;
tljough, he faid, to do him juftice, it was not eafy to find
many fuch. Upon the whole, he faid, he could not tliiuk
it proper to carry up a complaint to the King of meafures
which had received the fanftion of Parliament; but for Par*^
Jiament itfelf to do it would be ridiculous.
Hon. Temple LiittrelL I rife to give my thanks to the
*. worthy magiftrate who has offered to the Houfe this mo-
tion, becaufe I think it (as to fpirit, however incorreft its
^orm) replete with duty and true affeftion to his Sovereign,
and promifes the moll effeftual relief to the fubjeft through-
out every part of the Britifti Empire, at a time of imminent-
peril to our conftitution, our trade, and our liberties.
I own myfelf to be one of thofe perfons, who, from an
unalterable and inmoft conviftion of mind, fubfcribe to the
doftrine of thegreatMr. Locke, that " the legiflature changed
from that which was originally conftitute J by general confent,
and fundamental aSs of fociety, fuch change, however ef-
fefted, is at once an intire diflblotion of the hands of go-
vernment, and the people are at liBerty to conftitute to them*
felves anew legiflative power.*' Now, Sir, that the legifla-^
ture has been materially changed with refpeft to your Ameri-
can colonifts, from what was in the original and fundamental
conftitutions of fociety, there can be no doubt; by difpofing.
of their pro jperty contrary to their confent, and by the hoflile
and favage afts confequent thereto, the bands between
the Britifli government and the American colonies are of
courfe diflblved ; whether or not they will conftitute them-
felves a new legiflative power, time only can fliew. I very
much apprehend, that, unlefs a fpeedy and equitable plan
of conciliation be held out to them bv us, who aie the ag-
greffbrs, fuch will be the baleful end of our quarrel. But,
Sir, we are now come at l\ie pfwrve ^u\X\o\s ^itvd ^toa\oters
pftbis wifchief. Shew us the luetv, iVv'dX, \i^\.\•iN['\vv%^\^'t vcv-
A. 1175. DEBATES. 40t
terefts of their fellow- citizens, and conifidence of their Sove-^
reign, firft carried rapine, famine, and affafEnation, thro'
that devoted continent. We know that (to fpeak parlia-
mentary language, and as becomes every well-afFedted fub-"
jeft) the King can do no wrong ; we know that his Majeftjr^
from moral principle, will do no wrong* He is, perhaps, the
laft man in thefe dominions who would commit an a£t of
cruelty or injuftice againft any individual, much lefs againft
a whole community ; but. Sir, we likewife know, that inte-
grity and a guardlefs temper of heart have fubjefted ^oflrf
Kings to a mifguidance, which has proved fatal to theoi
in the end. The iive dethroned monarchs to be met
with at difFerent a?ras of the Englilh hiflory were diilin-
guifhed fcverally in their day for conjugal and paternal
afFeftion. I'hey were exenriplary models of virtue in do*
meftic life. *l'hree of them, precipitated from a throne^
were fecretly put to death, f One ignominioufly fufFercd
upon a public fcafFold ; and the J fifth, having forfeited hi<
crown, was fent into exile. Yet, not many hours preceding
the fatal, expiative fentence, each of thefe deluded poten-
tates was afllired, by his minifters and fycophants, lie could
do no wrong. It may be decent, it may be proper, though I
have ever regarded fuch aflurance as the fyren canticle whidh
has led many of our beft princes, with a full-fwelled canr
vafs, on thofe quicjcfands they would otherwife have fteercd
clear of. Sir, it is only by protefting the guilty that kings
can do wrong ; the people of England owe much to forbear-
ance, and are flow to commotion ; but when once in arms,,
and under the ftandard of conftitutional freedom, however
they may have been fometimes baffled in partial onfets>
they have, at the day of decifive battle, proved themfelves
invincible. Neither has fuch their laudable enthufiafm
been confined to the ve-eftabli(hing of original laws for the
fecurity of their poilcffions and franchifes, but has operated .
with no lefs vigour in bringing to condign punifhment thofe
traitorous perfons who had prefumed to infringe them \
nay, of this we have ftriking proofs, without recurring to
the moment of aftual revolt, and when the executive power
was compelled to pay due regard to popular difcontent.
In the reign of Richard II. the weakeft and worft of our
kings, (who, at one time, declared he would not turn out
the meaneft fcullion in his kitchen to pleafe his Parliament)
* Edward II. Richard II. Henry VI. .
+ Charles I.
$ James II.
D d 4 '^^^'^
408 PARLIAMENTARY A. ni5;
fome.gteat men, who had abufed the royal confidence, hf
carrying into execution fchemes fubverfive of public liberty,
fufFer^ as being guilty of high tre^fon*; and, at the re-
queft of liis people, this king, in the tenth year of his reign,
^pointed commiiQoners to fcrutinize and reform his cabinet
9nd houfehold. Henry VI. (impotent of mind, andobftinate
, of difpoiition as he was) in his twenty-ninth year, at the fuit
of the Commons, banifhed between twenty and thirty of his
counfellors and minions from his prefence, not to be leen foe
ft year within twelve miles of the court ; ih^ir fentence fayi.
^* that they may be duly improved." It was their Mailer's fad
piifhap, who recalled many of them at the expiration of the
term mentioned, that they were found incorrigible. Under
lienry VIII. the greatieft tyrant of the moft tyrannic r^ce
that ever grafped the fceptre of this realm, others fufFeredi
for being the chief proinoters of very iniquitous extortions
during th^ preceding reign f. Did not a Lord High Chan-
cellor X experience, in tlie time of the firft Stuart, that nei-
ther perfonal endowments, nor elevated ftation, could Ihield.
him from the punilhment due to his corrupt praflices ? Sir,
in the reign of Charles I. certain Judges § met the fevereft
areprehenfion for attempting to deliver opinions which were
deemed fubverfive of the rights of the people ; and, in the
fubfequent reign (that of Charles II.) We likewife fee in-
ftances when great men || were impeached before Parliament
for high mifdemeanors in carrying on the adminiftration of
juftice. Thefe, and other innumerable examples to be found
in your annals and cpdes of Parliament, fufficiently evince
that no official influence, no honorary dignity, could, ii^
the days of our anceftors, fcreen the infraftprs on the
lawful tranquillity of the fubj eft from punifliment, tho' they
were the neareft fervants of the crown, and illumined with
the brighteft rays of kingly favour. Sir, I am well aware
that the malverfations of government have, in the detail,
been ufually brought as a heavy charge upon the minifter
only, keeping plear of the monarch : that they h^ve been
* Earl of Suffolk, Lord Chancellor, Duke of Ireland,
archbiftiop of York, and others.
t Sir Thomas Empfon and Edmund Dudley.
X B^icon Lord Verulam.
§ Lord Keeper Finch, Judges — D.ivenpovt, Crawley,
Berkley, &c.
// Chief JuRicc Scrogs, Su ¥v«xt\cU ^o\\.V\> Svv Richard
Wc/louy Sir Thomas Jones*
A. m5. D E, B A T E S, 40Si
imputed to a De Vere ; a Le De Spencer ; a Bi(hop Laud ;
to a Father Peters; and had fuch • incendiaries, with their
bafe adherents, been timely and voluntarily given up for a
facrifice, atonement might have ftopped there; but the
Prince on the throne, fafcinated by a falfc glare of prer<K
gative, and plumed with towering notions of his divine
vicegerency, could not be prevailed upon to withdraw his
aufpices from the proper authors of public calamity, till aQ
injured and enraged people were driven to the neceffity of
bringing home the fum total of grievances to the account
of Majefty itfelf. Hence followed fociai warfare, rivers of
blood, and dethronements.
Is there an unprejudiced perfon in this Houfe, endued
with a tolerable Ihare of difcernment, who, dark as the poli-
tical horizon around us now is, cannot difcover further mif-
chief to be complotted on the bafis of thcfe tranfatlantic
piracies? Are we. Sir, to remain filent and paflive till an
army of civilized Britons, in compaft with the barbarians of
Buffia, fhall have enforced and perpetuated flavery in all our
Aiperican colonies ? Till your popifh brigades have taken
good account of the liberties of Ireland? 'Till a raountaineer-r
militia pours in upon us from the northern confines of this
ifland i 'Till the mercenaries of a German eleftorate fliall
have aflumed the guardianfliip of Portfmouth, Plymouth,
and the reft of our fea-port towns, (for they may lawfully do
fo, according to a very learned gentleman of the long robe on
the other fide of the floor*) till, i fay, all theie motley
legions fhall have united, to accompli(h the hopeful pur«
pofes of fuch zealous addrcflers as appeared in the London
Gazette of laft week?t Then fhall the Uplifted hand of
vengeapce and optlawry fall upon the fcattered, helplels
corps of petitioners throughout the feveral coMnties of Eng-
land ; Ihofe unrecifonable petitioners to a Prince of the
Brunfwick family, in behalf of Revolution principles and
lawful freedom ! Then fhall the provinces of America, like
many of thofe in Afia and Africa, be governed by Bafhaws ;
by a knout, or a bow-ftrirjg» and 2^ Parliament here at home, -
daftardly and dependent as the Ottoman Divan, maintaining
Janiflary law, fhall eftablifh the fway of an arbitrary Sultan
on the ruins of limited monarchy, and of the heft conflitu-
tion that the wifdom and ipirit of mankind ever framed for
the happinefs and glory of their fellow creatures. Sir, the
* Mr. Wedderburne.
t The Scotch addrcffes in the Gazette of 25tlio( Nom^ikv-
416 PARLIAMENTARY A, 1775*
honourable gentleman who made this motion before you
is for tracing this' tonent of iniquity to its fonrce, and it is
our duty fo to do. If there are efficient Ox fuper-efficlent mi-
nifters behind the curtain, let them no longer remain latent,
but be dragged forth tb public execration and to public jut
tice. Certain I am, that the only fabricators of the Ameri-
can war are in this ifland ; they are in this metropolis ; they
are moft of them in this Houfe. Several oblique hints and
infinuations have at different times been caft to thefe benches
near me from over the way. Some * of the 'perfons I aliude
to muft own it their duty in a double capacity ; their duty
within thefe walls, and their duty elfewhere, if they have
fubflantiai grounds for fuch charge, to produce and bring
home evidence to the criminal perforts. Are they naturally
backward at employing fpies, or filing informations ; or have
they not fuch con eft alertnefs in conipofing warranto of
commitment ? Where then are thefe enemies to their coun*
try on our fide of the Houfe ? Are they to be found among
thofe gentlemen oppofing your prefent meafures, who with-
drew from the funlhine of a court, and relinquifhet^ offices
of great honour and profit, rather than funftify fuch projefts
as their confciences revolted againft ? Are they among thofe
opulent commoners f who have a landed property, and here-
ditary confequence at ftake, equal to the beft fubjefts in Eu-
rope ? Are they to be found in thofe heroic commanders %
who fought at the head of your fleets in the laft war with a
prowefs beyond the idea of the moft romantic ages of anti*
quity ? Or muft we look for them in thofe intrepid magi-
flrates, whofe public conduft has gained them the confidence
and aiFeftion of their fellow fuhjefts \\\ the greateft city of
the whole commercial world, and who are juftly revered
throughout the moft refpeftable trading communities in all
parts of the Biitifli empire : thofe magiftratcs, to whofe"
talents, vigilance, and ftability, we now turn an eye of ex*
piring hope, as to our fheet-anchor, which can alone preferve
the labouring vefiel of the ftate from the dreadful rocks by
which it is encompaired ? Sir, there are no Catilines^ on this
fide of the Houfe. Far be it from me to charge any gentle-
man on the other fide with meriting altogether that appella-
* The Attorney and vSoh'citor General.
t Sir George Savile, Sir James Lowther, &c.
X Sir Charles Saunders, Admiral Keppei, &c.
§ Alluding to an exprefton fvx>Tv\Xi\^ tcvlnifterlal fide of
?Ae Houlk; a few evenings belove..
A. iTT5i D E B A T E S. 41ls .
tion. Many, very many, there are facing me, who aft (I
am fure) from fuch principies as they perfuade themfelves
are principles of wifdom and reftitude ; but, Sir, I will fay»
that in the line of minifters ; in that fanguinary phalanx,
at leaft, which, during ail the evolutions and revolutions
of government for feveral years paft, has remained un-
fliaken and impregnable ; in them, and. in the compofition
of their principles, I fee many Catilinarian ingredients ; aa
infatiate .thirft of riches ; a licentious purfuit after power ;
dominion to be acquired by the moft defpcrate hazards,
and the moft favage enterprizes ; by the burning of whole
towns, the habitations of men, the temples of the Divi-
nity ; innocent families to be but.qhered, and the entire
clemolition of the commonwealth at her halcyon zenith of
peace, harmony, and abundance. Whether or not amidft
the arcana of their cabinet^ they, like the Catiline junto,
pafs from lip to lip the chalice filled with human blood, as-
a pledge of fecrecy and co-operative zeal, and .to ^^ rivet.
them to cQcrpioriy^ is beft known among themfelves ; but if
one may judge by the* diabolical creeds which they have
not fcrupled to avow, fuch may well be the Ciip of their
lacranient. Men of affluent incomes they have among
them, yet, chiefly from the ftipends of office, not a patri-
monial inheritance, nor the fruits of an~ honeft induftry ;
we may, it is true, give them the credit for a few renegado-
Gonvefts of note, taken in upon the Sherwood* foreftfyilem
of policy in the days, of Robjn Hood, 'who recruited his
troops, from time to time, witli fuch needy ftragglers as
could ftand a tough bjuffeting with the arch-contrabandift
himfelf, hand to fift.
Let us now look for their military coadjutors. Thofe few
they coiild claim of high reputation, and to whofe abilities
and fpirit we might, on di future foreign war, venture to give
in cujiodium the ineftimable glories of the //v/?, thefe mini-
fters have grouped in a triumvirate, and tranfported tq
America upon a worfe than buccaneering expedition. We
know that they were, laft fefiion, amorg the deceived at
home, and have this year been already difgraced abroad ; at
this hour I am fpeaking are, perhaps, in ignominious durance,,
or dead ; if dead,- be it for their beft reputation, and th^
repofe of their departed fpirits, that thev atchieved no part
of the errand they were fcnt upon. This, Sir, puts me in
mind of another martialiji, (looking at Lord Geo. Gcrmaine),
not unfignalized in former campaigns, who being now-
^^alted to a place of the greateft public ircvijoWdW^^ s \^ .yv'^i^
412 P A R L 1 A M E N T A Bf y A. 1775.
other members better qualified than myfelf fhall undertake
the taik, I perhaps may, on a future occaiion, hold it my
^uty to give him that diilin£t and copious eulogium which
is his juft due. Yet, before I fit down, I can by na means
omit mentioning the perfon in office who, with little better
pretenfions, in my humble opinion, than the daily runner
of a faflion, (looking at Mr. Jeakinfon) having climbed
into a poft of high financial truft, the firft duty of which
h to be provident of the trcafure of his fovereign and
bis country, meafuring his claims by his own prefuroptioit
and rapacioufnefs, not by defert, exacted from the crown
a more liberal gratuity than has heretofore been given
for eminent and fplendid national fervices ; more thait
was alked by a Burleigh, a Godolphin, or an Earl of
Chatham ; and more than deemed fufficient, by a muni-
iceni and grateful nation, for an illuftrious naval con-
<|ueFor *, who is now paffing the evening of his life in
humble frugality. Tell M/i, Sir, to the people of Americla;
and tell them, that a fecretary of ftate f, retiring from, or
father defert'zng the public duty, at a conjunftiire of fome
cmbarraffment, either through indolence, apprehenfion, or
confcious infufficiency, is to be penfioned on the ftate to
the amount of 30001. per annum. I fay. Sir, relate thefc
recent marks, how admirably we Britons appropriate our
own mon^y, and the cojonifts can no longer hefitate to
make us truftees for the difpofal of theirs; efpecially if it
be to pafs through the fame hands, and for the like hal-
lowed purpofes.
However, 1 fhall ftill flatter myfelf, as a confequence of
the motion made by the honourable magiftrate, (though I
could have wHhed it in a better mode) that our gracious
Sovereign will, from the tranlcehdent goodnefs of hrs heart,
»nd refleftive wi{dom,.at length give ear to the fupplications
©f his afflifted people ; and, notwithftanding he may, from
animpuUe of lenity, prefervc the guilty minifters from the
punifhment their offences demand, he will, for the fake of
Jiumanity, and for his own fafety, remove them from his
co-uncil and prelence for ever.
Mr. Haylcy. faid, that inftruftcd as he was by his Confti-
tttenls, he could not give afiierrt vote on the occafion ; and
be thought, that as all the petitions prefented to the King had
* 5/rKdvvard Hawkc,
\rX!^
A, 1775. DEBATES* 413
been reje£ted with difJain and cont^tnpf, the pre&nt method
of an addrefs to the King from the Houfe was a proper mai*
fure.
Lord Folkejioru highly complimented the iiiember wHo made
the motion, both as a public and a private man, and (aid, that
he held a feat in that Houfe on the mod honourable terms ;
that, for his own part, he condemned all t!ie meafures which
had been taken againft America; becaufe they were adopted in
defiance, and by reprobating every principle on which we fup-
port our own liberties ; that particularly the atSl for eClablilb-
ing defpotifm and Popery in Canada, was moft obnoxious 3
for not to mention the annihilation of every fpecies of civil li-
berty which it eftablifties, it plainly declares, that in the opi-
nion of Parliament, all religions are equal ; and that die only
foundation of preference of any, is, its l)eing the more eafilf
converted into an engine of (late. But as the motion was
diredied againft a£ts of Parliament, it was impoflible to agree
to it. The movers of them arc, faidhe, fufEcicntly known*
We do not want to be informed of that. It is fulEcient at
prcfent, that Parliament has adopted them : time may come,
he hoped, would come, when we iliall know who concealed
that information ; who fupprefFed that evidence, which if
Parliament had received, it would not have adopted them.
That he fliould referve himfelf till that time, and therefore al
prefent moved the previous queftion on the motion of tl^ al-
derman, as on one which ought never to have been made,
Mr. HuJJey feconded this motion.
Mr. Tburlcw faid, that an application to the crown concern-
ing any meafures which hcd once paffcd the Parliament, was
highly improper, unconftitutional, and derogatory to their
honour; but that he was againft the previous quelVion, as lie
ihould chufe to give the motion itfclf a flat negative*
Mr. Charles Fox faid tliat he ihould be againft the motion^
becaufe it feemc'd to excufe adminiftration, and to throw the
whole guilt on fome other perfons; v^hereas he thought ad-
xniniftration equally guilty ; but he did not think that any
punifliment could at any time be conftitutionally and legally
inflided for any thing vvliiitever, vviiich (hould be done in
Parliament; this conduft there, will always be followed by
the lofe of reputation ; and that he (hould therefore move for
the order of the day, as the beft method of getting rid of the
motion.
Governor Johnflone dlfliked Mr. Fox's doftrine, that minif-
ters were only puaifliable by lofs of reputation. He <\uotod
.*^>x
4H PARLIAMENTARY.- A. 177^;
Sir Edward Coke*s autbonry, that afts of parlrattient, obtained '
by undue influence, or by mifinforraation, were nertHer a con-
ftitutional cxcufe, nor by precedent CQuld be made a flieltcr fbr
the mifconduft of rninifters. He faid, that he difiiked thefre-
^aent ufe pf the word impeachment; that impeachment was it
great power of the ftate, feldotn to be exerted, but never to be
mentioned without a probability of carry in^it irttoeffeft againft
forae great criminal. That he objeSed to the niotion, be-
caufehe thought an inquiry (hould begin by proving fonar6
fa£t. And fai(^, he hoped, that from the variety of opinions
intheHoufe, and^the treatment this motion met with, that
gentlemen would be taught how neceffary it was to aft in con-
rcrt, and confult and aft with a number of other perfons in
their motions and meafures.
Mr. Righy took this occafion, afforded by Governor John-
ftone,, to ridicule mod ftrongly the conduft of oppofition. tte
remarked their diftraftion ; and the abjeft ftate to which
every independent gentleman in the Houle muft reduce him-
felf, as a member of oppofition ; that he muft follow a leader
much more flaviflily and implicitly than in any adminiftra-
tion ; for that if any unconncfted member fliould make the •
very motion which oppofition had itfelf determined, yet if he
did it without their previous confent and permiffion, they would
themfelves turn round upon tiie honefl: gentleman as a rebel,
and treat him with more indignity and infolence, than any of
which they complained in behalf of the Americans. He re-
minded the city members, that as they profefled that they afted
in confequence of the inftruftion of their conftituents, they
ought to obey them univerfally, that there were particular
points which they had overlooked; that they ought to rub up
their memories, before they profefled fuch obedience; that he
wiftied them to obey them univerfally ; that he might have an
opportunity of negativing them univerfally.
The queftion was then put for the order of the day, which
pnfled in the negative, without a divifion.
The previous quefticn was then put, that this queftion be
now put. Aye, 156; noes 16.
The main queftion was then put. Ayes 10; noes 163.
The Houfe went into a committee of fupply.
Refolved. That 426,5041. 19s. 6d. be granted for the or*
dinary of the navy, for the fervice of the year 1776.
That 339,1511. be granted to his Majefty for buildings, re-
buildings, and repairs of (hips for the fcryice of the year
/7;6. ' . -
A. I77S- DEBATES. 415
November 28.
.The refolutions of the committee of fupply were reported ;
and after a ffaprt converfation between Captain Luttrell and
Mr. Bullcr, agreed to.
Captain Luttrell obferved, that largis fams were annually
granted for rebuildings and repairs of Ihips of war, which he
was well fatisfied were never expended. He inftanced in par^
ticular, the Dragon, which had been charged in the eftiniatc
for three facceilive yeairs^ and ftill remained in her fofmec
condition.
, Mr. Mullet faid, that it was impoffible to. tell exadly what
the repairing or rebuilding a (hip might come to; for in foixie
inilances repairs and rebuildings came as high as building a
new Ihip.
Captain iw/zr^// anfwered, hefuppofed it muftcome higlwr;
for the jfliip juft mentioned might be built for 30,000!. coia
pleat, whereas it appeared by the eflimates alluded to, that flid
had cod the public 31,0001. though (he ftill remained ufckfe^f
and for aught he could learn, would ever continue fo.
Mr. BulUr replied, that as to the comparative cbeopnefs of
rebuilding, it was not now the queftion. It might be fomc-
times better to repair, at others better to rebuild, and on other
QCcafions ill better to condemn entirely, and (ay a new
veffel on the ftoqks. And as to what the honourable gentle-
man urged, relative to the cftimates, that Ihips were included
in them year after year, it was nothing uncommon^ and might
be eafily accounted for. For inftance, a vcflcl might be
put on the eftimate this year, and when flic came to be re-
paired, &c. it. might be found expedient to lay out the money,
voted, upon fome other fliip, and fo a iocond and a third
year ; but Hill, that did not go to impeach either the pro^
pricty of the eftimate or the reality of the expenditure of the
grofs funi voted, though the application of the fevcral items
fliould be direfted to fervices of a kilid different from what it
wasfirfl: deftined. ^ .
"NtiV ember 29.
Refolutions on the Nova Scotia petition re|X)rted.
When the firft refolution was read, there was. fome general
converfation on a point of order between Lord Noi;th, Sir.
George Yonge, and Mr. Burke, as to the tiiT>e of moving-
fome propofitions which each intended. The Speaker inter-
polled.
iicrd
4i6 JP A k L I A M E PJ T A R Y A. 17-7/.'
Lofd North faid, in explanation of the rcfofution that if
might be proper the committee who would be iappointed to
bring in a bill upon the tefolutiorts, (liould be inftrufled to ex-
plain that nothing was meant to interfere with the old mode off
requifitton« That he had heard in the committee the idea of
the honourable gentleman [Sir George Yonge] as alfd*the idea
of the honourable gentleman [Governor Pownall] behind
h?m. And he owned he thought the idea of the honourable
gentleman behind him, of a provifo making it clear that nothing
was meant to red rain the crown from making r^quifitions, nor
rtie people from making grants Up6n them, might be very
proper. However the Houfe would be the heft jndge of it^
when the matter came into difcuffion at its proper time. Her
had always confidered the petition as an anfwer to the concilia-
tsory propofition he made laft year.
Sir Genge Tonge faid, it was too ridiculous to fuppofd that.
It was no anfwer to the noble Lord's conciliatory propofition i
for that propofition was add relied to thofe colonies with whom
we had differencesj but we had no differences with Nova
Scotia. In the next place he faid, this colony acknowledges
the Parliament of Great Britain td be the fupreme legiflature,
and fo did the general congrefs ; that the petitioners acknow-
fedge it to be their duty to contribute to the empire, and fa
did the congrefs. But that they likewife claimed the right
which the congrefs claimed : namely, the giving and grant-
ing their own money, and not being taxed by Parliament ;
that they claimed this as their own right, as well as all Ame-
rica, to which they defire to be *held out as a pattern ; and
they defire it on the footing of preferving to themfeves, as
. well as all America, the rights of mankind in civil fociety.
He was convinced they claimed the exercife of this right, as
the condition upon which they confented to grant that tribute
to the empire, . and of their duty and allegiance to theit
mother country. He added, that being by this petitipn con-
vinced that thefe were the genuine fentimenisof all the colo-
nies, as well thofe with whom we had diffe(;ences as thofe
with whom we had not ; and that if the exercife of this right
was granted by an explicit declaration, which was the only
road to peace, there would be an end to the war ; that he there-
fore, for the fake of peace, fhou Id conclude with the offer of
his propofition, wifliing the miniftry to accept of it, that they
themfelves might make that peace, which he fliould thank
them for, as well as every man in England -, which he was
fatished
A.\ni. DEBATES.. 417
fatisfied was in their power, if it was but in their inclination ;
but was only in their power, or in any body's, by means of
a declaration of that kind. " That when the exigencies of
the ftate may require any further fuppiies from the province
of Nova Scotia, then, according to the nrayer of laid peti-
tion of faid province, fuch requifitions mould be made, ad
have been formerly praftifed in North America, whereby
the faid province may have an opportunity of Ihewing iheii*
duty and attachment to their Sovereign, and their true fenfe
of the caufe for which fuch requifitions were made, by meani
of which alone his Majefty can be made acquainted with the
true lenfe of his people in that diftant province.'*
Mr. Fielde feconded the motion. He entirely agreed ifi -
the whole of the honourable gentleman's argument ; and
added, that the matter was of' too much confequence to be
left in ambiguity.
Governor Pownall moved the previous queftion ; in ordef,
he faid, to introduce a motion he had given notice of before*
The Houfe divided. For the previous quelUon, 89;
againft it, 12.
Governor Pownall. He was fomewhat experienced In
this matter, as to the grounds on which the people of Ame-
rica give and grant their monies. He knew, he laid, th^Ir
jealoufies on this fubjeft, and how neceflary it is to obviate
all fuch. That he had therefore on this occafion, wherdti
the Houfe are calling upon tllem to contribute, by their pwn
grants, to the common burdens of the eitipire and to th6
common defence, very attentively watched the mode in
which (in this particular cafe) the Houfe would fiame thii
bufinefs. That there may be nothing, not only to give real
grounds of objeftiori, but not even grounds of jealoufy. He
was, he faid, very apprehenfive left, when the Houfe came
to frame that part of the bill which requires the approbation
of Parliament to the juft proportion of the quota offered, it
(hould aft as referring to any principle which even fecmed
to imply, that no laws whereby grants of money are made
to the crown, were compleat, and had legal effeft until the
King and Parliament confented to them. All laws, unleft
fuch as are contrary to the laws of England, made bv the
aflfemblies, are compleat, and have legal effeft, urilefs dif^
allowed by the King. But in grants of money, as a quota»
towards the common defence ; which grants^ like all otherdj
are made to the King, the King's acceptance, accompanied
Vov II fie by
41S PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
by his thanks, is. the true mode of approbation, and I hope
that the bill will be framed accordingly*
There Was a fecond point in which he thought he cpuld
difcern the feeds of jealoufy ; that was, the fixing the quan*
turn or amount of the duty. To avoid all doubts and jealou*
fies on tliis head, and to hold it out to the other colonies as
an indifputable truth, that the Houfe do not mean that the
amount of any grant made by any houle of reprefentatives |n
America, muft originate ia the Britilh, Houfe of Commons;,
it will, he iioped, be difcriminately marked, by reciting ia
the bill that the naming the amount or rate of the duty, m
this cafe is done, at and in confequence of the exprefs re-
fetence and fpecial defire of the houfe of reprefentatives of
Nova Scotia.
/ A third point willalfo require a fcrupulous attention. He
faid, he had watched it with a jealous attention.: and that
is, that although the money granted for the common de-
fence muft lie at the difpofal of the Supreme Power which
hath the direftion of the common defence ; yet tht appii^
cation of it to that defence only^ fo as that it may never be
perverted to other purpofes, fliould lie with the grantors.
If there be left the leaft doubt on this- head, if this matter be
not made clear in the tenor of the bill, whatever Great Bri-
tain may get from Nova Scotia, it will never have a grant
from any other province.
If thefe matters ftiould ever be fettled, there will ftilj re-
main a doubt which muft be cleared up. The people of
America have got rooted in their hearts a jealoufy, that
when the Parliament have once carried the point of a fixed
and permanent revenue for the fupport of the colony govern-
ment, and a perpetual revenue for tl^e common defence,
aflemblies yvill become ufelefs, and that all intercourfe be-
tween them and the Crown will be cut off. The houfe of re-
pi'efentatives of Nova Scotia exprefs this fear and jealoufy,
and it is the univerfal apprehenfion of the whole continent
of America. A motion arifing from a very accurate and
proper attention, was made in the committee by an honour-
able friend of his, [Sir George YongeJ and had it been
placed on fuch ground as fuited the conftittition both of the
colonies and of Parliament, he would, as he then faid, have
feconded and fupported it. It was not fo framed. Tliat
fomething on that idea ought to be done, he was fully per-
fuaded. He had therefore drawn up, under the form of an
^' ' inftrudlion
A. 1775. DEBATES. 419
inftiudion to fuch committee as (hall be ordered to prepare
and bring in the intended bill, the idea which he meant to
propofe to the Houfe when that committee is appointed.
" That they do by a provifo take care that nothing in that
bill doth extend or be fuch as may be conftrued to extend
in any manner to reftrain the crown, when the exigencies of
the ftate may require any further aids from the faid province,
from making reguifitions thereto in the ufual manner, as
formerly praftifed ; nor to reftrain the people of the faid
province from giving and granting to his Majefty, by their
reprefentatives in aflembly met, further aids on fuch requi-
fition fo made ;*' by which, as they properly fay, they may
have an opportunity of (hewing their duty and attachment
to his Majefty, and their fenfe of the fervice for which fuch
requifition is made.
The firft refolution being agreed to when the fecond came
to be reported, Sir George Yonge' moved the ^following
amendment. " That it appears to this Houfe, that the
granting the powers to the colony of Nova Scotia, of pro*
. viding for the fupply of the future exigencies of governnbent,
by the mode of requifition formerly ufed in America, was the
condition on which the faid colony did make the offer of
granting the revenue in their petition exprefled.**
Mr. Burke feconded this motion. He faid it was almoft
in vain to contend, for the country gentlemen had abandon*
ed their duty, and placed an implicit confidence in the mi-
nifter. But that Ihould neither now nor hereafter prevent
him from performing his duty ; for, let the noble Lord be in -
or out of ofHce, when the meafures which he was hurrying
the nation wildly and inconfiderately into, were fatally
proved to be ruinous -and deftruftive in their confequences
to the moft important interefts of this country, his Lordfhip
might depend on it, that he would be made refponfible for
meafures he had carried into execution, under the fanflion
of fuch a confidence.
Mr. Fox fpoke in favour of the amendment. He faid, an
oppofition to it by adminiftration appeared to hiro. fcanda-
lous and difgraceful. He was aftonifhed how the Houfe
could follow and agree to fuch a folemn mockery of all
Parliamentary order and decorum.
Sir Grey Cooper faid, he was furprife^ that the gentlemen
on the other fide, when they were objefting to the refolu-
tions, never faid a fyllable relative to the very dutiful ex-
preffions contained in the petition, in which they acknow-
ledge the fupremacy of the legiflature of this country.
E c 2 '^^^
420 ^ PARLIAMENTARY A. 1175.
Mr. Anthony Bacon faid, he could venture to fpeak with
"fome confidence, a$ the matter concerned trade j and he
was convinced a bill brought in piufuanfto the reibiutions
now reported, would have the moft falutary effefts, both in
point of revenue and commerce.
It pafled in the negative.
The fecond refolution being agreed to, Mr. Burke ipro^
pofed the following amendment to the third refolution :
«* That although the terms of the refolution of this Hoiife,
of the 27th of February 1775, relative to America, fecm
literally to require, that the offer therein mentioned Ibould
be made by the governor, council, and aflembly, or general
court of any province, the true intent and meaning of the
fiime does not i*equive any thing more, in order to be accept-
ed by this Houfe, than that the faid offer be made by the
houle of reprefentatives of fuch province ; and alfo, though
the faid refolution feems to require, that the faid offer fhould
bear a proportion, according to the condition, circumftances,
and fituation of fuch province, yet th^t the true meaning of
the faid refolution doth purport, that any duties which this
Houfe fhall approve, will be accepted as a compliance with
the faid refolution, although no grounds for determining faid
proportion, be laid before this Holife ; and alfo, though the
laid refolution does feem literally to require, that the faid
provinces do make provifion for the fupport of civil govern-
ment, and the adminiftration of juflice in fuch province,
the fame doth not require, that any other provifion for civil
government fliould be made, than what fuch province hath
been accuftomed to make/*
It paffed in the negative.
Adjourned to December 1.
December 1.
Lord N-orth moved for the fecond reading of the Ameri-
can prohibitory bill. He faid, if there was any thing which
carried an air of feverity in the bill, it would be in the power
of America herfelf to prevent its operation ; for all that the
people of any colony had to do, was, in any one inflance,
to own the legiflative fupremacy of Great Britain, as the
parent and controlling ftate ; or if unwilling to accede to
any general declaration of that kind, to contribute of their
own accord towards the lupport of government, as one of
the parts of the empire entitled to the proteftion of the
Hon.
A. 1775. DEBATES. 421
Hon. Thomas Walpole. My fentiraents have been fp
rarely delivered in this Houfe, that fome gentlemen confi-
der mc as one of thofe who have lately changed theif opi-
nions refpefting Aiperica, Had I indeed formerly approved
the meafures of government towards the colonies, the iU
fuccefs which has refulted and which is$ likely to refult from
them, would now convince me of the expediency of chan^
ing the fyftem of our condud. My fentiments, however,
have been confirmed, not altered^ by ow late unfucCefsful
experiments in America; as I have conftaAtly disapproved
every aft for impofing taxes on the colonies.
Refpefting the bill now under confideratibn, I muft op- ^
pofe it) becaufe'of all our proceedings, this appears to me
the moft violent and impolitic. It begins with a formal
indifcriminate declaration of War, againft the inhabitants of
thirteen colonies, and after authorizing a general feizure
aqd confifcation of their eiFefts, it concludes with a fai)aci«>
ous nugatory provifion refpefting the attainment of peace.
Concerning the firft of thefe objefts, I muft obferve, that
were it both juftifiable and expedient to feize and confifcatc
the property of the coionifts without difcrimination, .the
time for doing it is pafl^ and the meafure become imprac«>
ticable, by that total fufpenfion of commerce which has
now taken place in America. Twelve months ago, indeed,
an attempt of this kind might have fucceeded, but its fuc«
cefs would have been ruinous to multitudes of Britifh mejv
chants, who were either immediately or remotely interefted
in the cargoes of all American veflels wherever difperfed,
and efpecially of thofe laden with corn, which the Ameri-
cans were honourably fending us in difcharge of their debts,
and which was neceflary to preferve Europe from famine.
The attempt was therefore wifely fufpended, as indeed
every other hoftile meafure ought to have been ; fince it is
impoffible for us to injure the colonies without fufFering by
the diftrefs which we may occafion them. But if it was ex-^
pedient to delay the feizure of American (hips while they
were in our power, it muft be abfuid to attempt it when the
meafure is no longer prafticable, or at leaft when our only
captures will be pnvateersy which a knowledge of this aft
will provoke the coionifts to lit out, in order to diftrefs our
Weft-India trade, and make reprifals for thofe depredations
which we arc now going to authorize ; unlefs, indeed, the
iievere penalti^ of this Ull ^ould (^s I think they will) in-^
^ E e 3 duce
422 PARLIAMENTARY A. 177*.
duce the Americans to open their ports to the (hips of other
maritime powers, and invite foreigners to fupply their wants;
a proceeding which would compel us to feizc the effedls of
the Tubjefts of other ftates, and eve,ntually involve us in a
difaftrous European war.
Refpefting the concluding part of this bill, I cannot but
think the provilion which it makes for peace is very uhfait*
dble and inadequate to the attainment of it. For the pro-
vifion cojififts only of a power in certain circumftances, to
grant particular pardons and exemptions from the penalties
of this aft. But will the ofFer of pardon fatisfy men who
acknowledge no crime, and who are confcious, not of dning
but o{ fuffering wrong f Or will the profpeft of an exemption
from commeicial leizures, without the redrefs of any griev-
ance, difarm thofe who have deliberately refufed all com-
merce until their grievances (hall be redi eflTed ? A noble
Lord, who is now become the minifter for America, has in-
deed tofd us, that nothing (hould be granted to the colonifts
until they fhall have laid down their arms and made an un-
conditional fubmiffion' to 6ur claims. Very little however
muft his Lordlhip know of human nature, or of the people
annexed to his department, if he thinks the motives which
have induced them to aflbciate, arm and fight in the defence
of their fuppofed rights, will not for ever prevent the return
of peace, unlefs more adequate andjuft provifions be made
for obtaining it.
The only benefit which has refulted from our unhappy
conteft with America, is, that by it we have been led to re-
vert to the firft principles of civil polity. After numerous
ftruggles between the powers and opinions of contending
parties, we all now agree in this fundamental truth ; that
civil government was inftituted to benefit the many who
are goveuied and not ihc few who govern; or, in other
words, that its proper end is the prefervation oi I'lfe^ freedom ^
and property ; and of thefe, the latter has, under our confti-
tution, been the objeft of peculiar care. Indeed the very
nature of property, as it is conftantly defined, requires that
the proprietor alone Ihould have a right to difpbfe of his
property^ and therefore it is that by the moft folemn provi-
fions of our government, the confent of thofe from whom
money is wanted for national fervices, is made indifpenfably
neceflarv. I have attentively confidered the peculiar rights
of this Houfe refpefting the impofition of taxes,' and alfi>
the ufaal words, forms, and >cvvcumftances of our pecuniary
A. 177?. DEBATES. 423
grants, which of thcmfelves fufEciently prove, that a righj
of granting away the property of our conftituents is totally
. diftinft and different from a right of making laws to govern
them. We are the only branch of- the legiflature that re*
prefents the people and property of Great Britain (the peers
fitting by titles derived from the crown) and therefore a
grant of this Houfe in its reprefentative capacity neceflarily
precedes the impofition of any tax on the people. This
appears from the tenor of ail the afts for railing fup-'
plies, which begin with reciting that " the Commons'*
alone, feparately and diftinftly, have firft granted the rates,
duties, and impofitions, intended to be levied, and after-
wards proceed to ena^^ by the joint authority of King,'
Lords, and Commons, that the fums which have been thus
diftinftly granted by the latter fhall be collefted according
to the intention of their feveral grants; and in the very fame
manner the legiflative aflent of Parliament was always re-
quired to authorize a coUeftion of the fubfidies formerly
granted by the clergy in convocation ; though yet, without
a previous grant from the clergy, no taxes were collefted
from them by authority of Parliament until the reign of
Charles the Second, when they obtained a Ihare in the na-r
tional reprefentation. ' And, excepting the perplexity, which
Jate fophiftical fallacies may have occafioncd on thi« fubjeft,
no privilege of our conftitution was ever better afcertained,
more generally underftood, or more confidently believed,
than the privilege which. Engliflimen for a long fucccflion
of ages have enjoyed, of being taxed only with their own
confent, or that of their reprelentatives. In virtue of this
privilege it was, that the unreprefented people of America
refufed to pay the taxes we have lately impofed on them ;
a refufal whichhas been followed by aferies of intemperate
and violent afts on our part, and by a lofs of our former
d<fminion over thirteen of the Colonies on that continent.
To recover the afieftion, the commerce, and the allegiance
of the people of tliefe colonies, fliould be the end of all our
endeavours. The meafures which we have hitherto purfucd
for this end have produced none but the moft pernicious
confequences ; it is time therefore to profit by experience,
to grow wife by misfortunes, and to try the effefts of a dif-
ferent fyftem of conduft. Enough, and I fear too much,
has been already attempted by irritation, by menace, and
by violence ; let thefe give way to milder proceedings; let
us feek for peace, not by canning war and defolatio'n.over
the countries we would govern, not by deftvo^\a^O:\^ Vv^vix^^*^
E e 4: ^*^
42* PARLIAMENTARY A. 1 175.
pJF that commerce we would regain, not by exciting irrer
j?onciIeabl$ li;^tred in thofe whofe afFedion^ we (Jiould rc-
conciliate, but by purfuing th? 4idtates of reafon, humanity,
and juftice, which are all repugnant to every part of th^
bill under cQnfideration.
Mr. Cornwall did not fee how the difpute with America
would be produftive of a war with any Europegin power.
He imagined the reverfe, becaufe Spain in particular, fcel»
. ing a fimilarity of fituation and intcreft, inftead of encou-r
raging America in afts of difobedience to the parent ftate,
would rather contribute every thing in her power to fupprefs
a revolt, which, in example, might be fatal to her own in^
terefis in the new world. He obferved, that great ftrefe, he
forefaw, would be laid on that part of the bill, which fub*
je£led all (hips, merchandize, &c. which belonged to th^
people of America, or any perfons whatever found trading
to that country, to forfeiture and confifcation ^ but, he fup*
ppfed, if the prefent ftate of that country w,ere only cohut
^cved for an inftant, the propriety of that part of the bill
inuft be felf-evident ; for as the non exportation and non-
importation agreement had unconditionally taken place the
10th of September lafft, the inevitable confequence would
be, that all trade being at an end between both countries,
a CQinmunication would be open between America and
the feveral maritime and commercial nations of Europe,
particularly France and the United Provinces. He faid,
In the prefent Hate of things, however great our native
ftrength and rcfources might be, fuch was the nature of
^ land war to be carried on in that diftant part of the
world, that we could never expeft to fucceed ; therefore
the prefent bill was neceflary, as, by reftraining their muri-^
time intercourfe with other nations, it would completely
cut ofF all their refources, and give Great Britain the ad*
vantage of exerting her ftrength on that element, where
ftie never found an equal. He concluded with afferting,
that the government of this empire was placed in the Bri-i
tifli Parliament ; that of courfc, whatever the Britifh Parlia-i
ment, in its wifdom and juftice, decreed, was, to all intents,
conftruftions, and purpofes, binding upon eyery other part
of the whole empire.
Mr. Dunning. Whatever doubts prevailed on the firft day
of the feffion, whether the fpeech from the throne predi^e4
war or peace, no one could novy be at a Ipfs to know its
genuine import. He was one who looked upon it, from the
"very beginning to be a formaY A£c\a\^.\\<ixv oInn^x ^^g^ainft aii
A. 1775. DEBATES. 42$
All^erica. H« was every day more and more faiisfied that
his fuipicions were well founded ; but now he bad nothio(
to -prevent him from pronouncing with certainty, that he
was fully juftificd in his opinion, that war, and a War of th^
nK){l unrelenting and bloody complexion, was meant to be
made on thole devoted people. He was tolerably verfed in
hiftory, nor was he ignorant of the l^aws. of his country ;
but never, within the compais of his reading or knowledge,
did he hear of fuch a rebellion as the prefent. Who, fays he,
are the rebels ? What are the principles they controvert?
Who is the Prince to whom they profefs obedience ? But^
turning from thole matters, which are only a iit fuhjeft for
ridicule, do not the eonfequences promife to be feiious ? Let
us think onlv a minute of the manner we have been treated*
How is it poffible we can proceed an inch with any, or the
Jeaft degree of propriety, without the neceflai7 information?
This, it is poffible, may be a good bill ; it may be the only
meafure left us to adopt, which may be the means of bring-
ing that country back to a proper fenfe of her duty ; but4$
there one gentleman in this Houfe, even one honourable
member on the treafury bench, who will rife and tell me,
that his fupport to the prefent bill arifes from his informa<» ^
tion, or will take upon himfelf to ftake his general fupport
of the bill upon information had, but not proper to be com«-
municated to this Houfe ? I am certain, bold and enters-
prizing, as many of them are, there is not one. I cannot
fit down without faying a wprd or two relative to the mani*
feil partiality adminiflration has lately Ihewn to a neigh*
bouiing kingdom (Ireland) which ufed not to be in very
high efteem. * No longer tyrannized over and opprcfled, Ihe
has fuddenly become a favourite ; fhe has been lately told
by the minifter there, that fiie might have Heffians or
^runfwickers, qr fhe might have none ; and that they (hould
be paid by this country on the prefent occafion. I'his fure
is a happy change. Ireland may have foreigners ; (he may
have them for nothing ; and (he is fairly told, (he (hall not
have one without the confent of Parliamept, and even if
the (hould confent, (he (hall not pay a fingle (hilling towards
tlieir maintenance or fupport. Great Britain (hall have
foreigners, whether (he will or not ; Ireland may: have them
if (he pleafes ; but even then Britain (liall pay them.
Hon. Mr. Fitzpatrick complained of the condud of ad-»
miniftration, in keeping every thing fecret; it was very
probable, if adminiftration could have kept it a fecret, that
the King's troops were defeated at Lemli^^^^v vck K'^x^'^ ^"^
426 P A R L I A M E N T A R Y A! 1775.
that they fufFered worfe than a defeat at Buftker's Hill, wc
ihould have never heard of thofe two very mortifying occur*
rentes ; nor that an army of 10,000 men, with a moft for-
'midablc train of artillery, and commanded by four generals
of reputation, have been blocked up during the whole fum*
mer by a body of people, who have been defcribed in this
Houfe, ever lince their names have been firll mentioned,
as a mere cowardly rabble. He was extremely forry to finfl
that the very framers of the bill either underftood fo little
about it, or chofe to afFeft the grofTeft ignorance as to its
true meaning, he could eafily dilcern that the bill breathed
nothing but war, and that not of an ordinary nature ;
for it was not a war that might be flifled or compromifcd
by a mixture of affertion or conceffion, but made upon
a principle of ruin to one of the parties, if not to both ;
in ihort, it was a war of mere revenge, not a war of juC.
tice.
Mr. Fox enumerated the feveral contradiftions and eva-
Ifons of the minifter iince the commencement of the prefcnt
feffion, and contrafted thefe with his Lordihip's declarations
the preceding feffion. He obferved, on the doftrine of un-
conditional ^premacy, that it went to this : Tax America
to any amount, or in any manner you pleafe ; if Ihe com-'
plains, punifh her with pains and penalties of the moft cruel
and unrelenting nature ; and if (lie refifts fuch tyranny and
barbarity, then fit down, day after day, in merciful delibera-
tion on the moft potent and expeditious way of ftarving or
maflacring the devoted viSims.
Attorney General [Mr. Thurlow] infifted no troops had
been offered to Ireland, as afferted by his learned friend
[Mr. Dunning] who, he feared, laid too much ftrefs upon
newfpaper information. Even if the faft was fo, this was
not the proper time ta debate it, nor could he perceive
what kind of relation there was between the fuppofed ofitr
made to Ireland and the bill under confideration.
Mr. Burke obferved, that the prefent was* a retrofpeftive
bill, for it infliiTved punilhments for afts thought innocent at
the time they were committed, and legalized others which
were a6\s of atrocious plunder and robbery. Our Saviour
lent his apoitles to teacii and proclaim peace to all nations ;
but the political aporties, to be fent out. by this bill^ would
be the harbingers of civil war, in all its moft: horrid and
))ic)coiis forms, accompanied by fire, fword, and famine.
Right Won, T, Tow>iJhend was fevere on the oflenfible
ijjljiidcr, who faid he was bvvl a mcx^ &\aLd.o^ <^^ ^>^\\\Qv\i'^..
A. 1175. D E B AXES. 427
all real power being lodged in the perFon of the honourable
gentleman who fat next him [Mr. Jenkinfon.]
Mr, Jenkinfon laid, he did not underftand what fuch infi-
nuations led to, if not tb miflead the Houfe ; that he had
always afted conformably to the fpiritof the conftitution,
and defied his accufers to point out a fingle inftance to the
contrary. [Here fome altercation happened.]
Mr. Rigby to order. If gentlemen thought proper to rife
to explain, it was always underftood that they were to con-
fine themfelves to bare explanation, and not, after fpeaking
to, the queftion, again enter into debate. He therefore ap«
pealed to the chair. He knew thofe kind of appeals were
very difagreeabie to the chair, and would hurt tlie Speaker
to cxercife a power fo very contrary to his gentle difpofii.
tion. [a laugh,"]
Lord John Cavendi(h and Governor Johnilone fpoke like-
wife to order.
Lord George CavendiJIi faid, the manufaftures were daily
declining in almoft every part of the kingdom, and the con-
fequenccs of this bill niuft be dreadful, as he fuppofed, be-
fore the end of the year, it would throw above 40,000 hands
out of employment.
Lord Stanley. He could not contradift the noble Lord's
general information, but he could venture to affirm, it was
not the cafe in Lanca(l)ire.
Honourable Temple Luttrel, When the noble Lord, at the
head of the treafury, firfl gave notice to the Houfe of the
bill now under confideration, he told us, it was his intention
to repeal the three feveral afts reflriftive on the trade of
New England, and certain other colonies, as infufBcient to
the purpofe he had in view. Now, if 1 have comprehended
the noble Lord aright (and I have followed him with fome
attention throughout the whole of this unfortunate bufinefs)
he has atdiiFerent times profefled to have in view two very
diftinS and xjontradiftory pui-pofes ; the one to accelerate .
a peace, the other to continue the war with energy, and a
profufe efFufion of blood. If the noble Lord would repeal
thefe iniquitous afts, and fufpend all other hoflile proceed-
ings for the prefent, he may probably lay the ground-work
of peace ; but, if the noble Lord proceeds to a more diffufe
and rigorous fe verity, he will put' an end to every ray of
hope that could be entertained of fincere or efFeftual conci-
liation. One hope,* Sir, I will however ftill entertain, and
which I am neither afraid por afhamed to avow ; it is, that
the Americans may prove fucceftfal m lUe toivoX'^^v^Tvj:,^ ^S.
in PARLIAMENTARY A- 1775.
their juft rights, ^ir, I heartily wiih them fuccefs, for tAeir
fakes who have been grolsly injured, and I wifh it for our
own* We have now before us a dreadful alternative : if the
colonifls gain the vi£lorjr, we bid farewel to the moil valu^
able branch of the;commerce of Great Britain, and we no
longer hold that pre-eminent diftinftion, which the triuoiplis
of the laft war, and our fuperior form of government, gave
OS a juft title to among the powers of Europe : if, on the
other hand, the minifterial army ihould come off with .con*
queft, to judge by your northern addrefles ; by the accommo-
dating temper of the military (fo different from former times) ;
and, above all, to judge by the complexion of our prefent
rulers; the liberties of England muft inevitably fall a facri-
fice on the American continent. But, Sir, I truft, the eyes of
Great Britain will open, ere it be too late, and that fhe will
difcover the dangerous precipice, on the brink of which ihe
at this day ftands. Sir, without any^extraordinary talent of
}>rophecy, 1 do venture to forelel, that if thefe violent mea-
ures of coercion be further perfevered in in, you will involve
every diftrift of the Britifli dominions throughout the four
quarters of the globe in the various calamities and horrors of
your unnatural civil war. Surely, Sir, the country gentle^
men, who arc fo frequently called upon from all fides ofthc
Houfe, now they are retiring into the country, muft ponder,
during the Chriflmas recefs, on the mifchiefs they have been
acceflary to, and will return to Parliament with fentiments of
contrition, and fuch fentiments as'have ufually actuated that .
valuable body of Engiiflimen. Neither will I defpair of fee-
ing this Parliament, which has borrowed the name of the
memorable Coventry parliament, and copied fo many of its
mifdeeds, take fiom it the only good precedent it can afford
(for I am not quite clear as to the meafure of excluding
lawyers). The Coventry parliament, in the fifth year of
King Henry IV. (about the month of January) having granted
to the crown very exorbitant and unjuftifiable taxes, a very
few weeks after, caufed the record, containing that grant,
to be committed to. the flames, hoping, by fuch expedient,
to prevent their offence from being difcovered to future gene-
rations. Let us. Sir, follow that bright example, and have
all the American afts pafled fince 1763, whether relative to
unlimited fovereignty, to famine, or to taxation, felefted from
your rolls, and put into the fire ; and when you fend conA.-
miffioners over to Bollon, with the olive branch of peace in
one handy I would have them, inftead of the exterminating
fword of war, carry in tUe ol\\^^ ^ cinerary ^a^c^fAted with
A. I77i' DEBATES. 429
the afhfs of thofe ddFbn£t pafchtnents ; to be a facrifice «t
the tree of liberty, where they ihould be buried^ and with
them our mutual animofities, and evety idea that might here^
^fter gro>^ up to malice^ reproach, or midruft. Such a le-*
gation, and fuch credentials, would be Worthy the wi(dom
and juftice of the Britifh legiflature, and reftore your empire
t6 its former fplendor and profperity : hut if the charafler of
Herafd be to predominate in this commiifiOn, there is not one
kaf of the olive-branch will be accepted of in America, till
you have riveted fetters on the lad hand that has nerves able
lo refift you. I know, Sir, that, for a fubjcft to refift ,the
executive power of the government over that fociety of which
he is a member, mud be deemed an aft of rebellion, unlefa
fuch executive power ftiall have committed a prior aA of rc«
bellioh againtl its creators — the people \ for then it virtually
lays itfclf under an interdift, and refiftance is not only par*
donabl^, but praifc worthy; it becomes the duty of every good
citizen; therefore the glorious founders of the Revolution in
1688 were patriots, not rebels; and the foreign princes they
brought over, and feated on the thronp of England, in pre^
ference to all hereditary claims of fucceiSon, were legal fov6-
feigns, and not ufurpers. Sir, I (hall repeatedly affirm, that
the adminiftrators of government in thisxounlry, were guilty
of an heinous aft of rebellion^ when they fent fleets on fleets,
and armies on armies, to America, to compel the colon ids to
admit of taxation. Three millions of people, three thoufand *
miles didant, without one delegate in your legiflative body,
and fo eccentral with refpeft to this Ifland, as not to be poffibly
Comprehended in virtual reprefcntation ; occupying a territory
of fuch magnitude, that were you to take from the map of
it, the extent of the Britifli ifles, the defeft would fcarcely
be vilible to the mod accurate eye. I fay, Sir, this was re-
bellion againd the fundamental conditirtion of Great Britain,
- edabliftied on reafon and the natural rights of mankind, from
the earlied ages, confirmed century after century, and reign
after reign ; it was rebellion in the fulled fenfe of the word,
againd the unalienable rights of fuch an imperial mafs. of Bri«
tifli freemen.
Such is itiy law ; fuch I hold to be thq law of common
ienfe, and (with all due deference to fome gentlemen in very
authoritative raiment over the way) fuch 1 underdand to hie
^ the efficient law of the land.
As I mentioned the inelegibility of lawyers iqto the Coven-
try parliament, and expreded my doubts upon the expediency
ot their exclufipn, it may not be acnife^ vf I ^axi^ x^ ''Jofc
430 PARLIAMENTARY' A. 1775.
Hoofe, before I fit down, on what arguments that doubt was
founded. Sir, I know there are many good and wife men of
the refpeAable profeffion of the law among us, yet I fee /wo*
very di(linguifhed and leading qharadiers of the long-robe,
who, from what has fallen under my obfervation, fince I
have had the honour of a feat here, want frequently to be put
in mind, that they are eleded into the Houfe of Commons as
reprefentatives of the fubjefl, not as retainers of the crown ;
it may perhaps be their duty in a neighbouring hall, on every
occafion, to advance the regal prerogative; but, Sir, when
they enter thefe doo^s, would it not well befit them to zQ. a%'
linbiaffed judges of the true intercfts of the people, and jea*
lous guardians over their liberties? For, however, they may
gain much profeffional applaufe in the inferior courts of
law, by the dexterity with which they can make their tongues
recede from their reafon, and delude their hearers ; to profti-
tute the enlightened faculties of the mind, and ufe the like
arts to miflead the grand inqueft of the nation (upon points too
that afFe<ft the vital principles of all good government) is both
highly dangerous and highly criminal. Sir, I (hall certainly
give my vote to rejeft this bill; without entering into any of
the articles. I abominate every principle oa which the bill is
founded.
Mr. BayUy faid, he muft tell thofe vociferous gentlemen,
who were calling out in fuch a hurry for the queftion,t that
he muft firft call on the iK>ble lord [Lord North] for his eftate
which was going to be taken from him by this bill. He faid,
if all trade and intercourfe were flopped between the Weft
Indies and North America, the plantations were at once
ruined, as is was impoflible to make either fugar or rum, or
fend it to this country without American fupplies. That as
foon as it was made lawful to take American veflels, he did
not doubt but all the fugar fhips would be made prizes of;
for as they were obliged to come home by the coaft of Ame-
rica, it would be eafy for a petty officer of a man of war to
fay thofe (hips were found hovering upon that coaft, and that
they had arms and gunpowder on board (which no merchant
fliip is without) and were going to fupply the rebels with them ;
this pretence is fufficient to condemn them, fo that every
planter's property would be confifcated and fhaced amongft
the favourites of the minifter. He faid, that proof had been .
given to the Houle, that the annual exports to North Ame-
rica»
* The attorney and foVicUot-genex^X.
f Several members had caUed fot \.>^^ ^m^^\ocv^
A. I77S- DEBATES.- 431
rica, before this fatal, war broke out, amounted to three roil*
lions and a half, of which more than three-fourths were of
our own manufadtories, and that we got great profit from the
other fourth, but that the whole of this exportation was loft,
as alfo of 6oo,oool exported in the fame manner from Scot-
land. That the Weft Indies took more than one million
one hundred thoufand pounds annually of Britifh manufac-
tory, and four hundred and feveaty thoufand pounds worth
of goods were annually exported to Africa, to carry on the
Weft India trade; all this addfid together, amounted to the
amazing fum of near (ix millions fterling; and if this bill
pafled, the whole of this immenfe export would be ftopped,
and thereby fo great a national benefit would be loft, befides
the infinite advantages we reaped on our trade and imports
from thence, and a million of nett money annually paid into
the Exchequer. Therefore he begged and implored gentlemen
would confider whether it was not madnefs in adminiftration to
rifque fo great a lofs, and put the nation to fo immenfe an
cxpence of blood and treafure, in order to eftablifti an arbi-
trary and an unjuft right in America, as taxing them without
their own confent, and which the-minifter confefTed he never
meant to make ufe of. Befides this, he would advife gentle-
men to' refle£t, whether, as foon as commiffions were given to
one cruizer to take and make prizes of all veffels which were
found on the coaft of America with arms and ammunition on
board, if this would not inevitably involve us in a war with
France and Spain, as their (hips and galleons all came home
from their American colonies by the coaft of America, and
were well provided with arms and ammunition, which would
give juft the fame pretence for feizing them as our own veffels;
even the flopping and fearching them may as reafonably be
fuppofed to give as much ofFence to them as the Spaniards gave
to us, when the war before the laft was adiually declared againft
the Spaniards, for no other r^safon than their flopping and
fearching our veffels in the Wefl Indies.
The bill being read a fecond time, agreeable to Lord North's
motion, it was moved to commit the hill for Tucfdny the 5th.
Upon which feveral gentlemen begged Lord North to poflpone
*jt a few days, to give the Wefl India merchants and planters,
who had adveitifcd a meeting of their body on this bill for
Wednefdaythe 6th, an oppohunity of laying before the
Houfeany information or evidence they might judge neceffary ;
it was moved therefore to amend the motion to Tuefday
fc'nnight, the 12th.. The Houfe divided; for the amend-
43« PARLIAKENTAlty A. 17^5.
«ncttt, 55 ; 9gditi{l it, 207. Tht main qucRion was then put ;^
the Houfc divided again ; for' it, 155; againftit, 24.
Adjourned to.Dcccmbcr 4.
December 4.
No debate.
December 5.
A petitiort of the merchants of Lancafter, was prefented tf>
the Houfe, and read ; fetting forth, that the petttioners carry
on a tonfiderable trade to the Britifh fugar colonies oh their
own accounts ; whereby the manufaftures of this kingdoni
ate encouraged, and the revenue augmented ; and that the
petitioners are alafmed ai the confequen.ces which muft hap-
pen to the faid colonies, fliould the non-exportation agree-
ment in North America be adhered to ; from whence thofe
colonies have hitherto been fupplied with very large quanti-
ties of bread, flour, rice, Indian corn, live ftock, and other
provifions, alfo lumber and various other articles abfolutely
neccffary and requilue for their fuftenance and fnpport ; and
that the petitioners are very^ apprehenfive the prcfent inter-*
Tuption of fuch fupplics will greatly diftrefs the faid colonies,
and be very prejudicial to their commerce with them; and
tlierefore praying the Houfe to take into confideration the
unhappy fituation the fugar colonies muft be in, while fuch
fupplies are witheld from them, and wherein their com-
merce may be involved, and gra^it fuch relief in the premifes
as to the Houfe {hall feem meet. Ordered to lie upon the
table. '
Lord North moved for the order of the day, to go into a
- committee on the bill for proliibititig all trade and intercourfc
with America.
Lord Folkcflonej in a fliort fpeech, obferved, that the bill,
in its prefent form, was the ftrangeft heterogeneous mixture
of war and conciliation imaginable. He faid, that the dif-
parity of numbers in the Houfe of thofe inclined to war, and
thofe who wiftied for peace, was very great, but nothing like
the difparity in the claufes of the bill; that there were thirty-
five claufes that aimed at defolation, and one only, a lingle
one, that pretended to be pacific ; that this mixture of hof-
tility, and conciliation, in the fame hill, could proceed from
no motive, but a dcfire, either of confounding the attehtion,
by the variety of the obje£ls, and diverting it from obfervihg
the difparity of the various parts, or of precluding debate,
by continuing the fubjeil matter of two bills in one; that
both tnefe reafons were indecent, and unparlbmentary. He
animadverted on tlic immenfe powers conveyed by the bill, on
it
A. 1775. DEBATES. 43i
it did not know, whom, or it did not know how many or
how few comtniffioners, or whi^thcr more than one, and ob*-
fenred, that they were left to afl upon difcreiion t nay, with-
out any rule to judge by, had power to fufpend the acft. That
if he had no other reaibn for wiffaing the Houfe to agree to
the motion in this way, there at lead would be a hill of peace
to balance one that prefcribes nothing but war, horror, and
• confifcation. His Lordftiip On thefe principles moved, that
the bill be divided into two feparate bills.
Mr. Dempjler feconded him.
Mr. Rice oppofed the motion, on the ground that the matter
of the bill, and its fubftantial operation, would anfwer the
ideas of the noble Lord as well in one bill as two.
Mr. Dempjier then enlarged upon the bill itfelf, and faid,
he wiihed much for the motion, which he knew nothing of
till it was made, not quite for the fame reafons as had teen
given by the noble Lord, for he approved of that part which
treated of the conimiffioners ; for though he thought the powers
too great, yet that great powers were undoubtedly neceffary to
the fuceefs of the commiffion ; that it greatly diftr^fled him in
his vote, when he wifhed well to one part of a bill,' and looked
upon the other part with horiior; and earneftly begged the mo*
tion might pafs, as it would relieve him from great difficulties. -
Mr. Byng obferved, ttiat the bringing ift a hill of fuch im-
portance as the prefent, looked as if adminidralibn brought the
bill in at this feafon of the year, in order to avoid the oppbfi-
tion it would probably meet from the country gentlemen. The
minifter was well aware, he faid, that the- country gentlemen
could not be kept in town this feafon of the year. He faid,
he begged to be underftood what he meant by that defcrip-
tion. What he meant by the.defcription coum#y gentlemen,
was perfons of landed property, of conftitutiotHil notions of
independencyj men who come into this* Houfe to do their
duty ; and he was fure a majority of thcfe dbuld never be pre*
vailed on to countenance a mte^fureof fo defpotic a (!omplexioil
as this.
Sir George Tonge objefled particularly t<> the difpcnfing-
power given to the commiffioners, wWd% he cOnfiii^redJ*ar
lowering Parliament, and making it appear contemptible itt
the eyes of thofe upon the continent, who already entertained
no very high idea of its free -agency, and who muft be' fatisfied^*
that it would not voluntarily fubmit to fach an indignity/
and therefore was brought to (Ubtnit'to it ly iftdiriOr
means. • ■
Vol. IL Ff Utl
4S4 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1175.
Lord North faid, fome were againft the warlike part of
the bill, others againft the pacific or conciliatory part, but
that the mo(V extraordinary reafon, with thofe who wifhcd
for peace, and fopported this motion, was the difpenfiog power
given by the pacific claufe ; for, faid be, if the motion pafles,
2ie power of difpenfing» will be pf difpenfing with the pacific,
»ad not with the iioftile bill. He thought it fairer to declare
ag^inft the bill inteto; that, he wasfure, was the ultimate wifh
of thofe who wanted to divide it in two ; and as fuch, he (bould
flrenuoufly oppofe any motion of that tendency, and of courfe^
would give his vote for having the bill remain in its prefent
fcrin.
Ijoxi George Canjendl/h fpoke for the motion, as incapable of
doing any hiarm, and gratifying fome perfons who diflilced
^nly part of the bill.
"-At five o'clock the queftioci was put on Lord Folkeftone's
motion ; and the Houfe divided ; ayes, 34 ; noes, 76.
c The Houfe then went into the committee.
Sir G^w'j^iFftijf fupported the firft claufe with great earned-
oefs. He faid, no man in his fenfes could doubt but that
America was in rebellion; nor no man could doubt, that the
prefent bill was to all intents and purpofes perfe<^y juftifiable
and. neceflary. He entered into a comparative ftate of the
nature of a war carried on againft rebels and alien enetxiies, to
fliew that the latter {hould be treated witji much greater lenity
than the former. The latter owned no obedience, no
duty, no gratitude, while the former, turning their back
vpon every moral as well as civil tye, to violence and law-
tefs rapine added moral guilt, and the blacked of all earthly
crimes.
Lord John Cavendt/h faid it was i mprobable, that the honour-
iHble gentleman had drawn up that part of the bill which
meafured opt into fuch cxadl portions the feveral parts each
admiral, captain, &c. was to ftiare in the common fpoils. But
who> ftyihts Lordihipi are thofe fppils to be taken from ? He
Will probably anfwer, from the rebellions Americans. Will
iht honofin^ie gentleman venture to adert, that all America
iiiiil rebellion ? Or, that after this bill is paded, will he venture
to. aflert, that any one man, whether refident within the
twelve united colonies -or not, will be fafe to trade, of even
proceed two leagues to fea ? No, it is plain that he confidercd
the bill only in one poiiit of view, the captures, the forfeitures,
'StA coofifcations, th^ (haring cf the prize money, and the
final condernnation.
1.: B Sir
A. 177^. DEBATES. 435
y^' Sir GeorgeSavile was equally fevere oh the bill in all its
parts. He faid, the miniftry, from a mere childilb, fottilh
Obftinacy, to hold their places, were at once rifquing their
heads, and plunging the nation into certain ruin. He faid^'
dead majorities, and thin houfes, were matters very favour-
able and encouraging to the minifter to perfevere ; but he
afliired the Hojufe, that the thread, when drawn too fine,
would at length break ; for, however they might vote or
divide within thefe walls, when our manufadures were
ruined, our refources flopped or dried up, and that we were
engaged in a French or Spanifh war, majorities would avail
the minifter very little : no majority would avail in fuch a
critical ftate of things, much lefs one already univerfally
execrated and condemned for its notorious venality, corrup*
ticn, and blind fubmiifion to the mandates of a minifter*
who is himfelf confeiled on ali bands to be far froAi being
popular.
Mr. Attorney General fpoke with preciiion, acutenefs, and
judgment, upon commerce. He moved fubftantially, though
not literally, tliat that government was in reality the milde/f^
which inflicted the moft cruel and moft frequent punim*
ments. ...
Mr. Fox^ in anfwer to what the learned gentleman had
affirmed, that no man would be fubjeAed to punilhment»
unlefs he were found guilty, replied, that it was- better not
to take the trouble of entering into any proof of innocence
under this bill ; becaufe, whether innocent or guilty, the
bloody complexion of it feemed to prejudice .teforetriali
and condemn without proof.
Governor Lyttelton was for the claufe.
Right honourable T. Tawnfiendy in allufiop to the lojng
quotations of Sir George Hay, obferved, that many learned
quotations had been made by one learned gentleman, iii the
courfe of the evening, fome Latin, fomeJEnglifti ; but all,
or moft, at leaft, very little applicable to the prefent bill.
Honourable Mr. Walp^le condemned the bill throughout,
and predided the commencement of the ruin pf the Britilh
commerce and national greatnefs would be from the very
day it ihould receive the royal ailent.
Mr. Burke faid, it was the firft time he ever beard it ailerted^
either in print or in debate, within or without thofe walls,
that open hoftilities and rebellion were the fame thing. He
faid a day would come, perhaps its arrival was not far ofiy
when the damnable doftrines of this bill would h\\ heavy
on this country, as well as on thofe who firft broached them»
and were th^ means of qtrrying theox vuto ^lLK.^>a^Cvy^«
m PARLIAMENTARY A. FJ75.
,}4v. jBajUy condemned the claufe, and faid.the bill would
^ffeft his property very materially in the Weft Indies.
Mr. iV. Leger Douglas replied, he had a confidcrable
cftate in the Weft Indies, as well as the honourable -gentle*
inan ; nevertbelefs, he thought the prefent bill a very wjfe
and faiutary meafure. He knew, hefaid, that the Weft-
India iflands had lumber fufficient to ferve.them for one, if
not two years; but, if not, he was of opinion that it was
better to fuffer temporary inconveniencies, than facfifice the
Britifti empire in America to the local intefefts of any of
its conftituent parts.
Sir George Tonge declared himfelf entirely againft the bill ;
but| at all events, he faw no objedion its moft fanguitie
friends could have to put off the committee for a day or
two, or until the Weft-India merchants, Who were, he un-
derftood, to prefent a petition, ft^ting the manner they
would be afFefted by it, were firft heard ; he therefore
moved, that the chairman do now leave the chair.
And the queftion being put, the committee divided:
ayes 34; noes 126.
Captain Luttrell offered a claufe for excepting iuch foreign
Ihips as might be drove upon the American coaft, or into
thofe harbours, by diftrefe. It; pa fled in the negative. The
claufe for making the feizutes of the property of the cap-
tors was oppofcd by Mr. Walpole, Mr. j'ownfhend, and
Sir Edward Bering. They recommended the mode that was
purfued in the year fifty-five ; (viz.) to let the public have
the benefit of the prizes, and not throw out fuch a lure to
fea-ofjcers, the younger part of Whom would be fo eager to
fcize every veflel for their owi^ benefit as might pioduce
niMch future mifchief, and that, bad as the bill -Would other-
wife be, by this claufe it would be made ten times worfe.
Captain Luttr^li faid, he had full as niuch objcSion to
the bill in grofs as any of his honourable friends near him»
becaufe he thought it replete with that barbarous coercion
which dqftroyed every chance that peace and reconciliation
would again fgbfift between this country and our American
colonies, but that be ftill thought of the prefent as he did of
every aft of Parliament, that, ifit muft pafs into a law,
(which he feared it would) there was no making it top per-
fefl:, nor carrying it too ejflTe^aally into-execution ; and there-
fore, he faid, without much hope tbat he (hould be able to
influence the opinion of any man, or a wi(h to miflead, he
fhouid endeavour to point out, tas the feveral claufes were read,
wherein tliey appeared to him infufBcient to anfwer the ends
for which they were apparently intended by the gentlemen in
A. ni5. DEBATES. 487
a^imftration, with whom he iaid^ in fome particulars he
concurred, uninfluenced by lelfifh yiews, having neither the
merits to boaft of the fea officers now employed in America^
nor a^wifh to fubjeA himfelf to the orders of the prefent
firft Lord of the admiralty ; but he hoped, ilF in the fequel
he ihould be thought to lean with partiality toward that
corps to which he had the honour ana pride to belong, that
it would ratlier be attributed to a natural failing, than to a
wifh to mifreprefent and deceive. He faid that their moft
able advocate coqid not put lb high a value on their fervices
as Parliament had lately done by conferring upon them the
moil beneficial favour in the moft flattering and honourable
manner they ever received as a corps ; and to thit he be-
lieved the alacrity with which they ferved in America was
in great meafure owing. That, confldering themfelves to
be embarked in the caufe of the Britifh Parliament, they
facrificed their inclinations at leaft, if not their humanity, at
the fhrine of gratitude, by accepting the moft hazardous,
difagreable, and unthankfnl employment the oldeft of them
.ever experienced, or that, he hoped, the youngeft would
ever be engaged in again. He faid, he knew the generqfity
of Parliament towards them was deeply imprinted in their
minds ; tiat of the Minifter and firft LorcT of the admiralty
he faw with pleafure beginnidg to dawn ; for, in the prelent
yifiance, they feemed willing to facrifice the intereft of
their dependants to what he confidered (and had not been
convinced to the contrary by what fell from his honourable
friends) was the juft claim of the captors. That he was
furprized gentlemen would wiOi to revert to that fhameful
precedent in the year 1755 ; when you made reprifals
againft France in a manner not lefs dilhonourable than you
are about to do in America, but converted the produce of
them, nominally indeed, to the ufe of the public (as gen-
tlemen now prdpofe), but, in fa£l, to the benefit of the mi-
nifter's friends, filled commiffioifers for prizes, who took
poileflioti of men of war, as well as merchant fliips, with*
out giving the fmalleft reward even tio the men who were
maimed in battle, or to the friends of tboie that were ilafn.
He faid, he would never fabfcribe to an opinion, that revenue
officers, commiffioners for prizes, or any other fet of men of
whatfoever defcription or fituation, were fo well entitled to
the feizures made under the authority of this aft of Pariia-
ment, as thofe who had rifqued their lives and health .'n a
fervice where no honour was to be got, and whei^e th€ fa-
tigue of body and anxiety of mind, he feared, would b^ but
ill 'repaid by any profit they were likely ^o reap. He ob-
439 PARLIAMENTARY A. 1775.
ferved, that thofe gentlemen who entertained liberal notions
of honour, and were at all acquainted with the duty and tern-
per^f Britifh ofEcers and feamen, could never think ferioufly
for a moment that they would facrifice either to fordid ft<ews.
If they had done fo laft war, he faid, many of them might
have become rich at the expence of the treafure of this coun-
try, but that he never knew the officer who did not feek with
more diligence the privateers and fliips of force of the ene-
my, which annoyed our trade, than for the merchantmen,
although little but hard blows was to be got by the former,
and much wealth by the latter. That he could not think fo
meanly of either fervice as to fuppofe any encouragement
neceflary to be held out to ftimulate your forces by land or
by fea to a faithful difcharge of their duty ; but it fuch re-
ward as this would be the means of carrying any aft of Parlia««
ment more effedually into execution, he thought it rather
a reafqn why the feizures fhould be the property of the cap-
tors, than why they (hould not. Hfe then replied to what
had fallen from an honourable gentleman, who had iniinu-
ated that there could be no difinclination in the officers or
feamen to ferve in America, becaufe lie had learnt from the
firji naval authority (which the captain obferved was net
always the beft) that we fhould be able to man all the fleet
deftined for the American fervice, without being put to the
difagreeable neceffity of prcffing. He faid it might be fo,
W infilled it did not follow that it was a fervice of choice ;
that we had lofl our American trade, which had put a heavier
embargo on our fhipping than Was ever done by any nation
to equip the mofl formidable naval armament, and that the
feamen being able to get no other employment, we of courfe
procured them with more facility. He concluded by ob*
ferving, that if France and Spain fhould, before the con*
ckifion of this difpute, declare war againft us, it would.be
neceflary to man a fecond fleet, to oppofe thofe two great
maritime powers, and which way that was to be done,
whether with an imprefs or without, or by what other de*
vice, he wiftied the firJi naval authority might be able to
teil, and only lamentedf he could not.
It being paft eleven o'clock, the committee adjourne4
till to-morrow.
INDEX.
INDEX to the SECOND VOLUME.
LORDSV DEBATES.
ACT. See Provifional.
Aas, lift of, paired i8i
Addrefs, motion to amend a
— — Protcft on — ib,
I joint, of both Houfefty de-
daring the American colonies in
rebellion, conference and debaite
on 341059. Protefts againft 59
Bill to reftrain the iiihery and trade of
New England, read, 69 ; com-
mitted and debated, 7 s to 96;
amended, 97 ; proteft againft, 99 $
ameildment rejected by the Cbm-
nont — — 103
•—;— Manchefter, pUy houfe, ii»,
222 J protefts againft 112, 132
— Speaker*8 warrant, on Shaftef-
bury eleftion — 169
— Earl of Chatham's, for fettling
the troQbles in America iS
«-— r— Lord CaaideB's, for repealing
Quebec a^ — 138
Boftoo, motion to withdraw the
troops from — 9
Braunfton enclofore 103 to 112
117 to 122
Broughtoii, Sir T. See Mottisfont
Buckingham Hpufe, me^gereipedl-
ing . — — 103
Commons, members of, njiotlon to
admit i.. .^ ^
Conference on joint addrefs 34
— — — — New England reftraining
bill — — 103
Divifion, miilake in. See Nfottis-
font.
• See Minority.
Davis, Mr. his evidence
Evidence againft New England
ftraining bill — -
. Grange de Lynge. See Tythe.
Jenkins, Mr. S. his evidence
Indufti y. Sec Poor.
King, his anfwer to the addrefs 4
■ petitions to — 172
Lift of a6ls pa (Ted -« iSx
Lifter, Mr. his evidence , 72
72
le-
70
70
Manchefter play- houfe bill 112
122 to 132
Mansfield, Lord, interferes in pub.
lie buiinefs 42, 44, 46, 48, 50
Memorial from new York, rejected
x6o
Minority, Lifts of 17, 33^, 63, 99,
Mottisfont, cafe of, prayed to be re-
heard — • .160 to 169
New- York, memorial from, reje6led
152 to 160
Pallifer, Sir H. hi« evidence 72
Petition from London merchants,
againft New England reftraining^
bill, offered to be prefented, 335
prefented — 69
- " ' from Qniebec 133
Petitions to the King, 17a i frona
Quebec, 172 ; frpm London mer-
chants, X74J from the Quakers^
177; from the city of London 178
Plan for fettling troubles in Ame-
rica — — 1%
Poor, houfe of induftry for
IJZtOijjr
Proteft againft addrefs — - %
. -— againft the joint addrefs, de-
claring the American colonies in
rebellion, 5^$ againft New Eng-
land reftraining bill, 99 ; againft
Mancheftef play-houfe bill *
112, 132
Provifional a£^ propofed by the Earl
of Chatham, for fettling the trou-
bles in America -*- it
Reftraining bill. See Bill.
Ryfom. Sec Tythe.
Shuldliam, Admiral, his evidence, '
Spaniardsy'their armament
141 to 145
Strangers, rtiotion to ?dmit 4
Troops at Bofton, motion to with-
draw them — 9
Tythe caufe — 63 to 68
Watfon, Mr. B, his evidence 71
COMMONS,
440
INDEX.
COMMONS DEBATES.
ADDRESS moTed, and debated
iSStoxiS
■■■ Lift of muMrity in Hie divU
fion upon — siS
— i tpoctcd agiin, and debated
a36 10*57
— |>reienled — %s^
»■ King^s anfwcr to &60
Addrcfiers centred %$$ to283» 390
America, Hon. T. Luttreirs mo-
tion to treat with — 307
■ Mr. Burke*s bill hr com-
pofing the troubles in 366
■ Mr. OliTer*s« to know
the authors of the meafures againft
39S
Army, returns d, in America, cal-
led for — %6%
■ eftiniates prcfcntcd .474
* ■ debated 3 1 3 to 3 39
■ I motion for the account of
the expcncc of, in America 387
BQIs, private, rtiblution concerning
to be revifed — 262
— re(bIations reported 34.6
Burke, Mr. his argument and bill
for compofing the troubles in Ame*
rica — — 354
— -— his motion for afts of affem*
bly in the Weft Indies 390
■■ his monon for the quit- rents
in North America — ib,
Congrefs of America, motion to treat
with — — 307
Dartmouth, petition from 273
Foreign troops, Sir James Lowther's
motion on — - 288
Fox, Mr. hfs motion for an account
of the expence of the army in
America — 387
Frafer, Genera], his new corps of
Highlanders — 390, 391
Hanover troop*, motion againft 288
Higfahuideri, new corps of 390, 392
Indemnity bill 262, 272, 396
Kng*s Speech <— 187
— — anfwer to addrefs . 258
Lancafter, petition from 43*
Land. tax, debate oil 339^0346
London, petition from 258, 395
Lowther, Sir James, ' his motion
againft employing the Hanoyertan
troops without the previous confen^
of parliament, and debate upon
288
Luttrell, Hen. T. his motion to
treat with the Americans 307
Militia, bill to call out, debated
a6i,274, 349, 391
Navy, number of feamen voted 267
Nova Scotia, petition from 230
■ ' rdblution on 35*
— ^— refolutions on 393
reported — • 415
CMiver, Mr. his motion to know the
authors of the meafures againft
America, and debate upon
39&t0 4i4
Petition from Nova Scotia
■ refolution on
refolutions on
230
35»
393
258
273
1^
■■ London —
-: Poole —
■■ Danmouth —
-«— London, &c. concerning the
Newfoundland fiftery 395
— — from Lancafter 432
Private bilis, rdblutions upon to be
revifed — 26 a
■ refolution t reported
346
Prohibitory hill, debates on
379 to 387, 410 to 438
Seamen voted — 267, 415
Trowbridge, petition from 352
END OF VOL. II.
T. Oillet, Printer, Salisbury-S<iuare.
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